Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
On Wed, Feb 04, 2015 at 02:54:43PM +0100, Isidor Zeuner wrote: Hi there, comments in-line: I later wrote up the idea in the context of adding Zerocoin to Bitcoin: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02472.html For the sake of maximum clarity with respect to modelling the value of a Bitcoin, I don't think that approaches which change the number of coins that can possibly be circulated should be encouraged. So, I like the idea of having the sacrificed coins appearing in the mining fees in a future block. But what is meant with OP_DEPTH in this context? From what I read, this operation just manipulates the stack size when evaluating the script, so I don't see how it would affect miner incentives. Oh, where I was saying OP_DEPTH, I was referring to a *hypothetical* opcode; I'd forgotten when I wrote that post that OP_DEPTH is an real opcode. These days I'd suggest you use the (upcoming on BTC/live on Viacoin) OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY opcode instead. Pretty simple really: current blockheight + 1 year worth of blocks CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 165ecbd638ec09226f84c34d3d775d34ca5df4abfa8cb57c signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Hi there, comments in-line: I later wrote up the idea in the context of adding Zerocoin to Bitcoin: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02472.html For the sake of maximum clarity with respect to modelling the value of a Bitcoin, I don't think that approaches which change the number of coins that can possibly be circulated should be encouraged. So, I like the idea of having the sacrificed coins appearing in the mining fees in a future block. But what is meant with OP_DEPTH in this context? From what I read, this operation just manipulates the stack size when evaluating the script, so I don't see how it would affect miner incentives. Best regards, Isidor -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Moving further with the Idea: Alternative to re-adjusting the lottery criteria, the side chain block candidate could be required to prove a work to be eligible for the burn lottery. A mix of required burn, work and luck could be tailored to achieve the desired 51% resilience” of the side chain. The side chain could use work for regular blocks and a much higher “difficulty” parent chain burn lottery for less frequent “checkpoints. Eg. the side chain difficulty of 1/n of Bitcoin is attainable for a small side chain miner community to advance its chain at Bitcoin’s speed. Simultaneously the block candidates would be submitted to a Bitcoin burn lottery with 1/n odds, so the security of the side chain roughly equals that of Bitcoin at every successful burn mined checkpoint. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On Dec 16, 2014, at 1:30 PM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: Let me be more concrete in implementation details: 1) burn transaction sends at least n satoshis to an OP_RETURN h, 2) h mod m matches the bitcoin block hash mod m, for the block the burn transaction was mined into. 3) The side chain block header hashes to h and also contains the bitcoin block hight. 4) a side chain block releases x new side coins Since the burn hash does not reveal in advance which side chain it will be used for, the Bitcoin miner can not selectively block burn mining. They will include loosing bets for the Bitcoin fee. Bitcoin miner have no advantage over independent burn miner of the side chain. Anyone who issues a burn transaction that complies the rules 1-3 has 1/m the chance to win the next block on the side chain. This implies a fair exchange rate of n*m satoshis = x side coins (at the margin). Should two burn transactions fulfill the mod m lottery criteria, then we have a competing fork on the side chain. Just as for Bitcoin, the next block(s) will pick the winner. To contain fork rate, the parameter m would have to be adjusted dynamically, similar to Bitcoins difficulty. It needs to increase if fork rate increases and decrease if no valid block is burned with Bitcoin blocks. Unfortunately SPV can only prove the existence of a transaction, but not the non-existence of an alternative. Therefore the fork rate within a block cycle can not be evaluated with SPV proofs. Rational burn miner who frequently faces and loses head-to-head runs with a competing forks would increase his bet for the next burn cycle, as increasing the individual bet amount has the advantage that if he wins his victory is more stable. Remember the side chain trunk is selected as the one with highest cumulative burn. Consequently cumulative burn within an adjustment period (measured in Bitcoin blocks) is expected to rise in face of high fork rate. If the sample period burn exceeds a target, then it would trigger a rise to the lottery criteria m, reducing the fork rate and vs. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On Dec 10, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: We spend scarce resources external to the digital realm to create Bitcoin. Real world sacrifice is needed to avoid “nothing at stake” and sybil attacks. With Bitcoin we now have a scarce resource within the digital realm, so it appeals my intuition to re-use it for sacrifice instead of linking again an external, real world resource. In following I outline a new mining algorithm for side chains, that burn Bitcoins to secure them. The side chain block validity rules would require that a transaction on the Bitcoin block chain provably destroys Bitcoins with an OP_RET output, that contains the hash of the block header of the side chain. To also introduce a lottery, the burn transaction’s hash is required to satisfy some function of the block hash it was included in on the Bitcoin block chain. For example modulo m of the burn transaction hash must match modulo m of the block hash, that is not known in advance. Those who want to mine the side chain will assemble side chain block candidates that comply the rules of the side chain, then a Bitcoin transaction burning to the hash of the block candidate and submit it to the Bitcoin network. Should he burn transaction be included into the Bitcoin block chain and the Bitcoin block’s hash satisfy the lottery criteria, then the block candidate can be submitted to extend the side chain. A side chain block header sequence would be accepted as side chain trunk if a sequence of Bitcoin SPV proofs for burn transactions prove, that linked blocks have the highest cumulative burn, if compared to alternative sequences. The Bitcoin miner will include burn transactions because they offer Bitcoin fees. Bitcoin miner can not selectively block side chains since the hashes associated with the burn do not disclose which side chain or other project they are for. Here you have a “merged mining” that
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
The output has to be burned otherwise there is no cost of expressing any number of alternate opinions the same time. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On Dec 15, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Isidor Zeuner cryptocurrenc...@quidecco.de wrote: For every participant who could try to decide about the adequateness of the cost, no direct effect comes from the difference between Proof of Burn, and approaches which keep the Bitcoins inside the set of outputs that can still participate. So, any notion which differentiates with respect to this must make some assumption about what defines the interest of the Bitcoin nodes as a community. Best regards, Isidor signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Let me be more concrete in implementation details: 1) burn transaction sends at least n satoshis to an OP_RETURN h, 2) h mod m matches the bitcoin block hash mod m, for the block the burn transaction was mined into. 3) The side chain block header hashes to h and also contains the bitcoin block hight. 4) a side chain block releases x new side coins Since the burn hash does not reveal in advance which side chain it will be used for, the Bitcoin miner can not selectively block burn mining. They will include loosing bets for the Bitcoin fee. Bitcoin miner have no advantage over independent burn miner of the side chain. Anyone who issues a burn transaction that complies the rules 1-3 has 1/m the chance to win the next block on the side chain. This implies a fair exchange rate of n*m satoshis = x side coins (at the margin). Should two burn transactions fulfill the mod m lottery criteria, then we have a competing fork on the side chain. Just as for Bitcoin, the next block(s) will pick the winner. To contain fork rate, the parameter m would have to be adjusted dynamically, similar to Bitcoins difficulty. It needs to increase if fork rate increases and decrease if no valid block is burned with Bitcoin blocks. Unfortunately SPV can only prove the existence of a transaction, but not the non-existence of an alternative. Therefore the fork rate within a block cycle can not be evaluated with SPV proofs. Rational burn miner who frequently faces and loses head-to-head runs with a competing forks would increase his bet for the next burn cycle, as increasing the individual bet amount has the advantage that if he wins his victory is more stable. Remember the side chain trunk is selected as the one with highest cumulative burn. Consequently cumulative burn within an adjustment period (measured in Bitcoin blocks) is expected to rise in face of high fork rate. If the sample period burn exceeds a target, then it would trigger a rise to the lottery criteria m, reducing the fork rate and vs. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On Dec 10, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Tamas Blummer ta...@bitsofproof.com wrote: We spend scarce resources external to the digital realm to create Bitcoin. Real world sacrifice is needed to avoid “nothing at stake” and sybil attacks. With Bitcoin we now have a scarce resource within the digital realm, so it appeals my intuition to re-use it for sacrifice instead of linking again an external, real world resource. In following I outline a new mining algorithm for side chains, that burn Bitcoins to secure them. The side chain block validity rules would require that a transaction on the Bitcoin block chain provably destroys Bitcoins with an OP_RET output, that contains the hash of the block header of the side chain. To also introduce a lottery, the burn transaction’s hash is required to satisfy some function of the block hash it was included in on the Bitcoin block chain. For example modulo m of the burn transaction hash must match modulo m of the block hash, that is not known in advance. Those who want to mine the side chain will assemble side chain block candidates that comply the rules of the side chain, then a Bitcoin transaction burning to the hash of the block candidate and submit it to the Bitcoin network. Should he burn transaction be included into the Bitcoin block chain and the Bitcoin block’s hash satisfy the lottery criteria, then the block candidate can be submitted to extend the side chain. A side chain block header sequence would be accepted as side chain trunk if a sequence of Bitcoin SPV proofs for burn transactions prove, that linked blocks have the highest cumulative burn, if compared to alternative sequences. The Bitcoin miner will include burn transactions because they offer Bitcoin fees. Bitcoin miner can not selectively block side chains since the hashes associated with the burn do not disclose which side chain or other project they are for. Here you have a “merged mining” that does not need Bitcoin miner support or even consent. Mining difficulty of the side chain could be adjusted by stepping up the required burn and/or hardening the criteria that links a burn proof transaction with the bitcoin block hash it is included in. The difficulty to mine with burn would be dynamic and would also imply a floating exchange rate between Bitcoin and the side coin. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof 1172380e63346e3e915b52fcbae838ba958948ac9aa85edd signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:55:50AM +0200, Alex Mizrahi wrote: Usually at this point people say we assume that miners aren't going to collude, otherwise even Bitcoin is not secure. Well, this is BS. The fact that a pool can acquire more than 50% of total hashpower was successfully demonstrated by ghash.io. But the thing is, Bitcoin doesn't offer one a good way to attack the whole, as there are powerful factors which will work against the attacker. But this is not the case with sidechains (or any merged-mined chains, for that matter). And once you have a clear incentive, collusion is much more likely. +1 It's notable that blockstream hasn't published much if anything concrete on what exactly you'd use merge-mined sidechains for; they're even worse than Ethereum in that regard. Proof of Burn is a real cost for following the rules. So what? As long as cost is less than revenue, it is OK. It's even better than that: if an attack does happen, the participants in the consensus system have an incentive to defend against it to maintain the value of their tokens. Proof-of-burn allows that defense to be in response to a threat, and essentially unlimited in size. So now any attacker knows that if they launch an attack in theory the response could be as strong as the value of the system itself. This can be improved upon with systems that allow the tokens to be burned, internal proof-of-burn. This suffers from nothing-at-stake vulnerabilities to an extent, OTOH within the context of the system it is a true sacrifice of value; probably not a big deal in a zookeyv-style block-DAG where multiple lines of history can be combined. Here the incentives of the defenders are even more strongly tipped towards burning their value to preserve the system, not unlike replace-by-fee-scorched-earth thinking. -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 0e0c078667795abe21bfdebb913eba60cc7a625c732f0a89 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Burn mining side chains might be one of the foundation ideas for that ecosystem, enabling permission-less merge mining for anyone with interest in a side chain. I am puzzled by the lack of feedback on the idea. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:21:01AM +0100, Tamas Blummer wrote:
Burn mining side chains might be one of the foundation ideas for that
ecosystem, enabling permission-less merge mining for
anyone with interest in a side chain.
I am puzzled by the lack of feedback on the idea.
It's not a new idea actually - I outlined a system I eventually called
zookeyv¹ based on the notion of sacrificing Bitcoins to achieve
consensus a year and a half ago on #bitcoin-wizards. The discussion
started here and continued for a few days:
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2013/05/13-05-29.log
I later wrote up the idea in the context of adding Zerocoin to Bitcoin:
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02472.html
For key-value mapping I eventually decided that the system didn't
necessarily need to be a strict linear blockchain - a directed acyclic
graph of commitments had advantages as there needed to be less
syncronization between transactions. This also means that the graph
doesn't necessarily need to be revealed directly in the blockchain,
exposing it to miner censorship. OTOH revealing it makes it easy to
determine if an attacker larger than you exists. These days I'd suggest
using timelock crypto to defeat miner censorship, while ensuring that in
principle consensus over all possible parts of the chain can eventually
be reached.²
Proof-of-sacrifice for consensus has a few weird properties. For
instance you can defeat attackers after the fact by simply sacrificing
more than the attacker. Not unlike having a infinite amount of mining
equipment available with the only constraint being funds to pay for the
electricity. (which *is* semi-true with altcoins!)
As for your specific example, you can improve it's censorship resistance
by having the transactions commit to a nonce in advance in some way
indistinguishable from normal transactions, and then making the
selection criteria be some function of H(nonce | blockhash) - for
instance highest wins. So long as the chain selection is based on
cumulative difficulty based on a fixed target - as is the case in
Bitcoin proper - you should get a proper incentive to publish blocks, as
well as the total work information rachet effect Bitcoin has against
attackers.
1) In honor of Zooko's triangle.
2) This doesn't necessarily take as much work as you might expect: you
can work backwards from the most recent block(s) if the scheme
requires block B_i to include the decryption key for block B_{i-1}.
--
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Peter,
Thanks for the research, I am glad that the idea, that proof-of-burn can
“transfer proof-of-work
was discussed earlier, as those discussions give some attack vectors that I can
reevaluate in
a new context, that is side chains.
I think that the lottery component I suggested, makes it much more resilient to
“outspend” attack, since
the attacker not only needs to outspend but win the lottery for a reorg. This
raises the cost of the attack
by magnitudes above the regular miner burn cost.
In addition, I suggest the burn transaction to include the Bitcoin block
height, thereby disabling re-use of a burn,
for a later reorg.
Tamas Blummer
Bits of Proof
On Dec 15, 2014, at 1:39 PM, Peter Todd p...@petertodd.org wrote:
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:21:01AM +0100, Tamas Blummer wrote:
Burn mining side chains might be one of the foundation ideas for that
ecosystem, enabling permission-less merge mining for
anyone with interest in a side chain.
I am puzzled by the lack of feedback on the idea.
It's not a new idea actually - I outlined a system I eventually called
zookeyv¹ based on the notion of sacrificing Bitcoins to achieve
consensus a year and a half ago on #bitcoin-wizards. The discussion
started here and continued for a few days:
https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/wizards/2013/05/13-05-29.log
I later wrote up the idea in the context of adding Zerocoin to Bitcoin:
http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg02472.html
For key-value mapping I eventually decided that the system didn't
necessarily need to be a strict linear blockchain - a directed acyclic
graph of commitments had advantages as there needed to be less
syncronization between transactions. This also means that the graph
doesn't necessarily need to be revealed directly in the blockchain,
exposing it to miner censorship. OTOH revealing it makes it easy to
determine if an attacker larger than you exists. These days I'd suggest
using timelock crypto to defeat miner censorship, while ensuring that in
principle consensus over all possible parts of the chain can eventually
be reached.²
Proof-of-sacrifice for consensus has a few weird properties. For
instance you can defeat attackers after the fact by simply sacrificing
more than the attacker. Not unlike having a infinite amount of mining
equipment available with the only constraint being funds to pay for the
electricity. (which *is* semi-true with altcoins!)
As for your specific example, you can improve it's censorship resistance
by having the transactions commit to a nonce in advance in some way
indistinguishable from normal transactions, and then making the
selection criteria be some function of H(nonce | blockhash) - for
instance highest wins. So long as the chain selection is based on
cumulative difficulty based on a fixed target - as is the case in
Bitcoin proper - you should get a proper incentive to publish blocks, as
well as the total work information rachet effect Bitcoin has against
attackers.
1) In honor of Zooko's triangle.
2) This doesn't necessarily take as much work as you might expect: you
can work backwards from the most recent block(s) if the scheme
requires block B_i to include the decryption key for block B_{i-1}.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
The goal is to have an opportunity cost to breaking the rules. Proof of Burn is a real cost for following the rules. For every participant who could try to decide about the adequateness of the cost, no direct effect comes from the difference between Proof of Burn, and approaches which keep the Bitcoins inside the set of outputs that can still participate. So, any notion which differentiates with respect to this must make some assumption about what defines the interest of the Bitcoin nodes as a community. Best regards, Isidor -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
[...] The Bitcoin miner will include burn transactions because they offer Bitcoin fees. Bitcoin miner can not selectively block side chains since the hashes associated with the burn do not disclose which side chain or other project they are for. Here you have a “merged mining” that does not need Bitcoin miner support or even consent. Miners might decide to block all burn transactions, and other nodes might decide to stop relaying them. This may be considered as preferable by all participants who do not want to add more potential for deflation. Best regards, Isidor -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Merged mining a side chain with proof of burn on parent chain
Isodor: Rational Miner will include burn transaction for fee, no doubt. Censoring transactions is against Bitcoin’s core values, unlikely to get wide support for any form of that. Patrick: Mining is at cost even if following the rules. No change to that. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
