Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

2013-12-09 Thread Drak
On 9 December 2013 13:52, Roy Badami r...@gnomon.org.uk wrote:

  On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 01:39:51PM +, Drak wrote:
  Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points
 downloads
  to 0.8.5

 Perhaps because 0.8.6 hasn't been released yet?  Or did I miss the
 announcement?  I think it makes sense that release candidates are not
 promoted on bitcoin.org.


It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

2013-12-09 Thread Gregory Maxwell
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote:
 Why would it be made available for download at sourceforge.net if it's not
 actually released? The files are available here:

Because it takes time to put the files up, propagate to mirrors, check
by multiple people that the downloads work an the signatures pass.

Every release comes with a release announcement, you'll know its out
when you see the release announcement.

The alternative is that announcements go out and the files are not
correct, or hide the files in the release pipeline and allow less
public participation in the release workflow. I think that would be
unfortunate.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

2013-12-09 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote:
 looking sticky posts at bitcointalk like this one:
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364353.0. Was that an official
 announcement?

Yes.

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[Bitcoin-development] [Patch] bitcoin for Fedora = 20

2013-12-09 Thread Harald Hoyer
Interesting post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364877.0

Would be worth a try :-)

I'd like to see bitcoin running on Fedora = 20 out of the box.

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[Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement Proposal
and is also a very rough draft of one.

Bitcoin lacks a Central Bank. This is good and bad. A central bank benefits
those with political connections. But Bitcoin lacks price stability, this
generates menu costs, and incentivizes speculation. I propose the creation
of a monetary authority for Bitcoin that sets block reward to a new
mathematical formula.

The velocity of the Bitcoins that are in circulation likely approaches
100,000x per year as compared to 1x - 4x for the USD. This in itself is not
bad. But given that only 10% to 20% of Bitcoins are circulating, this means
that the price of Bitcoin is decided largely through speculation. In fact
the price of a Bitcoin is irrelevant to those who use Bitcoins as a
currency because it appears the majority of coins being used are
immediately being sold and repurchased in the exchanges for the sole
purpose of buying goods.

Unless Bitcoins can be used to purchase intermediate goods and have a
closed economic ecosystem, Bitcoin will be too vulnerable to speculation
and would not be a viable currency. But the development of a closed
economic ecosystem is stymied by the uncertainty of Bitcoin prices and
speculation.

Fortunately the infrastructure for transacting Bitcoin has long been
established, with many major exchanges. Nearly all major exchanges announce
recent prices. At the point when a block is generated, the miner will also
add the exchange price of bitcoin between various other currencies and
crypto-currencies to the blockchain. The exchanges that are kept track of
could be hard coded into Bitcoin or the miner could choose, how this works
is not something I'm personally focused on.

With every new block, the miner will compare the cumulative percentage
change in the exchange price of Bitcoin over the previous 432 blocks. The
standard deviation of the percentage change in exchange rates will be
calculated. Outliers will be excluded, this is so that in case x-currency
suffers from hyperinflation, the x-currency will be ignored. It is
extremely unlikely for all the world’s currencies to be suffering from
hyperinflation caused by monetary expansion as opposed to a supply shock.

Every 432 blocks the block reward will be reevaluated. For every 5%
increase in the geometric mean of Bitcoin exchange rates in relation to the
world’s currencies would increase the block reward by 3%. A 5% decrease in
the geometric mean of Bitcoin exchange rates will decrease the block reward
by 3%. Changes in the exchange rates of less than 5% will not alter the
block reward.

The minimum block reward will be one Bitcoin.



Why is this better then the current system? Very simple, we are still
dependent on banks. Currently Bitcoin is poised to replace Visa and Paypal,
not the Federal Reserve. Bitcoin will be less efficient then Visa and
Paypal because it takes times to transfer money out of exchanges to one's
bank account and vice versa. In order for Bitcoin to replace the US dollar,
it needs to not be a more complex version of a debit card. It needs to have
a closed economic ecosystem, where all transactions are done in Bitcoin
(Consumer  Merchant  Wholesaler  Factory), and the only people who use
the exchanges are merchants who need to and those who wish to gamble on
Bitcoin.

In order for Bitcoin to have widespread acceptance, it needs price
stability. My proposal won't peg the Bitcoin to any one currency, but it
would reduce month to month variability in relation to a basket of
currencies and discourage views that it's speculative.

Look at the current system, it's not healthy and it's not a currency.
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price
of Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement
 Proposal
  and is also a very rough draft of one.
 

 Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
 formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
 would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
 obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
 change.

 --
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 Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
 Web:   http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

 If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney
  worries about, I would have finished high school.   --Edward Snowden


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
 people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
 currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
 majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
 are using the exchanges.

Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Mike Caldwell
For what it's worth, once upon a time I pushed this agenda on Bitcointalk.  I'd 
say early 2011 or so.  The response I got was so strong and unanimous in favor 
of this point being absolutely non-negotiable that if the money supply were 
anything other than fixed, Bitcoin may as well be pretend e-dollars.  I was not 
just persuaded against it, I was put in my place.

I believe that if there ever becomes a consensus that Bitcoin's inflation 
parameters were a show-stopper for the Bitcoin economy, that the power to 
correct it lies with merchants, who would vote for changing the rules.  I 
believe they would do this not by changing Bitcoin, but by accepting, in 
parallel, a brand new alt coin that reflects the consensus as to how the 
inflation should be.  I believe such an alt coin would have its genesis at 
around the time that consensus moved toward accepting inflation, rather than 
adopting the seignorage of some other alt coin out there today.

Mike/Casascius


From: Ryan Carboni [mailto:ryan.jc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 3:24 PM
To: apoels...@wpsoftware.net
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many people 
bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other currencies 
will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The majority of people 
using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price of 
Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra 
as...@sfu.camailto:as...@sfu.ca wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
 This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement Proposal
 and is also a very rough draft of one.

Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
change.

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Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.nethttp://wpsoftware.net
Web:   http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney
 worries about, I would have finished high school.   --Edward Snowden

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Jameson Lopp
To piggyback on Jeff,

Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.

The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
personally focused on.

Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
rejected by a miner's peers.
--
Jameson Lopp
Software Engineer
Bronto Software, Inc

On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
 people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
 currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
 majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
 are using the exchanges.
 
 Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
 with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
 

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Allen Piscitello
I've got a better idea.  Ben Bernake needs a new job.  Let's just let him
set the block reward.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Jameson Lopp jameson.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 To piggyback on Jeff,

 Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
 outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
 outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
 or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
 personally focused on.

 Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
 be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
 rejected by a miner's peers.
 --
 Jameson Lopp
 Software Engineer
 Bronto Software, Inc

 On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
  On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
  people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
 other
  currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
  majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real
 goods
  are using the exchanges.
 
  Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
  with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
 


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
Bitcoin is made of many parts, yes, but not all parts were developed
simultaneously.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.comwrote:

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
 the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
 focused on.


 That is like saying We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
 There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
 I'm personally focused on.

 Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
 that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
 working.

 --
 --
 Gavin Andresen

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
You're just closed minded.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
  It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
  people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
 other
  currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
  majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
  are using the exchanges.

 Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
 with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread kjj

Ryan Carboni wrote:


Bitcoin lacks a Central Bank.


This is a feature, not a bug.

Also, this is offtopic.  Political debate is thataway -.

bitcoin-development is for development and technical discussion.
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Rick Wesson
+1


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.comwrote:

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
 the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
 focused on.


 That is like saying We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
 There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
 I'm personally focused on.

 Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
 that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
 working.

 --
 --
 Gavin Andresen


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.8.6 release candidate 1

2013-12-09 Thread Roy Badami
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:55:02PM +, Drak wrote:
 On 9 December 2013 13:52, Roy Badami r...@gnomon.org.uk wrote:
 
   On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 01:39:51PM +, Drak wrote:
   Someone needs to update the bitcoin.org website, it still points
  downloads
   to 0.8.5
 
  Perhaps because 0.8.6 hasn't been released yet?  Or did I miss the
  announcement?  I think it makes sense that release candidates are not
  promoted on bitcoin.org.
 
 
 It was released and it's all over bitcointalk/reddit

Oh, I see - so it was.  It wasn't announced here though - is there
some other list I need to be on, too?  It would be nice if
announcements like this were posted to a mailing list as well as
bitcointalk.org (is there a bitcoin-announce list that I missed?  If
not, maybe there should be)

roy


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