"We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)"
G: I don't think it gives positive support, they aren't even mentioned or implied. And in order to harmonize it you have to qualify "anything" to a certain degree... ...that's w
> "We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered> before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)"> This statement emphasizes that the gathering of the Lord will come about> after the revelation of this Book, the Qur'an. This verse is in complete> harmony with Baha'i view
Based on Khazeh and Mark's comments, I've summarized them, in my view of course, below. No disrespect or exclusivism or superiority is intended.
-
"We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)"
This statement emphasi
Gilberto, Khazeh, Mark, Susan, et al.,
How long after the passing of the Prophet was the Authentic Holy Qur'an compiled?
Thanks.
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Mark: IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into
IMO, Baha'i soteriology is both particularist and inclusivist. That is because the particularity of the Baha'i primary sources admit the possibility of redemption for those who are not Baha'is. It is difficult to make a similar case, although some have tried, from the texts incorporated into the
G: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
J:
(1) On Al-Qiyamatu'l Udhma, the Great Resurrection, God will say things and answer questions that are not in the Qur'an:
[2:210] : Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canop
> John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.> Gilberto: Could you specifically point to which verse you have in mind and howit points to what we are talking about?
John: What I meant was that there are things that will take place during Qiyamah that are beyond the Qur'an.
Gilberto: It doesn't seem to make sense to think that Muhammad was omniscient but then held back important spiritual truths from the ummah. The Quran doesn't suggest it.
John: It is explained by the Qur'an as the Qiyamah, Surah 75.
"1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection; 2. And I swear by the s
Gilberto: I would say that in a real way there isa huge amount of content already contained in even just "La ilaha illaAllah" (No god but God) "and the rest is commentary" so even juststicking to the Quran is huge amount of fleshing out and unpacking.Alot more unpacking with details and examples
Gilberto:Ok. Then if all that was vouchsafed to Bahaullah was already mentionedto Muhammad, I just think it makes alot more sense for me to look tothose great Muslim interpreters, scholars, and saints to unpack themeaning of the Quran and the sunnah. And nothing would be lost ormissing by doing s
G: That's correct. I wouldn't make definite claims about Sidhartha orKrishna or others, but I wouldn't rule out that they were founded byprophets. I mean, in one hadith it says that in human history therewere as many as 124,000 prophets, so in fact most of them we probablydon't know. ALOT of the g
Mark, At any rate, thanks for the correct. In fact, I don't disagree with what you are saying. My statement did make some unjustified leaps and assumptions. Let me restate what I really mean.
Remember, we are not talking about this or that school in Islam. Aren't we talking about Gilberto's
Mark,
Then what is meant by saying that the Bible is corrupted, and the teaching of the Sonship, Divinity of Christ, Crucifixtion of Christ, etc. are all made-up by man? Isn't this not accepting Christianity as it presents itself?
"Mark A. Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
John,At 09:45 AM 1/
G: If Bahais can try to present the doctrines of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Zorastrianism,etc. in a way which reconciles the apparent differences between them, then narrowing the differences between Sunnis and Shias is a walk in the park.
J: Isn't it more universal to do the one (Baha'i) than
G: But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely newthat can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be adeepened Muslim?
Here is another:
8. Baha'u'llah's body of Sacred Scripture (i.e. = Qur'an, not = Hadith), is more voluminous and covers a wider scope than in an
G: But what I'm wondering about is if there is something genuinely newthat can't be attained through Islam? Why not just try to be adeepened Muslim?
Here are some in my view:
1. The Covenant of Baha'u'llah naming Abdu'l-Baha as successor, thus ensuring perservation of its Unity and doctrinal in
"If on the other hand it be said that all that is vouchsafed now was indeed Mentioned before but in brevity and now their Interpreter [Mubayyin] and their Elucidator [Mufas.s.il] has been made manifest, this too is the indubitable truth and no doubt attacheth thereto." (Baha'u'llah)
Baha'u'llah
G: In my opinion to believe otherwise [Prophethood continues] means you aren't really taking the texts or the record seriously.
J: If Baha'is **didn't** take the Prophet as the Seal seriously, then Baha'u'llah would **not** have the legitimacy to make the claims that He did. In other words, th
G: I think certain kinds of discussions are bad for me for various reasons.
J: Which ones are you refering to?
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G: But the divisions inProtestantism still seems like it would be problematic for allChristians in general.
J: Why do you say that? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
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G: There have always beendifferences in opinion and understanding. Diferent individuals willalmost invariably see things from different perspectives. That's justa feature of being human. And since Bahais are human ...
J: Very true. And the Baha'i Faith promotes diversity of opinion and perspe
What is the total number of Baha'is who do not accept the Universal House of Justice combined, something less than 5,000, right?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 1/7/2005 2:38:36 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I wouldn't call the game before its all over. Think abo
G: I think if Jesus really was God, then it should always be appropriateto recognize the fact that he was God. If Jesus really isn't God, thenit should never be appropriate to say Jesus is God.
J: It explained as follows in the Tablet to Jamal-i Burujirdi by Baha'u'llah, provisionally translated
I'm no expert, but where does it say exactly that Ali ibn Abi Talib is the successor of Prophet Muhammad pbuh?
From http://mozcom.com/~habib/islamstu.htm (first hit on google)
**Quote**
To prove the caliphate of Ali ibn Abi Talib, Shi'ites have had recourse to Quranic verses, including the follow
G: I wish you hadn't claimed this and tried to make it into some kind ofargument.
J: Look at the statement "Because of the absence of the written most binding and unassailable Covenant" before the recounting of the strife. The point is that Muhammad did not have a written will wherein he name
> G: If we had the Gospel in front of us in the same sense that the Quran> is in front of us, and if there were any differences, then Muslims> could agree with you. But it isn't clear what the exact relationship> is between the Gospel which was revealed and the New Testament.> J: I rationalize th
G: When I think of "spirituality" I mean things like the above. Wisdom,compassionate, unselfishness, integrity, patience, modesty. Charactertraits which make sense independently of any particular confessionalcommunity. When I see a deep devout Christian I think I try toappreciate those good char
G: You don't automatically get depth by changing membership. You choose a religion because it speaks to you. Because you feel at home there. Because it makes senseto you. And hopefully you grow spiritually and become a more wise and deep and compassionate person.
J: Yes, true. Let me ask you,
G: Yes, that's what I would say. But a common belief among Muslims is*slightly* different in the sense that certain verses are thought toabrogate certain other ones.
J: So you disagree with that common Muslim belief.G: I thought the Bahai belief was that the Quran was abrogated a littlesooner w
G: Originally I thought we were talking about the doctrine of abrogation(the idea that some laws in the Quran abrogate and replace other lawsin the Quran). The way most people describe the doctrine it impliesthat there are commandments written in the Quran, which have been readfor centuries, rec
Gilberto:The fact that the Quran isn't making a sweeping generalization aboutJews and Christians (People of the Book) should be obvious from otherverses in the Quran.
John:
Exactly. I don't believe the Qur'an makes sweeping generalization about Jews and Christians either. After all, the Qur'an
G: It just seems like there is this obvious and glaring symmetry in theBahai and Muslim positions which people don't seem to beacknowledging. And as far as I can tell, it should be possible toacknowledge that symmetry and still adhere to Bahai principles.Both Bahais and Muslims, based on their s
Khazeh,
These are excerpts from your email that I really like. I have comments against them:
According to Bahá'u'lláh, all of the Manifestations of God have the same metaphysical nature and the same spiritual stature. There is absolute equality among Them. No one of Them is superior to another.
J:
> You two are having a wonderful conversation and I would not barge in.
Khazeh, I feel like my whole presence here has been a big old barge-in. Hope no one minds.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http
G:Yeah I realized that Bahais think that before sending it, contemplatedchanging the wording, and thought that it still applied. I think itstill strikes me as clumsy to have commandments in the Quran which areonly valid for 20 years or less, if the Quran as a whole were to last1200 years.
J: I do
G: It gives the impression of clumsiness if there are commandments in theQuran which were revealed in the time of Muhammad but were only validfor 20 years especially if the Quran is supposed to last from nowuntil judgement day.
J: But Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgement !!
( I don
(I was hesitant about sending this email, but since God gave me fingers to write it, I will send it out.)
G: But if Bahaullah said "weigh not the book..." it gives me theimpression of asking the reader NOT to hold the Bahai writings up tocertain kinds of scrutiny and that tends to inspire suspic
To me, and *practically* speaking, believing that the Qur'an is the Word of God is entirely different from following it. I as a Baha'i do not *follow* the Qur'an. I do not observe its laws, say its prayers, etc. etc. I follow Baha'u'llah, observe His laws, say His prayers.
I do agree, that spe
G:"The effort made by men to reconcile the Word of God with the views of their leades is a wasted effort. Rather man must cast all aside save the Word of God." I'm a little puzzled by what you are saying. Because it seems to me that the Bahai faith has a more narrowly defined set of leaders whic
G: Saying God CAN'T do something is "tying up his hands"Saying God CAN do something but in his sovereign authority andomnipotence chose to do something different is not "typing up hishands"
J: The statement "tying up his hands" would only make sense if you believe that Baha'u'llah is true. Bec
Gilberto,
Not sure if I understood your question correctly. But yes, it is possible to accept such people that arise in Islam, with those kinds of designations, as a Baha'i. A Baha'i may believe that such a person was inspired by God. However, we do not believe that they receive Revelations
> > J: But you do not accept the appearance of anyone on par with Prophet> > Muhammad, i.e. Baha'u'llah, who revealed a brand new Qur'an equal to the> > Qur'an you currently use, do you. In that respect, I believe that you are> > "tying up the hands of God".> I disagree with how you are characte
G: 2. Muslims aren't necessarily "tying up the hands of God" by sayingprophethood is over.
J: But you do not accept the appearance of anyone on par with Prophet Muhammad, i.e. Baha'u'llah, who revealed a brand new Qur'an equal to the Qur'an you currently use, do you. In that respect, I belie
ant of yours isinfluenced [or hopes to be influenced by the Advice of the Universal Houseof Justice]With genuine gratitude to you dear John Smith your humble aspiring servantkf**Baha'u'llah warns us that "the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess ofspeech a deadly poison."
Gilberto (to Khazeh):
You are very welcome. And you are being way too exagerated in yourcomplements. It really isn't necessary. I would actually feel morecomfortable without such comments. I trust you have good intentionsand and are sincerely trying to be warm and friendly.
Gilberto (to Khazeh):
Hi Ron,
But Abdu'l-Baha is not omniscient at will. To me, He did not know english that well. If you ask, why did Baha'u'llah not speak with Browne in English, it is because he didn't know English. Does this make sense if He is omniscient at will? I think it does because I can argue that he di
Also, my understanding is that the revelation of Baha'u'llah abrogates all the laws of previous revelations, like Islam. Therefore, we are only bound by the laws of Baha'u'llah (like in the Aqdas and the ones legislated by the House), and not to the 1000 years worth of Islam laws (etc.). Baha'u'l
Ronald,
Thanks for there questions. I have thought about many of these myself ! Ronald Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dr. Maneck, I understand that you and many others on this List, and many Bahai scholars and Administrators believe in Omniscience at Will, Omnipotence at Will, and other s
G:
You said that if Ali had been accepted, Islam might have continued as a valid religion.
J:
I do not agree with this because even though the Baha'i faith is not 'to be followed by night', we are promised another revelation about 1000 years after 1844.
G:
And so if you should me a religion which issuitable for the spiritual needs of people from different cultures andcivilizations from 622-or-so to 1844 then it should be universalenough to deal with human beings today.
J:
Unless there is something fundamentally different today (that started in t
Sandra,
Taking Gilberto's side on this, how do we explain that there is a need for a new revelation if Islam (given than the writings in the Hadith and Qur'an are accurate) is already here, and as Gilberto has shown us, there are many teaching already in Islam that we Baha'is claim to be unique t
G:
But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independentmanifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle ofprophethood. no?J:
As always, all these are my own view and I may be wrong. But my understanding is that the Bab&Baha'u'llah are the only manifestations that
G:
So you aren't talking about the Bab or Bahaullah helping Muslimsbecome better Muslims. You are talking about Muslims, not beingMuslims anymore and becoming Bahais.J:
By Muslim I mean a follower of the 'eternal Faith of God', not the Religion of Prophet Muhammad.
G:
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?J:
In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle. As far as (2) is concerned
But then by following his laws wouldn't that imply converting?
Yes. In my view, it does. 'Conversion', I believe, is the first paragraph of the Aqdas in one word.
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Mark, You called him the point between the cycles... I retract the statement about the line, because two cycles/circles touch at one point and not at a line.John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think another idea was that the Bab was 'the line' (and here we are thinking he is the point!!! ;) )
I think another idea was that the Bab was 'the line' (and here we are thinking he is the point!!! ;) ) between the prophetic cycle and the cycle of fulfillment.Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:32:47 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Gilberto,> > At 0
G:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab. Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense) better Muslims?
JS:
Yes, I think that the implication is that in some miraculous way ordin
In response to the below, I believe the statement of the Bab quoted below make sense when one is within the timeframe of the Revelation (1844-1852/3). The Bab says very directly:
"Suffer not yourselves to be shut out as by a veil from God after He hath revealed Himself. For all that hath been ex
>>I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is finished and its force is spent, >>that would tend to contraadict and overwhelm the claim that you are praising those >>revelations.
Your view does not makes sense to me because the Qur'an praises Jesus even though it is (in most
I do not believe we should focus on the failures of Islam (see below); instead, it is a simple matter of the fact that the revelation (of Muhammad/Qur'an/Islam proper) has come to an end, even though the eternal in the past and future Islam is re-revealed in the form of Baha'u'llah and His various
>> They didn't and so another revelation was needed.
In my opinion another revelation is needed regardless. Look at the fact that even though the Baha'i Faith is presiding over a day that will not be followed by night, God will send another revelation.___
Arab tribes, but God sent Prophet Muhammad to achieve this (among other things of course).
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:37:31 -0800 (PST), John Smith<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Are you saying that Sunnis view Shiism as basically a subset of Sunn
Are you saying that Sunnis view Shiism as basically a subset of Sunni Islam, since Sunni also acknowledge the family of Muhammad? What about Shiites, how do they view Sunnis? Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:53:18 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But I would think that the value of a human life doesn't go up or downlike hemlines either. I would think that in general if a certain actof killing was wrong after 1844 it would have been wrong before too,no?
J: One way I would respond is to say that mo
G: The Bahai writings say that Muhammad only fought defensively to stoppersecution. This would have saved lives.
J: So are you justifying War in some instances related to stopping religious persecution? Doesn't this contradict what you said in the other email that all wars were committed by bad Mu
G: Islam doesn't start wars or conduct mass killings. Muslims who violateIslam's teachings might do that. But Islam doesn't. That's part of theproblem with the Bahai perspective on Islam. If the ideals are sound,I really don't care what so-called Muslims do. Bad Muslims don'tdisprove Islam.
J: I do
> Why not accept Baha'i as clearer and purer than Islam? G: Off the top of my head, I don't think the Bahai understanding of Islamdoes it justice. And I haven't been convinced that the Bahai figuresare who they say they are.
J: Fair enough. To be constructive, I think you are unwilling to let go
You have brought up hikmat a number of times. How does hikmat come into play in this regard?
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not sure if something is getting lost though. There are at leasttwo levels to this. The level of practice, and the level of words. Onthe level of practice,
G: [Islam is] clearer and more reliable and purer as a guide [than the Christianity/Judaism].
J: It is interesting that you say clearer and purer instead of clearest and purest. Do you anticipate anything clearer and purer than Islam coming around? Why not accept Baha'i as clearer and purer th
G: The Quran describes God in certain ways and on the one hand you want to recognize that God is so amazing that words don't quite do him justice. At the same time, on the other hand, if you go too far in this direction you end up rejecting and denying God's own description of Himself in authent
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Killing is killing. And the ethical considerations arelargely the same.
Not so sure. There are many types of killing.
1. Human killing human for revenge.
2. Human killing animal for food.
3. Human killing human to prevent him from suffering (crushed u
G:
I think the argument is that if the Quran is the word of God, and God's speech is an eternal attribute of God related in a particular way with his essence, then the implication is that in some, way, shape, or form, the Quran is uncreated.
J:
I would say God's speech is an eternal attribute of
G:
I don't have a problem with the idea that the heart of the Gospel'smessage is contained in the New Testament.
Especially If you look at all the ancient Christian texts as awhole I'm confident that the Gospel is in there.
J:
Question: How do you justify needing the Qur'an or Islam if the above
>And again, for background, the>galling part which made me want to look at this question was a>previous statement that the Bahai faith was the first religion to>believe in gender equality.
Abdu'l-Baha says that "in the sight of Baha, women are accounted the same as men". He qualifies this statemen
Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So yes, there are a number of differences in the roles of men andwomen in the Bahai faith. I didn't say "Women are horribly exploitedby sexism and patriarchy throughout the Bahai faith" But there aredifferences. And some religions can honestly say they do
Gilberto:And the claim that the Quran itself says the dispensation of Muhammad was suposed to only last1000 years doesn't seem believable either.J:Since everything in nature that I have ever encountered has an end, why not the Qur'an. Itseems more logic that it does end than to believe it doesn't.
Gilberto:In other words, jihad includes fighting against aggressors.J:imo, the Baha'i view is that the aggressor's intentions are important. If the purpose of theaggression is religiously based (i.e. you are a Baha'i and I hate your prophet so I want tokill you), we are not allowed to fight back (
G:If that's the case, then the Bahais should say "We believe in certaindistinctions between the roles of men and women and we believe thatwisdom behind these rules will be apparent at some point in thedistant future.". To just say "we believe in absolute gender equality"and leave it at that seems d
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