[board-discuss] an Online move ...
Interesting move. Makes a lot of sense considering the challenges with the configuration/differences of opinion WRT to TDF strategy. Personally; I still think this move doesn't address the fundamental issue around sustainability of the project/product in the hands of non-enterprise individual consumers, for Collabora or the TDF. Knowing that TDF is structured in a way that makes it difficult to spend donations, and there is upwards of a million euros being held because they can't spend it is an indicator that some changes are needed to streamline approvals, etc. I don't really see a need to donate to the TDF if the money can't be spent on improving the software in short order. However, my understanding was that setting up the Luxembourgh commercial entity was to allow for app sales and other commercial actions that would primarily be based on Collabora's work on mobile and online. So I don't understand what the primary drive for the entity is anymore (I'm sure there are other good reasons but I thought that was the main one.) I still would strongly suggest/urge setting up some sort of co-op annual membership fee (doesn't have to require for the use of the software, it could just be for voting for a consumer representative on the board), or for Collabora or TDF to offer some sort of individual SaaS support subscription service for Libreoffice. I think that's the model that will work for LibreOffice in this market. Just my opinion based on my assessment of the software market; I'm also an armchair expert - I have no skin in this game as others like Michael/TDF do. Cheers, Kevin
Re: [board-discuss] an Online move ...
Dear Michael, thanks for the move to Colabora Online. It's very hard to guarantee sustainable development for the Collabora employees and as General Manager of Collabora Productivity it's your job to take care of the staff. I wish you all the best, cause only if the LibO dev's has a bright future, the project will have it too. In addition I don't think that much will change between LibreOffice and Collabora, cause as long as Collabora will find funding work will be done for LibO. As Collabora Online will be OSS I hope you make it as easy as possible for contributors. At the end, the situation can only improve, cause in the past LOOL was developed mostly by Collabora and no community outside could be built. Coming closer to Nextcloud (github) can also improve the situation. As a LibreOffice contributor I'm happy to close the private use discussion. But I hope that TDF will find some sustainable ideas and concepts, cause the private use discussion show very well, what didn't work. Free use for everybody and nobody (private, governments, companies) has to pay dev's. Best wishes Andreas_K Am Do., 1. Okt. 2020 um 12:12 Uhr schrieb Michael Meeks < michael.me...@collabora.com>: > Hi there, > > This is a detailed mail, so it shows up as a TLDR; then a > status quo / resolution / benefits triplet, and a link to our FAQ. > We're excited about this as a way to decisively unwind a number of > inter-related problems at TDF. We'll keep an up-to-date version of > this in the FAQ. > > * TLDR; > > Collabora announces that it will move its work on Online from > TDF to GitHub https://collaboraonline.github.io/, in order to ensure > future investment in the software development of Collabora Online and > LibreOffice. This will allow us to deliver on many of the requests > from the community and we expect that this will resolve the lengthy > discussions in the TDF Board around a fair strategy for "LibreOffice > online", thus freeing energy for other constructive topics. > > > * status quo / resolution / benefits: > > ** status quo: background & issues > > + the current status of "Online" at TDF is dis-satisfying to > end-users, some community members, Collabora, and it creates > strain in the LibreOffice project. > > + Online has been substantially created, sustained and > continues to be developed by Collabora investment: > > + Collabora's 20+ committers provided 95%+ of the > commits in the last year > > + LibreOffice Online has been a source-only project: a place > to collaborate around development, with own-branded products > versions derived from that. Publicly available products have > encouraged people to buy support when under heavy use. > > + some TDF community, board and staff members have made it > clear they don't accept this compromise, and want TDF to use > the LibreOffice brand to distribute a competing gratis product > in the marketplace driving the price to zero, (perhaps combined > with nags for donations to TDF). Others wish to ship gratis > LibreOffice branded builds not immediately but in 3-6 months. > > + still others dislike the idea of telling users that it is > essential that they contribute to the project, in proportion > to their ability. Others have concerns about even gentle moral > suasion here eg. around tags & naming; others around donation > requests. Still others recommend proprietary software, or sale > of extensions as a solution. Some claim the TDF statues > require one course of action, others that they do not. > > + this combination of uncertain direction, structure and > statutes at TDF make it difficult for an investor today to > have any confidence in a future return over the years in > which that takes when the Online project is hosted by TDF. > > + TDF has historically avoided explaining clearly how > LibreOffice is created even to its own community. It does not > give effective credit to the commercial community members > doing most of the indispensable work in any way > that can drive a proportionate return. There is little > confidence in this improving. > > + The prospect of the Collabora brand having to compete > against something we ~95% build ourselves. ie. with products > sold or distributed gratis under the popular "LibreOffice" > brand - while Collabora continues to sustain, maintain, and > improve the software in an effectively invisible way is deeply > problematic. > > + imagine trying to explain to larger users why they > should not use LibreOffice Online, but pay for > Collabora Online. Absent significant help from TDF > that is incredibly hard to do
[board-discuss] an Online move ...
Hi there, This is a detailed mail, so it shows up as a TLDR; then a status quo / resolution / benefits triplet, and a link to our FAQ. We're excited about this as a way to decisively unwind a number of inter-related problems at TDF. We'll keep an up-to-date version of this in the FAQ. * TLDR; Collabora announces that it will move its work on Online from TDF to GitHub https://collaboraonline.github.io/, in order to ensure future investment in the software development of Collabora Online and LibreOffice. This will allow us to deliver on many of the requests from the community and we expect that this will resolve the lengthy discussions in the TDF Board around a fair strategy for "LibreOffice online", thus freeing energy for other constructive topics. * status quo / resolution / benefits: ** status quo: background & issues + the current status of "Online" at TDF is dis-satisfying to end-users, some community members, Collabora, and it creates strain in the LibreOffice project. + Online has been substantially created, sustained and continues to be developed by Collabora investment: + Collabora's 20+ committers provided 95%+ of the commits in the last year + LibreOffice Online has been a source-only project: a place to collaborate around development, with own-branded products versions derived from that. Publicly available products have encouraged people to buy support when under heavy use. + some TDF community, board and staff members have made it clear they don't accept this compromise, and want TDF to use the LibreOffice brand to distribute a competing gratis product in the marketplace driving the price to zero, (perhaps combined with nags for donations to TDF). Others wish to ship gratis LibreOffice branded builds not immediately but in 3-6 months. + still others dislike the idea of telling users that it is essential that they contribute to the project, in proportion to their ability. Others have concerns about even gentle moral suasion here eg. around tags & naming; others around donation requests. Still others recommend proprietary software, or sale of extensions as a solution. Some claim the TDF statues require one course of action, others that they do not. + this combination of uncertain direction, structure and statutes at TDF make it difficult for an investor today to have any confidence in a future return over the years in which that takes when the Online project is hosted by TDF. + TDF has historically avoided explaining clearly how LibreOffice is created even to its own community. It does not give effective credit to the commercial community members doing most of the indispensable work in any way that can drive a proportionate return. There is little confidence in this improving. + The prospect of the Collabora brand having to compete against something we ~95% build ourselves. ie. with products sold or distributed gratis under the popular "LibreOffice" brand - while Collabora continues to sustain, maintain, and improve the software in an effectively invisible way is deeply problematic. + imagine trying to explain to larger users why they should not use LibreOffice Online, but pay for Collabora Online. Absent significant help from TDF that is incredibly hard to do in a way that doesn't damage LibreOffice as a whole. + For TDF to provide significant support fairly, in a way that rewards investment, is incredibly challenging to achieve inside TDF's structures. + There are lots of good people on all sides of this argument who come from different perspectives. Many of them are unhappy; we seem stuck in a worst of all worlds position currently. + There is an ironic tension here between wanting everything to be gratis, and wanting investment. Ultimately by making everything gratis, while not encouraging users to contribute financially, and having no credible plan to reward investment - TDF harms its own FOSS mission, which aligns well with Collabora's: to produce great FLOSS software for everyone. * TLDR; resolution: a move. + To sustain Online and to improve it requires substantial and ongoing investment and focus, far beyond what TDF can provide via nags & donations. Any returns require a stable environment. + We believe the most elegant way to resolve the strain and uncertainty is to move our existing sub-project & work around Online to a new project at Collabora.
