Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Pieter Wuille
I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
to just one client.

I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote:
 People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
 magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
 with them.
 They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
 need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

 The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
 already use wallets other than the core.

 Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

 BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
 Garzik's.

 Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding rob.gold...@astutium.com wrote:

 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one,


 The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
 are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
 to use such things.

 people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road,


 Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
 once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
 they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


 I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
 just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

 Rob


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christophe Biocca
If you absolutely want a name for some small unit (which may be
valuable, not knocking that part of the idea), please use anything
other than bits, which is already a massively overloaded term that
will confuse the hell out of people:

Harddrive costs measured in bits per gigabyte?
An itunes movie download that costs 200,000 bits and takes 804.2
megabytes of space?
Or a 10-megabit internet connection costing 10,000,000 bits per month?

It's especially bad given that bitcoin will likely be adopted first
for online use, where the competing (and more recognized) meaning of
bit is most prevalent.

Not to mention the overlap within bitcoin itself, with people already
using millibits in conversation as a shorthand for mBTC. Hence one
new bit is exactly 1/1000 of the old millibit.

Make something up if you have to, or just use satoshis.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:28 AM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote:
 People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
 magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
 with them.
 They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
 need to care of finance’s or people’s current customs.

 The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
 already use wallets other than the core.

 Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

 BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
 Garzik’s.

 Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding rob.gold...@astutium.com wrote:

 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one,


 The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
 are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
 to use such things.

 people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road,


 Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
 once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
 they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


 I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
 just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

 Rob


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Tamas Blummer
Here is an earlier reference to bits:

https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html

I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :

https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html

and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing 
for XBT being 1 bit

https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille pieter.wui...@gmail.com wrote:

 I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
 Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
 to just one client.
 
 I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before.
 
 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote:
 People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
 magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
 with them.
 They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
 need to care of finance's or people's current customs.
 
 The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
 already use wallets other than the core.
 
 Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.
 
 BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
 Garzik's.
 
 Regards,
 
 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com
 
 On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding rob.gold...@astutium.com wrote:
 
 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one,
 
 
 The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
 are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
 to use such things.
 
 people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road,
 
 
 Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
 once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
 they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.
 
 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.
 
 
 I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
 just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.
 
 Rob
 
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
 ___
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 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
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 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Alan Reiner
I've been a staunch supporter of microbitcoin and would like to do
anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going
to promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it
into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and
settings/options).  I'm not so convinced about the bits name though --
I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded.  Though,
I think we could get away with it. 

(Sadly, I still use microbes occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when
I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is
actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just
doesn't instill the right visuals...)

We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course,
there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require
some work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default
right away.  I'd /prefer/ we get some commitments from some other wallet
developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead
that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world
doing it.

-Alan



On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 Here is an earlier reference to bits:

 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html
 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html

 I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :

 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html
 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html

 and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
 pushing for XBT being 1 bit

 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html
 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html

 Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille pieter.wui...@gmail.com
 mailto:pieter.wui...@gmail.com wrote:

 I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
 Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
 to just one client.

 I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before.

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com
 mailto:ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote:
 People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing
 with
 magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
 with them.
 They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they
 would not
 need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

 The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
 already use wallets other than the core.

 Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

 BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support
 and Jeff
 Garzik's.

 Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding rob.gold...@astutium.com wrote:

 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one,


 The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary,
 and there
 are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel
 they need
 to use such things.

 people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road,


 Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2
 and 3
 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of
 thousands - Not
 once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
 they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


 I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is,
 they can
 just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

 Rob


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
 their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
 ___
 Bitcoin-development mailing list
 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



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 their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Chris Pacia
The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the
population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most
could even name one use of the term.
Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of
reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit.
On Apr 20, 2014 11:52 AM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

  I've been a staunch supporter of microbitcoin and would like to do
 anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to
 promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it into
 Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).
 I'm not so convinced about the bits name though -- I do like it, but I do
 also think that word is too overloaded.  Though, I think we could get away
 with it.

 (Sadly, I still use microbes occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when
 I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a
 good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill
 the right visuals...)

 We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course,
 there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some
 work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right
 away.  I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet
 developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead that
 and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.

 -Alan



 On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:

 Here is an earlier reference to bits:


 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html

  I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :


 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html

  and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
 pushing for XBT being 1 bit


 https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html

  Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

  On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille pieter.wui...@gmail.com wrote:

 I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
 Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
 to just one client.

 I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before.

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com
 wrote:

 People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
 magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
 with them.
 They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would
 not
 need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

 The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
 already use wallets other than the core.

 Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

 BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and
 Jeff
 Garzik's.

 Regards,

 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding 
 rob.gold...@astutium.comrob.gold...@astutium.comwrote:

 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one,


 The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and
 there
 are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
 to use such things.

 people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road,


 Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
 dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
 once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
 they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


 I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
 just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

 Rob



 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
 ___
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Erik Garrison
The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp of orders of
magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill.  People are very
likely to learn what mBTC and µBTC are simply because they risk their money
if they do not.  This is not a bad thing and I think stands only to help
people who learn about these monikers for orders of magnitude this way.

Any appropriate nicknames for these denominations is sure to develop in due
course.  Promoting an already-overloaded term that could just as easily be
applied colloquially to refer to a small amount of value in any currency
seems problematic.
 I've been a staunch supporter of microbitcoin and would like to do
anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to
promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it into
Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).
I'm not so convinced about the bits name though -- I do like it, but I do
also think that word is too overloaded.  Though, I think we could get away
with it.

(Sadly, I still use microbes occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when I'm
talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a
good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill
the right visuals...)

We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course,
there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some
work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right
away.  I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet
developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead that
and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.

-Alan



On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:

Here is an earlier reference to bits:


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html

 I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html

 and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
pushing for XBT being 1 bit


https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.htmlhttps://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html

 Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

 On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille pieter.wui...@gmail.com wrote:

I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
to just one client.

I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com
wrote:

People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
with them.
They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
already use wallets other than the core.

Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
Garzik's.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding
rob.gold...@astutium.comrob.gold...@astutium.comwrote:

The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
are using is the correct one,


The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
to use such things.

people WILL send 1000x more or less than
intended if we go down this road,


Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

Rob


--
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Wladimir
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote:
 The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the
 population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most
 could even name one use of the term.
 Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of
 reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit.

That's a very anglocentric way of thinking.

Here in the Netherlands, a bit is something you put in a horses's
mouth. It's also used as imported word (in the information sense).
We've never used the term for money.

Wladimir

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Chris Pacia
You're correct, my impression of the term is based of what I experience in
the US. If it is more widely used in other cultures that should be a
consideration.
On Apr 20, 2014 12:27 PM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote:
  The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of
 the
  population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most
  could even name one use of the term.
  Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of
  reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit.

 That's a very anglocentric way of thinking.

 Here in the Netherlands, a bit is something you put in a horses's
 mouth. It's also used as imported word (in the information sense).
 We've never used the term for money.

 Wladimir

--
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Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
As someone who has put a lot of thought into how to best help typical everyday 
people understand bitcoin, I strongly favor 1 bit = 1e-6 BTC as being very 
straightforward to explain to non technical types, and also XBT as one bit.  
There are a million bits in a bit coin is highly intelligible to average 
people. 

I consider overload/conflict with existing meanings of bit as a non-issue for 
typical population at large. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 10:31 AM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Whatever we call it. I'm happy to support it as long as it's 1e-6.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Arne Brutschy
Hello,

 While SI units are great for people well versed in them, there is a
 very good reason people aren't asking for 100 micro dollars in change.
 The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
 are using is the correct one, people WILL send 1000x more or less than
 intended if we go down this road, and these mistakes will happen
 frequently. Labeling should be easy enough for kindergarten kids.

Agree - but why do you propose not only a new label but also a different
subunit?

Also, everybody in the metric world is used to the milli- prefix due to
meters and millimeters. It's not such a stretch to expect people to
master that; but I agree that most people would struggle with microbitcoins.

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.

There have been many proposals for more or less arbitrary subunits. What
would be the merit of your proposal? I don't really follow the reasoning
that it's better if it's uncommon for everyone rather than just uncommon
for people not used to metric units.

Regarding the label of a bit: I have to agree with the others that bit
is heavily overused as a unit, but I am a computer scientist, so I don't
have the average joe's perspective on this. I find it weird to use as
it's already in use in English - a bit of work etc

I don't really see the advantage of a bit - it is part of bitcoin
and it's short, but that's about it. I think we are free to pick
anything we want for a label, so why not avoid ambiguities?

See this thread for many creative ideas for labels (and another
arbitrary subunit proposal:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=396522.0

Arne

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Jannis Froese
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I agree that a unit based on 1e-6 BTC is easier to use in practice
than BTC. The name microbitcoin is ok-ish. Nearly all countries
officially use the SI-system, but that doesn't mean that the average
citizen knows all the SI prefixes. Mega, kilo and milli are
universally understood, micro not so much. This is a serious
accessibility concern.

But I dislike the term bit for the already stated reasons: It's
already used in various languages for various things. Simply using
Satoshis may be easier and is universally understood.
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
It is a paradigm that is easy to explain and grasp for neurotypical people. 

The average mind has no problem overloading words and distinguishing the 
intended meaning from context. For most people, overloading a single syllable 
word with a new meaning is much less complicated than using a unique 3+ 
syllable word like satoshi or micro-anything.

Doing software development warps our minds to demand fully qualified names for 
everything. We know our compilers would say bit? Fatal error 0xaaawtf, 
can't continue, not sure if you mean a Boolean or a dog bite.  But this 
peculiarity should not be projected onto the people we are trying to get 
bitcoin to appeal to, not if we want them to feel like we think about their 
experience. 

If I were to say a Bitcoin can be divided into a million bits, less than 0.1% 
of average joes would think I was talking about German beers or the thing that 
goes in horses mouths. Really, most people are good at using context to relate 
this to a dollar can be divided into 100 cents and accepting it.  This 
requires much less of their mind resources than using SI prefixes correctly or 
learning 3 syllable words that (to them) have no instantly apparent 
relationship to Bitcoin. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Arne Brutschy abruts...@xylon.de wrote:

 I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
 Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
 equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.
 
 There have been many proposals for more or less arbitrary subunits. What
 would be the merit of your proposal? I don't really follow the reasoning
 that it's better if it's uncommon for everyone rather than just uncommon
 for people not used to metric units.
 
 Regarding the label of a bit: I have to agree with the others that bit
 is heavily overused as a unit, but I am a computer scientist, so I don't
 have the average joe's perspective on this. I find it weird to use as
 it's already in use in English - a bit of work etc

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
Mainly because it is short, memorable, effectively leads the listener to infer 
the proper meaning, is culturally neutral, is easy to say by speakers of just 
about any language, and many other reasons. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Arne Brutschy abruts...@xylon.de wrote:
 
 agree that overloading isn't an issue when necessary, but my point was
 that the necessity is lacking. If we're free to pick anything, why pick
 something that is overloaded?
 
 Moreover, bit is an abbreviation of bitcoin and might be confused with
 it. Most currencies use a work that is phonetically very different and
 short, so why not do the same?
 
 Pluk, or cred, or finney (as proposed the thread I posted), or
 whichever. We could call it unsp for unspent ;)
 
 Arne
 

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Oliver Egginger
Hello,

just my two 'cents':

Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.

- oliver


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christophe Biocca
Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
in Turkish as well.

Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de wrote:
 Hello,

 just my two 'cents':

 Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
 mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
 except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
 established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.

 - oliver


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Gmail
People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea of using 
the word credit as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not a credit-based 
system. 

However, given that the average person has close to no understanding of what 
credit means, and probably no concern for the distinction even if they do 
know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily understandable credit 
as our human-friendly unit. 

Do others agree that credits as a unit of account has a desirable futuristic 
connotation?

Will



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural 
reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to Japanese 
culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who Satoshi turns 
out to be. 

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
 christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
 for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
 in Turkish as well.
 
 Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
 short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
 
 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de wrote:
 Hello,
 
 just my two 'cents':
 
 Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
 mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
 except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
 established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
 
 - oliver
 
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Justin A
delurk

What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy to
say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2
decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want?

/delurk

Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern hemisphere
winter if I can learn enough.
On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:

 By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural
 reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to
 Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who
 Satoshi turns out to be.

 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
 christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
  for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
  in Turkish as well.
 
  Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
  short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
 
  On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de
 wrote:
  Hello,
 
  just my two 'cents':
 
  Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
  mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
  except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
  established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
 
  - oliver
 
 
 
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 their
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
My impression:

Good because it is short, memorable, and pronounceable by speakers of most 
languages (though to most of the world that would be oo-bit, as u being yu 
is mostly an English thing)

Downsides include the fact that μ is not a U, it just resembles one. It is a 
lowercase M in Greek, a live spoken language also studied by many, and calling 
it a U conveys a notion of global unawareness. And the potential for XBT to 
be 1e-6 BTC on the world stage would be huge, worth pursuing.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Justin A 
allp...@gmail.commailto:allp...@gmail.com wrote:


delurk

What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy to 
say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2 decimal 
places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want?

/delurk

Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern hemisphere 
winter if I can learn enough.

On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, Mike Caldwell 
mcaldw...@swipeclock.commailto:mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:
By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural 
reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to Japanese 
culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who Satoshi turns 
out to be.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
 christophe.bio...@gmail.commailto:christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:

 Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
 for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
 in Turkish as well.

 Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
 short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger 
 bitc...@olivere.demailto:bitc...@olivere.de wrote:
 Hello,

 just my two 'cents':

 Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
 mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
 except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
 established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.

 - oliver


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Un Ix
Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common usage 
I.e. bit.

My 2 cents goes for bit. 

Because: Bitcoin is a digital currency, BTC starts with bit, bit refers to 
a small amount of something in its regular english usage and lastly 99.9876543% 
of people on the planet don't know what a digital bit is yet ...

Gavin

 On 21/04/2014, at 9:20 am, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:
 
 My impression:
 
 Good because it is short, memorable, and pronounceable by speakers of most 
 languages (though to most of the world that would be oo-bit, as u being 
 yu is mostly an English thing)
 
 Downsides include the fact that μ is not a U, it just resembles one. It is a 
 lowercase M in Greek, a live spoken language also studied by many, and 
 calling it a U conveys a notion of global unawareness. And the potential for 
 XBT to be 1e-6 BTC on the world stage would be huge, worth pursuing. 
 
 Mike
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Apr 20, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Justin A allp...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 delurk
 
 What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy to 
 say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2 decimal 
 places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want?
 
 /delurk
 
 Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern hemisphere 
 winter if I can learn enough.
 
 On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:
 By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural 
 reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to 
 Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who 
 Satoshi turns out to be.
 
 Mike
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
  christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
  for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
  in Turkish as well.
 
  Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
  short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
 
  On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de 
  wrote:
  Hello,
 
  just my two 'cents':
 
  Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
  mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
  except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
  established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
 
  - oliver
 
 
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[Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation

2014-04-20 Thread Jonathan Levin
Hi all,

I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of mining. 
Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I think it is important 
to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at play and determine what 
implications this has for the transaction fee market.

As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does not stem 
from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and including it in 
the list of transactions in the block but rather the increased probability that 
the block will be orphaned as a result of slower propagation. Gavin did some 
back of the envelope worst case calculations but these overstated the effect of 
propagation delay. The reason being the 80ms additional time to reach 50% of 
the network is spread throughout the time that it takes to reach 50% of the 
network. During this time miners are notified about the block and treat it as 
the longest chain and hence are no longer mining with the aim to produce a 
competing block. 

I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the probability mass 
function that a block hears about my block in any given second as a function of 
the block size. Although there is likely to be significant noise here, there 
seems to be some stable linear relationships with the time that it takes to 
reach different quartiles. Has anyone done this? I have used some empirical 
data that I am happy to share but ideally I would like analytical solutions.

Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that propagation delays 
results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing power. Indeed it 
may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large blocks to increase 
propagation delays on the network which would increase orphan rates 
particularly for small miners and miners that have not invested in sufficient 
bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner hears about a block after 4.5 
seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance that there is already a block in 
circulation.  Large miners can increase the time that it takes for small miners 
to hear about blocks by increasing the size of their blocks. For example if the 
time that it takes for a small miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds 
there is a 2 percent chance there is already a block in circulation for the 
small miner. There is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block 
published after a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full 
propagation. Am I getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block 
being orphaned is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first 
to find a valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone 
else in the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block. 

One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after hearing 
about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know in 
advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have just found 
even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?

Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any feedback.

Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to capture 
information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions of any 
other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of software. 

Best,

Jonathan










On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, bitcoin-development-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net 
bitcoin-development-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

 Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
   bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 
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 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 than Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest...
 
 
 Today's Topics:
 
   1. Re: bits: Unit of account (Oliver Egginger)
   2. Re: bits: Unit of account (Christophe Biocca)
   3. Re: bits: Unit of account (Gmail)
   4. Re: bits: Unit of account (Mike Caldwell)
   5. Re: bits: Unit of account (Justin A)
 
 
 --
 
 Message: 1
 Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200
 From: Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de
 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account
 To: Bitcoin Development bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 Message-ID: 5354154c.1080...@olivere.de
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 
 Hello,
 
 just my two 'cents':
 
 Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
 mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
 except for speculation. 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
If bit had to be preceded by a letter I would nominate ebit or xbit (which 
could still be XBT)

Those needing a definition for x could define it as coin/100.

That said, I am still more in favor of bit. Xbit would just solve the 
problems others cite about ambiguity if they had to be solved without the 
resulting name being too long.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Un Ix 
slashdevn...@hotmail.commailto:slashdevn...@hotmail.com wrote:

Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common usage 
I.e. bit.

My 2 cents goes for bit.

Because: Bitcoin is a digital currency, BTC starts with bit, bit refers to 
a small amount of something in its regular english usage and lastly 99.9876543% 
of people on the planet don't know what a digital bit is yet ...

Gavin

On 21/04/2014, at 9:20 am, Mike Caldwell 
mcaldw...@swipeclock.commailto:mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:

My impression:

Good because it is short, memorable, and pronounceable by speakers of most 
languages (though to most of the world that would be oo-bit, as u being yu 
is mostly an English thing)

Downsides include the fact that μ is not a U, it just resembles one. It is a 
lowercase M in Greek, a live spoken language also studied by many, and calling 
it a U conveys a notion of global unawareness. And the potential for XBT to 
be 1e-6 BTC on the world stage would be huge, worth pursuing.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 20, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Justin A 
allp...@gmail.commailto:allp...@gmail.com wrote:


delurk

What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy to 
say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2 decimal 
places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want?

/delurk

Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern hemisphere 
winter if I can learn enough.

On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, Mike Caldwell 
mcaldw...@swipeclock.commailto:mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:
By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural 
reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to Japanese 
culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who Satoshi turns 
out to be.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
 christophe.bio...@gmail.commailto:christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:

 Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
 for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
 in Turkish as well.

 Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
 short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.

 On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger 
 bitc...@olivere.demailto:bitc...@olivere.de wrote:
 Hello,

 just my two 'cents':

 Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
 mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
 except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
 established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.

 - oliver


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation

2014-04-20 Thread Mark Friedenbach
As soon as we switch to headers
first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation
time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required to
propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the block is
fully validated.
On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, Jonathan Levin jonathan.le...@sant.ox.ac.uk
wrote:

 Hi all,

 I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of
 mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I think it
 is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at play and
 determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market.

 As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does not
 stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and
 including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the
 increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of slower
 propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case calculations
 but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason being the
 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout the
 time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time miners are
 notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence are no
 longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.

 I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the probability
 mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second as a
 function of the block size. Although there is likely to be significant
 noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with the
 time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done this? I
 have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I would
 like analytical solutions.

 Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that propagation
 delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing power.
 Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large
 blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would increase
 orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not
 invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner hears
 about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance that
 there is already a block in circulation.  Large miners can increase the
 time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by increasing the
 size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a small
 miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent
 chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner. There
 is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published after
 a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full propagation. Am I
 getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block being orphaned
 is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to find a
 valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone else in
 the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.

 One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after hearing
 about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know in
 advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have just
 found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?

 Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any
 feedback.

 Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to capture
 information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions of any
 other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of software.

 Best,

 Jonathan










 On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, 
 bitcoin-development-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net 
 bitcoin-development-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:

  Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 
  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
bitcoin-development-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net
 
  You can reach the person managing the list at
bitcoin-development-ow...@lists.sourceforge.net
 
  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
  than Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest...
 
 
  Today's Topics:
 
1. Re: bits: Unit of account (Oliver Egginger)
2. Re: bits: Unit of account (Christophe Biocca)
3. Re: bits: Unit of account (Gmail)
4. Re: bits: Unit of account (Mike Caldwell)
5. Re: bits: Unit of account (Justin A)
 
 
  --
 
  Message: 1
  Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200
  From: Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de
  Subject: Re: 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christopher Paika
Bit is simple phonetically, I'm for it.


On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.comwrote:

 If bit had to be preceded by a letter I would nominate ebit or xbit
 (which could still be XBT)

 Those needing a definition for x could define it as coin/100.

 That said, I am still more in favor of bit. Xbit would just solve the
 problems others cite about ambiguity if they had to be solved without the
 resulting name being too long.

 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Un Ix slashdevn...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common
 usage I.e. bit.

 My 2 cents goes for bit.

 Because: Bitcoin is a digital currency, BTC starts with bit, bit
 refers to a small amount of something in its regular english usage and
 lastly 99.9876543% of people on the planet don't know what a digital bit
 is yet ...

 Gavin

 On 21/04/2014, at 9:20 am, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.com
 wrote:

 My impression:

 Good because it is short, memorable, and pronounceable by speakers of most
 languages (though to most of the world that would be oo-bit, as u being
 yu is mostly an English thing)

 Downsides include the fact that μ is not a U, it just resembles one. It is
 a lowercase M in Greek, a live spoken language also studied by many, and
 calling it a U conveys a notion of global unawareness. And the potential
 for XBT to be 1e-6 BTC on the world stage would be huge, worth pursuing.

 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 20, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Justin A allp...@gmail.com wrote:

 delurk

 What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy
 to say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2
 decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want?

 /delurk

 Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern hemisphere
 winter if I can learn enough.
 On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.com wrote:

 By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural
 reference in the name.  For example satoshi would be a reference to
 Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who
 Satoshi turns out to be.

 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

  On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Christophe Biocca 
 christophe.bio...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang
  for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse
  in Turkish as well.
 
  Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the
  short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
 
  On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger bitc...@olivere.de
 wrote:
  Hello,
 
  just my two 'cents':
 
  Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they
  mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
  except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
  established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
 
  - oliver
 
 
 
 --
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  Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
 their
  applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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  http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
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  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
 
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation

2014-04-20 Thread Daniel Lidstrom
 Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers
 and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely
 harmful to the security of Bitcoin.


If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block,
then would this really be that big of a deal?  E.g. even if all miners did
this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/empty
blocks per day.


On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd p...@petertodd.org wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA256

 That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving
 small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait
 for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This
 results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most
 blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly
 than the smaller miners.

 Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers
 and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely
 harmful to the security of Bitcoin.


 On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io
 wrote:
 As soon as we switch to headers
 first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation
 time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required
 to
 propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the
 block is
 fully validated.
 On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, Jonathan Levin
 jonathan.le...@sant.ox.ac.uk
 wrote:
 
  Hi all,
 
  I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of
  mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I
 think it
  is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at
 play and
  determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market.
 
  As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does
 not
  stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and
  including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the
  increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of
 slower
  propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case
 calculations
  but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason
 being the
  80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout
 the
  time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time
 miners are
  notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence
 are no
  longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.
 
  I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the
 probability
  mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second
 as a
  function of the block size. Although there is likely to be
 significant
  noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with
 the
  time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done
 this? I
  have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I
 would
  like analytical solutions.
 
  Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that
 propagation
  delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing
 power.
  Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large
  blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would
 increase
  orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not
  invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner
 hears
  about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance
 that
  there is already a block in circulation.  Large miners can increase
 the
  time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by
 increasing the
  size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a
 small
  miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent
  chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner.
 There
  is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published
 after
  a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full
 propagation. Am I
  getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block being
 orphaned
  is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to
 find a
  valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone
 else in
  the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.
 
  One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after
 hearing
  about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know
 in
  advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have
 just
  found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?
 
  Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any
  feedback.
 
  Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to
 capture
  information on network propagation and would invite any 

[Bitcoin-development] Mailing list abuse

2014-04-20 Thread Rodney Morris
What is the procedure for dealing with it? Is it considered abuse to reply
to and quote the entire digest for the sake of a few lines of content? Am I
the only one annoyed by this (if so I'll just shut right up).

Rodney
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Pieter Wuille
On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, Un Ix slashdevn...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common
usage I.e. bit.

What units will be called colloquially is not something developers will
determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not
relevant to this discussion in my opinion.

It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will end up
(or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC bits. That's fine, but using that as
official name in software would be very strange and potentially confusing
in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like calling
dollars bucks in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem with
having colloquial names, but US dollar or euro are far less ambiguous
than bit. I think we need a more distinctive name.

-- 
Pieter
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Mailing list abuse

2014-04-20 Thread Wladimir
On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Rodney Morris rodney.mor...@gmail.com wrote:
 What is the procedure for dealing with it? Is it considered abuse to reply
 to and quote the entire digest for the sake of a few lines of content? Am I
 the only one annoyed by this (if so I'll just shut right up).

I would not go as far as calling it 'abuse' if it is not done on
purpose. Probably the person doesn't even know he/she is doing this.
Best to mail the person and ask (nicely) instead of complaining to the
list.

Wladimir

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Tamas Blummer
I think we have two very good candidates both substantiated with arguments for 
their use in their context:

bit  - the word for everyday use 
XBT - the acronym to fit into the ISO currency set.

both meaning 100 satoshis or 1e-6 Bitcoin. 

I am glad that I erred, and this list finaly cares of finance customs and 
average Joe’s.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 21.04.2014, at 07:41, Pieter Wuille pieter.wui...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, Un Ix slashdevn...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common 
  usage I.e. bit.
 
 What units will be called colloquially is not something developers will 
 determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not relevant 
 to this discussion in my opinion.
 
 It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will end up 
 (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC bits. That's fine, but using that as 
 official name in software would be very strange and potentially confusing 
 in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like calling 
 dollars bucks in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem with having 
 colloquial names, but US dollar or euro are far less ambiguous than 
 bit. I think we need a more distinctive name.
 
 -- 
 Pieter
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