.org/doc/charter-ietf-ccwg/
is a new wg intended to poke into these issues
On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 4:49 PM Stephen Hemminger via Cake
wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 12:47:01 -0700 (PDT)
> David Lang wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2023, David P. Reed via Bloat wrote:
> >
it. QUiC is a HTTP replacement for REST
protocol sementics.
So why discard a good thing that works?
-Original Message-
From: "Stephen Hemminger"
Sent: Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 2:51 pm
To: "David P. Reed via Bloat"
Cc: "David P. Reed via Bloat" , "Cake List&qu
I was recently looking at congestion control algorithms - endpoint-based ones -
that would deal with very low level, very low latency requirements in
datacenters that use high speed switch fabrics. (note: congestion control in
such datacenters is a very, very real issue, especially since some
On time-sync: Every smartphone sold today can have their clocks synced, both in
rate and count value, using GPS that every smartphone has.
So I think the problem of no clock sync is based on the fact that NTP and PTP
are so very, very ancient. And the tooling (iperf and netperf) don't have
4 microseconds!
On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 3:23pm, "David Lang via Cake"
said:
> you have to listen and hear nothing for some timeframe before you transmit,
> that
> listening time is define in the standard. (isn't it??)
>
> David Lang
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2022, Bob McMahon wrote:
>
Bob -
I think it is great that Cisco has been looking at controlling buffer size in datacenters. However, I'm actually quite skeptical of the analysis here.
I think what is going on is that operating system scheduling delays (typical Linux scheduling of ACK packet generation for the TCP stack
What's the difference between uplink and downlink? In DOCSIS the rate
asymmetry was the issue. But in WiFi, the air interface is completely symmetric
(802.11ax, though, maybe not because of centrally polling).
In any CSMA link (WiFi), there is no "up" or "down". There is only sender and
Pretty good list, thanks for putting this together.
The only thing I'd add, and I'm not able to formulate it very elegantly, is
this personal insight: One that I would research, because it can be a LOT more
useful in the end-to-end control loop than stuff like ECN, L4S, RED, ...
Fact:
loading
code, and now the "service worker" javascript code, the idea that it is like
fetching a file using FTP is just wrong. Do NANOG members understand this? I
doubt it.
On Monday, September 20, 2021 5:30pm, "David P. Reed"
said:
I use the example all the
I use the example all the time, but not for interviewing. What's sad is that
the answers seem to be quoting from some set of textbooks or popular
explanations of the Internet that really have got it all wrong, but which many
professionals seem to believe is true.
The same phenomenon appears
-MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay
We must not tolerate intolerance;
however our response must be carefully measured:
too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;
too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
I just want to thank Dick Roy for backing up the arguments I've been making
about physical RF communications for many years, and clarifying terminology
here. I'm not the expert - Dick is an expert with real practical and
theoretical experience - but what I've found over the years is that many
On Monday, July 12, 2021 9:46am, "Livingood, Jason"
said:
> I think latency/delay is becoming seen to be as important certainly, if not a
> more direct proxy for end user QoE. This is all still evolving and I have to
> say is a super interesting & fun thing to work on. :-)
If I could
approaches a Poisson process. So nature often gives us Poisson arrivals.
Best,
Len
On Jul 8, 2021, at 12:38 PM, David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ](
mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote:
I will tell you flat out that the arrival time distribution assumption made by
Little's Lemm
Keep It Simple, Stupid.
That's a classic architectural principle that still applies. Unfortunately
folks who only think hardware want to add features to hardware, but don't study
the actual real world version of the problem.
IMO, and it's based on 50 years of experience in network and
As a data point, I run Cake on a "Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU N2930 @ 1.83GHz"
with 2 cores, and 1 GB/sec cable modem network. My "router board" has two GigE
ports, doesn't have WiFi. It uses Fedora 34 Server as its basis, runs dnsmasq
for the main LAN serving DNS, DHCP, and running a Hurricane
gt; fallout from that in terms of not just addressing queuing delay, but
> > caching, prefetching, and learning more about what a user really needs
> > (as opposed to wants) to know via intelligent agents.
> >
> > [0] If you want to get depressed, read Pirsig's successor t
Well, nice that the folks doing the conference are willing to consider that
quality of user experience has little to do with signalling rate at the
physical layer or throughput of FTP transfers.
But honestly, the fact that they call the problem "network quality" suggests
that they REALLY,
(They closed the issue on the golang link.)
I'm not a golang user. One language too many for me. It sounds like a library
issue.
My suggestion would be to use the openness of open source. Generate a patchset
that extends the interface properly. Don't try to "improve" what you don't like
-
who has been developing systems
for 50+ years now. I'm kind of disappointed, but my opinion does not really
matter much.
David
On Monday, March 29, 2021 9:52pm, "Theodore Ts'o" said:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 04:28:11PM -0400, David P. Reed wrote:
> >
> >
Dave -
I've spent a fair amount of time orbiting the FreeBSD community over the past
few years. It's not as sad as you might think.
However, the networking portion of FreeBSD community is quite differently
organized than it is in Linux.
What tends to shape Linux and FreeBSD, etc. are the
ot.org/story/21/03/04/1722256/senators-call-on-fcc-to-quadruple-base-high-speed-internet-speeds
](
https://news.slashdot.org/story/21/03/04/1722256/senators-call-on-fcc-to-quadruple-base-high-speed-internet-speeds
)
Anybody know these guys?
On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 8:50 AM David P. Reed <[
This is an excellent proposal. I am happy to support it somehow.
I strongly recommend trying to find a way to make sure it doesn't become a
proposal put forward by "progressive" potlitical partisans. (this is hard for
me, because my politics are more aligned with the Left than with the
Hmmm... good post, I guess. But aren't WiFi 6 and StarLink being built by
people who have proved their genius by being billionaires?
It's sad, though, to read through the comments. There's a whole 'nother world
out there now.
Apparently the world of commenters are largely convinced
It has bufferbloat?
Why am I not surprised?
I can share that one stack hasn't had it from the start, by design. That is one
implemented for trading at 10+ GB/sec, implemented in Verilog, and now
apparently in production use at one of the largest NY trading intermediaries.
Why? Simply two
Interop 2019 gave this an award?
I have to say, it reads like a clone of the Bell System Technical Manual (or
some of the LTE spec).
In the tutorial it doesn't seem to say what problem it is solving.
But hey, maybe the IAB loves it? They seem to be clueless as hell about
internetworking as a
ause to bill for it cost more. The UK got the
Internet only because they had to follow the US (rather than billing
outrageously). Europe got it last, because PTT's were essentially government
revenue generators, so the government hated the idea of losing the money.
On Sunday, June 14, 202
On Saturday, June 13, 2020 9:17pm, "David Lang" said:
> > The lockdown has shown that actual low-latency e2e communication matters.
> > The gaming community has known this for awhile.
>
> how has the lockdown shown this? video conferencing is seldom e2e
Well, it's seldom peer-to-peer (and
xpensive phone calls at a time. But coultn't recoup its investment, helping
Motorola as a company fail. Bets are great, but counting on a roulette wheel to
produce 00 and pay out in one spin - yeah, I'd bet rive bucks.
On Friday, June 12, 2020 11:30am, "Michael Richardson" sai
On Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:14pm, "Jonathan Morton"
said:
> > On 11 Jun, 2020, at 7:03 pm, David P. Reed
> wrote:
> >
> > So, what do you think the latency (including bloat in the satellites) will
> be? My guess is > 2000 msec, based on the experience
While the jury is still out for me on the "best" speed test to recommend to my
friends, family, and even enemies, I think the progression has been good.
Originally, I used to recommend the web-embedded Java test called Netalyzer
from ICSI. That did extensive tests, and included tests that are
ts (devices) or multiple
connections sending data?
SERGEY FEDOROV
Director of Engineering
[ sfedo...@netflix.com ]( mailto:sfedo...@netflix.com )
121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032
On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 8:07 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ](
mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )>
bright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032
On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:38 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ](
mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote:
I am still a bit worried about properly defining "latency under load" for a NAT
routed situation. If the test is based on ICMP Ping
k itself and there the CPE is in a reasonable position as a
> reflector on
> the other side of the bottleneck as seen from an internet server, b) the home
> network between CPE and end-host, often with variable rate wifi, here I agree
> reflecting echos at the CPE hides part of the is
SERGEY FEDOROV
Director of Engineering
[ sfedo...@netflix.com ]( mailto:sfedo...@netflix.com )
121 Albright Way | Los Gatos, CA 95032
On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:38 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ](
mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote:
I am still a bit worried about properly defining "
I am still a bit worried about properly defining "latency under load" for a NAT
routed situation. If the test is based on ICMP Ping packets *from the server*,
it will NOT be measuring the full path latency, and if the potential congestion
is in the uplink path from the access provider's
>>> remember the right keywords to look it up at the moment. this feature
>>> lets you program when a packet emerges from the driver and is sort of
>>> a whole new ballgame when it comes to scheduling - there hasn't been
>>> an aqm designed for it, and you can do
Thanks! I ordered one just now. In my experience, this company does rather neat
stuff. Their XMOS based microphone array (ReSpeaker) is really useful. What's
the state of play in Linux/OpenWRT for Intel 9560 capabilities regarding AQM?
On Saturday, April 4, 2020 12:12am, "Aaron Wood" said:
>
Regarding EDF.
I've been pushing folks to move latency sensitive computing in ALL OS's to a
version of EDF since about 1976. This was when I was in grad school working on
distributed computing on LANs. In fact, it is where I got the idea for my Ph.D.
thesis (completed in 1978) which pointed
Congestion control for real-time video is quite different than for streaming.
Streaming really is dealt with by a big enough (multi-second) buffering, and
can in principle work great over TCP (if debloated).
UDP congestion control MUST be end-to-end and done in the application layer,
which is
Thanks, Colin, for the info. Sadly, I learned all about the licensing of
content in the industry back about 20 years ago when I was active in the
battles about Xcasting rights internationally (extending "broadcast rights" to
the Web, which are rights that exist only in the EU, having to do with
Sadly, my home provider, RCN, which is otherwise hugely better than Comcast and
Verizon provisioning wise, still won't provide IPv6 to its customers. It's a
corporate level decision. I know the regional network operations guys, which is
why I know about the provisioning - they have very
This might turn out to be a problem for me - I have a "smart TV" that I watch
Netflix on, and it appears to use IPv4. What specifically triggers Netflix to
reject specific IPv6 clients? Is it the player's IPv6 address? Is all of
he.net's address space blocked?
I've been planning to move more
I should explain that my motivation in writing the previous review is twofold:
1) I think the authors are very capable of doing great and valuable work. And
they have in the past done so.
2) Intellectual honesty, professional honesty, and rigor are values that seem
to have been declining over
I will not be gentle here. THe authors deserve my typical peer-review feedback
as an expert in the field of wireless protocols and congestion. (Many of you on
the list are as well, I know, and may have different reviews. But I'm very
troubled by this paper's claims. It's interesting
Sorry, I can't help - I never spend time or effort on Twitter, Reddit, etc.
because I see no value and lots of problems in doing that.
Musk probably wouldn't love my views on most of his companies, anyway.
I hope he gets something right on this one.
On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 6:45am, "Dave
I have been chatting with a startup in the Multi-User Dwelling networking
operations space, and they seem to really be attracted to Ubiquiti Unifi
systems. I can't blame them for wanting a comprehensive and evolving system.
But on the questions related to bufferbloat and making wifi both low
end to the other).
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 6:57pm, "Jonathan Morton"
said:
> > On 19 May, 2019, at 1:36 am, David P. Reed
> wrote:
> >
> > Pardon, but cwnd should NEVER be larger than the number of forwarding hops
> between source and destination.
>
ago hoped that DSL devices would adopt BQL, and that
> > cablemodems would also, thus moving packet processing a little higher
> > on the stack so more advanced algorithms like cake could take hold.
> >
> > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 9:32 AM Sebastian Moeller
> wrote:
>
g neck
> deep in the big muddy.
> So anyway, here's that song, that has a fascinating history:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnJVkEX8O4
>
> and to me applies to a lot of folk, currently in power. Perhaps the
> times are a changin, too.
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2019
In my personal view, the lack of any evidence that Huawei has any more
government-controlled or classified compartmented Top Secret offensive Cyberwar
exploits than Cisco, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Mellanox, F5, NSO group, etc. is quite
a strong indication that there's no relevant "there" there.
Ideally, it would need to be self-configuring, though... I.e., something
like the IQRouter auto-measuring of the upstream bandwidth to tune the
shaper.
Sure, seems like this is easy to code because there are exactly two ports to
measure, they can even be labeled physically "up" and "down"
ng a sales channel, etc. Just do what is needed to make a few thousand
for the CrowdSupply market.
Thoughts?
-Original Message-----
From: "David P. Reed"
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 2:38pm
To: "Valdis Klētnieks"
Cc: "Rich Brown" , "cerowrt-devel"
Well, of all the devices in my house (maybe 100), only the router attached to
the cable modem (which is a 2x GigE Intel Linux board based on Fedora 29 server
with sch_cake configured) is running fq_codel. And setting that up was a labor
of love. But it works a charm for my asymmetric Gigabit
;.
Just don't trust them. You can buy their stuff and use it because it is pretty
darn functional, but don't put your life entirely in their hands, even if they
have similar facial features to you.
-Original Message-
From: "Jim Gettys"
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 2
ecoming a
third world country)
Humans don't think. They react emotionally, and tribally.
-Original Message-
From: "Dave Taht"
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 2:16pm
To: "David P. Reed"
Cc: "cerowrt-devel" , "bloat"
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel]
The NYTimes has become a mouthpiece for those who want to see China as the new
evil empire. Recent pieces by David Sanger have hyped the idea that the US has
a "5G Gap" and that China (Huawei) will threaten to conquer the world with 5G
superiority, so we should be vigilantly opposing Huawei.
and optional part of the game.
-Original Message-
From: "David P. Reed"
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2019 11:12am
To: "Mikael Abrahamsson"
Cc: "ecn-s...@lists.bufferbloat.net" , "bloat"
Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] can we setup a
This, and the gener
This, and the general question of how to get any change like this into the IP
forwarding components of existing networks, seems to be a very important and
tough question.
IETF seems to be unable to mandate anything, even when there is rough consensus
and working code.
The power has shifted to
5:57pm
To: "Holland, Jake"
Cc: "Mikael Abrahamsson" , "David P. Reed"
, "ecn-s...@lists.bufferbloat.net"
, "bloat"
Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and
experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104
How many applications used by normal users have "admin" privileges? The
Browser? Email? FTP?
-Original Message-
From: "Dave Taht"
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:31pm
To: "Jonathan Foulkes"
Cc: ecn-s...@lists.bufferbloat.net, "bloat"
Subject: Re: [Ecn-sane] [Bloat] [iccrg] Fwd:
loads, which are transient in the real world. Most
"benchmarks" make the strange and unrealistic assumption that overload is
steady state, and that users themselves don't give up and stop using an
overloaded system.
-Original Message-
From: "Jonathan Morton"
Abrahamsson"
Cc: "David P. Reed" , ecn-s...@lists.bufferbloat.net,
"bloat"
Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Ecn-sane] [iccrg] Fwd: [tcpPrague] Implementation and
experimentation of TCP Prague/L4S hackaton at IETF104
> On 15 Mar, 2019, at 8:36 pm, Mikael Abrahamsson wr
The absolute fundamental issue with diffserv, IMO, is that the carriers cannot
agree on an actual specification of what routers and gateways are supposed to
do, while being compatible with the core principle of the IP layer: do not hold
packets if they cause increasing queueing delay. (this is
ferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Cerowrt-devel] closing up my make-wifi-fast lab
On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 1:04 PM David P. Reed wrote:
>
> WiFi is a bit harder than IP. But you know that.
>
> I truly believe that we need to fix the phy/waveform/modulation space to
> really scale up op
Drag is an fluid dynamic term that suggests a meaning close to this... flow
rate dependent friction.
But what you really want to suggest is a flow rate dependent *delay* that
people are familiar with quantifying.
Fq_codel limits the delay as flow rate increases and is fair.
The max buffer
The mystery in most users' minds is that ping at a time when there is no load
does tell them anything at all about why the network connection will such when
their kid is uploading to youtube.
So giving them ping time is meaningless.
I think most network engineers think ping time is a useful
I have a working ping-over-http mobile browser app at alt.reed.com. feel free
to try it and look at the underlying packet stream with wireshark. I did a
prototype of a RRUL test using Web sockets and a modified nginx websocket
module as a server that could be commanded to generate precise
Anybody got a TI connection? The wandboard is nice based on I.MX6 but it is not
ideal for a router.
On Aug 15, 2014, Jonathan Morton chromati...@gmail.com wrote:
one promising project is this one: https://www.turris.cz/en/
That does look promising. The existing software is OpenWRT, so porting
Maybe I am misunderstanding something... it just took my Mac book Pro doing an
rsync to copy a TB of data from a small NAS at work yesterday to get about 700
Gb/sec on a GigE office network for hours yesterday.
I had to do that in our Santana Clara office rather than from home outside
Boston,
I'll answer this way... The endpoints can use information to slow down as early
as possible. That's the whole point of control loop tuning. The fundamental
resonance of a control loop depends on its speed of draining and filling the
storage element.
So you want to sample and deliver ASAP two
Both you and Dave Taft misunderstood my idea about standing queues not being
the right way to encode congestion in switches. I do not say there would be no
buffers for jitter. Nor do I call for admission control. I just suggest that
instead of deriving congestion from backlog measures
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