Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread Jonathan Morton
> On 10 Jul, 2021, at 2:01 am, Leonard Kleinrock wrote: > > No question that non-stationarity and instability are what we often see in > networks. And, non-stationarity and instability are both topics that lead to > very complex analytical problems in queueing theory. You can find some >

Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread Toke Høiland-Jørgensen via Bloat
"Holland, Jake via Bloat" writes: > Hi David, > > That’s an interesting point, and I think you’re right that packet > arrival is poorly modeled as a Poisson process, because in practice > packet transmissions are very rarely unrelated to other packet > transmissions. > > But now you’ve got me

Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread Leonard Kleinrock
David, No question that non-stationarity and instability are what we often see in networks. And, non-stationarity and instability are both topics that lead to very complex analytical problems in queueing theory. You can find some results on the transient analysis in the queueing theory

Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread Holland, Jake via Bloat
Hi David, That’s an interesting point, and I think you’re right that packet arrival is poorly modeled as a Poisson process, because in practice packet transmissions are very rarely unrelated to other packet transmissions. But now you’ve got me wondering what the right approach is. Do you have

Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread Bob McMahon via Bloat
A bit off topic per the control and queueing theory discussion; a four second latency is going to fail our regression automation rigs. Way too many WiFi users, particularly for games, require sub few hundreds of milliseconds and sometimes even much lower. A TCP connect() getting behind a 4 second

Re: [Bloat] Little's Law mea culpa, but not invalidating my main point

2021-07-09 Thread David P. Reed
Len - I admit I made a mistake in challenging Little's Law as being based on Poisson processes. It is more general. But it tells you an "average" in its base form, and latency averages are not useful for end user applications. However, Little's Law does assume something that is not actually

Re: [Bloat] [Make-wifi-fast] [Starlink] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board

2021-07-09 Thread Luca Muscariello
For those who might be interested in Little's law there is a nice paper by John Little on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the result. https://www.informs.org/Blogs/Operations-Research-Forum/Little-s-Law-as-Viewed-on-its-50th-Anniversary

Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board

2021-07-09 Thread Leonard Kleinrock
David, I totally appreciate your attention to when and when not analytical modeling works. Let me clarify a few things from your note. First, Little's law (also known as Little’s lemma or, as I use in my book, Little’s result) does not assume Poisson arrivals - it is good for any arrival

Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] Abandoning Window-based CC Considered Harmful (was Re: Bechtolschiem)

2021-07-09 Thread Erik Auerswald
Thank you, David! On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 04:14:00PM -0400, David P. Reed wrote: > > Keep It Simple, Stupid. > > That's a classic architectural principle that still applies. Unfortunately > folks who only think hardware want to add features to hardware, but don't > study the actual real