Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-21 Thread David Lang via Bloat
Mar 2023, rjmcmahon via Bloat wrote: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2023 12:58:17 -0700 From: rjmcmahon via Bloat Reply-To: rjmcmahon To: Frantisek Borsik Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink , dan , bran...@rd.bbc.co.uk, libreqos , Rpm , bloat Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi I

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-21 Thread rjmcmahon via Bloat
I was around when BGP & other critical junctures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_juncture_theory the commercial internet. Here's a short write-up from another thread with some thoughts (Note: there are no queues in the Schramm Model

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-21 Thread Frantisek Borsik via Bloat
I do believe that we all want to get the best - latency and speed, hopefully, in this particular order :-) The problem was that from the very beginning of the Internet (yeah, I was still not here, on this planet, when it all started), everything was optimised for speed, bandwidth and other

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-21 Thread Sebastian Moeller via Bloat
Hi Brandon, > On Mar 21, 2023, at 01:10, Brandon Butterworth via Rpm > wrote: > > On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote: >> I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput numbers >> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-20 Thread Frantisek Borsik via Bloat
Thanks, Dan. So we got here, but how to get out of this craziness. The question is what (if anything) we can actually learn from the very beginning of the Internet. If I remember correctly, there was as part of this discussion here (or in the other thread) on IP vs LoRaWAN. Can we use something

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-20 Thread Frantisek Borsik via Bloat
Late to the party, also not an engineer...but if there's something I have learned during my time with RF elements: --- 99% of the vendors out there (and most of the ISPs, I dare to say, as well) don't know/care/respect thing as "simple", as physics. --- 2.4GHz was lost because of this, and 5GHz

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-20 Thread dan via Bloat
I more or less agree with you Frantisek. There are throughput numbers that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K streams plus browsing and so forth, yet no one talks about latency and packet loss

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread dan via Bloat
On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread Dave Taht via Bloat
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Lang wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm > > wrote: > >> > >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, > >> they > >> have a small number of APs with

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread David Lang via Bloat
On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm wrote: if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, they have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is empty and they walk around and test

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread Dave Taht via Bloat
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33 PM David Lang via Rpm wrote: > > if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference center, > they > have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the place is > empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread rjmcmahon via Bloat
I have sometimes thought that LiFi (https://lifi.co/) would suddenly come out of the woodwork, and we would be networking over that through the household. I think the wishful thinking is "coming from woodwork" vs coming from the current and near future state of engineering. Engineering comes

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread David Lang via Bloat
On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Bruce Perens via Bloat wrote: There is an upper limit on the bandwidth that one user can ever require. It is probably what is needed for full-sphere VR at the perceptual limit. I would disagree with this. This assumes that you are only streaming the data. If you then

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread dan via Bloat
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:53 AM Dave Taht wrote: > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49 AM rjmcmahon via Rpm > wrote: > > > > Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to > > never need to use it. > > Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for >

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread Dave Taht via Bloat
On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 10:49 AM rjmcmahon via Rpm wrote: > > Agreed, AQM is like an emergency brake. Go ahead and keep it but hope to > never need to use it. Tee-hee, flow queuing is like having a 1024 lanes that can be used for everything from pedestrians, to bicycles, to trucks and trains. I

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread rjmcmahon via Bloat
My brother and I installed irrigation systems in Texas where it rains a lot. No problem with getting business. Digging trenches, laying & gluing PVC pipe, installing controller wires, etc is good, respectable work. I wonder if too many white-collar workers avoided blue-collar work and don't

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread Bruce Perens via Bloat
I think the big problem with this is users per domicile. It's easy enough to support one floor of a residence with a single AP. There is an upper limit on the bandwidth that one user can ever require. It is probably what is needed for full-sphere VR at the perceptual limit. We have long achieved

Re: [Bloat] [Rpm] [Starlink] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

2023-03-15 Thread Aaron Wood via Bloat
I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-wide controller module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that network engineers do in dense AP deployments today: adjacent APs run on different frequency bands so that they reduce the likelihood of stepping on each others