Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first one As a counter argument, many sources (including the BBC) abbreviate million to 'm' (and billion to 'bn'), e.g. $3m, $3bn. I think any similarity with SI units here is coincidental. roy -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03.05.2014 02:54, Ben Davenport wrote: No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. As you said, that's in the US, and I strongly suspect the sole reason is that in the US the currency symbol is written in front of the amount. I often pronounce $10k as ten kilodollar, using it exactly like a SI-prefix. The much better argument against SI prefixes is that the prefixes for values less than 1 tend to be much less well known: Most people know that kilo means 1000, many know that mega means 1,000,000, but few know that micro means 0.001, and those that do tend to confuse micro and nano. Jannis -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIbBAEBAgAGBQJTZTmNAAoJEBrvn3PsoRcmrzYP9R0cch42wV+I21MNVbWEEhfw GjuCqE2Vz7QtI4nhRZ0Eas+MOY6iZD1c2A7cr4BjWx+MdQQwJSMKg/UKruE3j9xs 4QAFQtjvQ69Yd5ztq3ISWM/DpGfPXRvRdIf02ldz0Sf4HMxvqHCcYov3/laOrFnF 3ECpd+JLrU/Wq/HWwuFFXbfyQnpn+9LHx5gcfhV/pW7PwAjwzeaKhY1neQRHhQWq pD8iv2dikqs30nO6bhnrCv/u0N+2iwV4e+J0E+kpBwrCZLeG8MirRRdnLruJ5mnT nGyRNdfPKl5n0Gm4AFkBC3a4VIYwOxAzxdfA55Hn27yxll0GFEQNqR9OCNblGUbQ RWa3Nywa22aYHOTi7evmuP6dVFjF4T8dl8LzDBmeawBsbOeHAUYJgLoHezdwEoto Dt01ML4CmCINnPIFiuab17gpUYg7OXKomOQPrdyaVnP2abgvQCV5bYhMnKKVa25U mW5PK02stxKcTEyHBsz0BG8zmdx5+7A5ySaUHrXs+l3YNBp3idlDUeYIsEBKFAtR vNEGLbV2ZvteOb+tflxuPSjgIaMHD9w6vX2l7+VgkRTms743s/wbQuLb2fXq7osM zws5D/L74zG1ZwsNM04Ygs2GJoJhkb1QXxY9EuoIeiuK3nVeJEWeRGHBEmqCXOPx FB/2U/d69fUTbvUzOXA= =Qo8z -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
vendor hat: on Related: http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting together, agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint customer education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around bits, great. My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Ben On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: vendor hat: on Related: http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
It will also be important to chose the currency symbol for bits at the same time. Lowercase stroke b I think is the obvious choice. Unicode U+0180 Aaron On Friday, May 2, 2014, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: I've been a strong supporter of the 1e-6 unit switch since the beginning and ready to do whatever I can with Armory to help ease that transition. I'm happy to prioritize a release that updates the Armory interface to make bits the default unit, when the time is right. I think it makes sense to get as many apps and services to upgrade nearly simultaneously. My plan is to have a popup on the first load of the new version that briefly introduces the change, and mentions that they can go back to the old way in the settings, but make them work to do it. For the transient period (6 months?) all input boxes will auto-update nearby labels with the converted-to-BTC value as they type, so that they don't have to do any math in their head. Similarly, all displayed BTC values will show both. But the 1e-6 unit will always be default or first unless they explicitly change it in the interface. On 5/2/2014 8:54 PM, Ben Davenport wrote: I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting together, agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint customer education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around bits, great. My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Ben On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.comjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jgar...@bitpay.com'); wrote: vendor hat: on Related: http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.netjavascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net'); https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free.http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing listbitcoin-developm...@lists.sourceforge.net javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net');https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you -- Will Rodgers -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I live in Argentina. Here, 1BTC is around half of a monthly average wage (net), so, as you can imagine, the value of 1 BTC is *very* inconvenient for everyday transactions. Also it presents an important entry barrier for new adopters: It would be easier to accept buying thousands of bits than buying a tiny fraction of a Bitcoin, for the same amount of pesos. Changing to 1e-6 bits will solve both problems. Changing to 1e-6 microbitcoins will solve the first one, but not sure about the second one. Buying (or earning) mili or micro something isn't that sexy either. Finally, against micro and in favor of bits, micro is noted μ, which is also inconvenient (I had to copy and paste it from an other site). Many different notations will be used like: μBTC, uBTC, microBTC and even mBTC. Please prevent that. These arguments also applies to many places in the world (Argentina is 40 out of 72 listed countries in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage). matías On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 10:13 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: I've been a strong supporter of the 1e-6 unit switch since the beginning and ready to do whatever I can with Armory to help ease that transition. I'm happy to prioritize a release that updates the Armory interface to make bits the default unit, when the time is right. I think it makes sense to get as many apps and services to upgrade nearly simultaneously. My plan is to have a popup on the first load of the new version that briefly introduces the change, and mentions that they can go back to the old way in the settings, but make them work to do it. For the transient period (6 months?) all input boxes will auto-update nearby labels with the converted-to-BTC value as they type, so that they don't have to do any math in their head. Similarly, all displayed BTC values will show both. But the 1e-6 unit will always be default or first unless they explicitly change it in the interface. On 5/2/2014 8:54 PM, Ben Davenport wrote: I fully support this (it's what I suggested over a year ago), but what it comes down to is BitPay, Coinbase, Blockchain and Bitstamp getting together, agreeing what they're going to use, and doing a little joint customer education campaign around it. If there's community momentum around bits, great. My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Ben On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: vendor hat: on Related: http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Matías Alejo
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote: My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' *are* the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first one to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here. Luke P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by force of law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually all naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a number that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal). -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Luke, My point is that you never apply the prefixes to the currency unit itself. We don't spend kilodollars or megadollars. Ben On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Luke Dashjr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote: My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' *are* the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first one to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here. Luke P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by force of law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually all naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a number that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal). -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' *are* the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. Excellent point. Also, I frequently hear statements referring to mili-bitcoins, mBTC, pronounced as mili-bits or m-bits; the term bits is very much already in use and not to refer to uBTC. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTZFfuMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhRSfB/434bom68YyzgW0rPek wrkjBHtxK7BgrPvkpMsBpAIWQ+NbKZBNTIZfp78rbUlGdj+3mXc5e+QXSnKHJn6V azUtn4PsvL/iNAIZ91vdMYKRvFkAPfS+XBxR0J3JiAzQb6dshyUm9X6UQyJHGs8O EOS2sQ/c2ZY6hFVE5JfA3jH8ykQy36MNfehbT290kppkcRq24JAVLYz66444CHA1 iMHCfnlcR9hMUVQmzds4QLIPHLLjEqkMxJUe5yxFVeW0MFxu2sG3jfYcOwoqQbBY N+hLHOKuH5mOm6mfJ3/IHVj2dM9jok+JKG0GytZA1kKGbh/KGIhxIxE/06dNakfW QzfS =666/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Think your example is not quite valid ... People say or write $88M or $45k I.e. use SI prefix as a suffix, else it would be more, not less, clear on what amount is being referred to. For me, bits are easy to say and one million as a factor is simple to understand. M-bits, kilobits, millibits, etc are never going to be used by folk in everyday transactions, IMHO Gavin On 3/05/2014, at 10:40 am, Luke Dashjr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:54:37 AM Ben Davenport wrote: My only addition is that I think we should all stop trying to attach SI prefixes to the currency unit. Name me another world currency that uses SI prefixes. No one quotes amounts as 63 k$ or 3 M$. The accepted standard at least in the US is currency-symbolamountmodifier, i.e. $63k or $3M. That may not be accepted form everywhere, but in any case it's an informal format, not a formal one. The important point is there should be one base unit that is not modified with SI prefixes. And I think the arguments are strong for that unit being = 100 satoshi. Huh? Your examples demonstrate the *opposite* of your point. 'k' and 'M' *are* the SI prefixes. People *do* use 63k USD, $63k, and $3M. I'll be the first one to admit SI is terrible, but I don't understand your argument here. Luke P.S. Note that SI units haven't actually ever been adopted, except by force of law. Name me ... that uses SI is a silly thing to say, since virtually all naturally-or-freely-adopted units of any measure have been based on a number that factor to twos and threes (not fives, like decimal). -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Excellent move Jeff. Best would now be to establish XBT as the ISO code for bits. Regards, Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 02.05.2014, at 21:17, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: vendor hat: on Related: http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available. Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free. http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 03:05:25PM +0100, Andreas Schildbach wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. At the moment, I imagine the vast majority of Bitcoin users are familliar with SI units and know what milli- and micro- mean. I doubt that is true of the general population, though. roy -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas. It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin are used to some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices with more than two decimals. With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I don't think this is particularly true. The options people are given are all good in this case and all have their merits. The reason people are converting to fiat using the exchange rates is because right now the exchanges define its value. People have no intuitive idea that a loaf of bread cost X BTC. This isn't going to change anytime soon. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what denomination you use. If we switched to micro we would have 3 extra digits we would be working with on a daily basis which have very little significance. But thats just a western point of view and people could adapt. The real problems are that millibitcoin and microbitcoin are hard to say loud and the both start with 'm' not too many people have a mu key on their keyboard. Even Bitcoin is not nice to say. it has two very hard sounds together in the middle of the word. It would be far easier if we had a system like one ham is 1000 bits, one bacon is 1000 hams. Clearly a ridiculous example but try saying and you'll realize how much easier it is to describe things not that they are clearly differentiable words that are easy to say. I like bits as the lowest one. But its not something you can decide. The common names will have to develop naturally and in all likelihood will differ between regions (I know I know we must keep it standardized but what might be easy to say in North America probably isn't as easy elsewhere.) So give people the options (Let them transact on their own terms). I would say restrict it to BTC milli and micro in the settings that will help nudge people towards even different regions simply having different names for the same quantity as opposed to some place having 10 hams as a pixie. On 14 March 2014 10:14, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I don't know about financial software. I really don't get what you mean by weird notation? Bitcoin Wallet is made for ordinary users. They are used to real-world prices like EUR 1.63 / USD 2.26 (that would be the Espresso example). How can mBTC 3.56 be weird to these people? Granted, there are exceptions, like in Japan. Maybe those would be better served with µBTC as default. Maybe. Up to now, outside of this mailing list nobody requested µBTC. Then again, Japanese userbase is tiny compared to US. On 03/14/2014 04:12 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas. It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin are used to some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices with more than two decimals. With 1 bit = 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good. Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between. Tamas Blummer http://bitsofproof.com On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and you're lobbying for mBTC? On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency. A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de mailto:andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Well, not sure I wanted to subscribe the mbtc vs ubtc list... its a default, not a big deal. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
so much discussion for a visual update... make this a user experiment: -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC -retrieve the results after some time -make the default the most used option 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com: I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Fairly useless experiment, since the vast majority of users will almost always stay at the default. The winner will always be whatever was selected as the default initially. This might work if the default was randomly chosen, and you see what actually annoyed users enough to switch off of it most often. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Ricardo Filipe ricardojdfil...@gmail.comwrote: so much discussion for a visual update... make this a user experiment: -give the user the possibility to use BTC/mBTC/uMTC -retrieve the results after some time -make the default the most used option 2014-03-14 16:15 GMT+00:00 Alex Morcos mor...@gmail.com: I think Mark makes some good arguments. I realize this would only add to the confusion, but... What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit (bit or whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits (ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price. But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the bit base unit with 2 decimals of precision. On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands of rupees in Indonesia. This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves trace lineage to the pound sterling). No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed standards in accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions. However another limitation of these accounting software practices is that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully compliant with any software accounting package out there. We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin foundation changing their practice and their users following suit. On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC 0.003578. Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach andr...@schildbach.de wrote: btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if exchange rates happen to differ by 10%. I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local currency that matters to the users. On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I think * if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin make this a valid option we will change again in future * users do not like changes * we should keep a good standard A good standard should be * built on standards (e.g. SI) * backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he cannot change * do not make changes without users permission * take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed out before sending that e.g. the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC because the user failed to use the correct delimiter. For now a good standard is * simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places or could be * uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility with other software * satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where decimal places in prices are uncommon So I'd prefer: Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places. And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and the desired behavior. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Regarding (ISO standards) currency symbols, XBT is already used as equivalent to 1 Bitcoin in numerous places, and XBC is taken and BT* belongs to Bhutan (and X** is already the default for non-national currency common items of trade), so IMHO we should define something like XUB as microbitcoins so we can have a symbol that doesn't require changing any existing systems and that can be standardized globally. Then those with accounting software that needs to deal with something that has two decimals maximum without losing precision can use that while following well defined standards. And those who don't like large numbers can still chose to show mBTC. - Sent from my phone Den 14 mar 2014 18:18 skrev vv01f vv...@riseup.net: I think * if we change to mBTC because your state currencys price for bitcoin make this a valid option we will change again in future * users do not like changes * we should keep a good standard A good standard should be * built on standards (e.g. SI) * backed by best practice: never force the user to take an option he cannot change * do not make changes without users permission * take care of users at fault when entering 5.967 ot should be pointed out before sending that e.g. the sw understood 5967.000 000 00 BTC instead of 5.967 000 00 BTC because the user failed to use the correct delimiter. For now a good standard is * simply bitcoin as BTC with eight decimal places or could be * uBTC as SI prefix, probably using XBT as a symbol for compatibility with other software * satoshis (w. SI prefixes if numbers are to big) for regions where decimal places in prices are uncommon So I'd prefer: Make the choice transparent to users and set a standard that the user alway should be empowered to use all available decimal places. And there should be a set of official test-cases for wallet software and the desired behavior. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Hello, I see a lot of talk on this topic and get the senst that it is focused on default display only regarding the mBTC / uBTC questions. However, if the focus is broader, involving whether or how to express other currencies or moving further along to what that might even mean (since many people have different ideas about what a currency is) perhaps there is another issue to open, or a process BIP to address how to display other concepts, for example: other currencies microdonations etc. I sense however that may be outside the scope of this thread, so I'll just stop here and try to read samples of the other stuff going on here. -Odinn http://abis.io Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited to two decimal places. Further, spreadsheets hide information if formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Jeff's arguments are understood and supported by those who worked in finance. Existing financial applications have often problems dealing with more than 2 decimals. People who work in finance are used to two decimals. Neither systems nor people in finance have a problem with large numbers though. For above practical reasons I am also for moving to a unit that equals 100 satoshi. I heard the name bit for it which I like. Regards, Tamás Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 03/13/2014 10:32 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited to two decimal places. Further, spreadsheets hide information if formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. I whole-heartedly agree with Jeff. micro-BTC was the way to go to end user confusion and make things easier for software systems which are designed to handle money (i.e. two decimal places). I also echo the sentiment about people being able to handle large numbers well. We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above. I think the system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of heartache and automatic rounding. Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 04:50:14PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. I think the ship of hand-wavy, data-free logic sailed with 'money supply == 21 million', so why not enjoy the ride? If we care about real people and real use cases, then let's talk about indexing the money supply to some blockchain-observable value and add demurrage instead of of bikeshedding the color of the latest coat of paint. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) I'm surprised every time I pull up to a gas pump and the price is 3.24 per gallon. But I don't really care what the price is, as long as there's an e85 pump. If I could pay at the pump with bitcoin, I wouldn't even look at the price, I'd only care if my tank got filled up or if I have to drive slower to get better mileage. Hell, I'd have an app that would tell me what gas station to go to that got me the best miles per bitcoin based on where I actually wanted to go. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 13.03.2014, at 17:14, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above. I think the system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of heartache and automatic rounding. Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. Not suprised that people dealing with real world finance problems and people who are not engineers come to the same conclusion. Welcome Alan! Why not add 'bit' as an option or even default to Armory? Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
BTW, its not like this would be the first time this was raised, instead the ship left while ignoring arguments. The idea of is up there for votes since March 2013 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149150.0 and received the most votes. I remembered this last time on this list here: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31640769/ Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors catch up. +1 agree with Mike on everything A couple of points: 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they got quite a few donations 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making (If I understood correctly) I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Mike is making an assumption that is not necessary, which is the price of the most commonly used unit should be between is $.50 and $1000. The issue to revisit or not shouldn't require $1,000,000 Bitcoin price. Typing a ton of decimals is incredibly annoying. Doing the mental math in my head is annoying. Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. The points that people liked mBTC better than BTC doesn't mean anything when comparing uBTC to mBTC. Many people just stopped thinking at the mBTC level, do not understand the implications involved in switching to uBTC, or even considered uBTC. The idea that we can just poll what people want to give them the ideal experience is also flawed, in that users often don't know what they want until they have it in front of them. There is basically no downside to uBTC, except a few places already switched to mBTC. For exchanges, which are dealing with decimals since they will do BTC/USD rather than the opposite, it might make sense for them to continue to use mBTC or BTC. For wallets and prices for users, especially when there are large decimals since the price is still based on more stable currencies, then converted to Bitcoin, let's switch to what is easiest. I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). On the other hand, I've seen numerous great reasons for switching to uBTC. My two cents. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Melvin Carvalho melvincarva...@gmail.comwrote: On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors catch up. +1 agree with Mike on everything A couple of points: 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they got quite a few donations 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making (If I understood correctly) I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution: do the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like 3.12 mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some wallets already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision whilst still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin Wallet does). I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). That's the good argument! -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
This ship may have already sailed, but... Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications. On 03/13/2014 09:29 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. Just a question of when, not if. People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small values (e.g. Yen) just fine. People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field experience shows. vendor hat: on To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient today, not in the future. I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: To support accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point conversion must be performed. This produces a situation where your accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers in the bitcoin software. That, in turn, making auditing more difficult, particularly for outsiders. Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that -- like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications. Yes. That was in Tamas's recursive link, and also brought up on github by jcorgan. +1 -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
It certainly is not subjective, in that people are far more used to dealing with whole numbers than decimals. Try reading the first one, then reading the second one. Tell those numbers to someone else, have them write it down, and see how many people screw up the first vs. the second. This has nothing to do with whether it looks expensive. There are reasons for wanting the numbers to be higher as well, as evidenced by the number of Dogecoin enthusiasts who like having more, even if it doesn't matter. That part gets more subjective, but still favors micros in most cases. Sure, 3000 may sound like a lot, but if you have a lot more, it's all a different scale. If the argument is for keeping things based on what is already done, why even switch to millis? After all, everyone is used to full Bitcoins, why even change to millis? Whatever your arguments are there, for switching base bitcoins to millis, try to see why they fail at micros (other than the subjective argument that I'm used to decimal units of currency being worth a cup of coffee, even though numerous people all over the world don't have that conditioning). On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution: do the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like 3.12 mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some wallets already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision whilst still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin Wallet does). I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). That's the good argument! -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:37:02 PM slush wrote: Display based on locale. Please don't bring locale into this. Bitcoin has always been intentionally locale-independent (hence BTC using xxx,xxx,xxx.xx format even in locales which swap the commas and periods). Localising display makes different locales more or less incompatible at a human level, even if they use the same blockchain. Luke -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking about it. I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory release. Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on a mailing list does not make consensus ;) If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to mBTC, that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the patches for instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to change again so soon. So uBTC would make you different to most of the other wallets and services in wide usage. If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as indicating some kind of community consensus. Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of) blockchain.info MultiBit Bitcoin Wallet (Android) Hive Bitcoinity KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings, uBTC not an option) Mullvad btcstore.eu Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the former has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The latter only has faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 03/13/2014 01:51 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking about it. I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory release. Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on a mailing list does not make consensus ;) If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to mBTC, that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the patches for instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to change again so soon. So uBTC would make you different to most of the other wallets and services in wide usage. If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as indicating some kind of community consensus. Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of) blockchain.info http://blockchain.info MultiBit Bitcoin Wallet (Android) Hive Bitcoinity KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings, uBTC not an option) Mullvad btcstore.eu http://btcstore.eu Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the former has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The latter only has faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense. I actually was not aware that so many had already switched to mBTC. I guess it shows how much I use other wallets. You misunderstood my consensus comment. I was simply stating the consensus of debating on the mailing list endlessly is not as effective as doing it. Thus I was just going to do it and see who follows. But that also assumed there was not a critical mass who'd already switched -- I must admit I'm not so confident anymore... I am/so strongly opposed //to mBTC /compared to uBTC, I was ready to take a small leap of faith (with associated risks), to help push the consensus. Of course it would still remain configurable, but the default will make a big difference. -Alan -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 3/13/14, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote: cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. No, even if bitcoin crashes to 1 usd you don't need to change back to BTC, you can keep the existing-accounting-tools friendly micro. That's the whole point, having one true only unit change. You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet. We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? It won't look like an expensive holiday to, say, someone used to Viet Nam Dong (VND), Uzbekistani Som (UZS) or Mongolian Tugrik (MNT). http://coinmill.com/BTC_calculator.html#BTC= 0.00312345 People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. So the only valid argument I've heard in favor of mBTC so far is some wallets/services are doing it wrong already. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and switching is the best use of their time :o -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Another vote in support of uBTC. I made my position clear in May of last year. Since then, Dogecoin has essentially PROVEN the psychological value of a low-valued large-balance currency. (From: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.msg2334059#msg2334059) The whole unit change seems so disruptive and difficult to coordinate now -- do we really want to have to deal with another one later when there are way more people to try to coordinate? I really think we should look to the endgame and figure out where we want to be. I'd propose moving to uB (micro-bitcoin = 1e-6) as the standard unit now and forever. For now, it can be referred to as uB or uBTC, but over time, once it's ubiquitous, it should just be called a bitcoin. Because the smallest unit is the satoshi (1e-8), this means uB-denominated prices would get 2 decimal places maximum, which is the most that any consumer wants to deal with anyway. At the same time, I'd propose inverting the exchange rate, so instead of quoting uB/USD = .00013, it would be quoted as USD/uB = 7692. This is exactly the same way Yen are quoted relative to USD (USDJPY = 100.66), and is also the same way other private virtual currencies such as WoW gold are quoted. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and switching is the best use of their time :o -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I agree with you Jeff. The unit switch needs to happen once and once only, but that is exactly why I said the defaults really need to change in Bitcoin-Qt since that is still the main reference implementation and it will influence others. Bitpay could also take the lead here and make the switch to their defaults. That would greatly assist the uBTC movement. Regardless of what anyone says, Bitcoin-Qt is still the main reference implementation and the best way to encourage a change in the community at large is for the default units to be changed here. Core devs can surely garner enough consensus among themselves to accept and merge a PR to that effect. That will send a message, more than anything else that can be done. My two satoshi. Drak On 13 March 2014 16:29, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. Just a question of when, not if. People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small values (e.g. Yen) just fine. People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field experience shows. vendor hat: on To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient today, not in the future. I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: To support accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point conversion must be performed. This produces a situation where your accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers in the bitcoin software. That, in turn, making auditing more difficult, particularly for outsiders. Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that -- like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? You can just remove my assertion about the likeliness of the need of sub-satoshis and the main claim still stands. The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. Fair enough, not US-centric but western-centric then. In any case the 3000 micros will look like expensive claim is still very relative. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? No, it's not. That's what I said the current adoption by some wallets and services was the only valid argument immediately after dismantling the actual fallacy. Did you missed that last sentence or are you intentionally using a straw man argument? In summary, yes, that's point is valid, I'm not saying it isn't. I just wanted to keep us away from the rest argument but pointing out they are not logic. I repeat, that's the ONLY valid argument I've heard so far. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Second this comment. A change like this so soon after mt gox debacle would be one more sign of bitcoins 'instability' for skeptics and average folk who read only headlines. In general, it seems some people are looking to try and change the publics mental price of BTC which is more of a non-technical challenge. Gavin On 14/03/2014, at 12:21 am, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote: cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
One of the strongest results from psychology is the power of defaults over people's behaviohttp://danariely.com/2008/05/05/3-main-lessons-of-psychology/r. Opt-in vs. opt-out national organ donation policies mean the difference between organ donation rates under ~10% to over ~90%. Most people stick with the default option. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45:51 AM Melvin Carvalho wrote: Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default display in the software. Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default? There's already a dropdown display option... -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
While we're discussing the emotive (though actually of real relevance for bitcoin user comprehension and sentiment) I couldnt resisnt to add some trivia reference it is amusing that a currency rarely in history had to deflate (remove 0s) rather than inflate (add 0s). Viz this hyperinflated fifty trillion zimbabwe dollar note I carry in my wallet for bitcoin contrast/amusement purposes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-TRILLION-ZIMBABWE-DOLLARS-CURRENCY-MONEY-US-SELLER-/110671104681 I like Alan's suggestion to show both to avoid denomination confusion. That is the one danger, and high risk given irrevocability. Adam -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 01:37:56AM -0800, Alex Kravets wrote: Hi guys, Alex, you're top-posting and not trimming your replies. I've seen many many non-geeks be utterly intimidated and confused by 0.000X quantities and/or mBTC uBTC notation Yes, people really can't tell any difference between mm, cm, m, dm and km. Not. Yes, $10 being rougnly 10,000 Won in South Korean is a great example where large amounts of units work very well in a major economy. You're trying to invent a new symbol for the same unit, instead of using an established, generic system of prefixes. That's pretty insane. FWIW, I would prefer the entire switch-over be done *once* *and *at the same time switching both BTC to XBT and using the following I would prefer that nobody does any such silly thing. Currency Code *: *XBT Unit Definition *: *1 Bit = 100 Satoshis Addition benefit is splitting the term Bitcoin/bitcoin (as in Network and currency unit) into Bitcoin (network) and Bit (the unit). Bitcoin is not measured in bits. Bits are units of information, and are measured in bits, kbits, Mbits, Gbits, Tbits, Pbits etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate Perhaps this project/process should have a name and be listed on a road map somewhere What would a sane person think if he saw that on the roadmap, you think? *BRCS: *Bitcoin Re-denomination and [Currency] Code Standardization project Ever heard of SI unit prefixes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix Cheers ... On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 05:53:16PM -0500, Alan Reiner wrote: I really like the XBT idea. It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO I really don't. Just use the SI prefixes. currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've defined the XBT). And I do agree that going right to uBTC and skipping mBTC makes sense, too. The display units should be choosable by the user. I'd prefer them not be called micro bitcoins. I really want to call them microbes ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money Why on earth? transfer :) Please give me 872 microbes. Perhaps we just call them bits. Or even micros or microbits. As I write this, I realize there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already... But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further confusion when people use different names for the new unit. It's not guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a chance to make the transition even easier. The reason SI prefixes were invented is exactly to preven that case. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Alex Kravets http://www.linkedin.com/in/akravets def redPill = ' Scala http://www.scala-lang.org/ [[ brutal honesty http://goo.gl/vwydt is the best policy ]] -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 14 November 2013 23:01, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at the same time. A very good idea. Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term confirmations (plural) to refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is buried. We also use the term confirmation to refer to the point where a transaction is accepted as paid. IMO, the latter use makes sense, but the former leads to confusion especially in light of scamcoins which abuse this confusion to claim they have faster confirmations, implying that the actual confirmation occurs faster when it really doesn't. 5 blocks deep may not be more clear to laymen, but at least it makes it harder for people to confuse with actual confirmation. I think people are more familiar with check clearance - the payment/check has cleared. If confirmation and n confirmations together are problematic, I'd talk about cleared payments and n confirmations So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait until the payment has been confirmed n times. Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon. I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks. Without the technical details, I just explain to normal bitcoin users that the Bitcoin network checks and confirms the payment is valid (multiple times). I think we all know the problems with the term address. People naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using invoice id to refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon? I think key id is a bit alien at user level - it's not something they are used to. For years, people had a problem with email address, instead using email number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when qualified as a foo address and not just an address You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the destination. People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are bitcoin address or bitcoin id. Regards, Drak -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote: So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait until the payment has been confirmed n times. Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon. I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks. Confirmations in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to it because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they would expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks, then perhaps witnessed N times? For years, people had a problem with email address, instead using email number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when qualified as a foo address and not just an address You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the destination. People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are bitcoin address or bitcoin id. I think you might be demonstrating my point with regard to user confusion here. Bitcoin addresses are *not* like email addresses, paypal ids, etc. Bitcoin addresses aren't the destination - they're point to a destination (an account in a wallet), but they also represent information such as who is paying and what for - in other words, a specific invoice. Luke -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/15/13 4:41 PM, Drak wrote: For years, people had a problem with email address, instead using email number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when qualified as a foo address and not just an address You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the destination. People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are bitcoin address or bitcoin id. No, no no. That's precisely the problem! Bitcoin pubkey-hashes are not like email address, physical address, or paypal address. These latter things are fixed pieces of information that stay constant over time. Bitcoin keys, on the other hand, must be one-use-only. We want to break this association, not strengthen it. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShsDqAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4e+UQAJBk3N7y/1ph8k6K/tPn2RB4 t0TiI46j0WuUghnCiDSOhQiL0EnUWUX8tCa6jH/3ASafBLKVey2LA7LeYoFZXpqJ QEk5S7+eroA6uzzhViDTcoJJ7yH+ivd6dioVApirfnHVYiq6TZuTULhN/5zM6g1J WehI9Rg2C7wj+I71yPJDeGAdtyOeX0iKQy3hN+q7+RIgeZC1viwsq81u6dzVjIZM aPIk6S2VYHSUKhd7wSg+AprCV7jwftKhxDrW6R6KmOGYIG+JdqVnaErc5Wm7ujXk Jnoh6UsQrcx9ck8I4sRTcbb5jGme1taN8RDcKifYqzTVQAr/ziVRqYY57fNAJMm2 lJZ0ctVD1+UB96DzQB4wCuWRoFF5+I9kD2hoEAXA4O9tqcou48lTQ25DAnkcusd+ dD0SfcRsgda8XqnWffGPYaW0E0dQuvu6elO+rzSh4DSCMkroKIvUwdak8Ah5M2lC DyE/efwO9csImbTc1QukedkPskbOqPOo36sH5GdmObKKFCpORIzIO0aDQE1NM2Ib rJurpU0iJ8eA+QT9lpyWG+jjahYpqyVhPcpfVsIewKhI0izBa352IYPbpCv/pdfM oMO/tBfIwUW3jjav3zyFE47hAwistqfV4xds93K9rqpOmLtDIhSuzfmbuXwmciCM d7/3rYQ6FxtyNkEUa27L =5MWw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Nov 15, 2013, at 05:10 PM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote:So "a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to waituntil the payment has been confirmed n times".Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meaningsand you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon.I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word "blocks". "Confirmations" in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to it because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they would expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks, then perhaps "witnessed N times"? Why not call it "Clearing" for transactions with 6 confirmations and "Cleared" for = 6?The round ticker should be enough of an indication of the progress.-- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 16 November 2013 01:10, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote: On Saturday, November 16, 2013 12:41:56 AM Drak wrote: So a payment clears after one confirmation, but you might want to wait until the payment has been confirmed n times. Then at least you are not using the same word for two different meanings and you're using stuff more familiar in popular lexicon. I dont think it's helpful for users if we use the word blocks. Confirmations in a numeric context isn't correct, though. We're using to it because we've been using Bitcoin so long, but to the average person they would expect it to mean something more than it is. If not referring to blocks, then perhaps witnessed N times? If you are talking about user interface, I don't think you have to be technically correct. It must make sense to the user. A user cares about his balance, and did a payment go through, and did my payment arrive/clear. The UI is for their benefit. For years, people had a problem with email address, instead using email number but they got there eventually. Most people nowadays use email address So payment address or bitcoin address make better sense here when qualified as a foo address and not just an address You could also call it payment id, but I dont think invoice id since no-one pays to an invoice id that's just a reference for a payment, not the destination. People are very familiar with Paypal these days, and are familiar with paypal address or their paypal id so again I think valid contenders are bitcoin address or bitcoin id. I think you might be demonstrating my point with regard to user confusion here. Bitcoin addresses are *not* like email addresses, paypal ids, etc. Bitcoin addresses aren't the destination - they're point to a destination (an account in a wallet), but they also represent information such as who is paying and what for - in other words, a specific invoice. Maybe, but again from the user's perspective they pay someone, and they receive money - just like you do with paypal using an email address. The technical bits in the middle dont matter to the user and trying to crap stuff in to be technically correct is just confusing to them. The UI needs to be about the user and fit with his experience of the world. Drak -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/15/13 5:19 PM, Drak wrote: Maybe, but again from the user's perspective they pay someone, and they receive money - just like you do with paypal using an email address. The technical bits in the middle dont matter to the user and trying to crap stuff in to be technically correct is just confusing to them. The UI needs to be about the user and fit with his experience of the world. It's not about being technically correct. It is about protecting the user from grave breaches of privacy. It is for their own benefit that they should not be reusing addresses, and if they understood why they wouldn't. Unfortunately calling it a bitcoin address and including an address book in the reference client has had the effect of making people think that these objects are like paypal address, or email addresses, but they are not and they should not be treated the same. Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShsr4AAoJEAdzVfsmodw46nIP/AlDcJh2ET9qYT2ZvddciTk3 dtQDArCkwCW3kYbVjIFT8YtNFftEfkq/qBNnILipLJNN49QduAIlt3aetEE6eJBZ oqYOV2R7GW2yhLDv/GrT6GnB1C9nQ4OuKC6RNpXX4bMpZSrbP9yfyyLqecF1tMBV i8De4XLz1uUvZOo/jwHNeYy/BAZktwdk5hWlgG2yKebRbqVX1Xv70Qb1cPpBgCWm uRDL3bqdZuh6i8NNDQpBqMJ/MP4ZWpIgdHkfO6a3QCq3H0JXyug4t5lkNngCrAI3 KGlSOuYK4Fsfw97xQUBFIaSYFOU+yPDRQK4UGcTqWPLt5YHzUxBFNkOXSnVReudq Em/wlbDkPqm7R6by54fVkG85snJrwmTbD7uxGz2fe1LyzB3HhdOTZyZ1KiyDHqGA zDUFxmH0XNhvVcJvcSFlc38A54oOHTJmfJ3rxJU/q0/5N3ZIBdF8fQ4xIvXXDeeA dO+tul5q78tbO6xyTrbsHO8JRYt4Un8Hjc5mkdqp9gzA8beJFm5+jMZlGBfdl5jR lS9sW7QBxr6m+n2PJ97i+1CgoxTfzOh3jyj93G6Hqx3reTfCu5fSWUhwRnFzJXav qqPBP4Cl+6ocK7+4V1lyfAzMqpYx+GCJ1JZhD0hhwrGglgVPfE0bz7BUGea8U3+T 0pCTlkhWzEbzDp7NtFdY =ShxL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45:51 AM Melvin Carvalho wrote: Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default display in the software. Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default? There's already a dropdown display option... -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I highly recommend that if we make any move towards this, that the software show verification in both/all units. For instance, there should be 3 input fields, one for BTC, one for mBTC one for uBTC. As the user enters a value in one of the fields, it would automatically update the other fields with the converted value as they type. This makes it really difficult to get it wrong... if you're typing 10 into the BTC field, thinking it's mBTC, you'll see 10,000 mBTC showing up in the other box as you type. Similarly, it should display all units on all verification windows. Users may also use it for sanity checking conversion between units. Personally, I'm of the opinion that this change is important in the long run: the current price makes Bitcoin *intimidating* to new users. But I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth. But it's possible if you make it idiot-proof enough, and roll it out in the least inconvenient way. -Alan On 11/14/2013 06:45 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote: Rationale === Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence that 1 bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers, because they feel that putting down $400+ and only getting 1 coin, or having to buy in multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only after it being explained that they can buy fractional amounts to they regain interest, apparently happening increasingly. Straw Poll 6 months ago there was a straw poll on this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0 Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000 Satoshi's comments: Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the world if it really gets huge. But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown, for a total of 8 decimal places internally. It shows 1.00 but internally it's 1.. If there's massive deflation in the future, the software could show more decimal places. If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where the display shows the decimal point. Same amount of money, just different convention for where the ,'s and .'s go. e.g. moving the decimal place 3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now it shows it as 1,000.00. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267 Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default display in the software. Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default? -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long term perspective. Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once. Mark On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20 hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8 SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8 fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0 =QW1i -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). - Jeff On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long term perspective. Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once. Mark On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20 hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8 SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8 fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0 =QW1i -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!). On a more serious note, the transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once rather than twice. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of the reasons we would make such a change in the first place). Holy crap these fees are huge! I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees! On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote: I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the standard wallet unit.It works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units. Something that costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC. This isn't a problem for a place like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even off on a scale of usable currencies in major economies. The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC are worthless!). On the other hand, it also might help people feel like they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several people worry that 21 million is not enough units). Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be helpful to solving the confusion issue. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io mailto:m...@monetize.io m...@monetize.io wrote: For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long term perspective. Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once. Mark On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit in such an established system. There is no easy way to do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth... -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.netBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/14/13 2:00 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of the reasons we would make such a change in the first place). Holy crap these fees are huge! I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees! Well.. they are huge. 20 cents suggested fee for a irrevocable transaction? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShU0EAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4TlAP/33KPX3ypMZ0PyHQVg3OCX21 hUXhTQBBO3JjO7x4HoNqdV0fApfCldq4cl/pNENG74inVuYNH+dUwUBIF6q6Qzfs RU45++yytPob28ZojgrQgZq7/lAvi9qvsg5tLMyLt72uf3Kz1whmiRAHI5qaJ/xW 5w9LfOxXHFVkTQsUPzIjbD2kYAqUNILMzndKSv4YwRruYNm60gxCh2mQvgNr3s1Z oGdLsPhx6AA1+Y6tgvnZVm71dwYUyg7OAafzGtpGEz953/cQwbgTqsZ3CrOiPk67 OJ9XxRPREOyKTDYo1WcM1GlQAq9LOHkMcU5OWS7TX2DzZAbLc7TqmqSMuAHdn6d5 eh+AgRWN1ppgVzHaCfgGSfP4NdXHRuMbDvSSoeiP+JLZ1ateT1aesklOaPRFfieW NUJ61XAFWYCuVEK/ctUhSKMd19Rao23yuly+PtrMHvCw6Zn/LrpA4z2nD4vTFTXi WeFyYwjIDjKBeuQMfWg5I2uMpo+9vC/DA3cwPticV7+LD7wsATHVNWVzuHlmjgTX CPO4tVkqBPk7NsqDreOaVhvgnbAUHknyeDqguYS2LppDGu4P4XiOIHpS3reRyHuc /NbXAvDkR23JGQFeHgdR/E983TdsqUiH3US43Cy3ikEcWm79eNG0cPGuHHVZBjPh AACKjmPS+JR7rBAKFSGl =f9P7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back... Drak -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 14 November 2013 22:32, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote: On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back... Hrm. Freudian slip... you know what I mean *fee, not fed :-) so in response to those saying the fees are $0.20, actually it's more like $0.042 at current prices. Drak -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:07:58 PM Allen Piscitello wrote: Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!). On a more serious note, the transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once rather than twice. I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at the same time. Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term confirmations (plural) to refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is buried. We also use the term confirmation to refer to the point where a transaction is accepted as paid. IMO, the latter use makes sense, but the former leads to confusion especially in light of scamcoins which abuse this confusion to claim they have faster confirmations, implying that the actual confirmation occurs faster when it really doesn't. 5 blocks deep may not be more clear to laymen, but at least it makes it harder for people to confuse with actual confirmation. I think we all know the problems with the term address. People naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using invoice id to refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon? Thoughts? Luke -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53:16 PM Alan Reiner wrote: I really like the XBT idea. It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've defined the XBT). And I do agree that going right to uBTC and skipping mBTC makes sense, too. I'd prefer them not be called micro bitcoins. I really want to call them microbes ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money transfer :) Please give me 872 microbes. Perhaps we just call them bits. Or even micros or microbits. As I write this, I realize there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already... But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further confusion when people use different names for the new unit. It's not guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a chance to make the transition even easier. As long as we're using SI units, IMO we should stick to SI. That means micro- bitcoins. *Informally/spoken*, an abbreviation like mibicoins might make sense. Luke -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/14/13 3:01 PM, Luke-Jr wrote: I think we all know the problems with the term address. People naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using invoice id to refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon? Thoughts? key id (thanks sipa). I know it's a more technical term, but that is rather the point. It was a fundamental error to call hashed-pubkeys addresses as people either associate this with account or physical addresses, which also rarely change. Security and privacy guarantees of the system are defeated when key pairs are reused. We should ideally adopt terminology that lead people to associations of ephemeral, temporary use. key id is at least neutral in this regard. Can anyone think of something better? Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShVieAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4TlkP/i2cZm9NolReIsv6WBNQUGZ6 0VJveOcsOmEXj3ixSyzPRitFl52EOfU+LZaM3liwFPczuIOXZUXOLAJqakxGGsFa cWwvZjrBk13aTR+4dXZ6OWcCNmTfm6+st2+v1MpQcXlHD8J1WtrdrzKr3fNSntir yHbNmF6hPfgLr64m52BhUVrxBg9eiIFDI6VCzmUgk+paNmIxs9dgx7POnz1/hQb3 2FGfNt2J81t4F78mpzjtKx+vHRyHpIKJ2+3mjzcQ7IBkhBgPYnp69TwBSGXbg7l9 6yV0P7DGjWepO5+s96GCjbScYpmZO0gx0ZTn/eamfxh20XuX2fZBEVNd1KnhX4Xq D4UwylGNa5FteRgURtVN5Xdb82jB2qhhr/IkGSgKds24zhHzgvBgvLJBgwtQHwil M/y2DMC70WVEXf0Fz96L1kNYUA6062/ZNlwITRWxkUUJprF+xyN3R+BVWMggBMnR Vjht74MZMkJyYlPQr8BRbYdhgMwv6dh0v5T4M6ck6MjKYj/GLsnEfHyY2d/BNg8c 2nkcBC8Dtv9KoFOk6STS1n7R4ooqepmdsRNPBZUzKvv/NN1B1A8jeluLiN9hSzl1 ubDF/34LJTji8bP9jfDBEND94xdaKjTl+2ISweRttBOOVqCtQlzCQ4udiT7vAntb AYYMBYmYO/A926T+K6Lp =kFj9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Drak d...@zikula.org wrote: Unless something is recommended/done by the bitcoin core developers I doubt much will change at bitcoin user/consumer level. While the sentiment is appreciated, it seems important to gently push back a bit, and remind: This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing decisions. This is something that impacts the community at large, and deserves input and discussion at every level. I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion is generated. If the support is broad, it will be plain from the responses if there is a consensus. Perhaps everyone will agree it is the best course, and we can make an easy change. But we need less core dev fiat not more :) -- Jeff Garzik Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 15 November 2013 01:37, Daniel F nanot...@gmail.com wrote: This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing decisions. This is something that impacts the community at large, and deserves input and discussion at every level. I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion is generated. If the support is broad, it will be plain from the responses if there is a consensus. Perhaps everyone will agree it is the best course, and we can make an easy change. But we need less core dev fiat not more :) this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am contributing to it :) ). i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units. exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units. i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to 'make a decision' of any sort. I do agree with you here e.g. I think the question of the ISO code (XBT vs BTC) is probably out of scope for this thread, and there was no clear consensus, when it came up on the forums. As a data point, the price of bitcoin has gone up roughly 1000x since satoshi made his suggestion that the decimal point could move 3 places. I dont think it's a question of centralization, I was just seeking opinion on what people felt about the reference implementation. How about just changing the default value in the dropdown from BTC - to mBTC The the other clients and exchange choose whether they want to follow suit or not -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I disagree. There's a real perception and usability issue with the current interface combined with the current price. People are intimidated by the current system, even though the price really reflects Bitcoin starting to spread its wings (maybe prematurely, bubble-style, but the price will have to get to this point eventually if Bitcoin will thrive at the target scale). Bitcoin's learning curve is hard enough already. As silly as it sounds, feeling insecure because you only 0.00032 BTC, and then using too many zeroes when paying for your smoothie are problems that can really turn people off. You say Let the market sort it out. Sometimes the market needs direction and consistency. Without us doing anything, we just end up with fragmentation and confusion. I'd much prefer we reach a consensus on a path forward and push that path hard. Because there's always resistance to change, and confusion along the way. The easier and more consistent we can make it, the smoother it will be. We want to avoid: Hey, I'll sell it to you for 382 microbes. What is a microbe? Is that the same as a XBT? I don't know, my wallet uses NBC. Well how much BTC is it? Okay, just send me 0.00038200 BTC Four zeros after the decimal? Yeah... oh wait you just sent me 10x ... Again it sounds silly, but this is a real usability issue. On 11/14/2013 07:37 PM, Daniel F wrote: This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing decisions. This is something that impacts the community at large, and deserves input and discussion at every level. I would suggest posting on all possible forums proposal: switch to uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?) and see what sort of discussion is generated. If the support is broad, it will be plain from the responses if there is a consensus. Perhaps everyone will agree it is the best course, and we can make an easy change. But we need less core dev fiat not more :) this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am contributing to it :) ). i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units. exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units. i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to 'make a decision' of any sort. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
