Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-23 Thread Mike Hearn
This happened to one of the merchants at the Bitcoin 2013 conference in San Jose. They sold some T-shirts and accepted zero-confirmation transactions. The transactions depended on other unconfirmed transactions, which never confirmed, so this merchant never got their money. Beyond the fact

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Peter Todd
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 08:02:03AM +, Adam Back wrote: FWIW I've been advocating this kind of thing in various forms for literally years, including to hold fidelity bonded banks honest - what you now call 'federated sidechains' - and most recently Feb 12th on #bitcoin-dev: 19:56 petertodd

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Natanael
Den 22 feb 2015 13:36 skrev Peter Todd p...@petertodd.org: Implementing it as a general purpose scripting language improvement has a lot of advantages, not least of which is that you no longer need to rely entirely on inherently unreliable P2P networking: Promise to never create two signatures

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Matt Whitlock
On Sunday, 22 February 2015, at 2:29 pm, Natanael wrote: In other words, you are unprotected and potentially at greater risk if you create a transaction depending on another zero-confirmation transaction. This happened to one of the merchants at the Bitcoin 2013 conference in San Jose. They

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Bryan Bishop
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 8:11 AM, Adam Back a...@cypherspace.org wrote: away from that too) is how about we explore ways to improve practical security of fast confirmation transactions, and if we find something better, then we can help people migrate to that before deprecating the current

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Peter Todd
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 02:11:31PM +, Adam Back wrote: My actual point outside of the emotive stuff (and I should've stayed away from that too) is how about we explore ways to improve practical security of fast confirmation transactions, and if we find something better, then we can help

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Natanael
Den 22 feb 2015 14:29 skrev Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: Den 22 feb 2015 13:36 skrev Peter Todd p...@petertodd.org: Implementing it as a general purpose scripting language improvement has a lot of advantages, not least of which is that you no longer need to rely entirely on inherently

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Peter Todd
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 22 February 2015 08:50:30 GMT-05:00, Matt Whitlock b...@mattwhitlock.name wrote: On Sunday, 22 February 2015, at 2:29 pm, Natanael wrote: In other words, you are unprotected and potentially at greater risk if you create a transaction

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread joliver
On 2015-02-22 14:33, Peter Todd wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 02:11:31PM +, Adam Back wrote: My actual point outside of the emotive stuff (and I should've stayed away from that too) is how about we explore ways to improve practical security of fast confirmation transactions, and if we

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Justus Ranvier
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/22/2015 10:17 AM, Natanael wrote: The problem with this approach is that it is worthless as a predictor. We aren't dealing with traffic safety and road design - we are dealing with adaptive attackers and malicious miners and pools.

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Natanael
Den 22 feb 2015 17:00 skrev Justus Ranvier justusranv...@riseup.net: On 02/22/2015 07:50 AM, Matt Whitlock wrote: This happened to one of the merchants at the Bitcoin 2013 conference in San Jose. They sold some T-shirts and accepted zero-confirmation transactions. The transactions depended

Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4)

2015-02-22 Thread Natanael
- Sent from my tablet Den 22 feb 2015 17:25 skrev Justus Ranvier justusranv...@riseup.net: You just disproved your own argument. It is possible to predict risk, and therefore to price the risk. Your fault is that you assume the predictions can be reliable and trustable. They can not be. The