Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Liam R. E. Quin]

On Fri, 2017-02-24 at 18:07 +, Kendall Shaw wrote:
> For example, a program that regulates flow of water in a garden
> sprinkler is probably not a good match for xquery and an xml
> database.
Funnily enough, sensors these days often report results using EXI, and
an embedded XQuery engine might be a fine way to go. People used to use
mxquery for such applications.
 
A lot of tooling choice comes down to warm fuzzies and familiarity.

If you're actually querying XML, then an XML database and XQuery do
make an obvious choice. I find it can help to say it's a "fast forest
store" with XML as an interchange and loading format, to try & prevent
the misunderstanding that the software reads the entire database as
pointy-bracket XML with each query and is glacially slow. I wish we'd
used a forest metaphor for naming XQuery...

Liam

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Kendall Shaw]

A more interesting example, maybe: If you compare XPath with this SPARQL 
fragment:

?x foaf:knows/foaf:name ?name .

All of my friend’s friend’s friend’s friend’s friend’s etc., with arbitrary 
depth, who know my friend with name x.

Friends are not limited to having 1  “befriender” in the way that elements have 
1 parent, so it could make sense to represent some data as a less restricted 
form of graph than an XML element tree. 

Kendall

On 2/24/17, 10:07 AM, "basex-talk-boun...@mailman.uni-konstanz.de on behalf of 
Kendall Shaw"  wrote:

For example, a program that regulates flow of water in a garden sprinkler 
is probably not a good match for xquery and an xml database. 

On 2/24/17, 2:20 AM, "meumapple"  wrote:

Hi Kendall,

I do not agree. A few considerations. If data are XML, I find it 
difficult to use a different language from XQuery. It is possible, of course, 
but much much more complex (why doing that?!). But native XML files are not the 
entire story. You can transform, for example, all of text data into an elegant 
XML working version and very very easily query it. I can do whatever I want 
with XQuery easily and deal with different kinds of data, so I do not agree at 
all. 




Il giorno 24 feb 2017, alle ore 00:37, Kendall Shaw 
 ha scritto:

What the application is makes all the difference. If the purpose does 
not have to do with XML and XML in a database, then XQuery and BaseX is less 
likely to be appropriate.

Kendall

On 2/23/17, 12:36 PM, "basex-talk-boun...@mailman.uni-konstanz.de on 
behalf of Maximilian Gärber"  wrote:

  Hi Marco,

  from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
  to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
  query language.

  If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
  will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
  about querying data(bases).

  For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

  Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
  applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
  routing, storage, etc).


  Regards,

  Max













  2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> Hi to everyone,
> 
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the 
BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust 
the most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of 
interest to
> some of you.
> 
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of 
data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else 
and BTW
> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service 
oriented
> architectures.
> 
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to 
face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological 
choice of
> XQuery.
> 
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather 
XML- (and
> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
> 
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar 
opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like 
Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
> 
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those 
would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
> 
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these 
matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages 
that can
> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Marco.

Re: [basex-talk] BaseX 8.6.1

[meumapple]

Thank you, Christian! I am sure XQuery will succeed

Il giorno 24 feb 2017, alle ore 18:29, Christian Grün 
 ha scritto:

Dear all,

A new minor update of BaseX is available (version 8.6.1, see [1] for
more details). If you use BaseX with many users in parallel, we
recommend you to switch to this version, which provides an improved
locking strategy for excessive parallelism.

Have fun, and (just in case) a nice weekend,
Christian

PS: Thanks everyone for the interesting mailing list discussion on
XQuery in commercial environments. The good thing: Once you convince
your customers or CTOs that XQuery is an attractive alternative, and
once your project is a success, they usually want to realize
everything with XQuery, no matter if it makes sense... Keep on going,
don't give up too early!

[1] https://github.com/BaseXdb/basex/blob/master/CHANGELOG

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Kendall Shaw]

For example, a program that regulates flow of water in a garden sprinkler is 
probably not a good match for xquery and an xml database. 

On 2/24/17, 2:20 AM, "meumapple"  wrote:

Hi Kendall,

I do not agree. A few considerations. If data are XML, I find it difficult 
to use a different language from XQuery. It is possible, of course, but much 
much more complex (why doing that?!). But native XML files are not the entire 
story. You can transform, for example, all of text data into an elegant XML 
working version and very very easily query it. I can do whatever I want with 
XQuery easily and deal with different kinds of data, so I do not agree at all. 




Il giorno 24 feb 2017, alle ore 00:37, Kendall Shaw 
 ha scritto:

What the application is makes all the difference. If the purpose does not 
have to do with XML and XML in a database, then XQuery and BaseX is less likely 
to be appropriate.

Kendall

On 2/23/17, 12:36 PM, "basex-talk-boun...@mailman.uni-konstanz.de on behalf 
of Maximilian Gärber"  wrote:

  Hi Marco,

  from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
  to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
  query language.

  If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
  will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
  about querying data(bases).

  For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

  Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
  applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
  routing, storage, etc).


  Regards,

  Max













  2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> Hi to everyone,
> 
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust the 
most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of interest 
to
> some of you.
> 
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else and 
BTW
> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> architectures.
> 
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological choice 
of
> XQuery.
> 
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather XML- 
(and
> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
> 
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
> 
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
> 
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages that can
> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Marco.

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Adil Hasan]

Hello Marco,
I'm sure your thinking like this: look at it from the customer's point
of view. They will view the
s/w as a means to a enabling them to get their product to the consumer
more cheaply or quickly or to allow them to reach more consumers.

>From that viewpoint here's a few points to consider:
- is Xquery easy to learn and use?
- is it cheap?
- is it secure?
- is it faster?
- does it scale?
- how difficult is it to port what we have to using Xquery?
- is it easy to maintain?

As Dirk says below you also should point out the XML database products
exist and are relatively mature with good support. Business people are
risk-averse when it comes to tools required to build their product
(unless the new tool offers such a compelling advantage that the risk is
worth taking).

It may be worth demonstrating that a novice user was able to get some
Xquery example up and running in a short time. Or, showing some demo
that is a mock-up of some component of their system and describe how
long it took to put together (perhaps compare with a similar approach
with another s/w).

hth
adil

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 07:55:25PM +0330, Dirk Kirsten wrote:
> Hello Marco,
> 
> I think Max is spot on, that the main objection of business people is
> that XQuery is not exactly mainstream stuff. Nobody will be questioned
> if you buy Oracle and your project in the end fails - Hey, you bought
> the established market leader, what could go wrong? But you use a
> relatively unknown, open source database (BaseX comes to mind...) and
> the project fails - Hey, everyone will criticize this decision, for sure.
> 
> However, to at least decrease the fears it might be worth mentioning the
> standardization efforts and open source software involved:
> 
> - XQuery, XPath, etc.pp. are all W3C standards
> 
> - There are several XQuery implementations (BaseX, exist-db, MarkLogic),
> so even in the case your platform in the end might not be maintained
> anymore you might be able to change to another implementation
> 
> - Functional languages are quite "in" at the moment (look at the success
> of Haskell, Clojure, Scala, Erlang, ...). With XQuery being also a
> functional language it is quite easier for those developers also to
> grasp XQuery. So you should have an increasing number of at least
> potential XQuery developers
> 
> - Using BaseX (or exist-db) as your XQuery processor you use open source
> software, which has several business benefits (e.g. decreased risk of
> vendor lock in)
> 
> - Using BaseX (or exist-db) you can get get commercial supports from the
> companies behind these open source tools. For some reason, business
> people love to buy commercial support...
> 
> 
> I hope you can convince them - Wish you all the best
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> On 02/24/2017 06:06 PM, Marco Lettere wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> > thank you all so much for the great feedback.
> > This one in particular feels like a crucial point and it's why I'm
> > currently collecting all possible feedback also from students, stagers
> > and other technicians that are somehow representative of entry-level
> > to basic staff.
> > Nice to see that people with fresh minds are extremely positive about
> > the simplicity and the productivity of XQuery even if confronted with
> > non XML specific use cases!
> > Marco.
> >
> > On 24/02/2017 15:25, Adil Hasan wrote:
> >> Hello Max,
> >>
> >> I think business decisions follow that path to avoid ending up in
> >> a niche area where it would be terribly difficult to employ a
> >> replacement once a/the developer has left.
> >> Perhaps also pointing out that there are standards and perhaps
> >> that it's not too difficult to learn would help to allay fears?
> >>
> >> hth
> >> adil
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 03:06:59PM +0100, Maximilian Gärber wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I really like this thread! Keep the arguments coming! ;-)
> >>>
> >>> I am not saying that XQuery is just another query language. But if
> >>> somebody (who has never heard anything about XQuery) is asking about
> >>> your technological choice then telling them that XQuery is so special
> >>> and unique is counter-productive.
> >>>
> >>> Because business decisions are always the same when it comes to
> >>> technology: they want this warm and fuzzy feeling that you are running
> >>> on mainstream stuff.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Br,
> >>> Max
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2017-02-24 12:56 GMT+01:00 Hans-Juergen Rennau :
>  To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can
>  make is
>  call XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an
>  information
>  language. If this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this
>  reflects
>  the novelty of the concept of an "information language". A book
>  should be
>  written about it. Which points to my ...
> 
>  second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is
>  nothing
>  special about XQuery. I think XQuery is 

[basex-talk] BaseX 8.6.1

[Christian Grün]

Dear all,

A new minor update of BaseX is available (version 8.6.1, see [1] for
more details). If you use BaseX with many users in parallel, we
recommend you to switch to this version, which provides an improved
locking strategy for excessive parallelism.

Have fun, and (just in case) a nice weekend,
Christian

PS: Thanks everyone for the interesting mailing list discussion on
XQuery in commercial environments. The good thing: Once you convince
your customers or CTOs that XQuery is an attractive alternative, and
once your project is a success, they usually want to realize
everything with XQuery, no matter if it makes sense... Keep on going,
don't give up too early!

[1] https://github.com/BaseXdb/basex/blob/master/CHANGELOG

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Dirk Kirsten]

Hello Marco,

I think Max is spot on, that the main objection of business people is
that XQuery is not exactly mainstream stuff. Nobody will be questioned
if you buy Oracle and your project in the end fails - Hey, you bought
the established market leader, what could go wrong? But you use a
relatively unknown, open source database (BaseX comes to mind...) and
the project fails - Hey, everyone will criticize this decision, for sure.

However, to at least decrease the fears it might be worth mentioning the
standardization efforts and open source software involved:

- XQuery, XPath, etc.pp. are all W3C standards

- There are several XQuery implementations (BaseX, exist-db, MarkLogic),
so even in the case your platform in the end might not be maintained
anymore you might be able to change to another implementation

- Functional languages are quite "in" at the moment (look at the success
of Haskell, Clojure, Scala, Erlang, ...). With XQuery being also a
functional language it is quite easier for those developers also to
grasp XQuery. So you should have an increasing number of at least
potential XQuery developers

- Using BaseX (or exist-db) as your XQuery processor you use open source
software, which has several business benefits (e.g. decreased risk of
vendor lock in)

- Using BaseX (or exist-db) you can get get commercial supports from the
companies behind these open source tools. For some reason, business
people love to buy commercial support...


I hope you can convince them - Wish you all the best

Dirk


On 02/24/2017 06:06 PM, Marco Lettere wrote:
> Hi guys,
> thank you all so much for the great feedback.
> This one in particular feels like a crucial point and it's why I'm
> currently collecting all possible feedback also from students, stagers
> and other technicians that are somehow representative of entry-level
> to basic staff.
> Nice to see that people with fresh minds are extremely positive about
> the simplicity and the productivity of XQuery even if confronted with
> non XML specific use cases!
> Marco.
>
> On 24/02/2017 15:25, Adil Hasan wrote:
>> Hello Max,
>>
>> I think business decisions follow that path to avoid ending up in
>> a niche area where it would be terribly difficult to employ a
>> replacement once a/the developer has left.
>> Perhaps also pointing out that there are standards and perhaps
>> that it's not too difficult to learn would help to allay fears?
>>
>> hth
>> adil
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 03:06:59PM +0100, Maximilian Gärber wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I really like this thread! Keep the arguments coming! ;-)
>>>
>>> I am not saying that XQuery is just another query language. But if
>>> somebody (who has never heard anything about XQuery) is asking about
>>> your technological choice then telling them that XQuery is so special
>>> and unique is counter-productive.
>>>
>>> Because business decisions are always the same when it comes to
>>> technology: they want this warm and fuzzy feeling that you are running
>>> on mainstream stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>> Br,
>>> Max
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2017-02-24 12:56 GMT+01:00 Hans-Juergen Rennau :
 To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can
 make is
 call XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an
 information
 language. If this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this
 reflects
 the novelty of the concept of an "information language". A book
 should be
 written about it. Which points to my ...

 second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is
 nothing
 special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or am I
 wrong?)
 the first and only general-purpose programming language which is a
 pure
 expression language built upon the ground of a value model centered
 in the
 concept of resources composed of globally addressable, interrelated
 information (i.e. nodes).

 With kind regards,
 Hans-Jürgen


 Maximilian Gärber  schrieb am 21:36 Donnerstag,
 23.Februar 2017:


 Hi Marco,

 from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
 to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
 query language.

 If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
 will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
 about querying data(bases).

 For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

 Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
 applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
 routing, storage, etc).


 Regards,

 Max













 2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> Hi to everyone,
>
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Paul Swennenhuis]

Nice article Greg!

Paul

On 24-2-2017 14:29, Murray, Gregory wrote:
I agree entirely that XQuery is unique and that calling it a query 
language gives the wrong impression. I gave a talk about this last 
August at Balisage:


http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol18/html/Murray01/BalisageVol18-Murray01.html

Regards,
Greg

From: > on behalf of 
Hans-Juergen Rennau >

Reply-To: Hans-Juergen Rennau >
Date: Friday, February 24, 2017 at 6:56 AM
To: Maximilian Gärber >, 
"basex-talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de 
" 
>

Subject: Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can 
make is call XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an 
information language. If this appears to be an incomprehensible 
statement, this reflects the novelty of the concept of an "information 
language". A book should be written about it. Which points to my ...


second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is 
nothing special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or 
am I wrong?) the first and only general-purpose programming language 
which is a pure expression language built upon the ground of a value 
model centered in the concept of resources composed of globally 
addressable, interrelated information (i.e. nodes).


With kind regards,
Hans-Jürgen


Maximilian Gärber > 
schrieb am 21:36 Donnerstag, 23.Februar 2017:



Hi Marco,

from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
query language.

If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
about querying data(bases).

For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
routing, storage, etc).


Regards,

Max













2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere >:

> Hi to everyone,
>
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust 
the most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of 
interest to

> some of you.
>
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else 
and BTW

> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> architectures.
>
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to 
face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological 
choice of

> XQuery.
>
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather 
XML- (and

> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
>
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
>
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
>
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these 
matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages 
that can

> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Marco.
>

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Adil Hasan]

Hello Max,

I think business decisions follow that path to avoid ending up in
a niche area where it would be terribly difficult to employ a 
replacement once a/the developer has left.
Perhaps also pointing out that there are standards and perhaps
that it's not too difficult to learn would help to allay fears?

hth
adil

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 03:06:59PM +0100, Maximilian Gärber wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I really like this thread! Keep the arguments coming! ;-)
> 
> I am not saying that XQuery is just another query language. But if
> somebody (who has never heard anything about XQuery) is asking about
> your technological choice then telling them that XQuery is so special
> and unique is counter-productive.
> 
> Because business decisions are always the same when it comes to
> technology: they want this warm and fuzzy feeling that you are running
> on mainstream stuff.
> 
> 
> Br,
> Max
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2017-02-24 12:56 GMT+01:00 Hans-Juergen Rennau :
> > To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can make is
> > call XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an information
> > language. If this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this reflects
> > the novelty of the concept of an "information language". A book should be
> > written about it. Which points to my ...
> >
> > second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is nothing
> > special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or am I wrong?)
> > the first and only general-purpose programming language which is a pure
> > expression language built upon the ground of a value model centered in the
> > concept of resources composed of globally addressable, interrelated
> > information (i.e. nodes).
> >
> > With kind regards,
> > Hans-Jürgen
> >
> >
> > Maximilian Gärber  schrieb am 21:36 Donnerstag,
> > 23.Februar 2017:
> >
> >
> > Hi Marco,
> >
> > from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
> > to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
> > query language.
> >
> > If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
> > will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
> > about querying data(bases).
> >
> > For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.
> >
> > Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
> > applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
> > routing, storage, etc).
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Max
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> >> Hi to everyone,
> >>
> >> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> >> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust the
> >> most.
> >> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of interest
> >> to
> >> some of you.
> >>
> >> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> >> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else and
> >> BTW
> >> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> >> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> >> architectures.
> >>
> >> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to face a
> >> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological choice
> >> of
> >> XQuery.
> >>
> >> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> >> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather XML-
> >> (and
> >> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> >> probably better than many other alternatives.
> >>
> >> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> >> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> >> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
> >>
> >> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> >> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> >> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
> >>
> >> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these matters,
> >> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages that can
> >> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> >> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot!
> >>
> >> Marco.
> >>
> >
> >

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Murray, Gregory]

I agree entirely that XQuery is unique and that calling it a query language 
gives the wrong impression. I gave a talk about this last August at Balisage:

http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol18/html/Murray01/BalisageVol18-Murray01.html

Regards,
Greg

From: 
>
 on behalf of Hans-Juergen Rennau >
Reply-To: Hans-Juergen Rennau >
Date: Friday, February 24, 2017 at 6:56 AM
To: Maximilian Gärber >, 
"basex-talk@mailman.uni-konstanz.de" 
>
Subject: Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can make is call 
XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an information language. If 
this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this reflects the novelty of 
the concept of an "information language". A book should be written about it. 
Which points to my ...

second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is nothing 
special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or am I wrong?) the 
first and only general-purpose programming language which is a pure expression 
language built upon the ground of a value model centered in the concept of 
resources composed of globally addressable, interrelated information (i.e. 
nodes).

With kind regards,
Hans-Jürgen


Maximilian Gärber > schrieb am 
21:36 Donnerstag, 23.Februar 2017:


Hi Marco,

from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
query language.

If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
about querying data(bases).

For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
routing, storage, etc).


Regards,

Max













2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere 
>:
> Hi to everyone,
>
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust the most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of interest to
> some of you.
>
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else and BTW
> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> architectures.
>
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological choice of
> XQuery.
>
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather XML- (and
> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
>
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
>
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
>
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages that can
> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Marco.
>

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[Hans-Juergen Rennau]

To put it mildly, I disagree. I think the greatest mistake one can make is call 
XQuery a query language. I prefer to say that it is an information language. If 
this appears to be an incomprehensible statement, this reflects the novelty of 
the concept of an "information language". A book should be written about it. 
Which points to my ...

second disagreement, which concerns your statement that there is nothing 
special about XQuery. I think XQuery is unique, as it is (or am I wrong?) the 
first and only general-purpose programming language which is a pure expression 
language built upon the ground of a value model centered in the concept of 
resources composed of globally addressable, interrelated information (i.e. 
nodes).
With kind regards,Hans-Jürgen
 

Maximilian Gärber  schrieb am 21:36 Donnerstag, 
23.Februar 2017:
 

 Hi Marco,

from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
query language.

If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
about querying data(bases).

For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
routing, storage, etc).


Regards,

Max













2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> Hi to everyone,
>
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust the most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of interest to
> some of you.
>
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else and BTW
> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> architectures.
>
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological choice of
> XQuery.
>
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather XML- (and
> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
>
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
>
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
>
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages that can
> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Marco.
>


   

Re: [basex-talk] Somewhat unusual question

[meumapple]

Hi Kendall,

I do not agree. A few considerations. If data are XML, I find it difficult to 
use a different language from XQuery. It is possible, of course, but much much 
more complex (why doing that?!). But native XML files are not the entire story. 
You can transform, for example, all of text data into an elegant XML working 
version and very very easily query it. I can do whatever I want with XQuery 
easily and deal with different kinds of data, so I do not agree at all. 




Il giorno 24 feb 2017, alle ore 00:37, Kendall Shaw  
ha scritto:

What the application is makes all the difference. If the purpose does not have 
to do with XML and XML in a database, then XQuery and BaseX is less likely to 
be appropriate.

Kendall

On 2/23/17, 12:36 PM, "basex-talk-boun...@mailman.uni-konstanz.de on behalf of 
Maximilian Gärber"  wrote:

  Hi Marco,

  from my experience, the best way to handle these types of arguments is
  to make clear that there is nothing 'special' about XQuery. It is a
  query language.

  If you have to compare BaseX to something that most Java developers
  will know, I'd use Hibernate and HQL, a library and DSL that is all
  about querying data(bases).

  For C# developers, LINQ would probably ring a bell.

  Of course there is a lot more to it, and when it comes to web
  applications, you can use it in almost every layer (templating,
  routing, storage, etc).


  Regards,

  Max













  2017-02-22 13:43 GMT+01:00 Marco Lettere :
> Hi to everyone,
> 
> probably this is not the right place for such a discussion but the BaseX
> communitiy is the one I'm better introduced to and the one I trust the most.
> So I hope that this somewhat unusual excursus will anyway be of interest to
> some of you.
> 
> As for myself I fell in love with XQuery and its power in terms of data
> manipulation many years ago. I wouldn't change it with anything else and BTW
> we're using it (thanks to the incredible BaseX runtime) much beyond
> data-processing being it the backbone of all our micro-service oriented
> architectures.
> 
> Now, to the point, in the near future I probably will be called to face a
> somewhat skeptical customer who will argue about the technological choice of
> XQuery.
> 
> My point will be to make a comparison with the technologies they're
> currently using and I would like to demonstrate that for a rather XML- (and
> in general data-) intensive workflow XQuery is perfectly suitable and
> probably better than many other alternatives.
> 
> I would tend to exclude XSLT because it would face similar opposition. I
> would also exclude languages at a lower level of abstraction like Java,
> Python, Javascript, C/C++ and so on for obvious architectural reasons.
> 
> But then only templating languages/engines come to my mind. Those would
> still be probably novel technologies to learn and wouldn't offer the
> structural, syntactic and semantic power of XQuery anyway.
> 
> So I ask you kindly, in order to complete my preparation on these matters,
> is there anyone that has experience with other tools or languages that can
> be compared with XQuery when used for XML querying, generation,
> transformation, templating, composition and so on?
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Marco.