Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Hearn
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:40 AM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote: optional uint64 allowfeetag number=1000 Let's just use a normal/low tag number. The extensions mechanism is great for people who want to extend the protocol outside the core development process. It'd be weird

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Drak
I dont like the idea of putting the min fee in the hands of the receiver. Seems like that will work against the best interests of senders in the long run. Why not try a different path of calculating the min fee like difficulty retarget. You can analyse the last 2016 blocks to find the average fee

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Hearn
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote: I dont like the idea of putting the min fee in the hands of the receiver. Seems like that will work against the best interests of senders in the long run. Senders have no interest in ever attaching any kind of fee, which is one

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Peter Todd
On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 11:40:35AM +1000, Gavin Andresen wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:44 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: PPv1 doesn't have any notion of fee unfortunately. I suppose it could be added easily, but we also need to launch the existing feature set. Lets bang out a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Peter Todd
On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 11:09:51AM +, Drak wrote: On 3 December 2013 11:03, Peter Todd p...@petertodd.org wrote: UI once both are implemented is to not show anything in the default case, and explain to the user why they have to pay extra in the unusual case where they are spending a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Peter Todd
On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 12:29:03PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote: Making it fee-per-kilobyte is a bad idea, in my opinion; users don't care how many kilobytes their transactions are, and they will just be confused

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Gavin Andresen
Wouldn't the idea be that the user always sees 10mBTC no matter what, but the receiver may receive less if the user decides to pay with a huge transaction? If users want to pay with a huge transaction then it seems to me the user should cover that cost. Allowing users to pay merchants with

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Hearn
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote: If users want to pay with a huge transaction then it seems to me the user should cover that cost. Allowing users to pay merchants with 100K transactions full of dust and expecting them to eat the cost seems like a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Gavin Andresen
A merchant can always refuse the payment and refund it if that's a practical problem. No, they can't, at least not in bitcoin-qt: when the user pokes the SEND button, the transaction is broadcast on the network, and then the merchant is also told with the Payment/PaymentACK round-trip.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Drak
On 3 December 2013 11:46, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote: If users want to pay with a huge transaction then it seems to me the user should cover that cost. Allowing users to pay merchants with 100K transactions

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Peter Todd
On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 12:57:23PM +0100, Taylor Gerring wrote: On Dec 3, 2013, at 12:29 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: It may be acceptable that receivers don't always receive exactly what they requested, at least for person-to-business transactions. For person-to-person

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Hearn
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Taylor Gerring taylor.gerr...@gmail.comwrote: Why should there be two classes of transactions? Where does paying a local business at a farmer’s stand lie in that realm? Transactions should work the same regardless of who is on the receiving end. Lots and lots

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Taylor Gerring
On Dec 3, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Taylor Gerring taylor.gerr...@gmail.com wrote: Why should there be two classes of transactions? Where does paying a local business at a farmer’s stand lie in that realm? Transactions should work

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Mike Hearn
Heh. People feel rises in sales tax elsewhere too. When VAT rises merchants all raise their prices, they don't normally swallow it (or if they do, they make a big fuss over how awesome they are). The US system is a complete pain in the ass. You never know how much money you actually need to pay

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Quinn Harris
The merchant wants to include a fee to ensure the transaction is confirmed which is dependent on the fee per kilobyte, but they don't want to pay unexpectedly high fees. So what about including a min_fee_per_kilobyte and a max_fee in PaymentDetails describing what fees the merchant will pay.

[Bitcoin-development] Suggestion: easy way to restore wallet.dat backup

2013-12-03 Thread Dâniel Fraga
I posted this on bitcoin-user, but nobody replied, so I'm trying here. Today, when a user uses bitcoin-qt client, it can make a backup of wallet.dat easily through menu, but when he/she needs to restore this backup, he/she must copy the file to the correct folder and execute

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread Jeremy Spilman
allowfee: Allow up to allowfee satoshis to be deducted from the amount paid to be used to pay Bitcoin network transaction fees. A wallet implementation must not reduce the amount paid for fees more than allowfee, and transaction fees must be equal to or greater than the amount reduced.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Suggestion: easy way to restore wallet.dat backup

2013-12-03 Thread Casey Rodarmor
On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Dâniel Fraga frag...@gmail.com wrote: Today, when a user uses bitcoin-qt client, it can make a backup of wallet.dat easily through menu, but when he/she needs to restore this backup, he/she must copy the file to the correct folder and execute

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients

2013-12-03 Thread kjj
After reading all 99 messages in this thread, I think allowfee is just about perfect. It effectively lets merchants to give an allowance against the purchase price for network fees, if they choose. It is still up to the sender (and/or the sender's software) to get the fees right. Sometimes