Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi Dave, Norbert, On 10/06/2011 15:30, Dave Neary wrote: Hi, [...] First, thank you both for this discussion, I'm jumping here, just for a comment on the online Opal. OpenSTV is GPL, but only available for download for a fee. Really? News to me! It wasn't up until OpenSTV 1.6. I'd be happy to share my copy with anyone who needs it. Ooh: I just saw this on the openstv blog: http://www.openstv.org/node/133 If you have=10 candidates and=1000 voters, you can do the voting online, with hosted OpenSTV. I'm not very happy with this voting hosted elsewhere, with a google account to manage everything. It would be nice to find a way for anyone, or at the very least for Members, to be able to use the raw result and re-calculate the result for themselves... Why not buy one copy of the source code and share it among OOo members who don't want to pay $5 to Jeff? Yes, may be we should discuss all this quite quickly now. It's a good tool with different voting methods implemented (@André: we could even use the schulze method ;) Others, do you have an idea on it? Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On Wed, 2011-06-08 at 07:02 +0300, David Nelson wrote: I remember that, some time ago, Michael Meeks suggested OpenSTV as a tool (http://www.openstv.org/). Right. STV (Meek) is a key part of the election and bylaws since it produces a 'fair' result; it requires ranking the candidates. I strongly suggest we simply copy the GNOME process here; this generates a unique random key per person which is mailed out, and used instead of a name when voting; thus the voting record can be published, and independently analysed while keeping it anonymous (outside of the MC that is). The PHP etc. code for the GNOME voting website is here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/foundation-web/tree/foundation.gnome.org/vote With the (per year) voting template mail, and to generate and mail the tokens the code is here: http://git.gnome.org/browse/foundation-web/tree/bin To analyse the results, OpenSTV is used I think, and the results published: http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/results.php?election_id=14 along with the complete voter record: http://foundation.gnome.org/vote/votes.php?election_id=14 It is possible that Maemo re-used the code and made it more generic; not sure - Dave might know (?). I hope that helps, ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi, Michael Meeks wrote: It is possible that Maemo re-used the code and made it more generic; not sure - Dave might know (?). When I got it, the code had the anonymous token/voter token system for anonymising votes already, but used the old pick N, and we aggregate all the choices to get the result GNOME system. I wanted STV with fractional transfer, so I modified step 2 and 3 to use (not working on IE 6 or 7) Javascript to generate the candidate list on the fly, allow the voter to order them, and then submit the ordered ballot. I also modified the database structure to handle the ordering, and added a page to download all ballots in the OpenSTV .blt file format. I did all that for Maemo, and then GNOME copied the code back :) I don't think any major changes beyond making it fit with stylesheets was done to the code when GNOME reused it. So the balloting code's in use by at least 2 communities at this point. One thing we don't do, which I believe other former Sun projects do, is venerate the results on the fly using OpenSTV. Someone needs to download the ballots, generate the result, and store it. Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish, but currently a gap. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi, Norbert Thiebaud wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 4:07 AM, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com wrote: I strongly suggest we simply copy the GNOME process here; this generates a unique random key per person which is mailed out, and used instead of a name when voting; thus the voting record can be published, and independently analysed while keeping it anonymous (outside of the MC that is). Just to make sure I understand it correctly: it is 'anonymous' but each voter know _his_ anonymous token and therefore can verify that his vote has been recorded accurately, by cross-checking the published details-values right? I can explain the mechanism. Before the election, a unique token is generated for every voter, and stored with their email address. This token is mailed out to the voter. Obviously, since these are stored together, there is no anonymity at this point. When I vote, I use my email address and this token to authenticate. Then I'm brought to a page where I can order the candidates in order of preference. On successfully voting, a unique anonymous token is created, and stored in an anonymous token table. This token is used (along with a preference) to identify which candidates I voted for, and in what order. The temporary token associated with the email address is at this point deleted, leaving no way to connect the email address to the anon token. Then we communicate the anonymous token to the voter, and tell him to write it down somewhere so that he can check his vote later. At the end of the election, this does leave us some standard election type stuff you can do: * we can tell whether someone has voted or not (but not how they voted) by checking the temporary auth tokens still left in the database. * We can publish the ballots, identified by the anon token, so anyone can check the results, and check their own ballot, but not how others voted. and that is the basis of the temper proof mechanism. Yes, basically. There are of course security weak-points here. The first and weakest is the voter's email client: if I gain access to the voter mail, I can vote in the place of someone using their email token. The second is the database itself: if I can get access to the authentication tokens and the electorate, I can vote for anyone at all. In principle, we can address the first with gpg, but not everyone uploads a pgp key. The latter implies trusting the administrators of the system to be honest. There are ways to encrypt the entire chain with private key cryptography, but for us that would have complicated the voting process for a substantial number of people, and been overkill. It is incumbent on each member to make sure that he received his token and that is vote is correctly counted. Yes - we can of course resend tokens, and we announce the tokens have been sent publicly. Until someone votes, we can get resend the temporary token easily. (that his make sure that his email didn't get intercepted somehow, or that the MC did not received a spoofed email). Yes, this is the weak point, as I said. pgp signed proves providence, but doesn't prevent interception. pgp encryption would do the latter, but not the former. I think that pgp/gpg-signing these email would remove some possibility to interfere with the process. You would also need to pgp encrypt the temporary token with the voter's public key to ensure that the election administrator can't vote on behalf of people. OpenSTV is GPL, but only available for download for a fee. Really? News to me! It wasn't up until OpenSTV 1.6. I'd be happy to share my copy with anyone who needs it. Ooh: I just saw this on the openstv blog: http://www.openstv.org/node/133 If you have =10 candidates and =1000 voters, you can do the voting online, with hosted OpenSTV. It would be nice to find a way for anyone, or at the very least for Members, to be able to use the raw result and re-calculate the result for themselves... Why not buy one copy of the source code and share it among OOo members who don't want to pay $5 to Jeff? PS: Not that I am overly concerned about election tempering... but as Funny - I *just* realised that you meant tamper - I honestly thoughht you wanted to temper (ie harden) the process. Sorry - that just amused me - not picking on your grammar or anything. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member dne...@gnome.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote: Hi, Thanks for the explanations... [...] Then we communicate the anonymous token to the voter, and tell him to write it down somewhere so that he can check his vote later. how does one figure out what information is in the token ? iow. given my token, or any token for that matter can I independently verify what voe is encoded in it ? [snip] Funny - I *just* realised that you meant tamper - I honestly thoughht you wanted to temper (ie harden) the process. Sorry - that just amused me - not picking on your grammar or anything. :-D I'm painfully aware of my weak spelling/grammar, even in my native language I do a lot of these :-) It is not helped by my fingers inability to keep up with my thoughts... and my notorious laziness in proof-reading :) Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi, FYI: We asked the Membership Committee to follow-up with some information on membership status and elections soon, so stay tuned. :-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 18:44, Norbert Thiebaud nthieb...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, FYI: We asked the Membership Committee to follow-up with some information on membership status and elections soon, so stay tuned. :-) Practical question: Shouldn't the MC start collecting ssh public-key ? People having commit access to git or login to any infra box already have one available... but some member may not have one already on file and collecting them with some level of chain of trust may not be completely trivial, and more importantly, may induce some significant delay. I suppose the the election won't be conducted in-person, but presumably on-line... some level of temper-proof seems necessary, if for no other reason than to avoid FUD and smear campaign about the legitimacy of our process (there have been enough of that already in the blog of a notorious Big Blue employee) Completely orthogonal to all the OOo and Apache stuff going on... the ASF has an online voting tool that you guys may be interested in. There is both a command line version (for ssh users), and a web-based version (if you guys also have web-based authentication for your Members). That tool may be useful for you guys. It provides for secure and private/secret voting. Just select a few people to do the vote counting, and away you go. It is located in a private repository, but I see no reason that it couldn't be public (simply a historic accident, I believe). If you're interested, I can snap a copy of the command line stuff. For the web-based version, please ask on infrastruct...@apache.org. Cheers, -g -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi, I remember that, some time ago, Michael Meeks suggested OpenSTV as a tool (http://www.openstv.org/). -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] About elections
Hello everyone, given that the Foundation is close to being created, and that we have now nearly 100 approved members (thanks to the membership committee for their great work!), I guess that in the near future we should think about holding elections for the future board of directors. IIRC, all other roles besides the AB, are then voted on by the BoD. Anyone already had a closer look or is working on that yet? I guess we need some nomination phase, and people taking care of and monitoring the poll, and those should be not amongst the candidates. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi :) I think 100 is still quite small compared to the numbers of people actually involved. So the list of members is still more like a special-interest sub-set. The founder members are doing a great job and i hope that they stay in place for a long while yet. Regards from Tom :) - Original Message From: Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 10:19:06 Subject: [steering-discuss] About elections Hello everyone, given that the Foundation is close to being created, and that we have now nearly 100 approved members (thanks to the membership committee for their great work!), I guess that in the near future we should think about holding elections for the future board of directors. IIRC, all other roles besides the AB, are then voted on by the BoD. Anyone already had a closer look or is working on that yet? I guess we need some nomination phase, and people taking care of and monitoring the poll, and those should be not amongst the candidates. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi Tom, Tom Davies wrote on 2011-06-06 11.22: I think 100 is still quite small compared to the numbers of people actually involved. So the list of members is still more like a special-interest sub-set. The founder members are doing a great job and i hope that they stay in place for a long while yet. thanks for the flowers, as we say in Germany. :-) Well, there are two things: The steering committee has to end its existence one year after being set in place, which would be, depending on how that needs to be counted, either end of August, or September 28th. In addition, to set up the Foundation in Germany, we need to provide the names of the legal representatives. As we hope to have the legal paperwork finished soon, we also need those names. So, maybe waiting one or two more weeks is possible, but given that we have been accepting members for a few weeks already, I guess the time that is right will come soon ;) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
- Original Message From: Volker Merschmann merschm...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 11:02:56 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections Hi, 2011/6/6 Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org: Tom Davies wrote on 2011-06-06 11.22: I think 100 is still quite small compared to the numbers of people actually involved. So the list of members is still more like a special-interest sub-set. The founder members are doing a great job and i hope that they stay in place for a long while yet. thanks for the flowers, as we say in Germany. :-) Well, there are two things: The steering committee has to end its existence one year after being set in place, which would be, depending on how that needs to be counted, either end of August, or September 28th. In addition, to set up the Foundation in Germany, we need to provide the names of the legal representatives. As we hope to have the legal paperwork finished soon, we also need those names. So, maybe waiting one or two more weeks is possible, but given that we have been accepting members for a few weeks already, I guess the time that is right will come soon ;) I'd like to add that not every contributor wants to be a member of the foundation. Especially those who are payed for the work might not like to have a too personal connection. We can ask the membership committee if there is a reasonable number of applications left which can be finished in the next days. Else we should go ahead for the reasons given by Florian. Volker Hi :) +1 Companies do reasonably often pay shares to employees. This would be slightly different in that the 'shares' do not give a pay-out but similar in that they give workers a say in the organisation. I think paid workers should be encouraged to become members but obviously it is their choice. Regards from Tom :) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Hi Volker, all, On 06/06/2011 13:02, Volker Merschmann wrote: [...] I'd like to add that not every contributor wants to be a member of the foundation. Especially those who are payed for the work might not like to have a too personal connection. We can ask the membership committee if there is a reasonable number of applications left which can be finished in the next days. Yes there is still several applications, either we have to statute on or that have just arrived since last week. We did had difficulties to meet during May, but we have now a regular meeting on Monday, so that may help to speed the process too. Else we should go ahead for the reasons given by Florian. The time needed to put in place the process to organize the elections would be enough to have the members incorporated by the Committee, so no need to delay, both could run side by side. Also this is often a reproach that the SC members have not been elected, so for me, the sooner the better to have a clear and fair situation. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
- Original Message From: sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 12:10:30 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections Hi Volker, all, On 06/06/2011 13:02, Volker Merschmann wrote: [...] I'd like to add that not every contributor wants to be a member of the foundation. Especially those who are payed for the work might not like to have a too personal connection. We can ask the membership committee if there is a reasonable number of applications left which can be finished in the next days. Yes there is still several applications, either we have to statute on or that have just arrived since last week. We did had difficulties to meet during May, but we have now a regular meeting on Monday, so that may help to speed the process too. Else we should go ahead for the reasons given by Florian. The time needed to put in place the process to organize the elections would be enough to have the members incorporated by the Committee, so no need to delay, both could run side by side. Also this is often a reproach that the SC members have not been elected, so for me, the sooner the better to have a clear and fair situation. Kind regards Sophie Hi :) Agreed. But the founders have shown good strategic planning and good planning for the future as shown by the way things have played out in the last few weeks. I think it would take time for newly elected people to have such commitment to the long-term vision. I have to point out that i am not a founder and not even a regular member. I've had disagreements and arguments with founders but have always had good reason to respect even the ones i disagree with. Regards from Tom :) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 7:25 AM, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: - Original Message From: sophie gautier.sop...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Mon, 6 June, 2011 12:35:04 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] About elections Hi Tom, On 06/06/2011 14:20, Tom Davies wrote: [...] Hi :) Agreed. But the founders have shown good strategic planning and good planning for the future as shown by the way things have played out in the last few weeks. I think it would take time for newly elected people to have such commitment to the long-term vision. Thanks for the flowers as we also say in French :) I have to point out that i am not a founder and not even a regular member. I've had disagreements and arguments with founders but have always had good reason to respect even the ones i disagree with. Even if no more a member of the SC, I will still consider me as a founder. But it's not what is important to my eyes. The importance for me reside in the fact that even if I'm not a SC member, I'll still have a say because I'm a member of the Foundation, and though can express my feeling and my wills for the present or the future of the foundation and it's community. And I'm sure that the new formed SC will take them into account, we're not new and have always shared our knowledge and experience. Kind regards Sophie Hi :) True. Weirdly i hadn't thought of that point lol :) I think the important issue to vote on is the Apache issue. Vote on what exactly ? I was wondering if it might be possible to collaborate with them to put a wiki-page together on the TDF wiki so that the different lists can vote I don't think we have a say and even less a vote on what Apache Foundation is going to do. First we have to see what they decide and if they are indeed going forward with their plan to fork, (granted there is not much suspense there) Then we have to see _how_ they're going to do it Then we have to see _when_/_if_ the poddle graduate Then we have to see _what_ they end-up doing. Until then it is pretty much vaporware and there is not much to do, even less to vote about. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 09:41 -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote: Until then it is pretty much vaporware and there is not much to do, even less to vote about. 100% agreed. I'm eager to vote in support of / on our SC - since it seems some criticise them for being un-elected :-) Nice to knock down all the objections one by one of course. ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
Le Mon, 06 Jun 2011 16:52:17 +0100, Michael Meeks michael.me...@novell.com a écrit : On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 09:41 -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote: Until then it is pretty much vaporware and there is not much to do, even less to vote about. 100% agreed. I'm eager to vote in support of / on our SC - since it seems some criticise them for being un-elected :-) Nice to knock down all the objections one by one of course. ATB, Michael. +1 -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] About elections
On 6/6/11 8:07 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Michael Meeksmichael.me...@novell.com a écrit : 100% agreed. I'm eager to vote in support of / on our SC - since it seems some criticise them for being un-elected :-) Nice to knock down all the objections one by one of course. +1 +1 -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation phone +39.348.5653829 - VoIP +39.02.320621813 email it...@libreoffice.it - skype italovignoli gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
