Re: Drinking Water From Air Humidity
On 12/07/2009, at 3:42 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jul 11, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: There are several devices to do this, some of them actually on the market. One is a wind turbine arrangement that produces around 10 litres an hour (plenty for drinking purposes for several people!). Vaporators? My first job was programming binary load lifters. Very similar to your vaporators in most respects... *chuckle* Uh-huh. C. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Drinking Water From Air Humidity
On 7/12/2009 1:53:34 AM, Charlie Bell (char...@culturelist.org) wrote: On 12/07/2009, at 3:42 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jul 11, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Charlie Bell wrote: There are several devices to do this, some of them actually on the market. One is a wind turbine arrangement that produces around 10 litres an hour (plenty for drinking purposes for several people!). Vaporators? My first job was programming binary load lifters. Very similar to your vaporators in most respects... *chuckle* Uh-huh. Lol...the first time I saw Star Wars I kept seeing lifts from Dune too. xponent Sand People Maru rob ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Drinking Water From Air Humidity
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell There are several devices to do this, some of them actually on the market. One is a wind turbine arrangement that produces around 10 litres an hour (plenty for drinking purposes for several people!). I looked at reports on this, although I didn't even bothering checking the website you mentioned because you said it was down. One think struck me, although they talk about being great because alternative energy sources can be used, there was no mention of the amount of energy needed per liter of water. It reminded me of your discussion of how energy intensive desalination is. It both makes sense and is interesting how dependent so many things are on the availability of energy in low entropy states. Because, if it was just energy we needed, all we would need to do was tap the tremendous energy in the heat of the atmosphere or the oceans. Dan M. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: In despair for the state of SF
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Danny O'Dare Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 3:05 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: In despair for the state of SF There is so much good science fiction - not to mention 'slipstream', 'New Weird', etc - out there (old and new) why waste your time reading the crap? One thing I've noticed, however, is that the shelf space for what I, and from what I read most folks on Brin-L consider good sci-fi continues to shrink, being replaced by game based series, movie based series, etc. BTW, I don't think graphic novels inherently fit under the crap category. I thought The Watchman was very good. My son and I had one big argument over it. He argued that it was good literature. I argued it was good, but a different art form than literature because it used graphics to tell so much of the story. Dan M. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: In despair for the state of SF
Dan M wrote: There is so much good science fiction - not to mention 'slipstream', 'New Weird', etc - out there (old and new) why waste your time reading the crap? One thing I've noticed, however, is that the shelf space for what I, and from what I read most folks on Brin-L consider good sci-fi continues to shrink, being replaced by game based series, movie based series, etc. I think that is probably more the bookstores that you shop than an objective reality shift... I mean, sci-fi has always had a strong relationship with its pulp and mass media sides. If anything, the prominence of the game based sci-fi and movie based sci-fi should be a sign that that the industry is successful and healthy. Also, there is more speculative fiction slipping across the aisles into other categories. There have been a number of books added to my sci-fi wishlist recently that are categorized in the Literature areas of most bookstores, due to both the high brow prominence of some authors toeing into the waters and what appears to be an increasing tolerance by the literary elites for sci-fi/speculative themes and hooks. BTW, I don't think graphic novels inherently fit under the crap category. I thought The Watchman was very good. My son and I had one big argument over it. He argued that it was good literature. I argued it was good, but a different art form than literature because it used graphics to tell so much of the story. Certainly the graphic novel is a different medium for literature than the traditional novel, but graphic novels fit well within my definition of literature. Certainly semantics could be argued for days, but I think that graphic novels do trend closer to literature than, say, art or film. We could argue that perhaps a new term needs to be created to cluster graphic novels and illustrated novels distinctly from literature, but I don't see a strong need to differentiate between the type of literature that is the 'modern' graphic novel and 'classic literature'. Both are welcome to me, but then I'm not a high brow book critic. -- --Max Battcher-- http://worldmaker.net ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: In despair for the state of SF
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Max Battcher One thing I've noticed, however, is that the shelf space for what I, and from what I read most folks on Brin-L consider good sci-fi continues to shrink, being replaced by game based series, movie based series, etc. I think that is probably more the bookstores that you shop than an objective reality shift... I mean, sci-fi has always had a strong relationship with its pulp and mass media sides. If anything, the prominence of the game based sci-fi and movie based sci-fi should be a sign that that the industry is successful and healthy. What I am talking about is this: I've been going to a national chain: Barnes and Nobel's for over a decade. The amount of shelf space devoted to Sci-Fi/Fantasy has been constant during that time. As time went on, there has been less shelf space available for standard sci-fi and fantasy, and more for TV, movie and game based serialization. You know, the books that make you appreciate what a good writer Kevin Anderson really is. :-) We've recently had a Border's books open and it has similar ratios. When big bookstores like these change (they've driven Walden's Books out of business) it's probably not just the local store. Also, there is more speculative fiction slipping across the aisles into other categories. There have been a number of books added to my sci-fi wishlist recently that are categorized in the Literature areas of most bookstores, due to both the high brow prominence of some authors toeing into the waters and what appears to be an increasing tolerance by the literary elites for sci-fi/speculative themes and hooks. I guess. I do know that the books that are off the radar are the Evangelical Christian books that are the best selling books without appearing at all on the NY Times bestsellers list, because they are sold in stores that the NY Times doesn't look at. As much as I dislike the Left Behind series, they, after the Potter Series, were the best selling book series of the last decade...just off the radar. Certainly the graphic novel is a different medium for literature than the traditional novel, but graphic novels fit well within my definition of literature. Certainly semantics could be argued for days, but I think that graphic novels do trend closer to literature than, say, art or film. Film, definitely. But, I'd argue that graphic novels combine literature and art. Good art can be part of storytelling. For example, Guernica by Picasso certainly tells a story. I see graphic novels, at their best, as a new art form on the border between literature and painting. Which has real potential, since, unlike pure art, hasn't been explored to death over the last few centuries. Dan M. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Drinking Water From Air Humidity
On 13/07/2009, at 4:26 AM, Dan M wrote: -Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l- boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell There are several devices to do this, some of them actually on the market. One is a wind turbine arrangement that produces around 10 litres an hour (plenty for drinking purposes for several people!). I looked at reports on this, although I didn't even bothering checking the website you mentioned because you said it was down. One think struck me, although they talk about being great because alternative energy sources can be used, there was no mention of the amount of energy needed per liter of water. None, once it's out there. IIRC, it's a small wind turbine that cools collectors in it, and desert air is often humid even if it doesn't rain much. Even a cold beer at 3C attracts a lot of condensation. This is definitely a small scale solution for remote locations. It reminded me of your discussion of how energy intensive desalination is. Yeah, but that's a different process. But look at how much water comes out as a by-product of airconditioning systems... Charlie. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Drinking Water From Air Humidity
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell None, once it's out there. IIRC, it's a small wind turbine that cools collectors in it, and desert air is often humid even if it doesn't rain much. If the collectors are cooled, there _has to be_ a source of energy that is being used. If not, then we've just found an exception to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. A useful statement of the 2nd law for our purposes is that it is impossible to transfer heat from a cooler reservoir to a warmer one without adding work of some kind. The sites I read said that a wind turbine, solar cells, or thermal solar heaters could be used. All are sources of low entropy energy. Now, one might thing that a solar heater is an exception to the rule, but it isn't. With it, one has three reservoirs. Hot, medium, and cool. The hot is the solar heater water, the medium is the environment and the cool is the collectors. One can simultaneously transmit heat from the hot and cool to the medium, the ratio of which is determined by the laws of thermo. If need be, I can still work out the problem analytically, but it's been a while since I did the actually number crunching. :-) Speaking metaphorically, there has to be a waterwheel of some kind driving the mechanism that pulls things uphill. Even a cold beer at 3C attracts a lot of condensation. This is definitely a small scale solution for remote locations. And it took work, probably from an electric motor, to make that beer cold. Now, if you have a cold reservoir available, then the thermo is simple, but I don't think that's what's being talked about. It definitely looks like work is involved. I suppose I could figure it out, but with a wife recovering from a second knee operation, keeping house, and working full time, I probably won't do the problem just for the fun of it. But trust me, some external, low entropy source of energy is needed. A wind turbine would qualify. In essence, all we would need to know is what the output of the wind turbine is, what the water production is, and we'd have our answer. It reminded me of your discussion of how energy intensive desalination is. Yeah, but that's a different process. Fair enough, but I'm guessing you'll find that it takes a lot more energy per liter of water than you might think to pull the water out of the air. But look at how much water comes out as a by-product of airconditioning systems... And look at how big my electricity bill is to run it. :-) Dan M. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
