Re: For David Brin and the rest of you

2013-09-06 Thread Dave Land
On Sep 6, 2013, at 12:37 PM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO chided:

> Dan Minette thread-killed:
>> 
>> I don't expect to see it, ever.

I can see Alberto taking issue with this statement, except that it's just Dan
stating his expectation. Are we to judge what Dan expects?

>> But, that demo is an example of the very
>> easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project.  The
>> fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of
>> where the project is.
>> 
> This is not fair-play! :-)

It's totally fair play: With all due respect to Keith, his answer to Dan's
question implied that if Dan wanted to see the thing demonstrated, he'd better
be ready to pony up the $4M.

But regardless of how completely world-changing it may be to beam energy from
geosynchronous orbit some day, there will definitely need to be numerous,
costly "baby steps" demos.

Does anyone think that SpaceX and Virgin Galactic and XCOR and the like
bypassed testing and just built ships and launched 'em?

Dave



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RE: For David Brin and the rest of you

2013-09-06 Thread Dan Minette
 

>At $10/watt, this is about 4 million.

>How badly do you want to see this demo?

I don't expect to see it, ever.  But, that demo is an example of the very
easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project.  The
fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of
where the project is. 

Dan M.


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Re: For David Brin and the rest of you

2013-09-06 Thread Keith Henson
managing the list at
brin-l-ow...@mccmedia.com


From: David Hobby 

>On 9/5/2013 4:54 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
>> The propulsion lasers to get the parts up to GEO at a cost where the
>> whole thing makes economic sense, those are weapons, game changing
>> weapons. And if I had to bet, it would be for them to be controlled by
>> the Chinese. Keith Henson _

> Now that's a problem with the plan.

> If the lasers could be weapons controlled by one country, I can see
other countries upset enough
to sabotage the whole project.  There'd need to be a political solution
that made it clear
the lasers weren't going to be used as weapons by any group short of
most of the UN Security
Council.

John Mankins, one of the big names in power satellite research, told
me that the US would destroy a Chinese propulsion laser before it was
turned on.  Covertly.

The head of the Chinese space agency talked to visiting Indians and
proposed they jointly build power satellites.

Would the US destroy an Indian/Chinese propulsion laser?

From: "Dan Minette" 

> Do you have any vidios of lasers holding up, say, a 10kg object, for 20
minutes

20 minutes is 1200 seconds.  An object falling in a one g field would
be attain a velocity of v=gt or 11760 m/s.  Assuming 7.5 km/s exhaust
velocity, the fuel mass to hover that long would be:

1-1/e^(11760/7500) or 79%.  So you have a vehicle mass of 2.1 kg, with
7.9 kg of hydrogen

The starting power for the laser would generate g x the mass of the
vehicle, 98 N.

Force being equal to ma where a is v/t for one second for the hydrogen.

98 N = mass per second x 7500 m/s

solving for mass, about 13 gm/s

Ke per second (i.e. watts) of the hydrogen is 1/2 m v^2 or

367,500 W, tapering off over the 20 minutes to 1/5th of that amount.

At $10/watt, this is about 4 million.

How badly do you want to see this demo?

Keith

> and keeping it under control.  This would be one of the easy
feasability tests one would do at the start of any serious undertaking.
That would be one of many things that would have to be sucessfully tested
before the project would be deemed even possible.

Dan M.

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Re: For David Brin and the rest of you

2013-09-06 Thread ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO
Dan Minette thread-killed:
>
> I don't expect to see it, ever.  But, that demo is an example of the very
> easy baby steps that would have to be taken very early in the project.  The
> fact that we don't have a demo of baby steps is a very good indicator of
> where the project is.
>
This is not fair-play! :-)

Alberto Monteiro

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