Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 01:47 +0100, Tom Fitzhenry wrote: Hey guys, Are there any plans on supporting HTML 5's video tag for iPlayer? I realise there are rights issues with some programmes and that rights holders might have problems with non-DRM solutions, but presumably there are some programmes which the BBC have full rights to. This shouldn't be a problem from a rights perspective AFAIK. Currently all web based iPlayer content (including the 3200 kbps HD streams) is delivered without any DRM. RTMP is not DRM or content protection. Supporting the video tag raises the question of which codec to use, which is difficult to answer because there is no codec that every vaguely popular browser (IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Chrome) supports or plans to support in the near future. IE has been silent so far (though there are DirectShow filters for Ogg Theora/Vorbis.[0]). Firefox 3.5 will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (and cannot support H.264/AAC because of patent issues).[1] Safari will support H.264/AAC (Ogg Theora/Vorbis plugins for Quicktime exist[2]).[3] Opera will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (I don't know if they plan to purchase licenses for its users.)[4] Chrome will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis and H.264/AAC.[5] I think users of alternative browsers (Firefox, Opera, Chrome), rather than non-alternative browsers would most appreciate video to Flash. Also, H.264/AAC cannot be supported in browsers without huge financial backing (because of patent issues), where as Ogg Theora/Vorbis is believed to be patent-free. As such, to benefit most people, I think using Ogg Theora/Vorbis would be the best choice. +1 for this. Come on beeb - at least come up with a demo page so we can give it a test! Also, why didn't Dirac make it into these browsers? It would seem like a great missed opportunity... Regards, Tom Fitzhenry Regards Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
Ogg Theora is an excellent choice because it is not patent-encumbered and has good metadata support (even if search engines and local indexers like Spotlight neglect that metadata for now). However, the Ogg container could just as well contain Dirac and in my view the BBC is missing a major opportunity for goodwill by not promoting Dirac. The shortcut to this is to talk with Adobe; they quietly added Speex support to Flash 10 after all, and with Dirac support in Flash, uptake would develop very quickly. H.264/AAC uptake has been hampered by Microsoft's refusal to support it these past six years; they seem to have deathly feared the competition with Windows Media. They support it in the XBox though, and in Windows 7 which may be out this year after all. Opera doesn't need licences for Ogg Theora, Håkon Wium Lie their CTO told me a year and a half ago they vastly prefer unencumbered web standards. He repeated this when I saw him last week at a briefing on the Microsoft browser tying case. Opera is probably another opportunity to promote Dirac in mobile. There is an Ogg Theora codec pack for Windows Media Player, but I believe it cannot be pushed out silently and requires administrative rights. Sean On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Tom Fitzhenryt...@tom-fitzhenry.me.uk wrote: Hey guys, Are there any plans on supporting HTML 5's video tag for iPlayer? I realise there are rights issues with some programmes and that rights holders might have problems with non-DRM solutions, but presumably there are some programmes which the BBC have full rights to. Supporting the video tag raises the question of which codec to use, which is difficult to answer because there is no codec that every vaguely popular browser (IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Chrome) supports or plans to support in the near future. IE has been silent so far (though there are DirectShow filters for Ogg Theora/Vorbis.[0]). Firefox 3.5 will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (and cannot support H.264/AAC because of patent issues).[1] Safari will support H.264/AAC (Ogg Theora/Vorbis plugins for Quicktime exist[2]).[3] Opera will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (I don't know if they plan to purchase licenses for its users.)[4] Chrome will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis and H.264/AAC.[5] I think users of alternative browsers (Firefox, Opera, Chrome), rather than non-alternative browsers would most appreciate video to Flash. Also, H.264/AAC cannot be supported in browsers without huge financial backing (because of patent issues), where as Ogg Theora/Vorbis is believed to be patent-free. As such, to benefit most people, I think using Ogg Theora/Vorbis would be the best choice. Regards, Tom Fitzhenry PS. I don't know if this is the right place to post this. I couldn't find a better place though. 0. http://www.xiph.org/dshow/ 1. https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox 2. http://xiph.org/quicktime/ 3. http://webkit.org/blog/140/html5-media-support/ 4. http://labs.opera.com/news/2008/11/25/ 5. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10250958-2.html - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
2009/6/18 Phil Lewis backst...@linuxcentre.net This shouldn't be a problem from a rights perspective AFAIK. Currently all web based iPlayer content (including the 3200 kbps HD streams) is delivered without any DRM. RTMP is not DRM or content protection. RTMP may not be DRM, but I it's close enough to serve that purpose, and it does so rather well! Embedded ogg would lower that barrier quite significantly, something I imagine the rights-holders would not be best pleased with. -dave
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 10:29 +0100, David Johnston wrote: 2009/6/18 Phil Lewis backst...@linuxcentre.net This shouldn't be a problem from a rights perspective AFAIK. Currently all web based iPlayer content (including the 3200 kbps HD streams) is delivered without any DRM. RTMP is not DRM or content protection. RTMP may not be DRM, but I it's close enough to serve that purpose, and it does so rather well! IMHO, RTMP is not DRM at all. With RTMP there is no rights management, encryption, crypto signing, registration of players, conditional access, etc. OK, it is 'Digital' but that is about as close as it gets! The only purpose it seems to serve is its proprietary nature making it harder to interoperate with unless you are adobe who have not yet published the specs. However, adobe have aanounced in January that they will be releasing the RTMP specs this year some time. Maybe they are just running scared after all this HTML5/canvas threat to their dominance of the video streaming market. Maybe they see it as a threat also to their wanting to also dominate the digital TV market with flash et. al. ? Embedded ogg would lower that barrier quite significantly, something I imagine the rights-holders would not be best pleased with. The same rights holders probably didn't like VCRs either - or digital terrestrial tv broadcasting. :Phil -dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
2009/6/18 Phil Lewis backst...@linuxcentre.net The same rights holders probably didn't like VCRs either - or digital terrestrial tv broadcasting. They didn't. They also didn't like cable TV, MP3 and just about any other cash cow you can mention. You have to force them to get rich each time. It's really quite embarrassing. - Rob.
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
2009/6/18 Steve Carpenter steven.carpen...@warwick.ac.uk: They released the specs earlier this week. :) http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/ Is this going to make the Adobe hounds less DMCA trigger happy against tools such as rtmpdump ? Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
Thanks - I hadn't noticed they'd released it. If you read the licensing agreement first ( http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/pdf/rtmp_specification_license_1.0.pdf ) then you'll probably not want to go and download the specs. There are plenty of reasons why you'd not want to download and use this adobe spec as it allegedly makes you party to their *very* restrictive license/terms of use of their patented and proprietary protocol. I thought it sounded too good to be true - i.e. unencumbered openness! I suggest reading the other reverse engineered RTMP specs out there in the net if you are interested in implementing any rtmp client or server. Will they be less trigger happy - I guess not - now they'll just claim that you broke their licensing agreement by implementing their specs even if you never read them! ~Phil On Thu, 2009-06-18 at 12:05 +0100, Alan Pope wrote: 2009/6/18 Steve Carpenter steven.carpen...@warwick.ac.uk: They released the specs earlier this week. :) http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/ Is this going to make the Adobe hounds less DMCA trigger happy against tools such as rtmpdump ? Cheers, Al. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
Ok before delving into the subject, Tom can you put it on ideas.welcomebackstage.com. Its very much the right place to post this type of thing. I think its significantly different to this, http://ideas.welcomebackstage.com/ideatorrent/idea/6/ It also helps to have something more structured when presentation ideas to others. So support for HTML5's video tag generally sounds good to me. Yes it will upset those with IE browsers but I'm sure someone will come up with some JavaScript/DOM hack which will replace the Video tag with object in the near future. Ogg Theora support in the BBC? Well (cough!) http://welcomebackstage.com/2009/06/rdtv-episode-2/ Will we see it elsewhere like iplayer? I don't know but I would say unlikely for now. In the same way we didn't support Ogg streaming outside of research/dev project. I expect Mpeg4 h.264 will be dominate for a while to come. I personally think if the Xiph foundation can sort out the metadata problem, they will have something very interesting indeed. Cheers, Ian Forrester This e-mail is: []secret; []private; [x]public Senior Producer, BBC Backstage, BBC RD Room 1044, BBC Manchester BH, Oxford Road, M60 1SJ email: ian.forres...@bbc.co.uk work: +44 (0)1612444063 | mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Tom Fitzhenry Sent: 18 June 2009 01:48 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: [backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5 Hey guys, Are there any plans on supporting HTML 5's video tag for iPlayer? I realise there are rights issues with some programmes and that rights holders might have problems with non-DRM solutions, but presumably there are some programmes which the BBC have full rights to. Supporting the video tag raises the question of which codec to use, which is difficult to answer because there is no codec that every vaguely popular browser (IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Chrome) supports or plans to support in the near future. IE has been silent so far (though there are DirectShow filters for Ogg Theora/Vorbis.[0]). Firefox 3.5 will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (and cannot support H.264/AAC because of patent issues).[1] Safari will support H.264/AAC (Ogg Theora/Vorbis plugins for Quicktime exist[2]).[3] Opera will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (I don't know if they plan to purchase licenses for its users.)[4] Chrome will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis and H.264/AAC.[5] I think users of alternative browsers (Firefox, Opera, Chrome), rather than non-alternative browsers would most appreciate video to Flash. Also, H.264/AAC cannot be supported in browsers without huge financial backing (because of patent issues), where as Ogg Theora/Vorbis is believed to be patent-free. As such, to benefit most people, I think using Ogg Theora/Vorbis would be the best choice. Regards, Tom Fitzhenry PS. I don't know if this is the right place to post this. I couldn't find a better place though. 0. http://www.xiph.org/dshow/ 1. https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox 2. http://xiph.org/quicktime/ 3. http://webkit.org/blog/140/html5-media-support/ 4. http://labs.opera.com/news/2008/11/25/ 5. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10250958-2.html - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Ogg Theora/Vorbis and HTML5
Hey guys, Are there any plans on supporting HTML 5's video tag for iPlayer? I realise there are rights issues with some programmes and that rights holders might have problems with non-DRM solutions, but presumably there are some programmes which the BBC have full rights to. Supporting the video tag raises the question of which codec to use, which is difficult to answer because there is no codec that every vaguely popular browser (IE, Firefox, Safari, Opera, Chrome) supports or plans to support in the near future. IE has been silent so far (though there are DirectShow filters for Ogg Theora/Vorbis.[0]). Firefox 3.5 will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (and cannot support H.264/AAC because of patent issues).[1] Safari will support H.264/AAC (Ogg Theora/Vorbis plugins for Quicktime exist[2]).[3] Opera will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis (I don't know if they plan to purchase licenses for its users.)[4] Chrome will support Ogg Theora/Vorbis and H.264/AAC.[5] I think users of alternative browsers (Firefox, Opera, Chrome), rather than non-alternative browsers would most appreciate video to Flash. Also, H.264/AAC cannot be supported in browsers without huge financial backing (because of patent issues), where as Ogg Theora/Vorbis is believed to be patent-free. As such, to benefit most people, I think using Ogg Theora/Vorbis would be the best choice. Regards, Tom Fitzhenry PS. I don't know if this is the right place to post this. I couldn't find a better place though. 0. http://www.xiph.org/dshow/ 1. https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_audio_and_video_in_Firefox 2. http://xiph.org/quicktime/ 3. http://webkit.org/blog/140/html5-media-support/ 4. http://labs.opera.com/news/2008/11/25/ 5. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10250958-2.html - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
