Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] SCE receiver-side vs. sender-side response

2019-03-16 Thread Jonathan Morton
> On 17 Mar, 2019, at 12:25 am, Holland, Jake wrote: > > I do think that to capture the value here, the SCE rate probably has to > get back to sender, but I think there's good options for doing so, and > anywhere it doesn't work, (I think?) it just falls back to regular CE, > which is a nice bonu

Re: [Bloat] Packet reordering and RACK (was The "Some Congestion Experienced" ECN codepoint)

2019-03-16 Thread Michael Richardson
David Lang wrote: > if there is no resouce contention, they should be equal. > In practice, since the network devices are more likely to run into resource > contention (think locking overhead between cores if nothing else), it can > easily be faster to sort them at the destinati

[Bloat] SCE receiver-side vs. sender-side response

2019-03-16 Thread Holland, Jake
Hi guys, I was looking through the updates on SCE, and I think this receiver-driven idea is doomed. I mean, good luck and it's a neat idea if it works, but it's got some problems with flexibility: - you don't want to reduce right edge of window, so you can't reduce rwnd faster than data is arri

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Sebastian Moeller
> On Mar 16, 2019, at 22:38, Holland, Jake wrote: > > On 2019-03-15, 11:37, "Mikael Abrahamsson" wrote: >L4S has a much better possibility of actually getting deployment into the >wider Internet packet-moving equipment than anything being talked about >here. Same with PIE as oppo

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Holland, Jake
Yeah, great question. I don't want to answer for the L4S guys, I don't have a good feel for what they might think. But it does concern me that there seems to be at least one tuning parameter that was picked for Reno, which I think I mentioned on the tsvwg list: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Jonathan Morton
> On 16 Mar, 2019, at 11:38 pm, Holland, Jake wrote: > > SCE needs a lot of details filled in, but it's so much cleaner that it > seems to me there's reasonably obvious answers to all (or almost all) of > those detail questions, and because the semantics are so much cleaner, > it's much easier to

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Dave Taht
Dear Vint: BBR, along with all "non ect_1 sending L4S compatable" transports, gets relegated to the dualpi "Classic" queue. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled/ On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 2:57 PM Vint Cerf wrote: > > where does BBR fit into all this? > > v > > > On

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Holland, Jake
On 2019-03-15, 11:37, "Mikael Abrahamsson" wrote: L4S has a much better possibility of actually getting deployment into the wider Internet packet-moving equipment than anything being talked about here. Same with PIE as opposed to FQ_CODEL. I know it's might not be as good, but i

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Michael Richardson
The DSCP code points were also supposed to be local to the AS. They are *supposed* to be recoded at the edges. What is missing the diffedge protocol... MS actually implemented this in Win2K. We have no way to signal the ToS we desire with the ISP, and so they are forced to guess, and they do it w

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Jonathan Foulkes
Thanks Nils, I’d seen that PolicyPlus tool before, and while a nice stand-alone option for any Windows version, it is still a tool for admins. I think we need something regular technical users can use to do things like ‘Make DropBox traffic land in the bulk tin’. Also, there is a good thread ab

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Nils Andreas Svee
You can use group policies on standalone clients, however the Local Group Policy Editor is not available on the Windows Home editions (neither is domain membership AFAIK), and so many people resort to applying the changes they require directly to the registry. There are also tools like Policy P

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Sebastian Moeller
> On Mar 16, 2019, at 10:42, Michael Welzl wrote: > > Good question! …. on Windows in particular, I’d really like to know this too. Well, as far as I can tell it is the group policy editor that is the tool to assign DSCPs to applications, IMHO that is exactly the right place, somewh

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Michael Welzl
Good question! …. on Windows in particular, I’d really like to know this too. The WebRTC Javascript API allows one to influence the DSCP, i.e. browsers normally can do that. Whether that’s true for all OSes, I don’t know. Cheers, Michael > On Mar 16, 2019, at 12:45 AM, David P. Reed wrote:

Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104

2019-03-16 Thread Sebastian Moeller
Hi Dave, On March 16, 2019 12:43:58 AM GMT+01:00, "David P. Reed" wrote: > >My point is that the argument for doing such balancing is that somehow >ISPs at the entry points (representing somehow the goals of source and >destination of each flow) will classify their flows correctly based on >some