Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 09:02:25PM -0400, Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are > talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not. In some sense multisig *alone* enables recursive covenants: a government that wan

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev
Good morning Russell, > On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:02 PM Russell O'Connor > wrote: > > > Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are > > talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not. > > > > That said, recursive covenants, the type that are most worrying,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 9:02 PM Russell O'Connor wrote: > Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are > talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not. > > That said, recursive covenants, the type that are most worrying, seems to > require some kind of OP_TWEA

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev
Bear in mind that when people are talking about enabling covenants, we are talking about whether OP_CAT should be allowed or not. That said, recursive covenants, the type that are most worrying, seems to require some kind of OP_TWEAK operation, and I haven't yet seen any evidence that this can be

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev
Good morning Dave, > On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 11:39:44AM -0700, Jeremy wrote: > > > However, I think the broader community is unconvinced by the cost benefit > > of arbitrary covenants. See > > https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6 > > as a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev
I agree with you David. I think rather unconstrained covenants are incredibly useful and important. Yes you can burn coins with them, you can also permanently limit the usability of certain coins (which is less destructive than burning them). But as Jeremy said, people are free to burn their coins.

[bitcoin-dev] Unlimited covenants, was Re: CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Jul 04, 2021 at 11:39:44AM -0700, Jeremy wrote: > However, I think the broader community is unconvinced by the cost benefit > of arbitrary covenants. See > https://medium.com/block-digest-mempool/my-worries-about-too-generalized-covenants-5eff33affbb6 > as a recent example. Therefore as a c

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 1:30 PM Jeremy wrote: > I don't really see the point of CHECKSIGFROMSTACKADD since it's not bound > to the txdata? When might you use this? > I don't feel strongly about *ADD. I just figured it might be useful to do a 2-of-3 between Alice, Bob and an Oracle signed value.

Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposals for Output Script Descriptors

2021-07-04 Thread Daniel Bayerdorffer via bitcoin-dev
Hello, I just wanted to put my two cents in, on the metal backup aspect. We make the Bitcoin Recovery Tag for a similar purpose. We use a fixed font, so using ' (apostrophe) or H/h are both acceptable. Most metal stamping tools are fixed width fonts. You can see a picture here... [ https://

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Jeremy via bitcoin-dev
> > Do you have concerns about sophisticated covenants, and if so, would you > mind describing them? Personally, not in particular worried about arbitrary covenants as I think that: 1 validation costs can be kept in check; 2 you're free to burn your coins it you want to. I *do* care that when we

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CHECKSIGFROMSTACK/{Verify} BIP for Bitcoin

2021-07-04 Thread Jeremy via bitcoin-dev
I don't really see the point of CHECKSIGFROMSTACKADD since it's not bound to the txdata? When might you use this? And yes -- "Add OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY to follow the semantics from bip340-342 when witness program is v1." is a bit light on detail for what the BIP would

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CheckSigFromStack for Arithmetic Values

2021-07-04 Thread ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev
Good morning Erik and Jeremy, > The "for" arithmetic here is largely to mean that this cleverness allows an > implementation of `OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK`, using arithmetic operation `OP_ADD`. > > To my mind this cleverness is more of an argument against ever enabling > `OP_ADD` and friends, LOL. >