Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-03 Thread Roy Badami
 the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first 
 one 

As a counter argument, many sources (including the BBC) abbreviate
million to 'm' (and billion to 'bn'), e.g. $3m, $3bn.

I think any similarity with SI units here is coincidental.

roy

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-03 Thread Jannis Froese
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


On 03.05.2014 02:54, Ben Davenport wrote:
 No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at 
 least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k 
 or $3M.

As you said, that's in the US, and I strongly suspect the sole reason
is that in the US the currency symbol is written in front of the
amount. I often pronounce $10k as ten kilodollar, using it exactly
like a SI-prefix.

The much better argument against SI prefixes is that the prefixes for
values less than 1 tend to be much less well known: Most people know
that kilo means 1000, many know that mega means 1,000,000, but few
know that micro means 0.001, and those that do tend to confuse
micro and nano.

Jannis
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Jeff Garzik
vendor hat: on

Related: 
http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Ben Davenport
I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it
comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting
together, agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint
customer education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around
bits, great.

My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI
prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at
least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal
format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.

Ben




On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 vendor hat: on

 Related:
 http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

 --
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 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Aaron Voisine
It will also be important to chose the currency symbol for bits at the
same time. Lowercase stroke b I think is the obvious choice.
Unicode U+0180

Aaron

On Friday, May 2, 2014, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

  I've been a strong supporter of the 1e-6 unit switch since the beginning
 and ready to do whatever I can with Armory to help ease that transition.
 I'm happy to prioritize a release that updates the Armory interface to make
 bits the default unit, when the time is right.  I think it makes sense to
 get as many apps and services to upgrade nearly simultaneously.

 My plan is to have a popup on the first load of the new version that
 briefly introduces the change, and mentions that they can go back to the
 old way in the settings, but make them work to do it.  For the transient
 period (6 months?) all input boxes will auto-update nearby labels with the
 converted-to-BTC value as they type, so that they don't have to do any math
 in their head.  Similarly, all displayed BTC values will show both.  But
 the 1e-6 unit will always be default or first unless they explicitly change
 it in the interface.




 On 5/2/2014 8:54 PM, Ben Davenport wrote:

 I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it
 comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting
 together, agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint
 customer education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around
 bits, great.

  My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
 prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI
 prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at
 least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
 That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal
 format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
 unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
 strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.

  Ben




 On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik 
 jgar...@bitpay.comjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jgar...@bitpay.com');
  wrote:

 vendor hat: on

 Related:
 http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Matias Alejo Garcia
I live in Argentina. Here, 1BTC is around half of a monthly average
wage (net), so, as you
can imagine, the value of 1 BTC is *very* inconvenient  for everyday
transactions.

 Also it presents an important entry barrier for new adopters: It would be
easier to accept buying thousands of bits than buying a tiny fraction
of a Bitcoin, for the same amount of pesos.

Changing to 1e-6 bits will solve both problems. Changing to 1e-6
microbitcoins will
solve the first one, but not sure about the second one. Buying (or
earning) mili or micro
something  isn't that sexy either.

Finally, against micro and in favor of bits, micro is noted μ,
which is also
 inconvenient (I had to copy and paste it from an other site). Many
different notations will be used like:  μBTC, uBTC,  microBTC and
even mBTC.
Please prevent that.

These arguments also applies to many places in the  world (Argentina
is 40 out of 72 listed countries in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage).

matías




On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 10:13 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:
 I've been a strong supporter of the 1e-6 unit switch since the beginning and
 ready to do whatever I can with Armory to help ease that transition.  I'm
 happy to prioritize a release that updates the Armory interface to make
 bits the default unit, when the time is right.  I think it makes sense to
 get as many apps and services to upgrade nearly simultaneously.

 My plan is to have a popup on the first load of the new version that briefly
 introduces the change, and mentions that they can go back to the old way in
 the settings, but make them work to do it.  For the transient period (6
 months?) all input boxes will auto-update nearby labels with the
 converted-to-BTC value as they type, so that they don't have to do any math
 in their head.  Similarly, all displayed BTC values will show both.  But the
 1e-6 unit will always be default or first unless they explicitly change it
 in the interface.





 On 5/2/2014 8:54 PM, Ben Davenport wrote:

 I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it
 comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting together,
 agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint customer
 education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around bits,
 great.

 My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
 prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI
 prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at
 least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
 That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal
 format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
 unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
 strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.

 Ben




 On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 vendor hat: on

 Related:
 http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Luke Dashjr
On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote:
 My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
 prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI
 prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at
 least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
 That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal
 format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
 unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
 strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.

Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' *are* 
the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first one 
to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here.

Luke

P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by force of 
law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually all 
naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a number 
that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal).

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Ben Davenport
Luke,

My point is that you never apply the prefixes to the currency unit itself.
We don't spend kilodollars or megadollars.

Ben


On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Luke Dashjr l...@dashjr.org wrote:

 On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote:
  My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
  prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses
 SI
  prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard
 at
  least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
  That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an
 informal
  format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
  unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
  strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.

 Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M'
 *are*
 the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first
 one
 to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here.

 Luke

 P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by
 force of
 law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually
 all
 naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a
 number
 that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal).

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Peter Todd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and
'M' *are*
the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M.

Excellent point.

Also, I frequently hear statements referring to mili-bitcoins, mBTC, pronounced 
as mili-bits or m-bits; the term bits is very much already in use and not 
to refer to uBTC.
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Version: APG v1.1.1

iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTZFfuMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8
cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhRSfB/434bom68YyzgW0rPek
wrkjBHtxK7BgrPvkpMsBpAIWQ+NbKZBNTIZfp78rbUlGdj+3mXc5e+QXSnKHJn6V
azUtn4PsvL/iNAIZ91vdMYKRvFkAPfS+XBxR0J3JiAzQb6dshyUm9X6UQyJHGs8O
EOS2sQ/c2ZY6hFVE5JfA3jH8ykQy36MNfehbT290kppkcRq24JAVLYz66444CHA1
iMHCfnlcR9hMUVQmzds4QLIPHLLjEqkMxJUe5yxFVeW0MFxu2sG3jfYcOwoqQbBY
N+hLHOKuH5mOm6mfJ3/IHVj2dM9jok+JKG0GytZA1kKGbh/KGIhxIxE/06dNakfW
QzfS
=666/
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Un Ix
Think your example is not quite valid ...

People say or write $88M or $45k I.e. use SI prefix as a suffix, else it would 
be more, not less, clear on what amount is being referred to.

For me, bits are easy to say and one million as a factor is simple to 
understand.

M-bits, kilobits, millibits, etc are never going to be used by folk in everyday 
transactions, IMHO 

Gavin

 On 3/05/2014, at 10:40 am, Luke Dashjr l...@dashjr.org wrote:
 
 On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote:
 My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI
 prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI
 prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at
 least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M.
 That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal
 format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base
 unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are
 strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi.
 
 Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' 
 *are* 
 the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first 
 one 
 to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here.
 
 Luke
 
 P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by force 
 of 
 law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually all 
 naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a number 
 that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal).
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-05-02 Thread Tamas Blummer
Excellent move Jeff.

Best would now be to establish XBT as the ISO code for bits.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 02.05.2014, at 21:17, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 vendor hat: on
 
 Related: 
 http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html
 
 -- 
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Andreas Schildbach
btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because
of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if
exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.

I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local
currency that matters to the users.


On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC.
 
 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other
 wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late
 to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.


 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:

 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation
 issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving
 pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC,
 mBTC,  μBTC, XBT, mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for
 leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows
 anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. 

 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols
 (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).

 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the
 Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems
 that μ+icon is more sensible. 

 Let us know what you'd like.

 Links:
 m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
 Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
 NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.



 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com
 mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote:
  We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this,
 let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
 
  -wendell
 
  grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
 http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
  On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
  Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems
 handle numbers to
  the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The
 opposite is
  untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
 



 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

 
 --
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Tamas Blummer
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why
they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad.

I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency
of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 

3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be.


Tamas Blummer
Bits of Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote:

 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because
 of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if
 exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
 I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local
 currency that matters to the users.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC.
 
 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other
 wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late
 to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation
issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving
pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC,
mBTC,  μBTC, XBT, mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for
leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows
anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. 
 
We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols
(i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).
 
Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the
Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems
that μ+icon is more sensible. 
 
Let us know what you'd like.
 
Links:
m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
transition.
 
 
 
On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com
mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote:
 We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this,
let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
 
 -wendell
 
 grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
 Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems
handle numbers to
 the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The
opposite is
 untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
 
 
 
 
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 

 --
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Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases
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applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Roy Badami
On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 03:05:25PM +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because
 of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if
 exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.

At the moment, I imagine the vast majority of Bitcoin users are
familliar with SI units and know what milli- and micro- mean.

I doubt that is true of the general population, though.

roy

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Tamas Blummer
you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
the form of a price.

A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
price in some currency. 

A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.

Tamas Blummer
Bits of Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote:

 How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
 
 At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
 people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
 0.003578.
 
 Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
 
 
 On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
 why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
 gave them are bad.
 
 I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
 currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
 do.
 
 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
 would be.
 
 
 Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
 
 On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 wrote:
 
 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
 because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
 questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
 I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
 local currency that matters to the users.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
 µBTC.
 
 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
 other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
 mBTC.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
 It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
 now.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
 g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
 presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
 configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
 combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
 mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
 symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
 customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
 
 
 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
 symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
 icon+m etc).
 
 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
 the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
 seems that μ+icon is more sensible.
 
 Let us know what you'd like.
 
 Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
 Awesome icon:
 http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
 guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com 
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
 several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
 the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
 happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
 yet another decimal place transition.
 
 
 
 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com 
 mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote:
 We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do
 this,
 let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
 
 -wendell
 
 grabhive.com http://grabhive.com |
 twitter.com/hivewallet
 http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
 Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer
 systems
 handle numbers to
 the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
 The
 opposite is
 untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
 places).
 
 
 
 
 -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source
 evangelist BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 
 --
 
 
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph
 databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed
 leaders in the field, this first edition is now available.
 Download your free book today! 
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech 
 ___ 
 Bitcoin-development mailing list 
 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net 
 mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net 
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph
 Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases
 and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Andreas Schildbach
By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're
lobbying for mBTC?


On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
 the form of a price.
 
 A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
 price in some currency. 
 
 A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
 but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.
 
 Tamas Blummer
 Bits of Proof
 
 On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote:
 
 How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?

 At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
 people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
 0.003578.

 Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.


 On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
 why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
 gave them are bad.

 I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
 currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
 do.

 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
 would be.


 Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof

 On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de
 wrote:

 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
 because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
 questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.

 I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
 local currency that matters to the users.


 On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
 µBTC.

 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
 other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
 mBTC.


 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
 It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
 now.


 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
 g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:

 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
 presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
 configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
 combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
 mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
 symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
 customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.


 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
 symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
 icon+m etc).

 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
 the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
 seems that μ+icon is more sensible.

 Let us know what you'd like.

 Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
 Awesome icon:
 http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
 guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
 several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
 the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
 happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
 yet another decimal place transition.



--
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Tamas Blummer
I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas.

It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin are used 
to
some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and 
 financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices
with more than two decimals.

With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. 
Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote:

 By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're
 lobbying for mBTC?
 
 
 On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
 the form of a price.
 
 A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
 price in some currency. 
 
 A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
 but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.
 
 Tamas Blummer
 Bits of Proof
 
 On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote:
 
 How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
 
 At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
 people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
 0.003578.
 
 Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
 
 
 On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
 why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
 gave them are bad.
 
 I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
 currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
 do.
 
 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
 would be.
 
 
 Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
 
 On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de
 wrote:
 
 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
 because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
 questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
 I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
 local currency that matters to the users.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
 µBTC.
 
 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
 other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
 mBTC.
 
 
 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
 It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
 now.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
 g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
 presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
 configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
 combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
 mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
 symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
 customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
 
 
 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
 symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
 icon+m etc).
 
 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
 the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
 seems that μ+icon is more sensible.
 
 Let us know what you'd like.
 
 Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
 Awesome icon:
 http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
 guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
 several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
 the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
 happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
 yet another decimal place transition.
 
 
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Tyler
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why
they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are
bad.

I don't think this is particularly true. The options people are given are
all good in this case and all have their merits. The reason people are
converting to fiat using the exchange rates is because right now the
exchanges define its value. People have no intuitive idea that a loaf of
bread cost X BTC. This isn't going to change anytime soon.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter what denomination you use.  If we
switched to micro we would have 3 extra digits we would be working with on
a daily basis which have very little significance. But thats just a western
point of view and people could adapt.

The real problems are that millibitcoin and microbitcoin are hard to say
loud and the both start with 'm' not too many people have a mu key on their
keyboard. Even Bitcoin is not nice to say. it has two very hard sounds
together in the middle of the word.

It would be far easier if we had a system like one ham is 1000 bits, one
bacon is 1000 hams.

Clearly a ridiculous example but try saying and you'll realize how much
easier it is to describe things not that they are clearly differentiable
words that are easy to say.

I like bits as the lowest one. But its not something you can decide. The
common names will have to develop naturally and in all likelihood will
differ between regions (I know I know we must keep it standardized but what
might be easy to say in North America probably isn't as easy elsewhere.)

So give people the options (Let them transact on their own terms). I would
say restrict it to BTC milli and micro in the settings that will help nudge
people towards even different regions simply having different names for the
same quantity as opposed to some place having 10 hams as a pixie.


On 14 March 2014 10:14, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote:

 You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why
 they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are
 bad.

 I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency
 of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do.

 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be.


 Tamas Blummer
 Bits of Proof

 On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote:

  btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because
  of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if
  exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
  I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local
  currency that matters to the users.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
  Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC.
 
  I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other
  wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
  The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late
  to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.
 
 
  On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk
  mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation
 issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving
 pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC,
 mBTC,  μBTC, XBT, mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for
 leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows
 anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered
 default.
 
 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols
 (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).
 
 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the
 Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems
 that μ+icon is more sensible.
 
 Let us know what you'd like.
 
 Links:
 m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
 Font Awesome icon:
 http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
 NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several
 weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus
 was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result
 in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.
 
 
 
 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com
 mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote:
  We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this,
 let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
 
  -wendell
 
  grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Andreas Schildbach
I don't know about financial software.

I really don't get what you mean by weird notation? Bitcoin Wallet is
made for ordinary users. They are used to real-world prices like EUR
1.63 / USD 2.26 (that would be the Espresso example). How can mBTC 3.56
be weird to these people?

Granted, there are exceptions, like in Japan. Maybe those would be
better served with µBTC as default. Maybe. Up to now, outside of this
mailing list nobody requested µBTC. Then again, Japanese userbase is
tiny compared to US.


On 03/14/2014 04:12 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas.
 
 It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin
 are used to
 some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and 
  financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices
 with more than two decimals.
 
 With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. 
 Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between.
 
 Tamas Blummer
 http://bitsofproof.com
 
 On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote:
 
 By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're
 lobbying for mBTC?


 On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
 the form of a price.

 A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
 price in some currency.

 A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
 but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.

 Tamas Blummer
 Bits of Proof

 On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote:

 How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?

 At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
 people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
 0.003578.

 Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.


 On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
 You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
 why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
 gave them are bad.

 I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
 currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
 do.

 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
 would be.


 Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof

 On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de
 mailto:andr...@schildbach.de
 wrote:

 btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
 because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
 questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.

 I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
 local currency that matters to the users.


 On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
 Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
 µBTC.

 I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
 other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
 mBTC.


 On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
 It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
 now.


 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
 g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:

 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
 presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
 configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
 combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
 mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
 symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
 customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.


 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
 symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
 icon+m etc).

 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
 the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
 seems that μ+icon is more sensible.

 Let us know what you'd like.

 Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
 Awesome icon:
 http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
 guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
 several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
 the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
 happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
 yet another decimal place transition.



 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Alex Morcos
I think Mark makes some good arguments.
I realize this would only add to the confusion, but...
What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or
whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user
standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits
(ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price.
 But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit
with 2 decimals of precision.




On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude
 numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East
 Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands
 of rupees in Indonesia.

 This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday
 prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in
 Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent
 memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought
 European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves
 trace lineage to the pound sterling).

 No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and
 pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in
 accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software
 packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That
 gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting
 in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment
 with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions.

 However another limitation of these accounting software practices is
 that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly
 sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol
 (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully
 compliant with any software accounting package out there.

 We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes
 that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin
 foundation changing their practice and their users following suit.

 On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
  How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
 
  At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
  people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
  0.003578.
 
  Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
 
 
  On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
  You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
  why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
  gave them are bad.
 
  I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
  currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
  do.
 
  3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
  would be.
 
 
  Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
 
  On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
  wrote:
 
  btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
  because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
  questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
  I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
  local currency that matters to the users.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
  Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
  µBTC.
 
  I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
  other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
  mBTC.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
  The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
  It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
  now.
 
 
  On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
  g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
  The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
  presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
  configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
  combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
  mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
  symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
  customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
 
 
  We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
  symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
  icon+m etc).
 
  Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
  the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
  seems that μ+icon is more sensible.
 
  Let us know what you'd like.
 
  Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
  Awesome icon:
  http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
  guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
  On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
  mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Andrew Smith
Well, not sure I wanted to subscribe the mbtc vs ubtc list... its a
default, not a big deal.
--
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Ricardo Filipe
so much discussion for a visual update...

make this a user experiment:
-give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC
-retrieve the results after some time
-make the default the most used option


2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com:
 I think Mark makes some good arguments.
 I realize this would only add to the confusion, but...
 What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or
 whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user
 standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits
 (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price.
 But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit
 with 2 decimals of precision.




 On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude
 numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East
 Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands
 of rupees in Indonesia.

 This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday
 prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in
 Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent
 memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought
 European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves
 trace lineage to the pound sterling).

 No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and
 pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in
 accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software
 packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That
 gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting
 in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment
 with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions.

 However another limitation of these accounting software practices is
 that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly
 sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol
 (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully
 compliant with any software accounting package out there.

 We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes
 that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin
 foundation changing their practice and their users following suit.

 On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
  How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
 
  At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
  people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
  0.003578.
 
  Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
 
 
  On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
  You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
  why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
  gave them are bad.
 
  I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
  currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
  do.
 
  3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
  would be.
 
 
  Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
 
  On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
  wrote:
 
  btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
  because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
  questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
 
  I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
  local currency that matters to the users.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
  Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
  µBTC.
 
  I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
  other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
  mBTC.
 
 
  On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
  The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
  It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
  now.
 
 
  On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
  g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
  The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
  presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
  configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
  combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
  mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
  symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
  customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
 
 
  We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
  symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
  icon+m etc).
 
  Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
  the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
  seems that μ+icon is more sensible.
 
  Let us know what you'd like.
 
  Links: m+icon 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Allen Piscitello
Fairly useless experiment, since the vast majority of users will almost
always stay at the default.  The winner will always be whatever was
selected as the default initially.  This might work if the default was
randomly chosen, and you see what actually annoyed users enough to switch
off of it most often.


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Ricardo Filipe
ricardojdfil...@gmail.comwrote:

 so much discussion for a visual update...

 make this a user experiment:
 -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC
 -retrieve the results after some time
 -make the default the most used option


 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com:
  I think Mark makes some good arguments.
  I realize this would only add to the confusion, but...
  What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or
  whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user
  standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits
  (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price.
  But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit
  with 2 decimals of precision.
 
 
 
 
  On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io
 wrote:
 
  A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude
  numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East
  Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands
  of rupees in Indonesia.
 
  This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday
  prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in
  Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent
  memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought
  European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves
  trace lineage to the pound sterling).
 
  No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and
  pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in
  accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software
  packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That
  gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting
  in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment
  with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions.
 
  However another limitation of these accounting software practices is
  that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly
  sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol
  (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully
  compliant with any software accounting package out there.
 
  We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes
  that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin
  foundation changing their practice and their users following suit.
 
  On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
   How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
  
   At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
   people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
   0.003578.
  
   Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
  
  
   On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
   You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
   why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
   gave them are bad.
  
   I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
   currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
   do.
  
   3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
   would be.
  
  
   Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
  
   On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de
   wrote:
  
   btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
   because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
   questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%.
  
   I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
   local currency that matters to the users.
  
  
   On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
   Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
   µBTC.
  
   I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
   other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
   mBTC.
  
  
   On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
   The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
   It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
   now.
  
  
   On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
   g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
  
   The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
   presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
   configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
   combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
   mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread vv01f
I think
* if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin
make this a valid option we will change again in future
* users do not like changes
* we should keep a good standard

A good standard should be
* built on standards (e.g. SI)
* backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he
cannot change
* do not make changes without users permission
* take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed
out before sending that e.g.
the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC
instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC
because the user failed to use the correct delimiter.

For now a good standard is
* simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places
or could be
* uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility
with other software
* satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where
decimal places in prices are uncommon

So I'd prefer:
Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user
alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places.
And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and
the desired behavior.

--
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Natanael
Regarding (ISO standards) currency symbols, XBT is already used as
equivalent to 1 Bitcoin in numerous places, and XBC is taken and BT*
belongs to Bhutan (and X** is already the default for non-national currency
common items of trade), so IMHO we should define something like XUB as
microbitcoins so we can have a symbol that doesn't require changing any
existing systems and that can be standardized globally. Then those with
accounting software that needs to deal with something that has two decimals
maximum without losing precision can use that while following well defined
standards. And those who don't like large numbers can still chose to show
mBTC.

- Sent from my phone
Den 14 mar 2014 18:18 skrev vv01f vv...@riseup.net:

 I think
 * if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin
 make this a valid option we will change again in future
 * users do not like changes
 * we should keep a good standard

 A good standard should be
 * built on standards (e.g. SI)
 * backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he
 cannot change
 * do not make changes without users permission
 * take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed
 out before sending that e.g.
 the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC
 instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC
 because the user failed to use the correct delimiter.

 For now a good standard is
 * simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places
 or could be
 * uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility
 with other software
 * satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where
 decimal places in prices are uncommon

 So I'd prefer:
 Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user
 alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places.
 And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and
 the desired behavior.


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
 ___
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 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-14 Thread Odinn Cyberguerrilla
Hello,

I see a lot of talk on this topic and get the senst that it is focused on
default display only regarding the mBTC / uBTC questions.  However, if the
focus is broader, involving whether or how to express other currencies or
moving further along to what that might even mean (since many people have
different ideas about what a currency is) perhaps there is another issue
to open, or a process BIP to address how to display other concepts, for
example:

other currencies

microdonations

etc.

I sense however that may be outside the scope of this thread, so I'll just
stop here and try to read samples of the other stuff going on here.

-Odinn
http://abis.io

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.



 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote:
 We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it
 right after the fee system is improved.

 -wendell

 grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411

 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:

 Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle
 numbers to
 the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
 untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).




 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
 ___
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 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development




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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jeff Garzik
Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
transition.



On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote:
 We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it 
 right after the fee system is improved.

 -wendell

 grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411

 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:

 Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to
 the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
 untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).




-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Gary Rowe
The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue.
As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every
possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
mXBT,  μXBT, sat along
with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This
allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered
default.

We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no
conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).

Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font
Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is
more sensible.

Let us know what you'd like.

Links:
m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.



 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote:
  We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it
 right after the fee system is improved.
 
  -wendell
 
  grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
  On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
  Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle
 numbers to
  the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
  untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
 



 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mike Hearn
The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to
try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:

 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation
 issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much
 every possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC, mBTC,  μBTC, XBT,
 mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas,
 spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs
 beyond the offered default.

 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no
 conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).

 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font
 Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is
 more sensible.

 Let us know what you'd like.

 Links:
 m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
 Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
 NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.



 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote:
  We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do
 it right after the fee system is improved.
 
  -wendell
 
  grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
  On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
  Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle
 numbers to
  the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
  untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
 



 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Wladimir
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.


I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting
people to care.

Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same
boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end
nothing happens.

I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the
change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some
exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000),
also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc.

Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final
unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated
education effort.

Wladimir
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Andreas Schildbach
Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC.

I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other
wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC.


On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
 The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late
 to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk
 mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote:
 
 The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation
 issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving
 pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon,  μ+icon, BTC,
 mBTC,  μBTC, XBT, mXBT,  μXBT, sat along with settings for
 leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows
 anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. 
 
 We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols
 (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc).
 
 Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the
 Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems
 that μ+icon is more sensible. 
 
 Let us know what you'd like.
 
 Links:
 m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
 Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
 NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
 
 
 On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com
 mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.
 
 
 
 On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com
 mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote:
  We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this,
 let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
 
  -wendell
 
  grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
 http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411
 
  On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 
  Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems
 handle numbers to
  the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The
 opposite is
  untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
 
 
 
 
 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases
 and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
 ___
 Bitcoin-development mailing list
 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
 
 
 
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
 their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
 ___
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 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
 
 
 
 
 --
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 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
 applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
 this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
 http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
 
 
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jeff Garzik
vendor hat: on

Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC
internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others
in the community.  Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will
catch up, I suppose.

Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.


 I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting
 people to care.

 Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring
 shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing
 happens.

 I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change
 to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some
 exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also
 mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc.

 Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final
 unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated
 education effort.

 Wladimir



-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mike Hearn
BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets,
exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default?

I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift
any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have
heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible
through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take
massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet.



On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 vendor hat: on

 Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC
 internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others
 in the community.  Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will
 catch up, I suppose.

 Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/


 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
  Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
  ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
  uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
  additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
  transition.
 
 
  I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting
  people to care.
 
  Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same
 boring
  shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end
 nothing
  happens.
 
  I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the
 change
  to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some
  exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000),
 also
  mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc.
 
  Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final
  unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated
  education effort.
 
  Wladimir



 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:
 BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets,
 exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default?

 I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any
 time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard

Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community
coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
this manner.

mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to
produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited
to two decimal places.  Further, spreadsheets hide information if
formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is
configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies.

Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
popular software systems have been written with that assumption.

-- 
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Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Tamas Blummer
Jeff's arguments are understood and supported by those who worked in finance.

Existing financial applications have often problems dealing with more than 2 
decimals.
People who work in finance are used to two decimals.

Neither systems nor people in finance have a problem with large numbers though.

For above practical reasons I am also for moving to a unit that equals 100 
satoshi.
I heard the name bit for it which I like.

Regards,

Tamás Blummer
Founder, CEO
Bits of Proof
http://bitsofproof.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Alan Reiner
On 03/13/2014 10:32 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:
 BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets,
 exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default?

 I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any
 time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard
 Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community
 coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
 this manner.

 mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to
 produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited
 to two decimal places.  Further, spreadsheets hide information if
 formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is
 configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies.

 Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
 Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
 popular software systems have been written with that assumption.


I whole-heartedly agree with Jeff.  micro-BTC was the way to go to end
user confusion and make things easier for software systems which are
designed to handle money (i.e. two decimal places).  I also echo the
sentiment about people being able to handle large numbers well. 

We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for
NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch
micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above.  I think the
system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of
heartache and automatic rounding.

Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if
there's any way to revisit this, I'm there.  We're just about to do
another Armory release and could support this very easily.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Troy Benjegerdes
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 04:50:14PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
  Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community
  coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
  this manner.
 
 
 That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would
 have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal
 balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen.
 Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't.
 Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people
 would get that wrong.

I think the ship of hand-wavy, data-free logic sailed with 
'money supply == 21 million', so why not enjoy the ride? If we care about
real people and real use cases, then let's talk about indexing the money 
supply to some blockchain-observable value and add demurrage instead of 
of bikeshedding the color of the latest coat of paint.

 
 If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional
 pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for
 that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life
 mBTC is a pretty good fit.
 
 Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous
 Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on
 rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some
 business cases already.
 
 Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
  Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
  popular software systems have been written with that assumption.
 
 
 Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at
 all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure
 that they're not surprised :)

I'm surprised every time I pull up to a gas pump and the price is 3.24
per gallon. But I don't really care what the price is, as long as there's 
an e85 pump. If I could pay at the pump with bitcoin, I wouldn't even look
at the price, I'd only care if my tank got filled up or if I have to drive
slower to get better mileage.

Hell, I'd have an app that would tell me what gas station to go to that got
me the best miles per bitcoin based on where I actually wanted to go.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Troy Benjegerdes
cynic hat: on

Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth,
so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC
now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, 
and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin
money supply inflation competition.


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 vendor hat: on
 
 Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC
 internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others
 in the community.  Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will
 catch up, I suppose.
 
 Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
  Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
  ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
  uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
  additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
  transition.
 
 
  I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting
  people to care.
 
  Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring
  shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing
  happens.
 
  I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change
  to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some
  exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also
  mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc.
 
  Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final
  unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated
  education effort.
 
  Wladimir
 
 
 
 -- 
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 
 --
 Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
 Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Tamas Blummer

On 13.03.2014, at 17:14, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

 We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for
 NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch
 micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above.  I think the
 system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of
 heartache and automatic rounding.
 
 Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if
 there's any way to revisit this, I'm there.  We're just about to do
 another Armory release and could support this very easily.
 

Not suprised that people dealing with real world finance problems 
and people who are not engineers come to the same conclusion. 
Welcome Alan!

Why not add 'bit' as an option or even default to Armory?

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
Founder, CEO
Bits of Proof
http://bitsofproof.com



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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Tamas Blummer
BTW, its not like this would be the first time this was raised, instead the 
ship left while ignoring arguments.

The idea of is up there for votes since March 2013 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149150.0
and received the most votes. 

I remembered this last time on this list here:

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31640769/

Regards,

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Melvin Carvalho
On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community
 coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
 this manner.


 That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would
 have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal
 balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen.
 Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't.
 Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people
 would get that wrong.

 If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional
 pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for
 that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life
 mBTC is a pretty good fit.

 Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous
 Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on
 rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some
 business cases already.

 Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
 Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
 popular software systems have been written with that assumption.


 Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at
 all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure
 that they're not surprised :)

 The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress
 more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your
 preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if
 the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors
 catch up.


+1 agree with Mike on everything

A couple of points:

1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits (
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they
got quite a few donations

2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to
a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making
(If I understood correctly)

I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default.





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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Allen Piscitello
Mike is making an assumption that is not necessary, which is the price of
the most commonly used unit should be between is $.50 and $1000.  The issue
to revisit or not shouldn't require $1,000,000 Bitcoin price.  Typing a ton
of decimals is incredibly annoying.  Doing the mental math in my head is
annoying.  Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more
annoying than 3123.45 uBTC.

The points that people liked mBTC better than BTC doesn't mean anything
when comparing uBTC to mBTC.  Many people just stopped thinking at the mBTC
level, do not understand the implications involved in switching to uBTC, or
even considered uBTC.  The idea that we can just poll what people want to
give them the ideal experience is also flawed, in that users often don't
know what they want until they have it in front of them.

There is basically no downside to uBTC, except a few places already
switched to mBTC.  For exchanges, which are dealing with decimals since
they will do BTC/USD rather than the opposite, it might make sense for them
to continue to use mBTC or BTC.  For wallets and prices for users,
especially when there are large decimals since the price is still based on
more stable currencies, then converted to Bitcoin, let's switch to what is
easiest.

I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than
some people already did it).  On the other hand, I've seen numerous great
reasons for switching to uBTC.

My two cents.


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Melvin Carvalho
melvincarva...@gmail.comwrote:




 On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community
 coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in
 this manner.


 That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then
 would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal
 balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen.
 Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't.
 Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people
 would get that wrong.

 If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional
 pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for
 that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life
 mBTC is a pretty good fit.

 Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the
 famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists
 on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some
 business cases already.

 Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the
 Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result,
 popular software systems have been written with that assumption.


 Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components
 at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure
 that they're not surprised :)

 The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress
 more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your
 preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if
 the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors
 catch up.


 +1 agree with Mike on everything

 A couple of points:

 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits (
 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved,
 they got quite a few donations

 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to
 a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making
 (If I understood correctly)

 I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default.





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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mike Hearn

 Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying
 than 3123.45 uBTC.


This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a
cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the
price of an expensive holiday.

If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution: do
the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like 3.12
mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some wallets
already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision whilst
still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin Wallet
does).


 I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than
 some people already did it).


That's the good argument!
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mark Friedenbach
This ship may have already sailed, but...

Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very
well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a
suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within
the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications.

On 03/13/2014 09:29 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:
 Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if
 there's any way to revisit this, I'm there.  We're just about to do
 another Armory release and could support this very easily.
 
 mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future.  Just
 a question of when, not if.
 
 People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small
 values (e.g. Yen) just fine.
 People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field
 experience shows.
 
 vendor hat: on  To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting
 any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient
 today, not in the future.
 
 I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows:  To support
 accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point
 conversion must be performed.  This produces a situation where your
 accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers
 in the bitcoin software.  That, in turn, making auditing more
 difficult, particularly for outsiders.
 
 Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that --
 like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can
 solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch.
 

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:
 Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very
 well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a
 suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within
 the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications.

Yes.  That was in Tamas's recursive link, and also brought up on
github by jcorgan.  +1

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Allen Piscitello
It certainly is not subjective, in that people are far more used to dealing
with whole numbers than decimals.  Try reading the first one, then reading
the second one.  Tell those numbers to someone else, have them write it
down, and see how many people screw up the first vs. the second.  This has
nothing to do with whether it looks expensive.  There are reasons for
wanting the numbers to be higher as well, as evidenced by the number of
Dogecoin enthusiasts who like having more, even if it doesn't matter.
 That part gets more subjective, but still favors micros in most cases.
 Sure, 3000 may sound like a lot, but if you have a lot more, it's all a
different scale.

If the argument is for keeping things based on what is already done, why
even switch to millis?  After all, everyone is used to full Bitcoins, why
even change to millis?  Whatever your arguments are there, for switching
base bitcoins to millis, try to see why they fail at micros (other than the
subjective argument that I'm used to decimal units of currency being worth
a cup of coffee, even though numerous people all over the world don't have
that conditioning).


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying
 than 3123.45 uBTC.


 This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a
 cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the
 price of an expensive holiday.

 If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution:
 do the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like
 3.12 mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some
 wallets already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision
 whilst still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin
 Wallet does).


 I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than
 some people already did it).


 That's the good argument!

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Luke-Jr
On Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:37:02 PM slush wrote:
 Display based on locale.

Please don't bring locale into this. Bitcoin has always been intentionally 
locale-independent (hence BTC using xxx,xxx,xxx.xx format even in locales 
which swap the commas and periods). Localising display makes different locales 
more or less incompatible at a human level, even if they use the same 
blockchain.

Luke

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mike Hearn

 Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking about
 it.  I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory release.


Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on a
mailing list does not make consensus ;)

If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to mBTC,
that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the patches for
instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to change again so soon.
So uBTC would make you different to most of the other wallets and services
in wide usage.

If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a
competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as indicating
some kind of community consensus.

Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of)

blockchain.info
MultiBit
Bitcoin Wallet (Android)
Hive
Bitcoinity
KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings, uBTC
not an option)
Mullvad
btcstore.eu

Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the former
has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The latter only has
faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense.
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Alan Reiner


On 03/13/2014 01:51 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:

 Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking
 about it.  I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory
 release.


 Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on
 a mailing list does not make consensus ;)

 If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to
 mBTC, that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the
 patches for instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to
 change again so soon. So uBTC would make you different to most of the
 other wallets and services in wide usage. 

 If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a
 competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as
 indicating some kind of community consensus.

 Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of)

 blockchain.info http://blockchain.info
 MultiBit
 Bitcoin Wallet (Android)
 Hive
 Bitcoinity
 KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings,
 uBTC not an option)
 Mullvad
 btcstore.eu http://btcstore.eu

 Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the
 former has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The
 latter only has faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense.

I actually was not aware that so many had already switched to mBTC.   I
guess it shows how much I use other wallets. 

You misunderstood my consensus comment.   I was simply stating the
consensus of debating on the mailing list endlessly is not as
effective as doing it.  Thus I was just going to do it and see who
follows.  But that also assumed there was not a critical mass who'd
already switched -- I must admit I'm not so confident anymore...

I am/so strongly opposed //to mBTC /compared to uBTC, I was ready to
take a small leap of faith (with associated risks), to help push the
consensus.  Of course it would still remain configurable, but the
default will make a big difference.

-Alan
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jorge Timón
On 3/13/14, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote:
 cynic hat: on

 Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth,
 so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC
 now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or
 whatever,
 and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin
 money supply inflation competition.

No, even if bitcoin crashes to 1 usd you don't need to change back to
BTC, you can keep the existing-accounting-tools friendly micro. That's
the whole point, having one true only unit change. You would only
need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't
seem necessary anytime soon.

On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:
 I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift
 any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have
 heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible
 through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take
 massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet.

We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to
make the decision.

On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying
 than 3123.45 uBTC.


 This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a
 cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the
 price of an expensive holiday.

This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd?

It won't look like an expensive holiday to, say, someone used to Viet
Nam Dong (VND), Uzbekistani Som (UZS) or Mongolian Tugrik (MNT).

http://coinmill.com/BTC_calculator.html#BTC= 0.00312345


People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of
flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros,
maybe they like it too.

So the only valid argument I've heard in favor of mBTC so far is some
wallets/services are doing it wrong already.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Mike Hearn

 You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork,
 which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon.


+

We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make
 the decision.


Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price?


 This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd?


The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have
roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the
Bitcoin userbase at the moment.


 People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of
 flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros,
 maybe they like it too.


Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a
fallacy now, is it?

But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit
all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five
minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and
switching is the best use of their time :o
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Ben Davenport
Another vote in support of uBTC. I made my position clear in May of last
year. Since then, Dogecoin has essentially PROVEN the psychological value
of a low-valued large-balance currency.

(From: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.msg2334059#msg2334059)

The whole unit change seems so disruptive and difficult to coordinate now
-- do we really want to have to deal with another one later when there are
way more people to try to coordinate? I really think we should look to the
endgame and figure out where we want to be.

I'd propose moving to uB (micro-bitcoin = 1e-6) as the standard unit now
and forever. For now, it can be referred to as uB or uBTC, but over time,
once it's ubiquitous, it should just be called a bitcoin. Because the
smallest unit is the satoshi (1e-8), this means uB-denominated prices would
get 2 decimal places maximum, which is the most that any consumer wants to
deal with anyway.

At the same time, I'd propose inverting the exchange rate, so instead of
quoting uB/USD = .00013, it would be quoted as USD/uB = 7692. This is
exactly the same way Yen are quoted relative to USD (USDJPY = 100.66), and
is also the same way other private virtual currencies such as WoW gold are
quoted.





On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork,
 which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon.


 +

 We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to
 make the decision.


 Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price?


 This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd?


 The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have
 roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the
 Bitcoin userbase at the moment.


 People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of
 flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros,
 maybe they like it too.


 Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really
 a fallacy now, is it?

 But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit
 all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five
 minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and
 switching is the best use of their time :o


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Drak
I agree with you Jeff. The unit switch needs to happen once and once only,
but that is exactly why I said the defaults really need to change in
Bitcoin-Qt since that is still the main reference implementation and it
will influence others.

Bitpay could also take the lead here and make the switch to their defaults.
That would greatly assist the uBTC movement.

Regardless of what anyone says, Bitcoin-Qt is still the main reference
implementation and the best way to encourage a change in the community at
large is for the default units to be changed here. Core devs can surely
garner enough consensus among themselves to accept and merge a PR to that
effect. That will send a message, more than anything else that can be done.

My two satoshi.

Drak


On 13 March 2014 16:29, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:
  Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if
  there's any way to revisit this, I'm there.  We're just about to do
  another Armory release and could support this very easily.

 mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future.  Just
 a question of when, not if.

 People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small
 values (e.g. Yen) just fine.
 People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field
 experience shows.

 vendor hat: on  To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting
 any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient
 today, not in the future.

 I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows:  To support
 accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point
 conversion must be performed.  This produces a situation where your
 accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers
 in the bitcoin software.  That, in turn, making auditing more
 difficult, particularly for outsiders.

 Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that --
 like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can
 solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch.

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Jorge Timón
On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote:

 You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork,
 which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon.


 +

 We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make
 the decision.


 Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price?

You can just remove my assertion about the likeliness of the need of
sub-satoshis and the main claim still stands.

 The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have
 roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the
 Bitcoin userbase at the moment.

Fair enough, not US-centric but western-centric then.
In any case the 3000 micros will look like expensive claim is still
very relative.

 People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of
 flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros,
 maybe they like it too.


 Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a
 fallacy now, is it?

No, it's not. That's what I said the current adoption by some wallets
and services was the only valid argument immediately after dismantling
the actual fallacy.
Did you missed that last sentence or are you intentionally using a
straw man argument?

In summary, yes, that's point is valid, I'm not saying it isn't. I
just wanted to keep us away from the rest argument but pointing out
they are not logic.
I repeat, that's the ONLY valid argument I've heard so far.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2014-03-13 Thread Un Ix
Second this comment.

A change like this so soon after mt gox debacle would be one more sign of 
bitcoins 'instability' for skeptics and average folk who read only headlines.

In general, it seems some people are looking to try and change the publics 
mental price of BTC which is more of a non-technical challenge. 

Gavin

 On 14/03/2014, at 12:21 am, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote:
 
 cynic hat: on
 
 Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth,
 so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC
 now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or 
 whatever, 
 and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin
 money supply inflation competition.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 vendor hat: on
 
 Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC
 internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others
 in the community.  Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will
 catch up, I suppose.
 
 Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:
 
 Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
 ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was
 uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in
 additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place
 transition.
 
 
 I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting
 people to care.
 
 Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring
 shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing
 happens.
 
 I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change
 to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some
 exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also
 mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc.
 
 Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final
 unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated
 education effort.
 
 Wladimir
 
 
 
 -- 
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/
 
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 7 elements  earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop
 
  Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
 nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
 
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-16 Thread Jacob Lyles
One of the strongest results from psychology is the power of defaults over
people's 
behaviohttp://danariely.com/2008/05/05/3-main-lessons-of-psychology/r.
Opt-in vs. opt-out national organ donation policies mean the difference
between organ donation rates under ~10% to over ~90%. Most people stick
with the default option.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:

 On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45:51 AM Melvin Carvalho wrote:
  Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
  display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown
 display
  option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?

 There's already a dropdown display option...


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Adam Back
While we're discussing the emotive (though actually of real relevance for
bitcoin user comprehension and sentiment) I couldnt resisnt to add some
trivia reference it is amusing that a currency rarely in history had to
deflate (remove 0s) rather than inflate (add 0s).  Viz this hyperinflated
fifty trillion zimbabwe dollar note I carry in my wallet for bitcoin
contrast/amusement purposes:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-TRILLION-ZIMBABWE-DOLLARS-CURRENCY-MONEY-US-SELLER-/110671104681

I like Alan's suggestion to show both to avoid denomination confusion.  That
is the one danger, and high risk given irrevocability.

Adam

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 01:37:56AM -0800, Alex Kravets wrote:
 Hi guys,

Alex, you're top-posting and not trimming your replies.
 
 I've seen many many non-geeks be utterly intimidated and confused by
 0.000X quantities and/or mBTC  uBTC notation

Yes, people really can't tell any difference between
mm, cm, m, dm and km. Not.
 
 
 Yes, $10 being rougnly 10,000 Won in South Korean is a great example where
 large amounts of units work very well in a major economy.

You're trying to invent a new symbol for the same unit, instead
of using an established, generic system of prefixes.
That's pretty insane.
 
 
 FWIW,  I would prefer the entire switch-over be done *once* *and *at the
 same time switching both BTC to XBT and using the following

I would prefer that nobody does any such silly thing. 
 
 
 Currency Code *: *XBT
 Unit Definition  *: *1 Bit = 100 Satoshis
 
 Addition benefit is splitting the term Bitcoin/bitcoin (as in Network and
 currency unit) into Bitcoin (network) and Bit (the unit).

Bitcoin is not measured in bits. Bits are units of information, and
are measured in bits, kbits, Mbits, Gbits, Tbits, Pbits etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate
 
 
 Perhaps this project/process should have a name and be listed on a road map
 somewhere

What would a sane person think if he saw that on the roadmap, you think?
 
 *BRCS: *Bitcoin Re-denomination and [Currency] Code Standardization project

Ever heard of SI unit prefixes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix
 
 
 Cheers ...
 
 
 
 
 
 On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote:
 
  On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 05:53:16PM -0500, Alan Reiner wrote:
   I really like the XBT idea.  It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO
 
  I really don't. Just use the SI prefixes.
 
   currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've
   defined the XBT).  And I do agree that going right to uBTC and
   skipping mBTC makes sense, too.
 
  The display units should be choosable by the user.
 
   I'd prefer them not be called micro bitcoins.  I really want to call
   them microbes ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money
 
  Why on earth?
 
   transfer :)  Please give me 872 microbes.  Perhaps we just call them
   bits.  Or even micros or microbits.  As I write this, I realize
   there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already...
  
   But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further
   confusion when people use different names for the new unit.  It's not
   guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it
   into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a
   chance to make the transition even easier.
 
  The reason SI prefixes were invented is exactly to preven that case.
 
 
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Drak
On 14 November 2013 23:01, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:

 I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at
 the
 same time.


A very good idea.


 Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term confirmations (plural) to
 refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is buried. We also use the term
 confirmation to refer to the point where a transaction is accepted as
 paid.
 IMO, the latter use makes sense, but the former leads to confusion
 especially
 in light of scamcoins which abuse this confusion to claim they have faster
 confirmations, implying that the actual confirmation occurs faster when it
 really doesn't. 5 blocks deep may not be more clear to laymen, but at
 least
 it makes it harder for people to confuse with actual confirmation.


I think people are more familiar with check clearance - the payment/check
has cleared.

If confirmation and n confirmations together are problematic, I'd talk
about cleared payments and n confirmations

So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait
until the payment has been confirmed n times.
Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings
and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon.
I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks.

Without the technical details, I just explain to normal bitcoin users that
the Bitcoin network checks and confirms the payment is valid (multiple
times).

I think we all know the problems with the term address. People naturally
 compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate
 fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using invoice id to
 refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more
 natural
 understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment
 protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon?


I think key id is a bit alien at user level - it's not something they are
used to.
For years, people had a problem with  email address, instead using email
number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email
address
So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when
qualified as a foo address and not just an address

You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since
no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the
destination.

People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with
paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are
bitcoin address or bitcoin id.

Regards,

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Luke-Jr
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote:
 So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait
 until the payment has been confirmed n times.
 Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings
 and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon.
 I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks.

Confirmations in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to it 
because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they would 
expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks, then 
perhaps witnessed N times?

 For years, people had a problem with  email address, instead using email
 number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email
 address
 So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when
 qualified as a foo address and not just an address
 
 You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since
 no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the
 destination.
 
 People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with
 paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are
 bitcoin address or bitcoin id.

I think you might be demonstrating my point with regard to user confusion 
here. Bitcoin addresses are *not* like email addresses, paypal ids, etc. 
Bitcoin addresses aren't the destination - they're point to a destination (an 
account in a wallet), but they also represent information such as who is 
paying and what for - in other words, a specific invoice.

Luke

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/15/13 4:41 PM, Drak wrote:
 For years, people had a problem with  email address, instead
 using email number but they got there eventually. Most people
 nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin
 address make better sense here when qualified as a foo address
 and not just an address
 
 You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id
 since no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a
 payment, not the destination.
 
 People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar
 with paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid
 contenders are bitcoin address or bitcoin id.

No, no no. That's precisely the problem! Bitcoin pubkey-hashes are not
like email address, physical address, or paypal address. These latter
things are fixed pieces of information that stay constant over time.
Bitcoin keys, on the other hand, must be one-use-only. We want to
break this association, not strengthen it.


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Jean-Paul Kogelman
On Nov 15, 2013, at 05:10 PM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote:So "a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to waituntil the payment has been confirmed n times".Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meaningsand you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon.I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word "blocks". "Confirmations" in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to it  because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they would  expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks, then  perhaps "witnessed N times"? Why not call it "Clearing" for transactions with  6 confirmations and "Cleared" for = 6?The round ticker should be enough of an indication of the progress.--
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Drak
On 16 November 2013 01:10, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:

 On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote:
  So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait
  until the payment has been confirmed n times.
  Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings
  and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon.
  I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks.

 Confirmations in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to
 it
 because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they
 would
 expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks,
 then
 perhaps witnessed N times?


If you are talking about user interface, I don't think you have to be
technically correct. It must make sense to the user.
A user cares about his balance, and did a payment go through, and did my
payment arrive/clear.

The UI is for their benefit.


  For years, people had a problem with  email address, instead using
 email
  number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email
  address
  So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when
  qualified as a foo address and not just an address
 
  You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since
  no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not
 the
  destination.
 
  People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with
  paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders
 are
  bitcoin address or bitcoin id.

 I think you might be demonstrating my point with regard to user confusion
 here. Bitcoin addresses are *not* like email addresses, paypal ids, etc.
 Bitcoin addresses aren't the destination - they're point to a destination
 (an
 account in a wallet), but they also represent information such as who is
 paying and what for - in other words, a specific invoice.


Maybe, but again from the user's perspective they pay someone, and they
receive money - just like you do with paypal using an email address.
The technical bits in the middle dont matter to the user and trying to crap
stuff in to be technically correct is just confusing to them.

The UI needs to be about the user and fit with his experience of the world.

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-15 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/15/13 5:19 PM, Drak wrote:
 Maybe, but again from the user's perspective they pay someone, and
 they receive money - just like you do with paypal using an email
 address. The technical bits in the middle dont matter to the user
 and trying to crap stuff in to be technically correct is just
 confusing to them.
 
 The UI needs to be about the user and fit with his experience of
 the world.

It's not about being technically correct. It is about protecting the
user from grave breaches of privacy. It is for their own benefit that
they should not be reusing addresses, and if they understood why they
wouldn't.

Unfortunately calling it a bitcoin address and including an address
book in the reference client has had the effect of making people
think that these objects are like paypal address, or email addresses,
but they are not and they should not be treated the same.

Mark

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[Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Melvin Carvalho
Rationale
===

Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence that 1
bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers, because they
feel that putting down $400+ and only getting 1 coin, or having to buy in
multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only after it being explained that
they can buy fractional amounts to they regain interest, apparently
happening increasingly.


Straw Poll


6 months ago there was a straw poll on this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0

Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching

A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000

Satoshi's comments:


Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the
world if it really gets huge.

But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown, for
a total of 8 decimal places internally.  It shows 1.00 but internally it's
1..  If there's massive deflation in the future, the software could
show more decimal places.

If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where the
display shows the decimal point.  Same amount of money, just different
convention for where the ,'s and .'s go.  e.g. moving the decimal place
3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now it shows it as 1,000.00.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267


Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display
option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Luke-Jr
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45:51 AM Melvin Carvalho wrote:
 Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
 display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display
 option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?

There's already a dropdown display option...

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Alan Reiner
I highly recommend that if we make any move towards this, that the
software show verification in both/all units.

For instance, there should be 3 input fields, one for BTC, one for
mBTC one for uBTC.  As the user enters a value in one of the fields,
it would automatically update the other fields with the converted value
as they type.  This makes it really difficult to get it wrong... if
you're typing 10 into the BTC field, thinking it's mBTC, you'll see
10,000 mBTC showing up in the other box as you type.  Similarly, it
should display all units on all verification windows.  Users may also
use it for sanity checking conversion between units.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that this change is important in the long
run:  the current price makes Bitcoin *intimidating* to new users.  But
I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit
in such an established system.  There is no easy way to do this that
doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth.  But it's possible if you
make it idiot-proof enough, and roll it out in the least inconvenient way.

-Alan


On 11/14/2013 06:45 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
 Rationale
 ===

 Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence
 that 1 bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers,
 because they feel that putting down $400+ and only getting 1 coin,
 or having to buy in multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only
 after it being explained that they can buy fractional amounts to they
 regain interest, apparently happening increasingly.


 Straw Poll
 

 6 months ago there was a straw poll on this

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0

 Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching

 A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000

 Satoshi's comments:
 

 Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the
 world if it really gets huge.

 But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown,
 for a total of 8 decimal places internally.  It shows 1.00 but
 internally it's 1..  If there's massive deflation in the
 future, the software could show more decimal places.

 If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where
 the display shows the decimal point.  Same amount of money, just
 different convention for where the ,'s and .'s go.  e.g. moving
 the decimal place 3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now
 it shows it as 1,000.00.

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267


 Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
 display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown
 display option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?



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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
term perspective.

Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

Mark

On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
 ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
 base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
 do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Jeff Garzik
Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to
the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).

 - Jeff
On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
 uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
 the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
 national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
 everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
 many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
 term perspective.

 Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

 Mark

 On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
  ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
  base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
  do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Allen Piscitello
Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC
or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!).  On a more serious note, the
transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very
damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once
rather than twice.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
 smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to be
 taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of
 the reasons we would make such a change in the first place).

 Holy crap these fees are huge!  I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees!



 On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote:
  I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the standard wallet
 unit.It works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units.
 Something that costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC.  This isn't a problem for a
 place like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even
 off on a scale of usable currencies in major economies.
 
  The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in
 lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC
 are worthless!).  On the other hand, it also might help people feel like
 they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and
 reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several
 people worry that 21 million is not enough units).
 
  Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be helpful
 to solving the confusion issue.
 
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io
 mailto:m...@monetize.io m...@monetize.io wrote:
 

 For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
 uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
 the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
 national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
 everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
 many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
 term perspective.

 Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

 Mark

 On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
  ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
  base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
  do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...

 

 
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Sign 

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/14/13 2:00 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
 Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is
 the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard
 fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something
 that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to user
 perception (which is one of the reasons we would make such a change
 in the first place).
 
 Holy crap these fees are huge!  I thought Bitcoin didn't have
 fees!

Well.. they are huge. 20 cents suggested fee for a irrevocable
transaction?
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Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Drak
On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
 smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker,


The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back...

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Drak
On 14 November 2013 22:32, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote:

 On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote:

  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
 smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker,


 The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back...


Hrm. Freudian slip... you know what I mean *fee, not fed :-)

 so in response to those saying the fees are $0.20, actually it's more
like $0.042 at current prices.

Drak
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Luke-Jr
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:07:58 PM Allen Piscitello wrote:
 Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC
 or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!).  On a more serious note, the
 transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very
 damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once
 rather than twice.

I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at the 
same time.

Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term confirmations (plural) to 
refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is buried. We also use the term 
confirmation to refer to the point where a transaction is accepted as paid. 
IMO, the latter use makes sense, but the former leads to confusion especially 
in light of scamcoins which abuse this confusion to claim they have faster 
confirmations, implying that the actual confirmation occurs faster when it 
really doesn't. 5 blocks deep may not be more clear to laymen, but at least 
it makes it harder for people to confuse with actual confirmation.

I think we all know the problems with the term address. People naturally 
compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate 
fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using invoice id to 
refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more natural 
understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment 
protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon?

Thoughts?

Luke

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Luke-Jr
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53:16 PM Alan Reiner wrote:
 I really like the XBT idea.  It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO
 currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've
 defined the XBT).  And I do agree that going right to uBTC and
 skipping mBTC makes sense, too.
 
 I'd prefer them not be called micro bitcoins.  I really want to call
 them microbes ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money
 transfer :)  Please give me 872 microbes.  Perhaps we just call them
 bits.  Or even micros or microbits.  As I write this, I realize
 there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already...
 
 But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further
 confusion when people use different names for the new unit.  It's not
 guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it
 into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a
 chance to make the transition even easier.

As long as we're using SI units, IMO we should stick to SI. That means micro-
bitcoins. *Informally/spoken*, an abbreviation like mibicoins might make 
sense.

Luke

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Mark Friedenbach
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/14/13 3:01 PM, Luke-Jr wrote:
 I think we all know the problems with the term address. People
 naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc,
 which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to
 using invoice id to refer to what is now known as addresses, as
 that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the
 other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps
 address/invoice id use will die out soon?
 
 Thoughts?

key id (thanks sipa).

I know it's a more technical term, but that is rather the point. It
was a fundamental error to call hashed-pubkeys addresses as people
either associate this with account or physical addresses, which also
rarely change.

Security and privacy guarantees of the system are defeated when key
pairs are reused. We should ideally adopt terminology that lead people
to associations of ephemeral, temporary use. key id is at least
neutral in this regard. Can anyone think of something better?

Mark

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote:
 Unless something is recommended/done by the bitcoin core developers I doubt
 much will change at bitcoin user/consumer level.

While the sentiment is appreciated, it seems important to gently push
back a bit, and remind:

This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
deserves input and discussion at every level.

I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to
uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion
is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
the best course, and we can make an easy change.

But we need less core dev fiat not more :)

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Melvin Carvalho
On 15 November 2013 01:37, Daniel F nanot...@gmail.com wrote:

  This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
  decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
  deserves input and discussion at every level.
 
  I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to
  uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion
  is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
  responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
  the best course, and we can make an easy change.
 
  But we need less core dev fiat not more :)
 
 this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to
 generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and
 all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am
 contributing to it :) ).

 i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further
 and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to
 choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units.
 exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units.

 i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to
 'make a decision' of any sort.


I do agree with you here

e.g. I think the question of the ISO code (XBT vs BTC) is probably out of
scope for this thread, and there was no clear consensus, when it came up on
the forums.

As a data point, the price of bitcoin has gone up roughly 1000x since
satoshi made his suggestion that the decimal point could move 3 places.

I dont think it's a question of centralization, I was just seeking opinion
on what people felt about the reference implementation.  How about just
changing the default value in the dropdown from BTC - to mBTC

The the other clients and exchange choose whether they want to follow suit
or not




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Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

2013-11-14 Thread Alan Reiner
I disagree.  There's a real perception and usability issue with the
current interface combined with the current price.  People are
intimidated by the current system, even though the price really reflects
Bitcoin starting to spread its wings (maybe prematurely, bubble-style,
but the price will have to get to this point eventually if Bitcoin will
thrive at the target scale). 

Bitcoin's learning curve is hard enough already.   As silly as it
sounds, feeling insecure because you only 0.00032 BTC, and then using
too many zeroes when paying for your smoothie are problems that can
really turn people off.  You say Let the market sort it out. 
Sometimes the market needs direction and consistency.  Without us doing
anything, we just end up with fragmentation and confusion. 

I'd much prefer we reach a consensus on a path forward and push that
path hard.  Because there's always resistance to change, and confusion
along the way.  The easier and more consistent we can make it, the
smoother it will be.  We want to avoid:

Hey, I'll sell it to you for 382 microbes. 
What is a microbe?  Is that the same as a XBT?
I don't know, my wallet uses NBC.
Well how much BTC is it? Okay, just send me 0.00038200 BTC
Four zeros after the decimal?
Yeah... oh wait you just sent me 10x
...

Again it sounds silly, but this is a real usability issue.

On 11/14/2013 07:37 PM, Daniel F wrote:
 This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
 decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
 deserves input and discussion at every level.

 I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to
 uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion
 is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
 responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
 the best course, and we can make an easy change.

 But we need less core dev fiat not more :)

 this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to
 generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and
 all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am
 contributing to it :) ).

 i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further
 and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to
 choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units.
 exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units.

 i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to
 'make a decision' of any sort.

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