Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Wladimir]

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:23 AM, Roy Badami  wrote:

> Oh, I see - so it was.  It wasn't announced here though - is there
> some other list I need to be on, too?  It would be nice if
> announcements like this were posted to a mailing list as well as
> bitcointalk.org (is there a bitcoin-announce list that I missed?  If
> not, maybe there should be)
>

Yes could have been announced here too.
We announced the rc1 here but not the final release.
...maybe we should add a list of places to announce to the release process.

Wladimir
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Roy Badami]

On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:55:02PM +, Drak wrote:
> On 9 December 2013 13:52, Roy Badami  wrote:
> >
> >  On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 01:39:51PM +, Drak wrote:
> > > Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points
> > downloads
> > > to 0.8.5
> >
> > Perhaps because 0.8.6 hasn't been released yet?  Or did I miss the
> > announcement?  I think it makes sense that release candidates are not
> > promoted on bitcoin.org.
> 
> 
> It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit

Oh, I see - so it was.  It wasn't announced here though - is there
some other list I need to be on, too?  It would be nice if
announcements like this were posted to a mailing list as well as
bitcointalk.org (is there a bitcoin-announce list that I missed?  If
not, maybe there should be)

roy


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Rick Wesson]

+1


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
>
>> The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
>> the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
>> focused on.
>>
>>
> That is like saying "We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
> There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
> I'm personally focused on."
>
> Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
> that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
> working.
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
>
>
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[kjj]

Ryan Carboni wrote:


Bitcoin lacks a Central Bank.


This is a feature, not a bug.

Also, this is offtopic.  Political debate is thataway ->.

bitcoin-development is for development and technical discussion.
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Ryan Carboni]

You're just closed minded.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Jeff Garzik  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni  wrote:
> > It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
> > people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
> other
> > currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
> > majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
> > are using the exchanges.
>
> Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
> with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
>
> --
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> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
>
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Ryan Carboni]

Bitcoin is made of many parts, yes, but not all parts were developed
simultaneously.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
>
>> The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
>> the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
>> focused on.
>>
>>
> That is like saying "We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
> There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
> I'm personally focused on."
>
> Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
> that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
> working.
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
>
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Allen Piscitello]

I've got a better idea.  Ben Bernake needs a new job.  Let's just let him
set the block reward.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Jameson Lopp  wrote:

> To piggyback on Jeff,
>
> Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
> outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
> outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.
>
> "The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
> or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
> personally focused on."
>
> Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
> be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
> rejected by a miner's peers.
> --
> Jameson Lopp
> Software Engineer
> Bronto Software, Inc
>
> On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni 
> wrote:
> >> It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
> >> people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
> other
> >> currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
> >> majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real
> goods
> >> are using the exchanges.
> >
> > Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
> > with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
> >
>
>
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Jameson Lopp]

To piggyback on Jeff,

Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.

"The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
personally focused on."

Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
rejected by a miner's peers.
--
Jameson Lopp
Software Engineer
Bronto Software, Inc

On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni  wrote:
>> It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
>> people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
>> currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
>> majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
>> are using the exchanges.
> 
> Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
> with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
> 

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Mike Caldwell]

For what it's worth, once upon a time I pushed this agenda on Bitcointalk.  I'd 
say early 2011 or so.  The response I got was so strong and unanimous in favor 
of this point being absolutely non-negotiable that if the money supply were 
anything other than fixed, Bitcoin may as well be pretend e-dollars.  I was not 
just persuaded against it, I was put in my place.

I believe that if there ever becomes a consensus that Bitcoin's inflation 
parameters were a show-stopper for the Bitcoin economy, that the power to 
correct it lies with merchants, who would vote for changing the rules.  I 
believe they would do this not by changing Bitcoin, but by accepting, in 
parallel, a brand new alt coin that reflects the consensus as to how the 
inflation should be.  I believe such an alt coin would have its genesis at 
around the time that consensus moved toward accepting inflation, rather than 
adopting the seignorage of some other alt coin out there today.

Mike/Casascius


From: Ryan Carboni [mailto:ryan.jc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 3:24 PM
To: apoels...@wpsoftware.net
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many people 
bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other currencies 
will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The majority of people 
using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price of 
Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra 
mailto:as...@sfu.ca>> wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement Proposal
> and is also a very rough draft of one.
>
Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
change.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Jeff Garzik]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni  wrote:
> It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
> people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
> currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
> majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
> are using the exchanges.

Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Ryan Carboni]

It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price
of Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
> > This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement
> Proposal
> > and is also a very rough draft of one.
> >
>
> Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
> formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
> would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
> obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
> change.
>
> --
> Andrew Poelstra
> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
> Web:   http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>
> "If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney
>  worries about, I would have finished high school."   --Edward Snowden
>
>
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Gavin Andresen]

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni  wrote:

> The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
> the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
> focused on.
>
>
That is like saying "We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
I'm personally focused on."

Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
working.

-- 
--
Gavin Andresen
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[Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

[Ryan Carboni]

This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement Proposal
and is also a very rough draft of one.

Bitcoin lacks a Central Bank. This is good and bad. A central bank benefits
those with political connections. But Bitcoin lacks price stability, this
generates menu costs, and incentivizes speculation. I propose the creation
of a monetary authority for Bitcoin that sets block reward to a new
mathematical formula.

The velocity of the Bitcoins that are in circulation likely approaches
100,000x per year as compared to 1x - 4x for the USD. This in itself is not
bad. But given that only 10% to 20% of Bitcoins are circulating, this means
that the price of Bitcoin is decided largely through speculation. In fact
the price of a Bitcoin is irrelevant to those who use Bitcoins as a
currency because it appears the majority of coins being used are
immediately being sold and repurchased in the exchanges for the sole
purpose of buying goods.

Unless Bitcoins can be used to purchase intermediate goods and have a
closed economic ecosystem, Bitcoin will be too vulnerable to speculation
and would not be a viable currency. But the development of a closed
economic ecosystem is stymied by the uncertainty of Bitcoin prices and
speculation.

Fortunately the infrastructure for transacting Bitcoin has long been
established, with many major exchanges. Nearly all major exchanges announce
recent prices. At the point when a block is generated, the miner will also
add the exchange price of bitcoin between various other currencies and
crypto-currencies to the blockchain. The exchanges that are kept track of
could be hard coded into Bitcoin or the miner could choose, how this works
is not something I'm personally focused on.

With every new block, the miner will compare the cumulative percentage
change in the exchange price of Bitcoin over the previous 432 blocks. The
standard deviation of the percentage change in exchange rates will be
calculated. Outliers will be excluded, this is so that in case x-currency
suffers from hyperinflation, the x-currency will be ignored. It is
extremely unlikely for all the world’s currencies to be suffering from
hyperinflation caused by monetary expansion as opposed to a supply shock.

Every 432 blocks the block reward will be reevaluated. For every 5%
increase in the geometric mean of Bitcoin exchange rates in relation to the
world’s currencies would increase the block reward by 3%. A 5% decrease in
the geometric mean of Bitcoin exchange rates will decrease the block reward
by 3%. Changes in the exchange rates of less than 5% will not alter the
block reward.

The minimum block reward will be one Bitcoin.



Why is this better then the current system? Very simple, we are still
dependent on banks. Currently Bitcoin is poised to replace Visa and Paypal,
not the Federal Reserve. Bitcoin will be less efficient then Visa and
Paypal because it takes times to transfer money out of exchanges to one's
bank account and vice versa. In order for Bitcoin to replace the US dollar,
it needs to not be a more complex version of a debit card. It needs to have
a closed economic ecosystem, where all transactions are done in Bitcoin
(Consumer > Merchant > Wholesaler > Factory), and the only people who use
the exchanges are merchants who need to and those who wish to gamble on
Bitcoin.

In order for Bitcoin to have widespread acceptance, it needs price
stability. My proposal won't peg the Bitcoin to any one currency, but it
would reduce month to month variability in relation to a basket of
currencies and discourage views that it's speculative.

Look at the current system, it's not healthy and it's not a currency.
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[Bitcoin-development] [Patch] bitcoin for Fedora >= 20

[Harald Hoyer]

Interesting post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364877.0

Would be worth a try :-)

I'd like to see bitcoin running on Fedora >= 20 out of the box.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Jeff Garzik]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Drak  wrote:
> looking sticky posts at bitcointalk like this one:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364353.0. Was that an official
> announcement?

Yes.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Wladimir]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:42 PM, Drak  wrote:

> actly the point and the moment they are publicly available you cannot stop
> people talking about it or noticing it, or posting official looking sticky
> posts at bitcointalk like this one:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364353.0. Was that an official
> announcement?
>

Yes, it is.

Wladimir
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Drak]

On 9 December 2013 15:35, Wladimir  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Drak  wrote:
>
>>
>> IMO, to avoid that, no files should be placed online unless they are the
>> official release.
>>
>
> They *are* the official release as soon as they're uploaded. We may wait
> for some extra gitian builds to be more confident and make the announcement
> on the forums and such, but the downloads themselves don't change anymore.
>

That is exactly the point and the moment they are publicly available you
cannot stop people talking about it or noticing it, or posting official
looking sticky posts at bitcointalk like this one:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364353.0. Was that an official
announcement?

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Wladimir]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Drak  wrote:

>
> IMO, to avoid that, no files should be placed online unless they are the
> official release.
>

They *are* the official release as soon as they're uploaded. We may wait
for some extra gitian builds to be more confident and make the announcement
on the forums and such, but the downloads themselves don't change anymore.

It really doesn't matter in what order the different places are updated, as
long as the news is propagated everywhere within a reasonable time-span of
say a day. Requiring a certain order would require unnecessary coordination.

Don't make problems where they don't exist, we have enough actual issues.

Wladimir
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Drak  wrote:
> Why would it be made available for download at sourceforge.net if it's not
> actually released? The files are available here:

Because it takes time to put the files up, propagate to mirrors, check
by multiple people that the downloads work an the signatures pass.

Every release comes with a release announcement, you'll know its out
when you see the release announcement.

The alternative is that announcements go out and the files are not
correct, or hide the files in the release pipeline and allow less
public participation in the release workflow. I think that would be
unfortunate.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Drak]

On 9 December 2013 15:07, Gregory Maxwell  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Drak  wrote:
> > It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit
>
> It has not been released. It's queued for announcement. We were
> waiting for another independant gitian build before sending out the
> announcement.
>

Why would it be made available for download at sourceforge.net if it's not
actually released? The files are available here:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/bitcoin/files/Bitcoin/bitcoin-0.8.6/ and
people watch the sf rss feeds etc...
Seems to me like there needs to be a better release workflow. As far as the
world is concerned, they are downloading the 0.8.6 and there is a lot of
community buzz about it already.
IMO, to avoid that, no files should be placed online unless they are the
official release.

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Drak  wrote:
> It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit

It has not been released. It's queued for announcement. We were
waiting for another independant gitian build before sending out the
announcement.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Drak]

On 9 December 2013 13:52, Roy Badami  wrote:
>
>  On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 01:39:51PM +, Drak wrote:
> > Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points
> downloads
> > to 0.8.5
>
> Perhaps because 0.8.6 hasn't been released yet?  Or did I miss the
> announcement?  I think it makes sense that release candidates are not
> promoted on bitcoin.org.


It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Roy Badami]

On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 01:39:51PM +, Drak wrote:
> Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points downloads
> to 0.8.5

Perhaps because 0.8.6 hasn't been released yet?  Or did I miss the
announcement?  I think it makes sense that release candidates are not
promoted on bitcoin.org.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

[Drak]

Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points downloads
to 0.8.5
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Dedicated server for bitcoin.org, your thoughts?

[Roy Badami]

> The bitcoin.org domain is controlled by me, Sirius, and an anonymous
> person. Control will not be lost if Sirius becomes unavailable.

I know this will be a controversial viewpoint in some quarters, but
I'm not a fan of anonymity, or of pseudonyms.  As far as I know
(please correct me if I'm wrong) all the core devs go by their real
names with the exception of Satoshi (and I would hope he no longer has
commit access? - only because I would hope that no-one has
pseudonymous commit access these days).  I don't see why this should
be different for the domain, the DNS and the rest of the
infrastructure...

Although that's separate from the question of who the registrant of
the domain should be (the registrant being the closest thing a domain
has to a recorded legal owner).  Who currently purports to be the
current legal owner of the domain?

IMHO the registrant should obviously be real and not WhoisGuard -
anonymous stuff like this always looks shady.  And surely the Bitcoin
Foundation is the obvious candidate to own the domain (just like
kernel.org is owned by the Linux Foundation).  But this may all be
moot unless the current legal owners are willing to assign the
domain...

roy


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