Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process

2015-08-09 Thread Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev
On Saturday 8. August 2015 15.45.28 Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev wrote: Someone mentioned that when the backlog grows faster than it shrinks, that is a real problem. I don't think it is. It is a problem for those who don't wait for even one confirmation The mention you refer to was about the

[bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev
On 8/4/2015 4:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote: Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please. Consider how Bob will receive money using the Lightning Network. Bob receives a payment by applying a contract to his local payment channel, increasing the amount payable to him

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Alternative chain support for payment protocol

2015-08-09 Thread Ross Nicoll via bitcoin-dev
I'm cautious of using human-meaningful identifiers, especially any that might require a central repository, due to name collisions. Examples that could be complicated include BitcoinDark, Litedoge, and other names that base on existing coins. I think the ability to differentiate between test

[bitcoin-dev] Alternative chain support for payment protocol

2015-08-09 Thread Ross Nicoll via bitcoin-dev
BIP 70 currently lists two networks, main and test (inferred as testnet3) for payment protocol requests. This means that different testnets cannot be supported trivially, and the protocol cannot be used for alternative coins (or, lacks context to indicate which coin the request applies to,

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev
Tom, you appear to be misunderstanding how lightning network and micropayment hub-and-spoke models in general work. But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies). Nothing requires the payment hub to do this. On the contrary the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Alternative chain support for payment protocol

2015-08-09 Thread John L. Jegutanis via bitcoin-dev
Another possibility to support side|alt-chains is the bip44 coin type registry. A problem that hasn't been mentioned is that a coin can extend the protocol in an incompatible way (different protocol buffer format) so just changing the network field in the PaymentDetails message will not work. A

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Chris Pacia via bitcoin-dev
I'm glad Tom is bringing these points up. There seems to be an assumption by many that LN will be automatically awesome by virtue of it being technically feasible with having considered whether it is economically feasible or desirable. So much stock has been placed in LN as the solution to the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev
While we're on the subject of payment hubs / lightning network... I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and what new pieces of infrastructure need to get built to make it all work. A use-case to

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Fees and the block-finding process

2015-08-09 Thread Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote: On Saturday 8. August 2015 15.45.28 Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev wrote: Someone mentioned that when the backlog grows faster than it shrinks, that is a real problem. I don't think it

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
I suspect there is some amount of confusion here on terms. The hub is essentially swapping funds between payment channels. The hub's entire business is centered around having payment channels open with other hubs/users. If the hub requires user funds to open these channels... then the users

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
On the contrary those costs are clearly very low. Both the time value of money and operating expenses will be trivial with even a small volume of transactions. The true cost of operating a hub is clearly in the enhanced risk of loss. It's clear that risk of loss will be moderated by market

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev
Thanks Mark. Ok next obvious question (apologies for all of these but it seems you are the authority on Lightning here). Is the Lightning system limited in the number of hops there can be in the payment channel? I am looking at the initial Lightning slides presented in February and it looks like

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev
Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does it answer my concerns of the exploding cost of the network the more interconnected it it? On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote: I suspect there is some amount of confusion

[bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread info--- via bitcoin-dev
Hello all, one argument I often read on this mailing list is that it's essential to reward miners with transaction fees at some point to secure the network. Off-chain transactions, whether it's Lightning or something else, potentially extract fees, which may otherwise be paid to miners, if the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev
I thought it's worth mentioning there is a specific Lightning Network development mailing list at http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightning-dev and already some pretty interesting explanations in the archives. ___ bitcoin-dev mailing

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
That was not in reply to you. On 08/09/2015 03:09 PM, Hector Chu wrote: Right, you've stated a bunch of facts, but how does it answer my concerns of the exploding cost of the network the more interconnected it it? On 9 August 2015 at 23:06, Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Joseph Poon via bitcoin-dev
Hi Gavin, On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 06:44:08PM -0400, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev wrote: I'd love to see somebody write up a higher-level description of what the user experience is like, what communication happens underneath, and what new pieces of infrastructure need to get built to make it

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread Joseph Poon via bitcoin-dev
Hi, On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 12:20:36AM +0200, info--- via bitcoin-dev wrote: Off-chain transactions, whether it's Lightning or something else, potentially extract fees, which may otherwise be paid to miners, if the transactions were actually on-chain. In this context, wouldn't it be

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev
On 8/9/2015 2:45 PM, Hector Chu wrote: Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub always sums to zero. That describes the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Patrick Strateman via bitcoin-dev
I would be surprised if the rates charged to consumers for BTC credit aren't much closer to today's BTC borrowing rates. The borrowing rates you're talking about involve the risk of default. In lightning the hubs funds are not at risk so long as they maintain control of the private keys. The

Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is

2015-08-09 Thread Joseph Poon via bitcoin-dev
Hi Hector, On Sun, Aug 09, 2015 at 09:48:41PM +0100, Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev wrote: Is the Lightning system limited in the number of hops there can be in the payment channel? I am looking at the initial Lightning slides presented in February and it looks like the locktime decrements by

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread Rune K. Svendsen via bitcoin-dev
Nodes in the Lightning network earn fees that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the Lightning network. The base Bitcoin layer can't handle the transaction throughout that Lightning can, so the Lightning fees were never available to Bitcoin miners in the first place. What Lightning does is