RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
At 15:16 +0100 14/6/06, Kim Plowright wrote: Quick general recap - sorry, have only just managed to dip in to the list again, - yep - people here are aware of the accessibility requirements under the DDA, and there's been some excellent internal training and awareness run which covered learning disabilities along with more the standard visual impairment issues. - http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/index.html is an excellent exemplar of reworking of content, thanks. I'll pimp it round a few people here, if that's OK? [...] I like it: looks circa 1993 or 1994 weblike. - Random bonus link: http://www.webcredible.co.uk/user-friendly-resources/web-accessibility/u k-website-legal-requirements.shtml Good on what the DDA means for sites. I have made the URL more accessible:-) http://tinyurl.co.uk/boqf Can I add http://www.mrswebsolutions.com/web-design-company-accessibility.php and tangentially http://www.jimfitzpatrickmp.co.uk/access.htm (a website for a local MP). - Might it be a plan to put the call to action around WGAC guidelines up on the web and gather responses there? I'm sure various of us here would happily point people at it? None of the BBC staff on the list can vouch officially on behalf of the organisation as a whole on this, sadly. We don't have the right hats. - in all of these things... Remember the BBC speed rule. Change doesn't always happen quickly; and that's not for want of people inside the organisation that do care and 'get it'. k You said it! Welcome to the Club. Gordo -- Think Feynman/ http://pobox.com/~gordo/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]/// - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Matthew, The Disability Equality Duty will apply, from December 2006, to the BBC , Channel 4 and the Welsh Fourth Channel (S4C). for more: http://www.drc-gb.org/employers_and_service_provider/ disability_equality_duty.aspx The Disability Equality Duty for the public sector comes into effect in December 2006. Successful implementation of this duty is essential if we are to make disability equality a reality. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 12 Jun 2006, at 23:31, Matthew Somerville wrote: Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: the application I am describing, promoting and developing benefits people with a learning disability so your quote may be relevant: not for profit playing of sound recordings and to help visually impaired people. Sadly, the latter only applies to printed material, normally on a one- to-one basis. The Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act 2002 lets people with a visual impairment to make their own accessible versions of printed copyright material, and allows schools and not- for-profit bodies to make multiple copies for use by people with visual impairment. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3899685.stm The Act is here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020033.htm ATB, Matthew - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: The Disability Equality Duty will apply, from December 2006, to the BBC , Channel 4 and the Welsh Fourth Channel (S4C). Right, but that's irrelevant to my point. That simply means that those organisations have to put the effort in to promoting disability equality, it has nothing to do with when you can legally make copies of stuff without infringing someone's copyright. I have actually just gone back and read the definition of literary and artistic works, and I'd think a website (and indeed its photographs) were actually covered by the C(VIP)A, contrary to what Bill Thompson wrote below, which would mean that you could make a more accessible website for visually impaired people, as long as that was all you were doing and you were a not-for-profit body or an educational establishment. Obviously, IANAL. ATB, Matthew On 12 Jun 2006, at 23:31, Matthew Somerville wrote: Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: the application I am describing, promoting and developing benefits people with a learning disability so your quote may be relevant: not for profit playing of sound recordings and to help visually impaired people. Sadly, the latter only applies to printed material, normally on a one-to-one basis. The Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act 2002 lets people with a visual impairment to make their own accessible versions of printed copyright material, and allows schools and not-for-profit bodies to make multiple copies for use by people with visual impairment. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3899685.stm The Act is here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020033.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: given the BBC's remit might this mean they need to ensure that they have copyright clearance, if they need it? Sorry, I don't understand. The whole point of the Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act is that it enables (some) people to make accessible versions of (some) copyright material for visually impaired people without needing to clear it with the copyright holder, whoever they are. So who would the BBC need to ensure they have copyright clearance with, and what for? ATB, Matthew - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC's stock image usage - bunny something or another. The Beeb's news site used to get laughed at in the railway world because they nearly always used a picture of an old obsolete commuter train from the south of England. Even if they were covering the introduction of new high speed trains to Scotland. I think they've had enough complaints over the years to wean them off using that image recently. I assume other subjects have equally amusing stock images for those in the know. Jim'll - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
On the BBC News site, you cantell which images are BBC sourced, and which are agency sourced by the presence or absence of a small credit on the image itself. For example, on this story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5074164.stm, the top image is uncredited which should be BBC sourced, whilst the bottom image (of Sir Ian Blair) has "AFP" in the bottom right corner which (I presume as I don't work for BBC News), is the AFP agency. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 12 June 2006 23:55To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? I believe the majority of the images on the News site arent taken by the BBC themselves in other words, they dont have a team of roving photographers dispatched to news story locations. Many of them come from picture agencies such as the PA, AFP, Getty Images and the AP to name but a few, where the BBC would pay a licence fee to use it on line and I am sure the agreements in place come with many strings attached. I think the other sources of images on the BBCs site are either grabs from footage or something else, or images submitted by the general public. And then theres the slightly naff stock photography they use I think the Technology section has to be one of the worst offenders at this; how many times have I seen that hand on the mouse, that man at that old computer tilted at an angle or close up of the warning labels on a keyboard wire at the back of a computer. Or, whenever theres something legal thats ongoing or doesnt have any relevant images, out comes the generic photoshopped picture of the justice scales. In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBCs stock image usage bunny something or another. Like Graham said, placing these images in a feed wouldnt necessarily be helpful at all, especially with the generic stock images. - C From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme MulvaneySent: 09 June 2006 20:17To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re-distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How doesa picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics?About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images.http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user stylesheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present itwould be great if a feed could provide something similar.cheersJonathan Chetwynd** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm -Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html .Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBCs stock image usage bunny something or another. There is the rather fantastic "Am I Abstract Or Not"... http://amiabstractornot.highlyillogical.org/ J Jason Cartwright Client Side Developer - Content Management Culture - New Media Technology E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T: 0208 00 85151 M: 0797 65 00729 A: BC4C5 29, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London, W12 7TP Personal site: www.jasoncartwright.com "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies" ~ Groucho Marx From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 12 June 2006 23:55To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? I believe the majority of the images on the News site arent taken by the BBC themselves in other words, they dont have a team of roving photographers dispatched to news story locations. Many of them come from picture agencies such as the PA, AFP, Getty Images and the AP to name but a few, where the BBC would pay a licence fee to use it on line and I am sure the agreements in place come with many strings attached. I think the other sources of images on the BBCs site are either grabs from footage or something else, or images submitted by the general public. And then theres the slightly naff stock photography they use I think the Technology section has to be one of the worst offenders at this; how many times have I seen that hand on the mouse, that man at that old computer tilted at an angle or close up of the warning labels on a keyboard wire at the back of a computer. Or, whenever theres something legal thats ongoing or doesnt have any relevant images, out comes the generic photoshopped picture of the justice scales. In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBCs stock image usage bunny something or another. Like Graham said, placing these images in a feed wouldnt necessarily be helpful at all, especially with the generic stock images. - C From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme MulvaneySent: 09 June 2006 20:17To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukSubject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re-distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How doesa picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics?About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images.http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user stylesheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present itwould be great if a feed could provide something similar.cheersJonathan Chetwynd** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm -Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html .Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
a few correspondents have mentioned the use of stock photographs. People with Learning Disabilities benefit from consistency and many learn an alphabet of images. Some start with photographs of concrete objects and then move on to symbol libraries. A screengrab of how the bbc news homepage can already be transformed using CSS is here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png with a brief description of the means and intention here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/hints.html an example of a news website using symbols is here: http://www.symbolworld.org/eLive/2006/jun06/index.htm these stories would obviously benefit by the addition of photographs, probably thumbnails linked to larger offsite originals as per google images? At the time of the twin towers, I published a weekly news magazine that was somewhat similar. However this niche market would now benefit from an online presence. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:46, J.P.Knight wrote: On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC's stock image usage - bunny something or another. The Beeb's news site used to get laughed at in the railway world because they nearly always used a picture of an old obsolete commuter train from the south of England. Even if they were covering the introduction of new high speed trains to Scotland. I think they've had enough complaints over the years to wean them off using that image recently. I assume other subjects have equally amusing stock images for those in the know. Jim'll - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Jason, that is mad and fantastic.. Text in a large font for a similar area of screen estate may be equally abstract... Police 'stormed in like burglars' we may know where, but the photo of M below says far more than the text, but best is both ~: regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:47, Jason Cartwright wrote: In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC’s stock image usage – bunny something or another. There is the rather fantastic Am I Abstract Or Not... http://amiabstractornot.highlyillogical.org/ J Jason Cartwright Client Side Developer - Content Management Culture - New Media Technology E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T: 0208 00 85151 M: 0797 65 00729 A: BC4 C5 29, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London, W12 7TP Personal site: www.jasoncartwright.com Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies ~ Groucho Marx From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 June 2006 23:55 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? I believe the majority of the images on the News site aren’t taken by the BBC themselves – in other words, they don’t have a team of roving photographers dispatched to news story locations. Many of them come from picture agencies such as the PA, AFP, Getty Images and the AP to name but a few, where the BBC would pay a licence fee to use it on line – and I am sure the agreements in place come with many strings attached. I think the other sources of images on the BBC’s site are either grabs from footage or something else, or images submitted by the general public. And then there’s the slightly naff stock photography they use – I think the Technology section has to be one of the worst offenders at this; how many times have I seen that hand on the mouse, that man at that old computer tilted at an angle or close up of the warning labels on a keyboard wire at the back of a computer. Or, whenever there’s something legal that’s ongoing or doesn’t have any relevant images, out comes the generic photoshopped picture of the justice scales. In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC’s stock image usage – bunny something or another. Like Graham said, placing these images in a feed wouldn’t necessarily be helpful at all, especially with the generic stock images. - C From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Mulvaney Sent: 09 June 2006 20:17 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re- distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How does a picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics? About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images. http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user style sheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present it would be great if a feed could provide something similar. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd ** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive:http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Matthew, sorry was replying to DED rather than CA would that be double indemnity ~: cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:20, Matthew Somerville wrote: Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: given the BBC's remit might this mean they need to ensure that they have copyright clearance, if they need it? -- The Disability Equality Duty will apply, from December 2006, to the BBC , Channel 4 and the Welsh Fourth Channel (S4C). Right, but that's irrelevant to my point. That simply means that those organisations have to put the effort in to promoting disability equality, it has nothing to do with when you can legally make copies of stuff without infringing someone's copyright. -- Sorry, I don't understand. The whole point of the Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act is that it enables (some) people to make accessible versions of (some) copyright material for visually impaired people without needing to clear it with the copyright holder, whoever they are. So who would the BBC need to ensure they have copyright clearance with, and what for? ATB, Matthew - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Hi Guys, I am always interested in the copyright issues that arrive in this discussion from time to time. Regarding the BBC, has anyone thought to ask their lawyers to simply put a clause in to their own license contract agreement? At least then one would be able to make informed decisions based on the cost of using such images or any other copyrighted works in this area. I would suggest that the BBC also works in the commercial world in this respect, and I cannot see any reason why, as an example, Associated Press would take the BBC to court and win over a case connected with equality or disability. If the BBC would like to use un-copyrighted material, then I am sure that the public can help. or that they themselves have enough strength to make it happen the way that they wish. Please can someone call the BBC legal department and ask if this is possible, otherwise we will be going around in circles again meanwhile holding back creativity for the sake of legal insanity. Regards Richard Edwards On 13 Jun 2006, at 10:24, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: Matthew, sorry was replying to DED rather than CA would that be double indemnity ~: cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:20, Matthew Somerville wrote: Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: given the BBC's remit might this mean they need to ensure that they have copyright clearance, if they need it? -- The Disability Equality Duty will apply, from December 2006, to the BBC , Channel 4 and the Welsh Fourth Channel (S4C). Right, but that's irrelevant to my point. That simply means that those organisations have to put the effort in to promoting disability equality, it has nothing to do with when you can legally make copies of stuff without infringing someone's copyright. -- Sorry, I don't understand. The whole point of the Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act is that it enables (some) people to make accessible versions of (some) copyright material for visually impaired people without needing to clear it with the copyright holder, whoever they are. So who would the BBC need to ensure they have copyright clearance with, and what for? ATB, Matthew - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
The symbolworld site uses a system of graphics called Widgit Rebus Symbols, are they proprietry or is there an independent body responsible for standardising new symbols ? Are there licensing issues attached to using symbols to represent text ?On 6/13/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a few correspondents have mentioned the use of stock photographs.People with Learning Disabilities benefit from consistency and many learn an alphabet of images. Some start with photographs of concreteobjects and then move on to symbol libraries.A screengrab of how the bbc news homepage can already be transformedusing CSS is here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.pngwith a brief description of the means and intention here:http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/hints.html an example of a news website using symbols is here:http://www.symbolworld.org/eLive/2006/jun06/index.htmthese stories would obviously benefit by the addition of photographs, probably thumbnails linked to larger offsite originals as per googleimages?At the time of the twin towers, I published a weekly news magazinethat was somewhat similar.However this niche market would now benefit from an online presence. regardsJonathan ChetwyndOn 13 Jun 2006, at 09:46, J.P.Knight wrote:On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC's stock image usage - bunny something or another.The Beeb's news site used to get laughed at in the railway worldbecause they nearly always used a picture of an old obsolete commuter train from the south of England.Even if they were covering theintroduction of new high speed trains to Scotland.I think they'vehad enough complaints over the years to wean them off using thatimage recently. I assume other subjects have equally amusing stock images for thosein the know.Jim'll-Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/-Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Interesting too see someone else interested in Widgit Rebus. Weve been looking at using those and/or Bliss Symbolics (http://www.blissymbolics.org/bliss.shtml) to develop a symbol based interface to our chatbot for use by those with learning difficulties. Anybody got any idea of the differences between the two? David David Burden www.chatbots.co.uk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Mulvaney Sent: 13 June 2006 13:51 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? The symbolworld site uses a system of graphics called Widgit Rebus Symbols, are they proprietry or is there an independent body responsible for standardising new symbols ? Are there licensing issues attached to using symbols to represent text ? On 6/13/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a few correspondents have mentioned the use of stock photographs. People with Learning Disabilities benefit from consistency and many learn an alphabet of images. Some start with photographs of concrete objects and then move on to symbol libraries. A screengrab of how the bbc news homepage can already be transformed using CSS is here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png with a brief description of the means and intention here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/hints.html an example of a news website using symbols is here: http://www.symbolworld.org/eLive/2006/jun06/index.htm these stories would obviously benefit by the addition of photographs, probably thumbnails linked to larger offsite originals as per google images? At the time of the twin towers, I published a weekly news magazine that was somewhat similar. However this niche market would now benefit from an online presence. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:46, J.P.Knight wrote: On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC's stock image usage - bunny something or another. The Beeb's news site used to get laughed at in the railway world because they nearly always used a picture of an old obsolete commuter train from the south of England.Even if they were covering the introduction of new high speed trains to Scotland.I think they've had enough complaints over the years to wean them off using that image recently. I assume other subjects have equally amusing stock images for those in the know. Jim'll - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html.Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Graeme, they are proprietary, and this is a huge issue in respect of the web. The fact is that Widgit create the symbols in SVG but distribute in other formats. similarly the symbols on web pages are awkward eg large gifs covering a number of symbols, or with peculiar names. Unfortunately for the user group and the web, learning new symbols takes time for us all. However there is probably some leeway in that it is perhaps unlikely Widgit will challenge public domain SVG graphics that are original but similar to ones in other formats. http://www.peepo.co.uk has some SVG examples, though many more are currently offline. also http://www.e-democracy.gov.uk/products/icons.htm has some SVG examples with crown copyright, which isn't exactly the same, but similar... regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 13:50, Graeme Mulvaney wrote: The symbolworld site uses a system of graphics called Widgit Rebus Symbols, are they proprietry or is there an independent body responsible for standardising new symbols ? Are there licensing issues attached to using symbols to represent text ? On 6/13/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a few correspondents have mentioned the use of stock photographs. People with Learning Disabilities benefit from consistency and many learn an alphabet of images. Some start with photographs of concrete objects and then move on to symbol libraries. A screengrab of how the bbc news homepage can already be transformed using CSS is here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png with a brief description of the means and intention here: http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/hints.html an example of a news website using symbols is here: http://www.symbolworld.org/eLive/2006/jun06/index.htm these stories would obviously benefit by the addition of photographs, probably thumbnails linked to larger offsite originals as per google images? At the time of the twin towers, I published a weekly news magazine that was somewhat similar. However this niche market would now benefit from an online presence. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 09:46, J.P.Knight wrote: On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBC's stock image usage - bunny something or another. The Beeb's news site used to get laughed at in the railway world because they nearly always used a picture of an old obsolete commuter train from the south of England. Even if they were covering the introduction of new high speed trains to Scotland. I think they've had enough complaints over the years to wean them off using that image recently. I assume other subjects have equally amusing stock images for those in the know. Jim'll - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
David, there are some pretty fundamental differences... you might also want to look at Makaton and PCS also there is the Concept Coding Framework, which is a proposed means of translating between symbol languages. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 13 Jun 2006, at 14:24, David Burden wrote: www.chatbots.co.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
OK - IANAL, and I'm not involved with news, or the homearchive, so this is me with the only-semi-bbc hat on. I can't see any reference to images in news's Terms of Use etc...'Fair Use' is unlikely to apply to images reused elsewhere; even if an image is 'small' it is still the image; it isn't an 'insubstantial part'. It's the difference between a thumbnail of a portrait, and a very tight crop of someone's actual thumbnail as shown in that portrait. ;-) Also, Fair use tends to only apply to private non-commercial excerpting of information. From: http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/faq/copyright/exceptions.htm Yes, there are a number of exceptions to copyright that allow limited use of copyright works without the permission of the copyright owner. For example, limited use of works may be possible for non-commercial research and private study, criticism or review, reporting current events, judicial proceedings, teaching in schools and other educational establishments, not for profit playing of sound recordings and to help visually impaired people. If you are copying large amounts of material and/or making multiple copies then you may still need permission. Also, particularly where a copyright exception covers publication of excerpts from a copyright work, it is generally necessary to include an acknowledgement. Sometimes more than one exception may apply to the use you are thinking of. There are more complications, too; in particular, images used on the BBC are often licensed from elsewhere. We-the-BBC thus don't have the rights to allow reuse, no matter how incidental. It could, potentially, jeopardise agreements with AP (who supply images) etc. But, like I say, I'm not a lawyer. Kim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd Sent: 12 June 2006 15:54 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? I believe for such small graphics fair use may apply... have you seen: http://www.bbc.co.uk/homearchive/ this was originally and for many months hosted here: http://www.whitelabel.org/~matthew/bbcfront/ presumably scraped on a minute by minute basis :-) cheers Jonathan Chetwynd On 12 Jun 2006, at 15:20, Graeme Mulvaney wrote: I think the copyright issue still applies as you would be re-using the images in your service despite the BBC having licensed them. There must be a few thumbnails associated with each news video clip - they show up in the viewer and on the website from time to time and would be more relevant to the story than a stock image. Perhaps these images could be made freely available, licensing would be less of an issue as they'd have come from a BBC source and would probably be more relevant to the actual story than some library images. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Graeme, a picture of a beardy man can be used by an interested person without reading skills to select text for a screen or text reader to read, for example. a feed with a link to a graphic isn't re-distribution of the graphic. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 9 Jun 2006, at 20:17, Graeme Mulvaney wrote: Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re- distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How does a picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics? About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images. http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user style sheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present it would be great if a feed could provide something similar. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd ** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Kim, the application I am describing, promoting and developing benefits people with a learning disability so your quote may be relevant: not for profit playing of sound recordings and to help visually impaired people. furthermore, in the USA there have been recent changes in the law to allow for instance large print versions to be published, where these are not available from the original publisher, and thus prevent complaints of copyright infringement. It is possible that the recent DDA legislation, in particular with respect to the DRC may require the BBC to provide online content accessible to the 20% of the UK population who are functionally illiterate.** though I am also not a lawyer, please note the BBC are specifically included. regards Jonathan Chetwynd **I'm forwarding a formal objection to the proposed WCAG2 web accessibility guidelines in a separate email - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
But perhaps thumbnail graphics aren't the way to go - wouldn't a dedicated news feed that was written in plainer English be more useful, users would then be able to choose stories from that feed and then have the full versions read outto them ? Clearer news summaries would better all round. On 6/12/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kim,the application I am describing, promoting and developing benefitspeople with a learning disability so your quote may be relevant: not for profitplaying of sound recordings and to help visuallyimpaired people.furthermore, in the USA there have been recent changes in the law toallow for instance large print versions to be published, where these are not available from the original publisher, and thus preventcomplaints of copyright infringement.It is possible that the recent DDA legislation, in particular withrespect to the DRC may require the BBC to provide online content accessible to the 20% of the UK population who are functionallyilliterate.** though I am also not a lawyer, please note the BBC arespecifically included.regardsJonathan Chetwynd**I'm forwarding a formal objection to the proposed WCAG2 web accessibility guidelines in a separate email-Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
RE: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
I believe the majority of the images on the News site arent taken by the BBC themselves in other words, they dont have a team of roving photographers dispatched to news story locations. Many of them come from picture agencies such as the PA, AFP, Getty Images and the AP to name but a few, where the BBC would pay a licence fee to use it on line and I am sure the agreements in place come with many strings attached. I think the other sources of images on the BBCs site are either grabs from footage or something else, or images submitted by the general public. And then theres the slightly naff stock photography they use I think the Technology section has to be one of the worst offenders at this; how many times have I seen that hand on the mouse, that man at that old computer tilted at an angle or close up of the warning labels on a keyboard wire at the back of a computer. Or, whenever theres something legal thats ongoing or doesnt have any relevant images, out comes the generic photoshopped picture of the justice scales. In fact, I think there was a blog about this, which poked fun at the BBCs stock image usage bunny something or another. Like Graham said, placing these images in a feed wouldnt necessarily be helpful at all, especially with the generic stock images. - C From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graeme Mulvaney Sent: 09 June 2006 20:17 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics? Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re-distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How doesa picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics? About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images. http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user style sheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present it would be great if a feed could provide something similar. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd ** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html .Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
[backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Where are the feeds with live graphics? About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images. http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user style sheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present it would be great if a feed could provide something similar. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd ** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re-distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How doesa picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics?About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images.http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user stylesheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present itwould be great if a feed could provide something similar.cheersJonathan Chetwynd** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm -Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html .Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/-- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
Re: [backstage] feeds with live graphics?
Graeme, a picture of a beardy man can be used by an interested person without reading skills to select text for a screen or text reader to read, for example. a feed with a link to a graphic isn't re-distribution of the graphic. regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 9 Jun 2006, at 20:17, Graeme Mulvaney wrote: Generally the images don't belong to the BBC per se, so they can't re- distribute them. Besides, you'd have to question the relevance of the thumbnail images anyway :- How does a picture of a woman with a dodgy perm help you understand that the NHS has agreed to fund an anti-cancer treatment ? or a picture of a beardy man explain the situation in Iraq ? If people had problems reading the text of the stories then those images would only confuse them more. On 6/9/06, Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where are the feeds with live graphics? About One in Five people in the UK is functionally illiterate**, they need and benefit from images. http://www.peepo.co.uk/mybbc/grab.png is how a simple css user style sheet can transform http://news.bbc.co.uk however for the present it would be great if a feed could provide something similar. cheers Jonathan Chetwynd ** http://www.lifelonglearning.co.uk/mosergroup/rep01.htm - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
