Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Medievalbk]

 
In a message dated 3/16/2006 8:46:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Instead, a tree of patron  client relations would be dominated by 
"explosions".  
Fertile patrons  will have lots of clients.  Most of these client lines will 
die out  relatively soon, but some will have their own large  families.



Dr. Brin left out entirely one aspect of the clan tree analogy: pruning.  
Patrons who
sue to have a race removed from the clan after they have served their  
100,000 years
of indenture.
 
Though not yet cannon, so far I have two examples.
 
The Jehmopinni—an overtly large race of  sapient beings, as large as a blue 
whale. From a low gravity, high pressure,  high O2 planet. Too damn large to do 
anything but get in the way, and they  cost too much to accommodate as 
equals. After abandonment, they now have to sign  an acceptance of 
discrimination 
form if they leave their  homeworld.
 
The  Ahp'Churzz. Kangaroo like with the hairy tale segmented like a 
scorpion's tale.  On the end of it is an extra opening for gasses only. Living 
in 
swamps, they  developed a silent release for above the water line. Or as a 
vocal 
warning.. For  100,000 years their patron put up with this 'involuntary' 
stench. 
Recently,  Earthclan discovered the secret to the Ahp'Churzz. It isn't 
involuntary. It's  how they laugh, and they also like the Three Stooges. The 
Ahp'Churzz are easy to  remember. For they have a tail, full of sound, and 
furry, 
signifing  n'yukking.
 
Vilyehm
 
 
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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Trent Shipley]

David Brin has many virtues, but he is hardly obsessive about editing for 
continuity.  Contacting Aliens has a huge number of discrepancies.  The 
discrepancies are internal, it contradicts itself, it contradicts things 
written by Brin, it contradicted all sorts of stuff from Gurps Uplift, 1st 
edition, and (though the Encyclopedia is not canonical) it contradicted the 
Encyclopedia when the Encyclopedia could have been accommodated.

As a systematizer I choose to think of CA this way.  It was written as a very 
introductory training manual for all manner of Terragens who might work with 
aliens.  One has to presume that anything distributed so widely would get 
into the hands of non-friendly agents; therefore, CA contained many 
intentional gaffes as a form of disinformation meant to lull any alien who 
might study Contacting Aliens into a false sense of security.

On Thursday 2006-03-16 13:02, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Jim Sharkey wrote:
> > That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered!  However, as
> > they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take
> > human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience.  The
> > extrapolation of "generations" makes some logical sense, but the
> > core idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic
> > history may be flawed.
>
> Ok, but at least it gives some "magnitudes" about what we
> are talking about. And we hit the 150 My ago critical date,
> when something nasty happened :-)

I have no problem with the mean O-2 race living in main sequence civilization 
about 1My.  That's a long time.  Why don't most races hit the post-Hollarith 
[sp?] singularity and retire much earlier?  Maybe they do.  Some outliers 
seem to hang around the edge of main sequence civilization for tens or even 
the low hundreds of megayears.  If the mean life span is 1My a lot of races 
need to pass on fast if they are to offset an elder race that is 200My old 
and not Retired yet.

It also means that disproportionately long-lived races will tend to be more 
wealthy and powerful.

> > Also, from strictly a "this is an awe-filled universe" point of view,
> >  I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still
> > being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a-
> > billion years.  It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I
> > know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope.

> Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is
> _too many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client,
> and this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This
> does not make much sense.

Billions of years is PLENTY of time to build up quite a pantheon of heroic 
elders.

> > I imagine
> > that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here
> > are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid-
> > level patrons because they've got two client races.

** Uplift and number of clients.

> > >Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception,
> > >not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise
> > >there would be too many races with _no_ Clients!
> > 
> > I can't really agree with that.  The implication in all the books is
> > clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of beings.
> > Plenty of pre-sapients for all.  And of course, clearly most of the 
> > important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently.
> 
No. I'm with Alberto here.  The clear implication is that suitable presapients 
or ur-species are in very short supply.  The main sequence sapients are O-2, 
H-2, and machine and of these the biological sapients (at least) are very 
careful ecologically.  The books actually imply tens or even hundreds of 
thousands of O-2 races with (at least) trillions of individuals.  But the 
Institutes are bound to keep O-2 civilization in environmental equilibrium.  
One will want millions or billions of individuals in an median race.  This 
implies a relatively fixed number of races (not taking into account loss of 
galaxies) with a VERY slow rate of growth.  

Thus, the average mature race will patron just over 1 client.  After a major 
space-time quake the institutes may make clients particularly scarce as they 
try to reduce the race count so that races will tend to some optimal species 
population.

> Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the
> whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important!
> 
> Most of the clans would have just one huge line of Patron-Client.

I don't think most races will be part of long, thin chains.

These chains will occur, but will be more rare than one might expect.

Instead, a tree of patron client relations would be dominated by "explosions".  
Fertile patrons will have lots of clients.  Most of these client lines will 
die out relatively soon, but some will have their own large families.

RE: Fwd: [lbstakoma] sci-fi magazines

[PAT MATHEWS]

www.freecycle.org if one exists where you are.




From: "J.D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion 
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Fwd: [lbstakoma] sci-fi magazines
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:00:20 -0800 (PST)

Hi Everyone,

I haven't been around in a while, but someone in my
neighborhood just passed along the following notice,
and I figured that someone here might be interested.
Contact Neda for more information

JDG

--- Neda Juraydini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:46:09 -0500
> From: Neda Juraydini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [lbstakoma] sci-fi magazines
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> My husband has stacks of the magazines "Asimov,"
> "Analog" and "Fantasy &
> Science Fiction. Dating back to '96 or '95, and
> maybe older.  He's
> having a hard time parting with them but is willing
> to do so if he can
> find a new home for them. Any ideas??
>
>
> Neda
>
> 905 Jackson
>
>



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Re: Hello (hello, hello)

[Ronn!Blankenship]

At 07:36 PM Wednesday 3/15/2006, Robert Seeberger wrote:

Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
> At 10:33 AM Wednesday 3/15/2006, Dave Land wrote:
>> This thing ends here:
>>
>> There's a spark of magic in your eyes
>> Candyland appears each time you smile
>> Never thought that fairy tales came true
>> But they come true when I'm near you
>> You're a genie in disguise
>> Full of wonder and surprise
>>
>> And betcha by golly, wow
>> You're the one that I've been waiting for forever
>> And ever will my love for you keep growin' strong
>> Keep growin' strong
>>
>> If I could I'd catch a falling star
>> To shine on you so I'll know where you are
>> Order rainbows in your favorite shade
>> To show I love you, thinking of you
>> Write your name across the sky
>> Anything you ask I'll try
>>
>> 'Cause betcha by golly, wow
>> You're the one that I've been waiting for forever
>> And ever will my love for you keep growin' strong
>> Keep growin' strong
>>
>> [break]
>>
>> Betcha by golly, wow
>> You're the one that I've been waiting for forever
>> And ever will my love for you keep growin' strong
>> Keep growin' strong
>>
>> Betcha by golly, wow
>> You're the one that I've been waiting for forever
>> And ever will my love for you keep growin' strong
>> Keep growin' strong
>> Betcha by golly, wow
>
>
>
> I'm Henry the eighth I am,
> Henry the eighth I am I am,
> I got married to the widow next door,
> She's been married seven times before,
> And every one was a Henry (Henry),
> She wouldn't have a Willie or a Sam (no sam)
> I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry,
> Henry the eighth I am
>
> Second verse, same as the first
> I'm Henry the eighth I am,
> Henry the eighth I am I am,
> I got married to the widow next door,
> She's been married seven times before,
> And every one was a Henry (Henry),
> She wouldn't have a Willie or a Sam (no sam)
> I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry,
> Henry the eighth I am
>
> (guitar solo)
>
> I'm Henry the eighth I am,
> Henry the eighth I am I am,
> I got married to the widow next door,
> She's been married seven times before,
> And every one was a Henry (Henry),
> She wouldn't have a Willie or a Sam (no sam)
> I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry,
> Henry the eighth I am
>
> (shouts)
>
> H-E-N-R-Y
> Henry (Henry), Henry (Henry)
> Henry the eighth I am I am,
> Henry the eighth I am
>
>
> --Henry . . . um . . . Ronn!  :)

Ronn! is actually quite good at this!



Thank you . . . I think.  It took awhile for me to figure out exactly 
what was going on (not the first time that has happened 
here).  Unfortunately, it is like many things I am supposedly "quite 
good" at:  no one seems to want to offer me paid employment doing it.


And what happened?  Did everybody else get bored and give up?


--Ronn!  :)

"Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country 
and two words have been added to the pledge of Allegiance... UNDER 
GOD.  Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that 
would be eliminated from schools too?"

   -- Red Skelton

(Someone asked me to change my .sig quote back, so I did.)




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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jim Sharkey wrote:
>
 I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror
>>>
>>>Yes, but that has to have some rewards?  You know, pillaging
>>>peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing,
>>>right?
>>
>> Yes :-)
>
> Sweet!  Where can a sapient sign up for this duty?
>
You have to memorize every chapter and versicle of the Holy Canon,
and you must be able to correctly and instantly answer any question
pertaining to your Legion.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[dcaa]

Well, *some* data, that's true, but it's hardly IMHO what I would term as 
"reliable." In my example, FREX, can we reliably identify who the Sea Peoples 
are, or have a discussion on Daily Life of Sumeria? Just IMHO, a listing of 
kings and who they conquered this season does not constitute reliable records...

And AFAIK there were no writing civilizations prior to 3000bc...

Damon

Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h)
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld.

Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld.

-Original Message-
From: "Alberto Monteiro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:05:51 
To:Killer Bs Discussion 
Subject: Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

Damon Agretto wrote:
>
> Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records 
> from 6000 or even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in 
> general, and the latter has huge gaps, depending on what you're 
> studying (who, exactly, were the Sea Peoples?)
> 
But we have some data from 6,000 years ago, like those tables
from Sumeria, and the stuff in the pyramids from some time before
3,000 years ago.

> We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages 
> in Europe, slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there 
> wil be gaps, depending on which Chinese emperor goes on a book-
> burning binge).
> 
> So yeah, 3000 is still an "Age of Myth" especially when you consider 
> the Trojan War occurred during this period...
> 
Ok, but there's no sharp transition from Myth to History.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Jim Sharkey]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>Jim Sharkey wrote:
>> Also, from strictly a "this is an awe-filled universe" point of 
>>view, I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith 
>>still being out there and having a legacy that stretches over half-
>>a- billion years.  It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while 
>>I know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic 
>>scope.
>Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is _too 
>many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client, and 
>this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. 
>This does not make much sense.

I agree.  It was never my intention to suggest that CA is correct, 
just that some of the ideas therein appeal to me more than some of 
what's considered more canonical.  I like the scope and mystery 
inherent in it.

>>I imagine that's just another reason why some Galactics hate 
>>Earthclan; here are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become 
>treated like mid-level patrons because they've got two client races.
>Yes - Earthclan got prestige without power.

Sort of like George Hamilton and Paris HIlton being famous for being 
famous.  :)

>>> I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror
>>Yes, but that has to have some rewards?  You know, pillaging 
>>peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, 
>>right?
>Yes :-)

Sweet!  Where can a sapient sign up for this duty?

Jim

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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Medievalbk]

 
In a message dated 3/16/2006 1:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Maybe  it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is
_too many_ ancient  races. Worse: these races have just one client,
and this client was  uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This
does not make much  sense.



Ask a whale.
 
Vilyehm
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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

Damon Agretto wrote:
>
> Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records 
> from 6000 or even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in 
> general, and the latter has huge gaps, depending on what you're 
> studying (who, exactly, were the Sea Peoples?)
> 
But we have some data from 6,000 years ago, like those tables
from Sumeria, and the stuff in the pyramids from some time before
3,000 years ago.

> We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages 
> in Europe, slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there 
> wil be gaps, depending on which Chinese emperor goes on a book-
> burning binge).
> 
> So yeah, 3000 is still an "Age of Myth" especially when you consider 
> the Trojan War occurred during this period...
> 
Ok, but there's no sharp transition from Myth to History.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jim Sharkey wrote:
>
> That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered!  However, as
> they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take 
> human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience.  The
> extrapolation of "generations" makes some logical sense, but the 
> core idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic 
> history may be flawed.
> 
Ok, but at least it gives some "magnitudes" about what we
are talking about. And we hit the 150 My ago critical date,
when something nasty happened :-)

> Also, from strictly a "this is an awe-filled universe" point of view,
>  I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still 
> being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a-
> billion years.  It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I 
> know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope.
> 
Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is
_too many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client,
and this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This
does not make much sense.

> I imagine 
> that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here 
> are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid-
> level patrons because they've got two client races.
> 
Yes - Earthclan got prestige without power.

>> I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-)
> 
> Yes, but that has to have some rewards?  You know, pillaging 
> peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right?
> 
Yes :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

David Brin wrote:
>
> Terrific discussion.  Oh, if only I had spare time...
>
Stop blogging 

Alberto Monteiro

PS: ok, I will remove the "Brin:" for this discussion...

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Jim Sharkey]

David Brin wrote:
>Terrific discussion.  Oh, if only I had spare time...

Bah, spare time is overrated.  Come play hooky with us for a half 
hour; I mean, we're actually talking about your books for once!  :-) 
Unless of course you're afraid of what the Brin list actually talking 
Brin might do to the space-time continuum...

Hopefully that hole will wait long enough for my Amazon gift voucher 
and I to purchase The Life Eaters, which I never seem to see on any 
of the shelves at my FNCS.  Forgiveness I see a lot, but not TLE.

By the by, that comic strip linked on your site was funny as heck.

Jim

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[dcaa]

Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records from 6000 or 
even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in general, and the latter 
has huge gaps, depending on what you're studying (who, exactly, were the Sea 
Peoples?)

We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages in Europe, 
slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there wil be gaps, depending 
on which Chinese emperor goes on a book-burning binge).

So yeah, 3000 is still an "Age of Myth" especially when you consider the Trojan 
War occurred during this period...

Damon.

Damon Agretto
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h)
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld.

Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld.

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Jim Sharkey]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>If you replace "race" by "person" and "galactic society" by
>"human society", you will see that 3,000 "generations" would take us 
>back to 100,000 years ago - and that 95% of this time is lost in 
>myth, speculation and (rare) scientific studies.  The same goes for 
>Galactic Society. Ancient times are lost in myth, with only a few 
>races trying to study them scietifically.  Taking the analogy again, 
>we have realiable written records of events for 6,000 or 3,000 years 
>ago. This would "extrapolate" to 200 My to 100 My ago, the canonical 
>[Heaven's Reach] time when the Library has decent data.

That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered!  However, as
they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take 
human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience.  The
extrapolation of "generations" makes some logical sense, but the core 
idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic 
history may be flawed.

Also, from strictly a "this is an awe-filled universe" point of view, 
I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still
being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a-billion
years.  It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I know the 
Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope.

>> So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by >> 10?  :-)
>It's not that simple :-)

It never is, is it?  :-)  I was exaggerating for the sake of 
simplicity, but it is jarring that some patrons wait 1MY or more for 
clients, while others that were Uplifted only 250,000 years ago have 
clients already nearing the end of their own indenture.

>Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the
>whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important!

That would be an interesting avenue to explore.  Which came first, 
the prestige and power or the clients?  Do the Soro have...what, four
clients I think, because they're a powerful clan, or have they become
a pwoerful clan because they've been aggressively involved in Uplift?

I have to figure it's a mixture of both, as you said.  Get one high-
quality Galactic citizen as a client, it increases your prestige and
increases your chances of getting another and so on.  I imagine that's
just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here are these
obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid-level patrons
because they've got two client races.

>I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-)

Yes, but that has to have some rewards?  You know, pillaging peasants,
impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right?

Jim

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[David Brin]

PS... drop by http://www.davidbrin.com/  for the
announcement at top of several new "amazon shorts"
including one about the coming "singularity" that some
of you may find interesting.

Be sure to remember those 5 star reviews!  ;-)

Hoping you are all thriving.  Every now and then do
drop in at http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/

db
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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[David Brin]

Terrific discussion.  Oh, if only I had spare time...
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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jim Sharkey wrote:
>
>> The reason was that the book was _initially_ made with a much longer 
>> lifespan for each race [with races living for hundreds of millions, 
>> or even thousands of millions of years]
> 
> See, that makes a little more sense to me, in that it grants a lot 
> more stability to the Four Galaxies.  Races coming and going at a 
> rate of 1M per seems like obscenely fast turnover for a 3 billion
> year-old society.
> 
If you replace "race" by "person" and "galactic society" by
"human society", you will see that 3,000 "generations" would
take us back to 100,000 years ago - and that 95% of this time
is lost in myth, speculation and (rare) scientific studies.

The same goes for Galactic Society. Ancient times are lost in
myth, with only a few races trying to study them scietifically.

Taking the analogy again, we have realiable written records of
events for 6,000 or 3,000 years ago. This would "extrapolate"
to 200 My to 100 My ago, the canonical [Heaven's Reach] time
when the Library has decent data.

>> Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races "live" 
>> about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order.  Races that 
>> live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should be the exception, 
>> not the rule.
> 
> So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by 
> 10?  :-)
> 
It's not that simple :-)

>> Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception,
>> not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise
>> there would be too many races with _no_ Clients!
> 
> I can't really agree with that.  The implication in all the books is
> clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of 
> beings. Plenty of pre-sapients for all.  And of course, clearly most 
> of the important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently.
> 
Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the
whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important!

Most of the clans would have just one huge line of Patron-Client.

>> Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror
> 
> Ooh, what's it like having your very own Legions?  You *have* been 
> following the "What not to do when you're an Evil Overlord" 
> guidelines, right?  ;-)
> 
But I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Jim Sharkey]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:
>The reason was that the book was _initially_ made with a much longer 
>lifespan for each race [with races living for hundreds of millions, 
>or even thousands of millions of years]

See, that makes a little more sense to me, in that it grants a lot 
more stability to the Four Galaxies.  Races coming and going at a 
rate of 1M per seems like obscenely fast turnover for a 3 billion
year-old society.

>Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races "live" 
>about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order.  Races that 
>live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should be the exception, 
>not the rule.

So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by 
10?  :-)

>Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception,
>not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise
>there would be too many races with _no_ Clients!

I can't really agree with that.  The implication in all the books is
clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of beings.
Plenty of pre-sapients for all.  And of course, clearly most of the 
important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently.

>The "refitting" of CA to the new timeline was not complete, so we 
>have some "paradoxes" :-)

I dunno, I liked my idea better.  Maybe it's from a youth misspent 
hoping to gain an all-important Marvel "No-Prize" for explaining
such paradoxes, but I though it sounded good!  :-)


>Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror

Ooh, what's it like having your very own Legions?  You *have* been 
following the "What not to do when you're an Evil Overlord" 
guidelines, right?  ;-)

Jim
Yummy, delicious nits Maru

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"The final word is Hooray!"

[Nick Arnett]

>From FAIR... a collection of quotes about the war in Iraq.  Incredible how
the tables have turned...  "We're going to win... we're winning... we
won..."  None of it was real


*"The Final Word Is Hooray!"*
Remembering the Iraq War's Pollyanna pundits

3/15/06

Weeks after the invasion of Iraq began, Fox News Channel host Brit Hume
delivered a scathing speech critiquing the media's supposedly pessimistic
assessment of the Iraq War.

"The majority of the American media who were in a position to comment upon
the progress of the war in the early going, and even after that, got it
wrong," Hume complained in the April 2003 speech (Richmond Times Dispatch,
4/25/04). "They didn't get it just a little wrong. They got it completely
wrong."

Hume was perhaps correct--but almost entirely in the opposite sense. Days or
weeks into the war, commentators and reporters made premature declarations
of victory, offered predictions about lasting political effects and called
on the critics of the war to apologize. Three years later, the Iraq War
grinds on at the cost of at least tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of
billions of dollars.

Around the same time as Hume's speech, syndicated columnist Cal Thomas
declared (4/16/03): "All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be
saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be
reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an
opportunity to recant and repent. Otherwise, they will return to us in
another situation where their expertise will be acknowledged, or taken for
granted, but their credibility will be lacking."

Gathered here are some of the most notable media comments from the early
days of the Iraq War.


*Declaring Victory*

"Iraq Is All but Won; Now What?"
(Los Angeles Times headline, 4/10/03)


"Now that the combat phase of the war in Iraq is officially over, what
begins is a debate throughout the entire U.S. government over America's
unrivaled power and how best to use it."
(CBS reporter Joie Chen, 5/4/03)


"Congress returns to Washington this week to a world very different from the
one members left two weeks ago. The war in Iraq is essentially over and
domestic issues are regaining attention."
(NPR's Bob Edwards, 4/28/03)


"Tommy Franks and the coalition forces have demonstrated the old axiom that
boldness on the battlefield produces swift and relatively bloodless victory.
The three-week swing through Iraq has utterly shattered skeptics'
complaints."
(Fox News Channel's Tony Snow, 4/27/03)


"The only people who think this wasn't a victory are Upper Westside
liberals, and a few people here in Washington."
(Charles Krauthammer, Inside Washington, WUSA-TV, 4/19/03)


"We had controversial wars that divided the country. This war united the
country and brought the military back."
(Newsweek's Howard Fineman--MSNBC, 5/7/03)


"We're all neo-cons now."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 4/9/03)


"The war was the hard part. The hard part was putting together a coalition,
getting 300,000 troops over there and all their equipment and winning. And
it gets easier. I mean, setting up a democracy is hard, but it is not as
hard as winning a war."
(Fox News Channel's Fred Barnes, 4/10/03)


"Oh, it was breathtaking. I mean I was almost starting to think that we had
become inured to everything that we'd seen of this war over the past three
weeks; all this sort of saturation. And finally, when we saw that it was
such a just true, genuine expression. It was reminiscent, I think, of the
fall of the Berlin Wall. And just sort of that pure emotional expression,
not choreographed, not stage-managed, the way so many things these days seem
to be. Really breathtaking."
(Washington Post reporter Ceci Connolly, appearing on Fox News Channel on
4/9/03, discussing the pulling down of a Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad,
an event later revealed to have been a U.S. military PSYOPS operation
[stunt]--Los Angeles Times, 7/3/04)


*Mission Accomplished?*

"The war winds down, politics heats up Picture perfect. Part Spider-Man,
part Tom Cruise, part Ronald Reagan. The president seizes the moment on an
aircraft carrier in the Pacific."
(PBS's Gwen Ifill, 5/2/03, on George W. Bush's "Mission Accomplished"
speech)


"We're proud of our president. Americans love having a guy as president, a
guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy
like Clinton or even like Dukakis or Mondale, all those guys, McGovern. They
want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out.
The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president.
It's simple. We're not like the Brits."
(MSNBC's Chris Matthews, 5/1/03)


"He looked like an alternatively commander in chief, rock star, movie star,
and one of the guys."
(CNN's Lou Dobbs, on Bush's 'Mission Accomplished' speech, 5/1/03)


*Neutralizing the Opposition *

"Why don't the damn Democrats give the president his day? He won today. He
did well today."
(MSNBC's Chris

Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Alberto Monteiro]

Jim Sharkey wrote:
>
> After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at _Contacting
> Aliens_.  And while it was fun to read again and check out the pics, 
> etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a "how to" book for 
> Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, I noticed a substantial 
> number of what *appear* to be major editing errors in terms of what 
> happened when and to whom.
> 
Yes, this was a problem. The reason was that the book was _initially_
made with a much longer lifespan for each race [with races living
for hundreds of millions, or even thousands of millions of years],
but this would somehow impact on events of c.150 M years ago
[if you have read Heaven's Reach you know which :-)], for with
races so old those events would not be obscured.

Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races
"live" about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order.
Races that live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should
be the exception, not the rule.

Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception,
not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise
there would be too many races with _no_ Clients!

The "refitting" of CA to the new timeline was not complete,
so we have some "paradoxes" :-)

> So I was wondering if you guys thought that was purposeful.  That 
> is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty data 
> available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and 
> inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift 
> timeline gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting.
> 
I don't remember exactly what I reviewed, but it was basically
in the "main timeline", that had been based on GURPS 1st Edition
[contradicting the explicit year of Sundiver given in the book].

Both CA and GU 2nd Ed have correct Sundiver - and all dates that
follow - in agreement with the Canon, except for minor adjustments.

Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror

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Re: A question about Contacting Aliens

[Medievalbk]

 
In a message dated 3/16/2006 6:34:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at  _Contacting
Aliens_.  And while it was fun to read again and check out  the pics, 
etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a "how to" book for  
Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, 
 
---That was to have been the title. Terragen Field Agent's Guide. 
The publisher said otherwise.
 
I noticed a substantial 
number of what *appear* to be major editing  errors in terms of what 
happened when and to whom.


---Lenagh did more of the editing than he had originally planned.  
Because some things were not edited at all. One race has a 
strange lineage because the dummy words were never  replaced
with what was supposed to come later.


For example, one page says the Caltmour died out during the  battles
with the Lions, but another says it happened ~2,000 years  ago.
 
---And the Tytlal are six fingered, and the Thennanin have  tails.

So I was wondering if you guys thought that was  purposeful. 
 
--Nope.
 
 That 
is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty  data 
available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and  
inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift timeline  
gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting.
 
--Hidden purpose? Look, all of the Thennanin spy pictures were
drawn as if the Thennanin were 2.75 meters tall, and not 3.75
meters tall. This led me to believe that they were actually taken
by a Pila who had a biological camera installed behind one of
his buttons.
 
And some Pila have fingernail claws; some Pila have solid claws.
And some Pila have five buttons; some Pila...
 

Jim


---No answer, Vilyehm





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Missouri ReThugliKLans Ban Birth Control Services

[The Fool]

Now that the thugs got Borklito and Roberts they start ratcheting up
their real agenda:

<>

The amendment, offered by Rep. Susan Phillips (R-Kansas City) removed
"voluntary choice of contraception, including natural family planning"
as one of the permissible services that county health clinics could
provide with state funding.

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A question about Contacting Aliens

[Jim Sharkey]

After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at _Contacting
Aliens_.  And while it was fun to read again and check out the pics, 
etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a "how to" book for 
Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, I noticed a substantial 
number of what *appear* to be major editing errors in terms of what 
happened when and to whom.

For example, one page says the Caltmour died out during the battles
with the Lions, but another says it happened ~2,000 years ago.

So I was wondering if you guys thought that was purposeful.  That 
is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty data 
available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and 
inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift timeline 
gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting.

Jim

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