Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
This is not just a political issue. The internet as we know it is at stake, and bitcoin depends directly on a working, single, globally connected internet (at least for now, until mesh networking goes anywhere...). *Everyone* using bitcoin has the interest in keeping the internet working and un-balkanized. That's not a political opinion, it's a fact. The laws could also criminalize both the users and developers, if they regard bitcoin as a payment network. And countries aren't too fussy about extradition to the US (see the case of Richard O'Dwyer). Though I agree that SOPA and PIPA are just manifestations of a brand of censorship that is spreading all over the world. Stopping these laws won't solve the underlying issue either. Other countries will keep pushing for them, and we can't blank out the page for every country. However, that does not make the issue political and thus meaningless. Also: being too small to matter is never a good argument to not do something. It is fear paralysis. Wladimir 2012/1/17 Jorge Timón timon.elvi...@gmail.com It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a political organization for being against censorship. This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
I'm firmly against a *blackout* - it would harm users' trust in Bitcoin since people looking to download the client or to get information about Bitcoin may end up in the wrong place. I constantly have to delete YouTube spam advertising this or that miracle GPU miner or secure Bitcoin client, which of course are all just the same trojan. As for making a statement or putting up a banner - that's ok with me. On 1/17/2012 7:15 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote: On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Hendersonk...@old.school.nz wrote: For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you point out precisely where it does so? In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US themselves. (21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER- (A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a debit, credit, or other payment transaction. [...] (i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from completing payment transactions involving customers located within the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and the payment account-- (I) which is used by the foreign infringing site, or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and (II) through which the payment network provider would complete such payment transactions. If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a payment network by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks donation address). Though I personally think this is far out. I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness (e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could possibly do with our own resources. But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all. So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote: It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a political organization for being against censorship. This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple, evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a political issue. How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;) http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13catname=7 -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
I don't think this is the right mailing list for discussion of this Blackout topic. I know this is definitely not the right mailing list for proselytizing. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote: It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a political organization for being against censorship. This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple, evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a political issue. How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;) http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13catname=7 -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
It seems to me that the internet as a whole has got this one covered. I say this as someone who thinks that BitCoin needs to choose its battles and craft its reputation extremely carefully; this isn't the most important fight for BitCoin, nor the most deadly. I do think SOPA and PIPA could impact bitcoin, what if, for instance, copyrighted material made its way into the blockchain? Already the DMCA would make it hard for someone publishing blocks online to do anything but cease under a DMCA request. SOPA, at least, would go farther and allow the US to cut all access to 'offending' sites elsewhere in the world. At any rate, I don't think these bills are 'aimed at' BitCoin, and the companies with the most stake are taking the threat quite seriously. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. I agree on this. Please don't turn Bitcoin project/homepage into some political agitation. Not everybody care about political attitude of main project developers. slush On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: ** You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is *just any other poltical issue*. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it. On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't get in the business of making statements. A central voice for Bitcoin gives the impression that it is actually centralized, and one that has opinions. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, heavily-invested Bitcoin users were of the opinion that SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for themselves: once SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start getting cut off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That could be a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth the tradeoff, but people are selfish and may not actually understand or even care about SOPA legislation itself. I think it's *not inappropriate* for something to be mentioned on the website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, but I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. Users could be reminded that SOPA affects yet another thing they care about, but it might be better to avoid it altogether. If any response is made, it should be a very light one. -Alan On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote: Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly. Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia. It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad. - Original Message - From: Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com jgar...@exmulti.com To: Amir Taaki zgen...@yahoo.com zgen...@yahoo.com Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki zgen...@yahoo.com zgen...@yahoo.com wrote: How is this not the most important world issue right now? EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage. Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy. There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate this in the long run. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
On Monday, January 16, 2012 7:46:39 PM Alan Reiner wrote: In response to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Sorry, Bitcoin is not about the same thing to everyone. For me, Bitcoin is about one thing: providing a monetary system for the Tonal number system. Otherwise, it would be merely an interesting project I have no real concern with. To assume everyone has the same interests is a sure-fire way to prevent widescale adoption. If you want Bitcoin to succeed, don't try to impose a single purpose/about on everyone using it (which a blackout would do). Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it. Bitcoin is an innovative new currency. How is a bill on internet censorship (which is badly needed, even if not in the form of SOPA/PIPA) directly relevant? I don't think it is. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com wrote: There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate this in the long run. Agreed :) For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you point out precisely where it does so? -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Henderson k...@old.school.nz wrote: For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you point out precisely where it does so? In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US themselves. (21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER- (A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a debit, credit, or other payment transaction. [...] (i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from completing payment transactions involving customers located within the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and the payment account-- (I) which is used by the foreign infringing site, or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and (II) through which the payment network provider would complete such payment transactions. If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a payment network by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks donation address). Though I personally think this is far out. I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness (e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could possibly do with our own resources. But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all. So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a political organization for being against censorship. This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy. And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly. -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
