Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin difficulty sanity check suggestion

2013-12-23 Thread Robin Ranjit Singh Chauhan
Mark, thank you for a very clear explanation of why this proposal would be
dangerous.

What I have noted in many discussions regarding blockchain security and
proof-or-work schemes, is there is a wide gulf between those few people who
can clearly reason about it, and those who have a lot trouble with it (I
mostly fall into the later camp).

I wonder if anyone can point to resources who can help the rest of us
reason clearly about these types of proposals, prior to bringing them to
this list or a senior dev.

Ideally it would illustrate various past proposals, explain why they would
and wouldnt work, and build up some fundamental concepts, like a Newtons
laws of blockchain security that would help us evaluate such ideas on our
own.

Blockchain stuff is often counterintuitive.



On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ryan, these sort of adjustments introduce security risks. If you were
 isolated from the main chain by a low-hashpower attacker, how would
 you know? They'd need just three days without you noticing that
 network block generation has stalled - maybe they wait for a long
 weekend - then after that the block rate is normal but completely
 controlled by the attacker (and isolated from mainnet).

 There are fast acting alternative difficulty adjustment algorithms
 being explored by some alts, such as the 9-block interval, 144-block
 window, Parks-McClellan FIR filter used by Freicoin to recover from
 just such a mining bubble. If it were to happen to bitcoin, there
 would be sophisticated alternative to turn to, and enough time to make
 the change.

 On 12/22/2013 07:10 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  I think Bitcoin should have a sanity check: after three days if
  only four blocks have been mined, difficulty should be adjusted
  downwards.
 
  This might become important in the near future. I project a
  Bitcoin mining bubble.
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin difficulty sanity check suggestion

2013-12-23 Thread Ryan Carboni
I think you misunderstood my statement. If time  3 days, and after 4
blocks have been mined, then difficulty would be reset.

In theory, one would have to isolate roughly one percent of the Bitcoin
network's hashing power to do so. Which would indicate an attack by a state
actor as opposed to anything else. Arguably, the safest way to run Bitcoin
is through a proprietary dial-up network.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ryan, these sort of adjustments introduce security risks. If you were
 isolated from the main chain by a low-hashpower attacker, how would
 you know? They'd need just three days without you noticing that
 network block generation has stalled - maybe they wait for a long
 weekend - then after that the block rate is normal but completely
 controlled by the attacker (and isolated from mainnet).

 There are fast acting alternative difficulty adjustment algorithms
 being explored by some alts, such as the 9-block interval, 144-block
 window, Parks-McClellan FIR filter used by Freicoin to recover from
 just such a mining bubble. If it were to happen to bitcoin, there
 would be sophisticated alternative to turn to, and enough time to make
 the change.

 On 12/22/2013 07:10 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  I think Bitcoin should have a sanity check: after three days if
  only four blocks have been mined, difficulty should be adjusted
  downwards.
 
  This might become important in the near future. I project a
  Bitcoin mining bubble.
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin difficulty sanity check suggestion

2013-12-23 Thread Allen Piscitello
Ryan,

Why do you continue to try to correct people who clearly have put more
thought into this than you?  Everyone understood you just fine, you just
seem to have trouble comprehending why your ideas are terrible.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think you misunderstood my statement. If time  3 days, and after 4
 blocks have been mined, then difficulty would be reset.

 In theory, one would have to isolate roughly one percent of the Bitcoin
 network's hashing power to do so. Which would indicate an attack by a state
 actor as opposed to anything else. Arguably, the safest way to run Bitcoin
 is through a proprietary dial-up network.


 On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.iowrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Ryan, these sort of adjustments introduce security risks. If you were
 isolated from the main chain by a low-hashpower attacker, how would
 you know? They'd need just three days without you noticing that
 network block generation has stalled - maybe they wait for a long
 weekend - then after that the block rate is normal but completely
 controlled by the attacker (and isolated from mainnet).

 There are fast acting alternative difficulty adjustment algorithms
 being explored by some alts, such as the 9-block interval, 144-block
 window, Parks-McClellan FIR filter used by Freicoin to recover from
 just such a mining bubble. If it were to happen to bitcoin, there
 would be sophisticated alternative to turn to, and enough time to make
 the change.

 On 12/22/2013 07:10 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  I think Bitcoin should have a sanity check: after three days if
  only four blocks have been mined, difficulty should be adjusted
  downwards.
 
  This might become important in the near future. I project a
  Bitcoin mining bubble.
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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 =5Q2H
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-




 --
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin difficulty sanity check suggestion

2013-12-23 Thread Ryan Carboni
It does take a state-level actor to apparently disconnect *multiple *miners
from the rest of the network.

How many Bitcoin miners hash an entire percent or more of the Bitcoin
network? What you're proposing is an attack at the highest levels of the
internet infrastructure.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Which would leave you entirely in the hands of your dialup provider.
 Or the manufacturer of your switch. Or your ISP's backbone provider.
 It does not take a state-level actor to do network attacks.

 BTW, what does difficulty would be reset mean? There are multiple
 ways to interpret that statement. In the most straightforward way, my
 objections apply.

 On 12/23/2013 05:51 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  I think you misunderstood my statement. If time  3 days, and after
  4 blocks have been mined, then difficulty would be reset.
 
  In theory, one would have to isolate roughly one percent of the
  Bitcoin network's hashing power to do so. Which would indicate an
  attack by a state actor as opposed to anything else. Arguably, the
  safest way to run Bitcoin is through a proprietary dial-up
  network.
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin difficulty sanity check suggestion

2013-12-23 Thread Gavin Costin
Ryan,

Maybe you could test out your ideas somewhere like bitcointalk.org and/or 
provide some more technical substance before engaging with this forum.

Developers tend to prefer dealing with numbers known to be either 1 or 0, not a 
variable set of possible values depending on non-technical factors ...

Gavin

 On 24/12/2013, at 15:42, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Maybe it's because the arguments being presented are nonsensical and 
 irrelevant to the current Bitcoin network topology, composed of a small 
 number of mining pools, not solo miners? Furthermore I think people would 
 realize that their mining pool has gone off the reservation so to speak.
 
 
 On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 8:05 PM, Allen Piscitello 
 allen.piscite...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ryan,
 
 Why do you continue to try to correct people who clearly have put more 
 thought into this than you?  Everyone understood you just fine, you just 
 seem to have trouble comprehending why your ideas are terrible.
 
 
 On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think you misunderstood my statement. If time  3 days, and after 4 
 blocks have been mined, then difficulty would be reset.
 
 In theory, one would have to isolate roughly one percent of the Bitcoin 
 network's hashing power to do so. Which would indicate an attack by a state 
 actor as opposed to anything else. Arguably, the safest way to run Bitcoin 
 is through a proprietary dial-up network.
 
 
 On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Ryan, these sort of adjustments introduce security risks. If you were
 isolated from the main chain by a low-hashpower attacker, how would
 you know? They'd need just three days without you noticing that
 network block generation has stalled - maybe they wait for a long
 weekend - then after that the block rate is normal but completely
 controlled by the attacker (and isolated from mainnet).
 
 There are fast acting alternative difficulty adjustment algorithms
 being explored by some alts, such as the 9-block interval, 144-block
 window, Parks-McClellan FIR filter used by Freicoin to recover from
 just such a mining bubble. If it were to happen to bitcoin, there
 would be sophisticated alternative to turn to, and enough time to make
 the change.
 
 On 12/22/2013 07:10 PM, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  I think Bitcoin should have a sanity check: after three days if
  only four blocks have been mined, difficulty should be adjusted
  downwards.
 
  This might become important in the near future. I project a
  Bitcoin mining bubble.
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
 
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 =5Q2H
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
 
 
 --
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