Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread Leo Wandersleb via bitcoin-dev
On 08/10/2015 05:39 AM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: On Monday 10. August 2015 07.57.30 Rune K. Svendsen via bitcoin-dev wrote: What Lightning does is raise the value of a transaction on the block chain. Imagine you're a Lightning node, and in order to collect your fees, that you've

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 08:14:08PM +0100, Hector Chu wrote: On 10 August 2015 at 19:50, Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org wrote: ...but I think at present the time value of bitcoin is effectively zero Since bitcoin is liquid you forget that one can just sell

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev
On Monday 10. August 2015 12.53.33 Leo Wandersleb via bitcoin-dev wrote: The reason of it being faster makes no sense, as your example the channel has been open for a month then he really doesn't care it takes 1, 10 or 50 blocks before his transaction is included. What is 5 hours wait on a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev
Nonsense. Hoping that the bitcoin price will rise is called speculation. Hub operators won't want to do that, since prices can go down as well as up. The money markets and government bond yield curve prices risk-free rates of return, a guaranteed rise in value. These rates are always positive. On

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread GC via bitcoin-dev
Following this, Bitcoin and proposed payment networks like LN will be competing for fees based on duration and cost to process transactions. If fees on Bitcoin network stay low and zero-conf txns are possible, competing payment networks will need some very special features to survive and make

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-10 Thread Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev
On Monday 10. August 2015 07.57.30 Rune K. Svendsen via bitcoin-dev wrote: What Lightning does is raise the value of a transaction on the block chain. Imagine you're a Lightning node, and in order to collect your fees, that you've earned over the past month, you have to settle on the

[bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread info--- via bitcoin-dev
Hello all, one argument I often read on this mailing list is that it's essential to reward miners with transaction fees at some point to secure the network. Off-chain transactions, whether it's Lightning or something else, potentially extract fees, which may otherwise be paid to miners, if the

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread Joseph Poon via bitcoin-dev
Hi, On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 12:20:36AM +0200, info--- via bitcoin-dev wrote: Off-chain transactions, whether it's Lightning or something else, potentially extract fees, which may otherwise be paid to miners, if the transactions were actually on-chain. In this context, wouldn't it be

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees

2015-08-09 Thread Rune K. Svendsen via bitcoin-dev
Nodes in the Lightning network earn fees that wouldn't be there if it weren't for the Lightning network. The base Bitcoin layer can't handle the transaction throughout that Lightning can, so the Lightning fees were never available to Bitcoin miners in the first place. What Lightning does is