Re: [bitcoin-dev] CTV Meeting #5 Agenda (Tuesday, March 7th, 12:00 PT)

2022-03-10 Thread Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev 
On Wed, Mar 9, 2022, 14:14 Michael Folkson 
wrote:

> Hi Jorge
>
> > Since this has meetings like taproot, it seems it's going to end up
> being added in bitcoin core no matter what.
>
> Anyone can set up a IRC channel, anyone can organize a IRC meeting, anyone
> can announce meetings on the mailing list. Just because an individual is
> enthusiastic for a soft fork proposal does not imply it has community
> consensus or that it is likely to be merged into Core in the short term or
> long term. It is true that other soft fork proposal authors/contributors
> are not taking the approach Jeremy is taking and are instead working
> quietly in the background. I prefer the latter approach so soon after
> Taproot activation but I look forward to hearing about the progress made on
> other proposals in due course.
>

I hope you're right and not every proposal that gets to have a meeting gets
deployed.

> Should we start the conversation on how to resist it when that happens?
> We should talk more about activation mechanisms and how users should be
> able to actively resist them more.
>
> I can only speak for myself but if activation was being pursued for a soft
> fork that didn't have community consensus I would seek to join you in an
> effort to resist that activation. Taproot (pre-activation discussion) set a
> strong precedent in terms of community outreach and patiently building
> community consensus over many years. If that precedent was thrown out I
> think we are in danger of creating the chaos that most of us would seek to
> avoid. You are free to start whatever conversation you want but personally
> until Jeremy or whoever else embarks on an activation attempt I'd rather
> forget about activation discussions for a while.
>

I strongly disagree taproot set a strong precedent in terms of listening to
criticism and looking for consensus. Lots of legitimate criticisms seemed
to be simply ignored.
I really think it set a bad preference, even if taproot as deployed is
good, which I'm not sure about.

> What is ST? If it may be a reason to oppose CTV, why not talk about it
> more explicitly so that others can understand the criticisms?
>
> ST is short for Speedy Trial, the activation mechanism used for Taproot. I
> have implored people on many occasions now to not mix discussion of a soft
> fork proposal with discussion of an activation mechanism. Those discussions
> can happen in parallel but they are entirely independent topics of
> discussion. Mixing them is misleading at best and manipulative at worst.
>

Thanks. Yes, those topics were ignored before "let's focus on the proposal
first" and afterwards "let's just deploy this and we can discuss this in
more detail for the next proposal".
And I thonk lots of valid criticism was ignored and disregarded.


> It seems that criticism isn't really that welcomed and is just explained
> away.
> Perhaps it is just my subjective perception. Sometimes it feels we're
> going from "don't trust, verify" to "just trust jeremy rubin", i hope this
> is really just my subjective perception. Because I think it would be really
> bad that we started to blindly trust people like that, and specially jeremy.
>
> I think we should generally avoid getting personal on this mailing list.
> However, although I agree that Jeremy has done some things in the past that
> have been over-exuberant to put it mildly, as long as he listens to
> community feedback and doesn't try to force through a contentious soft fork
> earlier than the community is comfortable with I think his work can add
> material value to the future soft fork discussion. I entirely agree that we
> can't get into a situation where any one individual can push through a soft
> fork without getting community consensus and deep technical review from as
> many qualified people as possible. That can take a long time (the demands
> on long term contributors' time are vast) and hence anyone without serious
> levels of patience should probably exclusively work on sidechains, altcoins
> etc (or non-consensus changes in Bitcoin) rather than Bitcoin consensus
> changes.
>

You're right, we shouldn't get personal. We shouldn't ignore feedback from
me, mark friedenbach or luke just because of who it comes from.
I don't think jeremy listens to feedback, judging from taproot activation
discussions, I felt very much ignores by him and others. Luke was usually
ignored. Mark criticisms on taproot, not the activation itself, seemed to
be ignored as well. I mean, if somebody refuted his concerns somewhere, I
missed it.
But even if I believe jremey has malicious intentions and doesn't listen to
the community, you're still right, we shouldn't get personal. I shoud
assume the same malevolent intentions I assume jeremy has from everyone
else.

Thanks
> Michael
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> Keybase: michaelfolkson
> PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3
>
> --- Original Message ---
> On

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CTV Meeting #5 Agenda (Tuesday, March 7th, 12:00 PT)

2022-03-09 Thread Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev 
Hi Jorge

> Since this has meetings like taproot, it seems it's going to end up being 
> added in bitcoin core no matter what.

Anyone can set up a IRC channel, anyone can organize a IRC meeting, anyone can 
announce meetings on the mailing list. Just because an individual is 
enthusiastic for a soft fork proposal does not imply it has community consensus 
or that it is likely to be merged into Core in the short term or long term. It 
is true that other soft fork proposal authors/contributors are not taking the 
approach Jeremy is taking and are instead working quietly in the background. I 
prefer the latter approach so soon after Taproot activation but I look forward 
to hearing about the progress made on other proposals in due course.

> Should we start the conversation on how to resist it when that happens?
We should talk more about activation mechanisms and how users should be able to 
actively resist them more.

I can only speak for myself but if activation was being pursued for a soft fork 
that didn't have community consensus I would seek to join you in an effort to 
resist that activation. Taproot (pre-activation discussion) set a strong 
precedent in terms of community outreach and patiently building community 
consensus over many years. If that precedent was thrown out I think we are in 
danger of creating the chaos that most of us would seek to avoid. You are free 
to start whatever conversation you want but personally until Jeremy or whoever 
else embarks on an activation attempt I'd rather forget about activation 
discussions for a while.

> What is ST? If it may be a reason to oppose CTV, why not talk about it more 
> explicitly so that others can understand the criticisms?

ST is short for Speedy Trial, the activation mechanism used for Taproot. I have 
implored people on many occasions now to not mix discussion of a soft fork 
proposal with discussion of an activation mechanism. Those discussions can 
happen in parallel but they are entirely independent topics of discussion. 
Mixing them is misleading at best and manipulative at worst.

> It seems that criticism isn't really that welcomed and is just explained away.
Perhaps it is just my subjective perception. Sometimes it feels we're going 
from "don't trust, verify" to "just trust jeremy rubin", i hope this is really 
just my subjective perception. Because I think it would be really bad that we 
started to blindly trust people like that, and specially jeremy.

I think we should generally avoid getting personal on this mailing list. 
However, although I agree that Jeremy has done some things in the past that 
have been over-exuberant to put it mildly, as long as he listens to community 
feedback and doesn't try to force through a contentious soft fork earlier than 
the community is comfortable with I think his work can add material value to 
the future soft fork discussion. I entirely agree that we can't get into a 
situation where any one individual can push through a soft fork without getting 
community consensus and deep technical review from as many qualified people as 
possible. That can take a long time (the demands on long term contributors' 
time are vast) and hence anyone without serious levels of patience should 
probably exclusively work on sidechains, altcoins etc (or non-consensus changes 
in Bitcoin) rather than Bitcoin consensus changes.

Thanks
Michael

--
Michael Folkson
Email: michaelfolkson at [protonmail.com](http://protonmail.com/)
Keybase: michaelfolkson
PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3

--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, March 9th, 2022 at 11:02 AM, Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev 
 wrote:

> Since this has meetings like taproot, it seems it's going to end up being 
> added in bitcoin core no matter what.
>
> Should we start the conversation on how to resist it when that happens?
> We should talk more about activation mechanisms and how users should be able 
> to actively resist them more.
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2022, 03:32 Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev 
>  wrote:
>
>> * Tuesday, March 8th.
>>
>> I think Noon PT == 8pm UTC?
>>
>> but dont trust me i cant even tell what day is what.
>> --
>> [@JeremyRubin](https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin)
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 6:50 PM Jeremy Rubin  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> There will be a CTV meeting tomorrow at noon PT. Agenda below:
>>>
>>> 1) Sapio Taproot Support Update / Request for Review (20 Minutes)
>>> - Experimental support for Taproot merged on master 
>>> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio
>>> 2) Transaction Sponsoring v.s CPFP/RBF (20 Minutes)
>>> - 
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019879.html
>>> - 
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
>>> 3) Jamesob's Non-Recursive Vaults Post (20 minutes)
>>> - 
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020067.html
>>> 4) What the heck is everyone talking about on the mailing

Re: [bitcoin-dev] CTV Meeting #5 Agenda (Tuesday, March 7th, 12:00 PT)

2022-03-09 Thread Jorge Timón via bitcoin-dev 
Since this has meetings like taproot, it seems it's going to end up being
added in bitcoin core no matter what.

Should we start the conversation on how to resist it when that happens?
We should talk more about activation mechanisms and how users should be
able to actively resist them more.


On Tue, Mar 8, 2022, 03:32 Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> * Tuesday, March 8th.
>
> I think Noon PT == 8pm UTC?
>
> but dont trust me i cant even tell what day is what.
> --
> @JeremyRubin 
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 6:50 PM Jeremy Rubin 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> There will be a CTV meeting tomorrow at noon PT. Agenda below:
>>
>> 1) Sapio Taproot Support Update / Request for Review (20 Minutes)
>> - Experimental support for Taproot merged on master
>> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio
>> 2) Transaction Sponsoring v.s CPFP/RBF (20 Minutes)
>> -
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019879.html
>> -
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
>> 3) Jamesob's Non-Recursive Vaults Post (20 minutes)
>> -
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020067.html
>> 4) What the heck is everyone talking about on the mailing list all of the
>> sudden (30 minutes)
>> - EVICT, TLUV, FOLD, Lisp, OP_ANNEX, Drivechain Covenants, Jets, Etc
>> 5) Q (30 mins)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>> --
>> @JeremyRubin 
>>
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Re: [bitcoin-dev] CTV Meeting #5 Agenda (Tuesday, March 7th, 12:00 PT)

2022-03-07 Thread Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev 
* Tuesday, March 8th.

I think Noon PT == 8pm UTC?

but dont trust me i cant even tell what day is what.
--
@JeremyRubin 


On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 6:50 PM Jeremy Rubin 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> There will be a CTV meeting tomorrow at noon PT. Agenda below:
>
> 1) Sapio Taproot Support Update / Request for Review (20 Minutes)
> - Experimental support for Taproot merged on master
> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio
> 2) Transaction Sponsoring v.s CPFP/RBF (20 Minutes)
> -
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019879.html
> -
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
> 3) Jamesob's Non-Recursive Vaults Post (20 minutes)
> -
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020067.html
> 4) What the heck is everyone talking about on the mailing list all of the
> sudden (30 minutes)
> - EVICT, TLUV, FOLD, Lisp, OP_ANNEX, Drivechain Covenants, Jets, Etc
> 5) Q (30 mins)
>
> Best,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> --
> @JeremyRubin 
>
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[bitcoin-dev] CTV Meeting #5 Agenda (Tuesday, March 7th, 12:00 PT)

2022-03-07 Thread Jeremy Rubin via bitcoin-dev 
Hi all,

There will be a CTV meeting tomorrow at noon PT. Agenda below:

1) Sapio Taproot Support Update / Request for Review (20 Minutes)
- Experimental support for Taproot merged on master
https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio
2) Transaction Sponsoring v.s CPFP/RBF (20 Minutes)
-
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019879.html
-
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html
3) Jamesob's Non-Recursive Vaults Post (20 minutes)
-
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020067.html
4) What the heck is everyone talking about on the mailing list all of the
sudden (30 minutes)
- EVICT, TLUV, FOLD, Lisp, OP_ANNEX, Drivechain Covenants, Jets, Etc
5) Q (30 mins)

Best,

Jeremy


--
@JeremyRubin 
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