The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi, The number 12 is important in religion, it seems it has to do with the number 360 (in the extreme, Zeitgeist video says religion is false and is all about about Zodiac). It seems that 24 elders is not an institution. The 24 elders were special and very important souls. Searching on line in the King James Bible about 24 elders, make this result: http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/kjv2www?specfile=/texts/english/religion/kjv/kjv-pub.o2w&grouping=match&docs=text&query=elders&sample=1-100&id=KjvReve Revelation, chapter 4 four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they Revelation, chapter 4 four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, Revelation, chapter 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of Revelation, chapter 5 the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having s Revelation, chapter 5 four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one Revelation, chapter 5 e beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand tim Revelation, chapter 5 four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for Revelation, chapter 7 and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the thron Revelation, chapter 7 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which Revelation, chapter 11 four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell u Revelation, chapter 14 beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hu Revelation, chapter 19 four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped
I also think it is interesting that, in religion there are always the "dark side", people necesary bad. The question is: if they are bad because the will of God (there should be always bad people to accomplish the misions of the chosen ones) or they are bad because they voluntary want so. I make this question because in the Bible-Exodus we found repetedly God "hardened Pharaoh's heart". --- El vie, 2/12/10, Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> escribió: De: Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> Asunto: Re: Lesser Prophets A: "Baha'i Studies" <bahai-st@list.jccc.edu> Fecha: viernes, 12 de febrero de 2010, 01:21 pm The Baha'i Studies Listserv > I think the 24 Guardians are different from the subject of 24 elders. Shahram, If you know of any place where Abdu'l-Baha says anything about 'guardians' outside of his interpretation of the 24 Elders mentioned in the Book of Revelation please feel free to post the source here. >As one familiar with the subject may understand,the Imams came after the >Islam's Prophet(generation after generration) Are you admitting finally you are a Shi'ite Muslim and not a Baha'i? >.In the words of Master,in comparing the 24 Guardians with the Shia Imams, > I think that Guardians shoud have come after Bahaullah,and AbdulBaha . Except the same passage also compares the Twelve Imams to the Twelve Apostles. These were chosen during Jesus only lifetime, they did not come in succession like the Imams. They were more like the Letters of the Living. >In this way,He called Shoghi in his W&T as Guardian( wali amr ).Shoghi was >assumed as >the first one. The next were to come. There would have been more Guardians had Shoghi Effendi produced an heir. That doesn't mean they were supposed to be 24 of them. There is nothing in the Writings which indicates this. In fact, in the Kitab-i Aqdas Baha'u'llah explicitly refers to the possibility that His line might die out before the establishment of the Universal House of Justice. Surely He wasn't anticipating that it would take 24 generations for us to have a House of Justice! > But the 24 elders(19 of them Bab,and the Horuf-e- Hayy;and the next 5 to come > in the unknown future), can by no means be compared with the Shia Imams,with > their exactly >defined and explained responsibilities. I suppose you can argue that the 12 Imams can't be compared to the 12 Apostles, but Abdu'l-Baha does so, in that same passage. He also compares to them to the twelve sons of Jacob. Now, how does that fit if this passage carries the meaning you want to assign to it? > If one assumes that Shoghi was not one of those 24 Guardians- I do not see > this a sane theory-,then we should wait for those 24 Guardians;unless there > has been a bada'. If you want to look for evidence of bada', stick to the Will and Testament. Abdu'l-Baha never refers to the institution of the Guardianship outside of that document. I don't have any problem with the concept of bada' as it relates to the Guardianship. Abdu'l-Baha clearly anticipated future Guardians but He never said anything about 24. As I mentioned, while the Guardian is called Vali Amr, vali can just as easily refer to any saintly soul and it is obvious from the context that it in the passage from SAQ. Susan __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-487105-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu ____________________________________________________________________________________ ¡Obtén la mejor experiencia en la web! Descarga gratis el nuevo Internet Explorer 8. http://downloads.yahoo.com/ieak8/?l=e1 __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-492478-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
