Dear Anthony, Thanks for this. Your response makes obvious, though, that I didn't make myself sufficiently clear, as you address issues that I didn't and wouldn't argue about.
Not only later German baroque lutenists were indebted to French lutenist's experimentations, the whole of Europe was. Not only French clavecenists were deeply influenced by French lutenists, musicians all over Europe took over the breaking and rhythmical shifting of voices as a style (see Daniel Vetter, Musicalische Kirch- und Hauss-Ergötzlichkeit (as late as 1709-1713) http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Vetter-Daniel.htm). Okay, perhaps except Italy 8) Not sure if mental figures like evolution or progression from one composer to another are instrumental in explaining their respective music and styles. IMO Lully's music in his way is as much speaking as is Dufaut's in his. Not sure if Gallot's music is appropriately characterized in saying that it is announcing the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée. Perhaps it's just me, but I for one cannot see the use of generic systematizations on this field. What I actually tried to deal with is the depiction of baroque lute music (French in particular) and its history in modern accounts and recordings. It is by no means my opinion that "this elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest pieces" (end of quote). Rather, that is the approach that I tried to criticize. One more response. I have difficulties in understanding what "pure" (as opposed to what?) melodic structure might be. Yet you seem to consider melodic structure as an opposite of musical gesture ("but it is the eloquent gesture, elegance, "). IMO, however, melodic structure is the very means of achieving gestures and expression in French baroque lute music, as it is based both on verse rhythm ("speaking") and on dance. Mathias > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > Auftrag von Anthony Hind > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 21. März 2012 10:52 > An: Mathias Rösel; Arto Wikla > Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > > Perhaps, Matthias, we can at least agree that later German baroque > lutenists, were indebted to the French lutenist's experimentation with accords > nouveaux, lute types, and "le style luthé" which so influenced even the French > harpsichordists. Their in depth research of the lute's sonorities makes their > pieces studies in sound texture (as much as in melodic structure), tightly > associated with this instrument, and difficult to transpose. Those who are less > sensitive to texture may indeed prefer the more overtly organised > melodic structure of a Weiss, or a de Visée. > > However, there is a range in French music, from the almost speaking style (as > Arto says of Dufaut), to a more Lullian melodic style ("spiked" with dissonance): > from the disolving harmonic patterns of Mouton, through Gallot (announcing > the harmonic vocabulary of de Visée), to de Visée himself, with his > independently structured bass lines underpinning a strongly articulated melodic > superstructure. For some, Weiss might be the pinnacle of this progression; yet > both Weiss, and de Visée, proclaim their debt and admiration for Gallot: de > Visée quotes Psychée in his tombeaux du Vieux Gallot, while Weiss' reworks > "L'Amant Malheureux", as a resounding "eulogy". > > As I said in a recent SFL luth journal, in a concert in Paris, Benjamin Narvey > underlined this evolution, and while his strong projection and singing style > undoubtedly favoured the cantabile of these two great masters*, de Visée and > Weiss, his performance of the more elusive Prelude of Mouton (through his > masterful phrasing, ornamentation and rhythm), achieved a fluidity approaching > the gestures of a baroque dancer. Nothing seemed static, even silences > suggested movement: musical flights abruptly suspended, but continued in the > mind of the listener. Dissolving harmonic patterns melted into each other, the > lute constantly ringing as new notes were struck, the resonance of the lute itself > seems the primary focus of the composition. > > Each lutenist has their own sensitivity and history which makes one composer > work better for them than another. I understand you fascination, Mathias, with > "pure" melodic structure, to which I am not immune; but it is the eloquent > gesture, elegance, fluidity and poise of French Baroque to which I feel most > drawn. > > However, you are quite right that with the loss of the musical tradition this > elusive music has become almost too difficult to interpret, even for the simplest > pieces, so rather than attempting Gallot's Psyché, I am at present struggling with > de Visée's slightly more melodically approachable "Tombeau du Vieux Gallot" > inspired by this piece. > Unfortunately, even for this, it is not sufficient to have a historically suitable lute > and excellent stringing with good clarity and sustain, to succeed. > Regards > > Anthony > *PS This is exactly the repertoire (Weiss and de Visée)that Benjamin will be > performing in Paris this coming Sunday. > > > > ----- Mail original ----- > De : Mathias Rösel <mathias.roe...@t-online.de> À : baroque-lute mailing-list > <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Cc : > Envoyé le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 0h07 > Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > > Dear Arto, > > Thank you for your balanced views! I agree in general that there's no better or > worse in matters of taste. I hasten to add, though, that taste is a matter of > education, a matter of discerning the ways. When I look back, I must admit that > some things went wrong in the very beginning of my lute schooling. Wrong is a > strong word, I know, but that's what it looks like from my perspective of today. > > Giesbert's method does not contain French baroque music, offering but late > German baroque. Satoh's method has one piece by Gallot, but via the famous > arrangement by Weiss! The method by Michel Serdoura / Yisrael has been the > best so far IMO in that it offers very well written articles by several authors and > a wide range of music. That is the desirable width of mind that Dagobert Bruger > had already reached in 1928. > > No mention, though, of other types of the instrument. The baroque lute is a > number of different lutes, rather, comprising 10c through 13c lutes, including > different types of theorboed and non-theorboed lutes, not to speak of different > tunings. > > You mentioned traits like uneven and unpredictable passages, varying the > lengths of phrases, unexpected harmonies in French baroque lute music. I share > these impressions (don't particularly like them, though), but I am suspicious that > they have been provoked by circulating recordings which helped to create this > kind of common approach towards this music. I appreciate more the ways these > composers e.g. deal with their melodies. > > Thank you anyway for Monsieur Dufaut's courante! > > Mathias > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im > > Auftrag von Arto Wikla > > Gesendet: Samstag, 17. März 2012 19:15 > > An: Anthony Hind > > Cc: Mathias Rösel; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > > > > Dear Anthony, Mathias and the List > > > > Some personal aesthetic views of French style and Weiss et co: > > > > I am not talking of some music being "better" or "worse" than some > > other music. Actually my opinion is also generally that no style of > > music is > better or > > worse than any other style. Of course everyone has her/his preferences > > and > no- > > no's, but that is subjective selection, not "the truth". > > > > I like very much the French 17th century lute music just because it is > uneven and > > unpredictable; the lengths of phrases vary, there are unexpected > harmonies, etc. > > Often it is like speaking, not so much like singing a versed poem. And > just that > > attracts me - lots of information often in a small space. > > > > To me the style of Weiss and other late baroque guys is quite often > > very "square". Everything in pieces of this style usually behaves so > > well and "educated". And it can be so predictable! And so often > > everything is > repeated > > and repeated ad infinitum... On the other hand, it can be very > > song-like: beautiful melodies "correctly" harmonized. Groups of four > > bars elegantly set to the company of other four bars, A-section ending > > to the dominant key, B-section bringing it back to the tonic... Well, > > can > sometimes be > > boring... (Of course there is also very enjoyable music by the late > baroque > > composers, even to me! ;-) > > > > Just today I (again) enjoyed the uneven and unpredictable French > > baroque > in the > > company of Francois Dufault: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIUhqvJ_zk > > > > And yes, I know my graces should be more graceful, but anyhow I am > > just a > Finn, > > not a Frenchman... ;-)) > > > > All the best, > > > > Arto > > > > > > On 17/03/12 15:32, Anthony Hind wrote: > > > Dear Mathias > > > Thanks for your explanations, yes I do understand your > > > feelings. I have a number of friends here in Paris, who prefer > > >to > play > > > Weiss (or similar) rather than French music, more or less for > > >the > > > reasons you state. > > > Only the bare-bones seem to be encoded in the tablature, and a > > >great > > > depth of understanding is needed to interpret the simplest of > pieces. > > > Economy of composition and melodic ambiguity, seems almost > > > contradictory; French classic literature shows similar economy, > > >but > > > seeks out "le mot juste" (whereas according to a recent BBC > programme, > > > English authors delight in ambiguity). > > > I do delight in melodic ambiguity, but am far from mastering the > > >art > of > > > its interpretation or grasping the "grammar" of its rhetoric. > > > My first teacher, Terrence Waterhouse, before I temporarily > > >retired > > > from lute playing, was a student of Michael Schaeffer, and I > > >heard > much > > > about his theoretical in-put, through him. At that time I was > > >only > > > learning renaissance lute, and there was unfortunately a long > > >break > > > before I returned to lute playing and the baroque lute. > > > I am in contact with an expert in the interpretation of the > > >French > > > lute, and always amazed at how he makes a piece sing, or talk; > > >in > > > comparison my playing is completely flat, but I strive on. I > > >love > his > > > playing of Weiss, but find it almost melodically indulgent (if > > >you > know > > > what I mean), I must be rather a melodic puritan, I fear. > > > Best wishes > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > _ > > > > > > De : Mathias Roesel<mathias.roe...@t-online.de> > > > A : baroque-lute mailing-list<baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Envoye le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 10h56 > > > Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD > > > Dear Anthony, > > > I do not blame you, and I hope you didn't offense in what I wrote. > As > > > for > > > the "Pieces de luth" LP, I do regret that it was my first > > >encounter > > > with > > > French baroque lute music. When I first listened, I was like, > > >wow, > they > > > had > > > jazz in the 17th century. It's so sophisticated, I couldn't tell > triple > > > time > > > from even time by listening, I was amazed by the glittering > > >sound, > > > amazed by > > > unexpected progress of harmonies, amazed by unidentifiable > rhythmical > > > structures. > > > From then on, my idea of that music was, I kinda like it, but > > >this > is > > > so > > > artificial, I will never understand how it works. This music was > > > completely > > > veiled before my ears because of many rubatos, arpeggios instead > > >of > > > broken > > > lines, and so on. Had I first listened to, say, Michael > > >Schaeffer, > > > things > > > would have been different for me (but if and would are the > > >fool's > last > > > words). That first contact coined my idea of what French baroque > lute > > > music > > > was. > > > And that's why I kept my hands off from it for a long time. Like > many > > > others, I took my way through Giesbert's method and later > > >through > > > Toyohiko > > > Satoh's. To me, the greatest composers who wrote for the baroque > lute, > > > were > > > Bach and Weiss, and none other compared to them. I knew there > > >was > some > > > French music, but it was much too tricky and way not rewarding > enough > > > as to > > > be worth a try. Sorry for oversimplification, but it comes close. > > > > He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating > > >to > the > > > > Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he > > >says > > > nothing > > > > about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry > > >that > you > > > didn't > > > > remember it. > > > That's right, he doesn't say a word about his stringing in the > booklet > > > of > > > Old Gaultier's Nightingale. > > > Best, > > > Mathias > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > >
