Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-05 Thread Gordon Mohr
On 5/2/14, 10:41 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as being pedantic and strange. Note that bits

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Aaron Voisine
Bit by bit, it's become clear that it's a bit much to worry even a little bit that overloading the word bit would be every bit as bad as a two bit horse with the bit between it's teeth that bit the hand that feeds it, or a drill bit broken to bits after just a bit of use. Aaron There's no trick

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Un Ix
+1(bit) for your bit on bits. On 4/05/2014, at 2:18 pm, Aaron Voisine vois...@gmail.com wrote: Bit by bit, it's become clear that it's a bit much to worry even a little bit that overloading the word bit would be every bit as bad as a two bit horse with the bit between it's teeth that bit

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Wladimir
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Aaron Voisine vois...@gmail.com wrote: Bit by bit, it's become clear that it's a bit much to worry even a little bit that overloading the word bit would be every bit as bad as a two bit horse with the bit between it's teeth that bit the hand that feeds it, or a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Tamas Blummer
Wladimir, what is missing is a decision to pull for the reference client. Or did I missed that bit? signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Wladimir
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: Wladimir, what is missing is a decision to pull for the reference client. Or did I missed that bit? No opinion - we'll follow whatever the rest does. Wladimir

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-04 Thread Mike Caldwell
I will drink to that! Bitte ein Bit! (A Bit please - aka Bitburger Beer) Mike Sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2014, at 12:17 AM, Aaron Voisine vois...@gmail.com wrote: Bit by bit, it's become clear that it's a bit much to worry even a little bit that overloading the word bit would be every

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread Christophe Biocca
Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors understand the topics they're talking about. Not a day goes by without me seeing neurotypical people get horribly confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same units (not that that can be helped, as the units are

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread slush
Excellent points Christophe! Although moving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of doing this, I don't get that people on this mailing list are fine with calling such unit bit. It's geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing. slush On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread Tamas Blummer
bit has a lot of meanings to geeks, so what. bit means for average people: - something very small, that 100 satoshi is. - part of the name Bitcoin - easy to get conversion 1 coin = 1 million bits = 1 Bitcoin Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO http://bitsofproof.com On 03.05.2014, at 18:02,

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread Mike Caldwell
I agree with the sentiment that most people don't understand either computer science or Bitcoin. The goal of getting people to understand enough about Bitcoin to use it is achievable and a goal that is in scope of our efforts. Getting them to understand computer science at large at the same

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread Chris Pacia
Absent a concerted effort to move to something else other than 'bits', I would be willing to bet the nomenclature moves in that direction anyway. 'Bits' is just a shorten word for 'millibits' (or microbits, if you will). It's easier to say and my guess is people would tend to use it naturally own

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-03 Thread Drak
+1 On 4 May 2014 02:06, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote: Absent a concerted effort to move to something else other than 'bits', I would be willing to bet the nomenclature moves in that direction anyway. 'Bits' is just a shorten word for 'millibits' (or microbits, if you will). It's easier

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-02 Thread Gordon Mohr
[resend - apologies if duplicate] Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transaction values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as 'cents'. But bits has problems as a unit name. Bits will be especially problematic whenever people try to graduate from

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-02 Thread Aaron Voisine
I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as being pedantic and strange. Note that bits was a term for a unit of money long before the

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-05-01 Thread Aaron Voisine
I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard unit. I didn't like the name bits at first, but the more I think about it, the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that it's part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, bits are an obvious

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-23 Thread Danny Hamilton
] Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 11:27 AM To: Chris Pacia Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote: The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the population never uses

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-23 Thread Tamas Blummer
-development] bits: Unit of account On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote: The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most could even name one use of the term

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-23 Thread Chris D'Costa
people don't use bit on a daily basis other than referring to a little bit of something. -Original Message- From: Wladimir [mailto:laa...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 11:27 AM To: Chris Pacia Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account On Sun

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-22 Thread Natanael
I am in favor of xbit, my only concern is if average Joes will consider that name stupid (like various attempts at cool branding with unusual letters like Q, X, Z, etc). We should see if we can get support for it in the community and if there would be any notable opposition against it or not. If

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-21 Thread Tamas Blummer
Here is one to please those looking for a “fully qualified” slang word, that links with the official XBT: xbit (spoken: ex-bit) would rationalise XBT (where X comes from supranational use) and is unique. I personally associate from x to six also supporting the 1e-6 divisor of Bitcoin.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-21 Thread Thomas Voegtlin
Let me make a sacrilegious proposal: keep using the name bitcoin, and shift the decimal point. There would be a short adaption period, where people will need to talk about new bitcoins and old bitcoins in order to disambiguate them. However, Bitcoin users are techies, so I don't think that the

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-21 Thread Tamas Blummer
Thomas V: Your proposal misses the points that: - this is about a unit with 1e-6 Bitcoins or 100 satoshis. - it is not about people who know Bitcoin and are techies, but about those who don’t and aren’t. The reasons for such a unit are more than shifting the comma some places for

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-21 Thread Un Ix
Tamas, xbit is only a typo or spelling error away from XBT, and some folks may assume they refer to the same unit of measure, not knowing the new currency system as developers here do. From your email, I got the idea of using x as a suffix at the end of a number of bits e.g. 17500x, like

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-21 Thread Tamas Blummer
xbit is close to XBT because it would be the same unit, both would mean 100 satoshi or 1e-6 Bitcoin. xbit would be for everyday use, XBT for ISO. I know, the XBT was used by some sites to be a synonym for BTC that is however in my opinion not yet graved in stone until it is used by e.g.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Pieter Wuille
I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes to just one client. I wasn't aware of any discussion about the bits proposal here before. On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christophe Biocca
If you absolutely want a name for some small unit (which may be valuable, not knocking that part of the idea), please use anything other than bits, which is already a massively overloaded term that will confuse the hell out of people: Harddrive costs measured in bits per gigabyte? An itunes movie

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Tamas Blummer
Here is an earlier reference to bits: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits : https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html and here the

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Alan Reiner
I've been a staunch supporter of microbitcoin and would like to do anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options). I'm not so

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Chris Pacia
The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most could even name one use of the term. Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit. On

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Erik Garrison
The world is rapidly becoming a place in which a solid grasp of orders of magnitude could be considered a basic mathematical skill. People are very likely to learn what mBTC and µBTC are simply because they risk their money if they do not. This is not a bad thing and I think stands only to help

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Wladimir
On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote: The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most could even name one use of the term. Plus bit used to be a unit of money way

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Chris Pacia
You're correct, my impression of the term is based of what I experience in the US. If it is more widely used in other cultures that should be a consideration. On Apr 20, 2014 12:27 PM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Chris Pacia ctpa...@gmail.com wrote: The

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
As someone who has put a lot of thought into how to best help typical everyday people understand bitcoin, I strongly favor 1 bit = 1e-6 BTC as being very straightforward to explain to non technical types, and also XBT as one bit. There are a million bits in a bit coin is highly intelligible to

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Arne Brutschy
Hello, While SI units are great for people well versed in them, there is a very good reason people aren't asking for 100 micro dollars in change. The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they are using is the correct one, people WILL send 1000x more or less than

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Jannis Froese
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I agree that a unit based on 1e-6 BTC is easier to use in practice than BTC. The name microbitcoin is ok-ish. Nearly all countries officially use the SI-system, but that doesn't mean that the average citizen knows all the SI prefixes. Mega, kilo and

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
It is a paradigm that is easy to explain and grasp for neurotypical people. The average mind has no problem overloading words and distinguishing the intended meaning from context. For most people, overloading a single syllable word with a new meaning is much less complicated than using a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
Mainly because it is short, memorable, effectively leads the listener to infer the proper meaning, is culturally neutral, is easy to say by speakers of just about any language, and many other reasons. Mike Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Arne Brutschy abruts...@xylon.de

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Oliver Egginger
Hello, just my two 'cents': Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when they mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. - oliver

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christophe Biocca
Culturally neutral? bit in French phonetically collides with slang for phallus (bitte, with a silent e). Apparently it means louse in Turkish as well. Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all the short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. On Sun, Apr

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Gmail
People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea of using the word credit as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not a credit-based system. However, given that the average person has close to no understanding of what credit means, and probably no concern for the

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a cultural reference in the name. For example satoshi would be a reference to Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of who Satoshi turns out to be. Mike Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM,

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Justin A
delurk What about ubit, pronounced YOU-bit, representing 1e-6 bitcoin? Easy to say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required 2 decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one want? /delurk Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
My impression: Good because it is short, memorable, and pronounceable by speakers of most languages (though to most of the world that would be oo-bit, as u being yu is mostly an English thing) Downsides include the fact that μ is not a U, it just resembles one. It is a lowercase M in Greek, a

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Un Ix
Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common usage I.e. bit. My 2 cents goes for bit. Because: Bitcoin is a digital currency, BTC starts with bit, bit refers to a small amount of something in its regular english usage and lastly 99.9876543% of people on the planet

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Mike Caldwell
If bit had to be preceded by a letter I would nominate ebit or xbit (which could still be XBT) Those needing a definition for x could define it as coin/100. That said, I am still more in favor of bit. Xbit would just solve the problems others cite about ambiguity if they had to be solved

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Christopher Paika
Bit is simple phonetically, I'm for it. On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Mike Caldwell mcaldw...@swipeclock.comwrote: If bit had to be preceded by a letter I would nominate ebit or xbit (which could still be XBT) Those needing a definition for x could define it as coin/100. That said,

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Pieter Wuille
On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, Un Ix slashdevn...@hotmail.com wrote: Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in common usage I.e. bit. What units will be called colloquially is not something developers will determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not

Re: [Bitcoin-development] bits: Unit of account

2014-04-20 Thread Tamas Blummer
I think we have two very good candidates both substantiated with arguments for their use in their context: bit - the word for everyday use XBT - the acronym to fit into the ISO currency set. both meaning 100 satoshis or 1e-6 Bitcoin. I am glad that I erred, and this list finaly cares of