Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-11 Thread odinn
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Please comment if possible on some of the techno-cultural implications of ongoing development of bi-directional micropayment channels? For example, consider zakat example(s):

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-11 Thread Mike Hearn
Firstly, apologies to Nathan for not actually providing feedback on his protocol. I've put pondering it onto my mental todo list. The notion of a payment tree is interesting but complicated - I would need to think about it and maybe draw myself some diagrams before having useful feedback here. If

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-11 Thread Peter Todd
On Fri, Jan 09, 2015 at 01:40:53PM +0200, Nathan Cook wrote: Would you mind doing up some actual scriptPubKeys/transactions using this idea as an example? I think it'd make the review process a lot easier for everyone if there was something more concrete. (equally, sorry I haven't had a chance to

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Mike Hearn
The original design is documented at the bottom of here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party In this design, time locked transactions can be broadcast across the network and replaced by broadcasting a new transaction that

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Mike Hearn
A limitation on most existing micropayment channel ideas is that payments can only flow in one direction. It's worth noting that the original protocol as designed by Satoshi did not have this limitation. It has evolved this way because of ad-hoc DoS fixes over time (btw I'm not saying they

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Jeff Garzik
Mike, Can you be more specific? You reference original design without saying how it was different/better. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 8:20 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: A limitation on most existing micropayment channel ideas is that payments can only flow in one direction. It's worth

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Gregory Maxwell
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: A limitation on most existing micropayment channel ideas is that payments can only flow in one direction. It's worth noting that the original protocol as designed by Satoshi did not have this limitation. It has evolved this way

[Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Nathan Cook
A limitation on most existing micropayment channel ideas is that payments can only flow in one direction. This is because the payment receiver can sign -any- transaction you send them, not just the most recent one, and so it's possible to just sign the transaction transferring the largest amount

Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bi-directional micropayment channels with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY

2015-01-09 Thread Gregory Maxwell
On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Additionally, there is a school of thought that says Bitcoin must work even if lots of miners are malicious and willing to break arbitrary things in order to try and get more money. I don't think Bitcoin can really be a This