Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-10 Thread Jorge Timón
On 12/10/13, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 You're just closed minded.

No, at least to persons have explained you why your proposal is not feasible.
If you wanted to learn, you would have made questions on why those
parts of your proposal are unfeasible.
There have been many proposals about stablecoins in bitcointalk and
other forums (for example, the initial proposals freicoin subforum).
I have participated in several of them trying to find a solution and
I'm now convinced that this is impossible to implement in a secure AND
P2P system.

This is off-topic for this forum, specially if (as you've shown to us)
you are not interested in learning why this proposal is unfeasible.

-- 
Jorge Timón

http://freico.in/

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price
of Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
  This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement
 Proposal
  and is also a very rough draft of one.
 

 Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
 formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
 would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
 obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
 change.

 --
 Andrew Poelstra
 Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
 Web:   http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

 If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney
  worries about, I would have finished high school.   --Edward Snowden


--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
 people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
 currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
 majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
 are using the exchanges.

Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Mike Caldwell
For what it's worth, once upon a time I pushed this agenda on Bitcointalk.  I'd 
say early 2011 or so.  The response I got was so strong and unanimous in favor 
of this point being absolutely non-negotiable that if the money supply were 
anything other than fixed, Bitcoin may as well be pretend e-dollars.  I was not 
just persuaded against it, I was put in my place.

I believe that if there ever becomes a consensus that Bitcoin's inflation 
parameters were a show-stopper for the Bitcoin economy, that the power to 
correct it lies with merchants, who would vote for changing the rules.  I 
believe they would do this not by changing Bitcoin, but by accepting, in 
parallel, a brand new alt coin that reflects the consensus as to how the 
inflation should be.  I believe such an alt coin would have its genesis at 
around the time that consensus moved toward accepting inflation, rather than 
adopting the seignorage of some other alt coin out there today.

Mike/Casascius


From: Ryan Carboni [mailto:ryan.jc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 3:24 PM
To: apoels...@wpsoftware.net
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many people 
bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other currencies 
will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The majority of people 
using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods are using the exchanges.

 My proposal will still allow for 4.9% semi-weekly variations in the price of 
Bitcoin, allowing for it to appreciate 11,800% per year.

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Andrew Poelstra 
as...@sfu.camailto:as...@sfu.ca wrote:
On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 02:01:07PM -0800, Ryan Carboni wrote:
 This is no doubt probably a very controversial Bitcoin Improvement Proposal
 and is also a very rough draft of one.

Ryan, you can stop there already because any change to the inflation
formula (supposing such a thing is even possible, which it's not)
would be a violation of the trust of those holding the currency, who
obtained it while believing that its inflation algorithm would not
change.

--
Andrew Poelstra
Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.nethttp://wpsoftware.net
Web:   http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew

If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney
 worries about, I would have finished high school.   --Edward Snowden

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Jameson Lopp
To piggyback on Jeff,

Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.

The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
personally focused on.

Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
rejected by a miner's peers.
--
Jameson Lopp
Software Engineer
Bronto Software, Inc

On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
 It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
 people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of other
 currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
 majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
 are using the exchanges.
 
 Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
 with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
 

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Allen Piscitello
I've got a better idea.  Ben Bernake needs a new job.  Let's just let him
set the block reward.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Jameson Lopp jameson.l...@gmail.com wrote:

 To piggyback on Jeff,

 Any proposal that is going to add reliance upon data from third parties
 outside of the Bitcoin network itself is likely going to be rejected
 outright. This opens far too many potential vulnerabilities.

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin
 or the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm
 personally focused on.

 Yeah... you can't just gloss over a little detail like that. There must
 be consensus between the miners, otherwise a solved block will be
 rejected by a miner's peers.
 --
 Jameson Lopp
 Software Engineer
 Bronto Software, Inc

 On 12/09/2013 06:10 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
  On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
  people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
 other
  currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
  majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real
 goods
  are using the exchanges.
 
  Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
  with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.
 


 --
 Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK
 Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
 Download it for free now!

 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Bitcoin-development mailing list
 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
Bitcoin is made of many parts, yes, but not all parts were developed
simultaneously.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.comwrote:

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
 the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
 focused on.


 That is like saying We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
 There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
 I'm personally focused on.

 Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
 that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
 working.

 --
 --
 Gavin Andresen

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Ryan Carboni
You're just closed minded.


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.com wrote:
  It is not a violation of the trust of those holding the currency. Many
  people bought Bitcoin in the hopes that it's value in the relation of
 other
  currencies will increase, not because there's a fixed money supply. The
  majority of people using Bitcoin as a currency in exchange for real goods
  are using the exchanges.

 Your proposal has been met with widespread laughter.  Were I not ill
 with the flu, mockery would ensue as well.

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
 BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread kjj

Ryan Carboni wrote:


Bitcoin lacks a Central Bank.


This is a feature, not a bug.

Also, this is offtopic.  Political debate is thataway -.

bitcoin-development is for development and technical discussion.
--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


Re: [Bitcoin-development] Monetary Authority for Bitcoin

2013-12-09 Thread Rick Wesson
+1


On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Gavin Andresen gavinandre...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Ryan Carboni ryan.jc...@gmail.comwrote:

 The exchanges that are kept track of could be hard coded into Bitcoin or
 the miner could choose, how this works is not something I'm personally
 focused on.


 That is like saying We need a way to travel around the world quickly.
 There will be an anti-gravity technology; how this works is not something
 I'm personally focused on.

 Or, in other words, you are ignoring exactly the sticky, difficult problem
 that would have to be solved for your proposal to have any chance of
 working.

 --
 --
 Gavin Andresen


 --
 Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK
 Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
 Download it for free now!

 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
 ___
 Bitcoin-development mailing list
 Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
 https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--
Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK 
Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base.
Download it for free now!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development