Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Melvin Carvalho
On 21 May 2013 01:59, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:

 At the developer round-table it was asked if the payment protocol would
 alt-chains, and Gavin noted that it has a UTF-8 encoded string
 identifying the network (main or test). As someone with two
 proposals in the works which also require chain/coin identification (one
 for merged mining, one for colored coins), I am opinionated on this. I
 believe that we need a standard mechanism for identifying chains, and
 one which avoids the trap of maintaining a standard registry of
 string-to-chain mappings.

 Any chain can be uniquely identified by its genesis block, 122 random
 bits is more than sufficient for uniquely tagging chains/colored assets,
 and the low-order 16-bytes of the block's hash are effectively random.
 With these facts in mind, I propose that we identify chains by UUID.

 So as to remain reasonably compliant with RFC 4122, I recommend that we
 use Version 4 (random) UUIDs, with the random bits extracted from the
 double-SHA256 hash of the genesis block of the chain. (For colored
 coins, the colored coin definition transaction would be used instead,
 but I will address that in a separate proposal and will say just one
 thing about it: adopting this method for identifying chains/coins will
 greatly assist in adopting the payment protocol to colored coins.)

 The following Python code illustrates how to construct the chain
 identifier from the serialized genesis block:

  from hashlib import sha256
  from uuid import UUID
  def chain_uuid(serialized_genesis_block):
  h = sha256(serialized_genesis_block).digest()
  h = sha256(h).digest()
  h = h[:16]
  h = ''.join([
  h[:6],
  chr(0x40 | ord(h[6])  0x0f),
  h[7],
  chr(0x80 | ord(h[8])  0x3f),
  h[9:]
  ])
  return UUID(bytes=h)

 And some example chain identifiers:

  mainnet:  UUID('6fe28c0a-b6f1-4372-81a6-a246ae63f74f')
  testnet3: UUID('43497fd7-f826-4571-88f4-a30fd9cec3ae')
  namecoin: UUID('70c7a9f0-a2fb-4d48-a635-a70d5b157c80')

 As for encoding the chain identifier, the simplest method is to give
 network the bytes type, but defining a UUID message type is also
 possible. In either case bitcoin mainnet would be the default, so the
 extra 12 bytes (vs: main or test) would only be an issue for
 alt-chains or colored coins.


This is essentially name spacing.  As registries grow namespaces become
more important.  In bitcoin's quest for decentrality there's also the
question of who maintains the registry.

Some out of band algo/hash could work so long as there was a one to one
relationship between the described object and the UUID.  In this case the
gensis block may not uniquely identify a coin.

The normal way to namespace a registry on the internet is to allow it to be
a URI.  In this case an http style uri has the added bonus side effect that
it can be dereferencable and both human and machine readable.  So yes
something like org.bitcoin.* is good, just simply growing things to http
style uris is cleaner, imho



 Kind regards,
 Mark Friedenbach


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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Melvin Carvalho
melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
 Some out of band algo/hash could work so long as there was a one to one
 relationship between the described object and the UUID.  In this case the
 gensis block may not uniquely identify a coin.

What does this mean?  It seems extremely unlikely that two different
genesis blocks will have the same hash.

-- 
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exMULTI, Inc.
jgar...@exmulti.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Melvin Carvalho
On 22 May 2013 16:07, Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Melvin Carvalho
 melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
  Some out of band algo/hash could work so long as there was a one to one
  relationship between the described object and the UUID.  In this case the
  gensis block may not uniquely identify a coin.

 What does this mean?  It seems extremely unlikely that two different
 genesis blocks will have the same hash.


Two coin ecosystems could have the same genesis block



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 jgar...@exmulti.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Melvin Carvalho
melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 22 May 2013 16:07, Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com wrote:

 On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Melvin Carvalho
 melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
  Some out of band algo/hash could work so long as there was a one to one
  relationship between the described object and the UUID.  In this case
  the
  gensis block may not uniquely identify a coin.

 What does this mean?  It seems extremely unlikely that two different
 genesis blocks will have the same hash.


 Two coin ecosystems could have the same genesis block

That has really, really bad side effects.  The whole point of the
bitcoin consensus algorithm is to avoid situations like this.

We don't want to encourage that behavior with code.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgar...@exmulti.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Luke-Jr
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:20:22 PM Jeff Garzik wrote:
 On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Melvin Carvalho
 
 melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 22 May 2013 16:07, Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com wrote:
  On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Melvin Carvalho
  
  melvincarva...@gmail.com wrote:
   Some out of band algo/hash could work so long as there was a one to
   one relationship between the described object and the UUID.  In this
   case the
   gensis block may not uniquely identify a coin.
  
  What does this mean?  It seems extremely unlikely that two different
  genesis blocks will have the same hash.
  
  Two coin ecosystems could have the same genesis block
 
 That has really, really bad side effects.  The whole point of the
 bitcoin consensus algorithm is to avoid situations like this.
 
 We don't want to encourage that behavior with code.

In some cases, multiple currencies can use the same blockchain (not just the 
singular genesis block). This use case *is* something we want to encourage - 
no reason for people to make an entirely new blockchain if their altcoin fits 
within the scope of Bitcoin or another existing altchain.

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Luke-Jr l...@dashjr.org wrote:
 In some cases, multiple currencies can use the same blockchain (not just the
 singular genesis block). This use case *is* something we want to encourage -
 no reason for people to make an entirely new blockchain if their altcoin fits
 within the scope of Bitcoin or another existing altchain.

OK, let me qualify.  Layers on top are one thing, but we really do not
want to support cases like the fork that leaves the genesis block
intact, and leaves the subsidy at 50.0 BTC forever.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgar...@exmulti.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-22 Thread Gavin Andresen
Getting back to the original proposal:

RE: uuid instead of main / test in the payment protocol:

I vote no.

The payment protocol will become at least 3 BIPs:

1) Protocol messages (current gist, essentially)
2) MIME type
3) bitcoin: URI extension

An alt coin will need its own version of (2) and (3), so when you
click on a foocoin: link a foocoin-specific MIME type is fetched and
foocoin.exe is launched to handle the request.

... or a specific MIME type is fetched and delivered to the
HandlesLotsOfCoins application (... and it knows what MIME type it is
getting, so can Do the Right Thing).

If a payment request is delivered via HTTP or email, it will be
bundled up in an envelope of some sort with the MIME type attached.

So, after further thought, I've changed my mind: which coin would be
encoded in the MIME type.  Which chain for that coin would be encoded
in PaymentDetails.network.

-- 
--
Gavin Andresen
Chief Scientist, Bitcoin Foundation
https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-20 Thread Jeff Garzik
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote:
 So as to remain reasonably compliant with RFC 4122, I recommend that we
 use Version 4 (random) UUIDs, with the random bits extracted from the
 double-SHA256 hash of the genesis block of the chain. (For colored
 coins, the colored coin definition transaction would be used instead,
 but I will address that in a separate proposal and will say just one
 thing about it: adopting this method for identifying chains/coins will
 greatly assist in adopting the payment protocol to colored coins.)

This proposal seems closer to Version 5 than Version 4, in spirit.
But given that useful content may be deduced from UUID, it is not
truly applicable to either.  A bitcoin-specific version 6, if you
will.


 And some example chain identifiers:

  mainnet:  UUID('6fe28c0a-b6f1-4372-81a6-a246ae63f74f')
  testnet3: UUID('43497fd7-f826-4571-88f4-a30fd9cec3ae')
  namecoin: UUID('70c7a9f0-a2fb-4d48-a635-a70d5b157c80')

Note that, as this example unintentionally implies, humans are going
to want a side-by-side mapping /anyway/, just to make it readable and
usable to humans.

Almost all useful multi-chain software will require a readable
shortname string anyway, the thing this proposal wishes to avoid.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgar...@exmulti.com

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Re: [Bitcoin-development] UUID to identify chains (payment protocol and elsewhere)

2013-05-20 Thread Mike Hearn
Bitcoinj already has such chain id's and we use standard Java style reverse
DNS names: org.bitcoin.main, etc. If we want a more global naming system
that seems like a good compromise between uniqueness and readability.
On 20 May 2013 19:45, Jeff Garzik jgar...@exmulti.com wrote:

 On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io
 wrote:
  So as to remain reasonably compliant with RFC 4122, I recommend that we
  use Version 4 (random) UUIDs, with the random bits extracted from the
  double-SHA256 hash of the genesis block of the chain. (For colored
  coins, the colored coin definition transaction would be used instead,
  but I will address that in a separate proposal and will say just one
  thing about it: adopting this method for identifying chains/coins will
  greatly assist in adopting the payment protocol to colored coins.)

 This proposal seems closer to Version 5 than Version 4, in spirit.
 But given that useful content may be deduced from UUID, it is not
 truly applicable to either.  A bitcoin-specific version 6, if you
 will.


  And some example chain identifiers:
 
   mainnet:  UUID('6fe28c0a-b6f1-4372-81a6-a246ae63f74f')
   testnet3: UUID('43497fd7-f826-4571-88f4-a30fd9cec3ae')
   namecoin: UUID('70c7a9f0-a2fb-4d48-a635-a70d5b157c80')

 Note that, as this example unintentionally implies, humans are going
 to want a side-by-side mapping /anyway/, just to make it readable and
 usable to humans.

 Almost all useful multi-chain software will require a readable
 shortname string anyway, the thing this proposal wishes to avoid.

 --
 Jeff Garzik
 exMULTI, Inc.
 jgar...@exmulti.com


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