Re: Domain Hierarchy
On 3/3/2014 10:37 PM, trent shipley wrote: ... The second thing it made me think is that while it cannot be said that one science is more important than another, the discursive domains indexed by sciences can be ranked as more or less foundational or derived, or more pejoratively as reductionist or ramified. Society Politics Economics Psychology Biology Chemistry Physics Trent-- You left out Mathematics? http://xkcd.com/435/ ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/5/2013 7:24 AM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO wrote: David Hobby wrote: Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? No, even if it was possible to beam energy with 100% efficiency... it's still energy. It comes down, it must get out. If not, Earth gets cooked. Alberto-- Sorry, I don't understand how getting energy from space is inherently worse than getting energy by burning stuff that's been sitting in the ground for millions of years. Either way, it's extra energy. Plus, burning carbon compounds from the ground adds to the greenhouse effect, which just beaming power down would not. There may be good arguments for conserving more rather than having cheap clean power from space, but yours isn't one. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/5/2013 4:54 PM, Keith Henson wrote: The propulsion lasers to get the parts up to GEO at a cost where the whole thing makes economic sense, those are weapons, game changing weapons. And if I had to bet, it would be for them to be controlled by the Chinese. Keith Henson _ Now that's a problem with the plan. If the lasers could be weapons controlled by one country, I can see other countries upset enough to sabotage the whole project. There'd need to be a political solution that made it clear the lasers weren't going to be used as weapons by any group short of most of the UN Security Council. ---David Zeus' lightning bolt, Maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: For David Brin and the rest of you
On 9/4/2013 4:40 PM, ALBERTO VIEIRA FERREIRA MONTEIRO wrote: Even if these things were economically viable (which they probably ain't), ambientally it would be a disaster. I can't image the Earth getting such extra amount of radiant energy and not turning it (she? Gaia?) into a hell much worse than the most pessimistic images of the most radical ecogroups. Alberto Monteiro (oil company guy) Alberto-- I'd argue that if people are going to be using all the energy anyway, they might as well be doing it without adding to the greenhouse effect. Or are you worried about energy being beamed down inefficiently, producing much more heat than just the amount from people using energy directly? ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Obama II
On a related note, I've been reading about problems with the Romney campaign's software to organize election day get-out-the-vote efforts. My first reaction was Sabotage?, but now I'm betting that incompetence is the more likely explanation. See: http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2012/president/candidates/romney/2012/11/10/orca-mitt-romney-high-tech-get-out-the-vote-program-crashed-election-day/gflS8VkzDcJcXCrHoV0nsI/story.html What do you think? ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Obama II
On 11/11/2012 6:00 PM, Dan Minette wrote: ... Well, I also read that parts of it simply failedreporting 0 votes from a long list on election day. The part that targeted voting lists to cull those who haven't voted for attention can be made modular. I don't think it was just a software failure. The campaign also neglected to tell poll watchers that they needed a certificate, and the instructions for the software were poor. http://www.businessinsider.com/romney-project-orca-disaster-2012-11 ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Earth-size planet orbiting Alpha Centauri B
On 10/17/2012 7:12 AM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Not in the habitable zone, however . . . ... (3) Copy of the article to appear in today's issue of NATURE for those who want all of the technical details: http://www.eso.org/public/archives/releases/sciencepapers/eso1241/eso1241a.pdf Ronn-- Thank you! That's an interesting article. They used a lot of observing time on a large telescope, and seemed to be really pushing the limits. I think the trickiest part was accounting for how sun spots would affect the relative luminosity of the parts of the star rotating towards versus away from us. One may just have to give up on finding planets with orbital periods close to a star's rotational period? ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Existence has arrived...
On 8/22/2012 10:08 AM, Charlie Bell wrote: It's a shiny 3D hologram trade paperback. Very excited! Um. That's all. It's interesting how books get published differently in different countries. I got the hardcover, which has a shiny dust jacket. I liked the book, although I do have some questions... ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
On 6/15/2012 2:37 AM, KZK wrote: But Eve, who is listening in to the publicly available noise, does not know which resistor was connected at each end and cannot work it out either because the laws of thermodynamics prevent the extraction of this information from this kind of signal. So why isn't this susceptible to a simple man in the middle attack?: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). Seems like this method requires a 100% secure land line, which is impractical. KZK-- I believe that Alice and Bob are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously, and sharing their measurements over a separate open channel. (The paper says the voltage/current data on the noisy channel is public.) Furthermore, they're tossing all the trials where those data show they both picked the high resistors or both picked the low. So all Eve can usefully look at are data for essentially identical trials, each one with the noise characteristic of one high and one low resistor on the channel. Eve is free to relay noise between the two lines in your example, but that won't help her. If the land line is tapped in a useful manner, the claim is that Alice and Bob can detect that it is. So they'd need a land line, but wouldn't have to secure it. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Quantum Cryptography Outperformed By Thermodynamics
On 6/15/2012 2:14 PM, KZK wrote: Eve cuts the wire between Alice and Bob (AB line) and insert her own node that connects to Alice (AE line) and Bob (BE Line) individually. Alice can't tell the difference between the AB line or the AE Line and sets her resisters. Eve sets her resisters connected on the AE line to random and deciphers the sequence that Alice used. Eve then Uses that sequence on the BE Line. Bob can't tell the difference between the AB line and the BE line, sets his resisters randomly and decodes the message. (Eve can even send Bob a False message). David Hobby Fri, 15 Jun 2012 06:31:29 -0700: I believe that Alice and Bob are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously, and sharing their measurements over a separate open channel. And so Eve man-in-the-middles the second connection too. So all of Alice and Bob's communications are with eve, so that (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are doing the resistor thing for each bit simultaneously (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other), and (Eve and Alice) And (Eve and Bob) are sharing their measurements over the separate lines (but not Alice and Bob, they have no connection with each other). Bob still can't tell the difference between Eve and Alice and Alice can't tell the difference between Eve and Bob. ... Doesn't matter, so long as Eve is between all communications channels. Between ALL communications channels, even the public ones? That's asking rather a lot of Eve. I think there are a lot of people who would use a cryptographic system that required an additional open channel, confident that they could somehow route around Eve most of the time. (Alice and Bob could be just posting their versions of the public information on their respective websites, and checking that they agreed.) But yes, it's a minor flaw that was not mentioned in the press release. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Electronic interface options
Wayne-- Hi. I'm top-posting both to make my point and because that's what this webmail client wants to do. (My own computer has video card issues at the moment.) If one wants to reply to several different points in a previous post, it makes sense to do this in one email. But how does one indicate which replies go with which points? By separating the points, and putting replies below them, of course. ---David - Original Message - From: Wayne Eddy darkenf...@gmail.com To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 10:55:56 PM Subject: Re: Electronic interface options I agree with Jon's comments about top and bottom posting. Gmail does a great job of grouping e-mails, so quoted text is just an annoyance as far as I am concerned. Isn't a stand-alone e-mail like this one easier to read than one with a lot of quoted text? Regards, Wayne. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Br¡n: On Fracking and Earthquakes
- Original Message - From: Ticia ti...@xs4all.nl To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:35:37 AM Subject: Re: Br¡n: On Fracking and Earthquakes On 27 Aug 2011, at 02:46, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 06:57 AM Friday 8/26/2011, KZK wrote: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/08/human-activity-can-cause-earthquakes/ I really like the instructions given for those who want to leave comments. . . . ronn! :) Yeah. Seems to work, too. :) Wonder how many people are left on this list? Such an oldfashioned mode of communication and info-gathering… ;) Not that I'm keeping up with the new ways much… I try, life is just way too busy right now with 3 kids full time job setting up the Dutch B-Society to spend much time figuring out how the frack FB works or posting every thought I have on Twitter… -- Ticia-- Hi. It's good to hear from you. I think a lot of us still lurk, but it's hard to keep a conversation going. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Arguing Doesn't Work: Fact Vs Belief
KZK wrote: On 11/14/2010 10:39 AM, William T Goodall wrote: ... This is why it is futile to argue with religionists. That is obvious. Anyone who professes a belief in something unprovable (or provably false) is a denialist. This isn't really a fair criticism. Religious belief is often explicitly said by its adherents to be done in the absence of evidence. At least that's how I interpret Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Once they've ceded that, using evidence to argue for or against religious belief is probably pointless. Arguments like that may well sharpen one's thinking, but are unlikely to change one's beliefs. ---David Not even as big as a mustard seed, Maru. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
The powers of cats
On a completely different note, but I felt like sharing it: One of my cats performed a successful internet search. I'd left the browser open, with iGoogle up. The cat's contribution was apparently typing 0222, a bit of mouse movement, and a click or an enter. What I woke up to was GoogleMaps, showing a local hair salon with a phone number ending in 0222. It could be that cats are not getting smarter, but Google is. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The powers of cats
Alberto Monteiro wrote: ... Is is beyond the intelligence level of cats to understand that it's possible to use the mouse and see interesting things in the screen? On a different note, do cats see computer screens the same way we do? I've seen videos of cats treating TVs as boxes with stuff inside, trying to catch things that were on screen. But my cats don't do that. Their attitude seems to be that this is just one more silly thing that two-legs do, spending their time looking at pictures. I have the mouse at the side of the monitor, so they may well have never noticed the connection. ---David It's not about intelligence, it's about motivation. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Starting Engineer's Salaries
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 8:09 PM, David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Hi. I'm with Keith on this. A mortgage is not an absolute promise to pay back the loan. Rather, the deal is that if the borrower does not keep up payments, the lender can take back the property. I'm not sure why you imply that I disagree with that, assuming we are talking about a nonrecourse loan, which is what I assume Nick has. John-- Oh? How about this quote: John Williams wrote: Only if you consider honesty and keeping your word to be ridiculous. An honorable person would not agree to borrow money from anyone, even a loan shark, if they thought that there was any possibility that they would not be able to honor their agreement and pay back the money that they borrowed. It sounds like disagreement to me. But the issue is that Nick, for whatever reason, is not walking away. Instead, it seems he tried to get the lender to accept payback of less than he borrowed, but the lender did not agree to it. Not speaking for Nick, but it certainly seems reasonable to point out to the lender that you could just default on the loan, leaving them in an even worse position than simply reducing the payments. You can't make them bargain, but it could well be in the mortgage holder's best interest. ... Another complication is that many of the mortgages are now owned, directly or indirectly, by the Federal government. That is what I meant when I wrote earlier that not paying back the full loan amount can ultimately result in the average taxpayer footing the bill. That is unfortunate. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Down with the government
John Williams wrote: ... By the way, the Chris' post fits the definition of a troll much better than anything I have posted recently, since it was not addressing any points that had been made in the thread so far, did not appear to make any effort to explain the change of subject or make a serious point, but rather seemed designed to be inflammatory. ... Wait a minute. He wrote: On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:26 AM, Chris Frandsen lear...@mac.com wrote: Sorry, Charlie, it seems the new angry crowd out there either think that roads and sewage systems just appear or that we pay too much for them. We can all go back to dirt roads and septic systems, you know:-) It's not that far off topic, definitely does make a serious point, and is less inflammatory than many of your recent comments. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: SETI@home (history)
Alberto Monteiro wrote: IIRC, there was a story somewhere that the s...@home software included a bug (like a crippleware) that would make it run _much slower_ than it could run, because there was not enough data for the millions of computers that would process this data. I am confusing things? I couldn't find any reference for this. Alberto-- Got me, but there was a problem at the start. The server kept send out the same data set over and over by mistake for a while. So a few day's worth of computing was wasted, until that was fixed. ---David It's hard to see why they would cripple the program, though. It's not like there aren't enough other distributed computing projects around. (My office computer analyzes data looking for gravity waves, when I'm not using it.) ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Starting Engineer's Salaries
John Williams wrote: ... Please explain why nobody but borrowers should have responsibility for a market failure, which seems to be what you are implying. No, you seem to be assuming that borrowers were losers, and the only losers, in the housing bubble. But regardless, it is a simple concept. Honor, honesty, integrity, whatever you want to call it. If a person agrees to something voluntarily, then they should keep their word. John-- Hi. I'm with Keith on this. A mortgage is not an absolute promise to pay back the loan. Rather, the deal is that if the borrower does not keep up payments, the lender can take back the property. I was reading something a few months ago that said richer borrowers were more prepared to default on a mortgage when the property was under water, and that poorer borrowers tried harder to keep up the payments. (Not that I think that richer people are less moral. I bet it's because richer people have more exposure to the business world, as well as access to better legal and financial advice.) ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
StratoSolar
Keith Henson wrote: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Dan Minette danmine...@att.net wrote: To: 'Killer Bs \(David Brin et al\) Discussion' We probably will never know if this StratoSolar method works. ... David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: I see bigger problems with losses in the light pipe. The plan seems to be to have a flexible tube lined with reflective material to guide the solar radiation down to steam turbines or whatever on the ground. Most of the light would have to reflect off the sides many times, losing at least a few percent of its intensity at each reflection. So nothing makes it to the ground, and the light pipe melts. There may be solutions to this too, but they're going to be tricky. How many reflections are you assuming light will make as it goes down the pipe, and how glancing are they? Keith-- Hi. Thanks for the details. I started thinking about the problem. It depends on the acceptance angle and the diameter of the light pipe. I'll give you that the spread for light come out of the whole array and into the pipe is 30 minutes, the same as the sun subtends in the sky. So that would be an average deviation of something like 10 minutes, or .003 radians. (Actually achieving that may be a headache, but I bet it could be done if it mattered. Although I believe that it doesn't matter that much, since even if light went into the pipe with only small angular errors, the average incidence angle would rapidly increase due to somewhat random reflections off the walls. See below.) This stuff: http://www.revelationlighting.co.uk/OLF%20Spec.pdf has a .99 reflectivity for angles less than 27 deg, That's pretty good reflectivity. Plastic tends to crinkle, though, so you'll need some sort of backing to help keep it flat. and almost all the loss comes from the points not being sharp. Lost me there. What points? At .999, which the optical guys say is not hard, and a 30 meter diameter light pipe, the loss is about 7%. One option is to fill the pipe with argon which reduces the Rayleigh scattering. Working backwards, you're assuming around ln(.93)/ln(.999) = 73 reflections? For a 30 km light pipe, that's around one reflection every 400 meters, for an average angle of 30/400 = .075 radians, or 4 degrees. It would take a thorough analysis, but I'm betting that successive reflections from the slightly crinkly walls of the light pipe would gradually increase the average incidence angle, pretty much like a random walk. O.K., I'll buy that, if you can get .999 reflectance at angles of a few degrees. There is 4 GW coming down the pipe. At 7% loss, 280 MW. The area of a 30 meter x 20 km pipe is 2 million square meters so the loss would be 140 W per square meter. In open air it is only going to get slightly warm. O.K., but what about localized losses? Suppose there's a sharp bend when the light pipe hits the jet stream, or something? If the pipe bends something like 45 degrees over 300 meters, then you'd have basically all the light hitting one side of the pipe over around 100 meters. And it would hit at a 10 or 15 degree angle, which probably decreases reflectivity to .995 or so? Then you've got .005 of 4GW hitting an area of around 100*30 square meters, giving .005*4GW/3000 = 7000 watts per meter. So that's as hot as grabbing a 60 watt incandescent bulb? It might still work, but things are getting tricky. For instance, after that one bend the average light ray is going to be hitting the sides of the pipe at 10 or 15 degree angles all the way down. (Unless you've got a mechanism to straighten out rays that are bouncing off the sides too much? I can't think of an easy one.) If you have a ray permanently at an angle of .2 radians, it hits every 150 meters, which would be around 100 times over 20 km. And if reflectivity is down to .995 at that angle, you're left with .995^100 = 60% of the light at the bottom. Another problem could be fluttering. If you have enough transient surface waves running over the light pipe, each one giving large random reflections to rays unlucky enough to hit it, you could rapidly have almost all of the rays bouncing off the walls at 20 or 30 degrees. That gives you more reflections per ray, each at larger angles with lower reflectance. Something like that could really cause big losses. It's an interesting problem. Thanks. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: StratoSolar
Keith Henson wrote: StratoSolar This is off NDA so I can go into detail. ... Ed's approach, which he named StratoSolar, was to reduce the mass from hundreds of kg per kW to a few tens of kg by moving the solar concentrator into the stratosphere as a large, lightweight, buoyant structure. ... The concentrated sunlight gets to the ground via a hollow light pipe lined with highly reflective prismatic plastic. Preliminary optimization for kg/kW leads to a 30-meter diameter light pipe with less than 10% loss. A larger pipe has lower losses but uses more total material per kW. Keith-- Hi. StratoSolar is interesting. I looked at the website when you mentioned it a month ago. At the time, this was my main objection: I see bigger problems with losses in the light pipe. The plan seems to be to have a flexible tube lined with reflective material to guide the solar radiation down to steam turbines or whatever on the ground. Most of the light would have to reflect off the sides many times, losing at least a few percent of its intensity at each reflection. So nothing makes it to the ground, and the light pipe melts. There may be solutions to this too, but they're going to be tricky. How many reflections are you assuming light will make as it goes down the pipe, and how glancing are they? ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Facebook troll
On 9/8/2010 2:42 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: Thanks Max, but the conversations on David's page are fascinating. However, the problem seems to be solved; I simply outed the troll, with his help. The fellow made himself rather obvious with his profile picture of a troll like creature, a prenom from a certain movie character who quotes aphorisms about life and chocolate, and a surname from a theoretical particle with no mass. Let me guess: Forest Photon? Gump Neutrino? Still no help... ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Really cheap energy
On 9/8/2010 4:32 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote: Sounds interesting, but I wonder how it would cope with a big storm? On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Keith Henson hkeithhen...@gmail.com mailto:hkeithhen...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.slideshare.net/chris8649/stratosolar-overview http://www.zinzzu.com/stratosolar.html If this works as advertised, there will be no economic reason to build SBSP. Wayne-- I'm more worried about normal high-altitude winds. While 20 km high is pretty much above the jet streams, I'm sure there's still a fair amount of wind. As pictured, the mirror apparatus would be torn to bits. But maybe one could have smaller mirrors, built into some sort of parafoil kite? I see bigger problems with losses in the light pipe. The plan seems to be to have a flexible tube lined with reflective material to guide the solar radiation down to steam turbines or whatever on the ground. Most of the light would have to reflect off the sides many times, losing at least a few percent of its intensity at each reflection. So nothing makes it to the ground, and the light pipe melts. There may be solutions to this too, but they're going to be tricky. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Trolls
On 9/7/2010 3:19 PM, John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Jon Louis Mannnet_democr...@yahoo.com wrote: Some time ago I unsubscribed from this list because of the comments of one person who has since matured. Now I am having a similar problem with someone on Dr. Brin's FB page. If there is nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something wrong with the universe. --ST:TNG, Dr. Beverly Crusher John-- Well, that was certainly helpful. ---David I'm no help either, though. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Britain leads the world
William T Goodall wrote: Jews and Muslims are allowed to ignore the laws on animal cruelty and engage in the barbaric practice of slitting the throats of live animals without numbing them in order to create kosher and halal meat. I don't have a big problem with this one. Back when it became a tradition, it WAS one of the most reliably humane ways to slaughter animals. Given that the animals are raised to be killed and eaten, the throat-slitting adds little extra cruelty to the process. ... where everyone has the same rights, and nobody is granted special rights just because they claim their ideas come from an invisible supernatural being. ... I'm with you on this one. Ideas should stand on their own, not on their supposedly supernatural provenance. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Jul 2010, at 22:45, Dan Minette wrote: It all has to do with value systems. I was mentioning William, not as finger pointing, but in recognition that he has a very different set of values than I do. I am an honest person who values truth and logical argument and conducts himself with probity. I suspect that you have a very different set of values than I do. ... You are very close to being a troll. William-- The above seems a bit excessive. I agree, one's motivations for having children tend to be complex. We have three, and I can't easily summarize what we get out of it. By most objective measures of utility, we're coming out behind. And yet, it's very rewarding. I guess I'd boil it down to one sentence as Children give one's life meaning. Not that I can define meaning! ---David A well-designed study would definitely control for wanted versus un-wanted children. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: 0.28 eV
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: BBC News - Neutrino 'ghost particle' sized up by astronomers http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10364160.stm http://tinyurl.com/3yrm78g Ronn-- Thanks for the link. Uh..., for science writing of that quality, would it be possible to provide a clearer idea of what the article was about? Using data from the largest ever survey of galaxies, researchers put the mass of a neutrino at no greater than 0.28 electron volts. Thanks! ---David Ghost particles in the sky, Maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: !Brin: Potter
KZK wrote: David Brin Wrote: Go read some of ther terrific “fanfic” or fan-generated fiction out there. Here’s a great example: futurist/scholar Eliezer Yudkowsky’s ongoing series/novel that is both a tribute to - and deconstruction of - J.K. Rowling’s fantasy universe. HARRY POTTER AND THE METHODS OF RATIONALITY ... I thought that _Already Existed_ was called Negima!, Magister Negi Magi, an ongoing Manga series. Probably not. I'm about 15 chapters in to Harry Potter and the Method of Rationality, and recommend it highly. A lot of its genius is that it stays very close to the original books. (So it's best appreciated by those who've read at least one of those books.) ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Any comments on this piece?
Alberto Monteiro wrote: David Hobby wrote: You have a wrong idea about Brazil. Unfortunately, the paradise that movies like Blame it on Rio or Tourists depict is as far away from actual Brazil as Escape from NY or The Postman [*] is from the actual USA. Is the difference between depiction and reality in the same direction? No, as far away is absolute value Trying to think of a movie that portrays the USA as a good place to visit... American Pie, Basic Instinct, Hair, Deep Throat, The Girl Next Door, Porky's, Flashdance, 9 1/2 weeks, Showgirls, Back to the Future, American Beauty ... just to mention a few of them. Alberto-- I don't know if you're kidding or not. I see that as a pretty random list of movies, all of which are set in the USA. Showgirls was definitely a bad movie. I didn't really need to be reminded of it. : ) ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Any comments on this piece?
Alberto Monteiro wrote: David Hobby wrote: Trying to think of a movie that portrays the USA as a good place to visit... American Pie, Basic Instinct,... ... And all of them portray the USA in a very positive way! Alberto-- Help me, I'm working on this. The message of Basic Instinct is Sure, the USA is full of crazy women who will kill you with an ice pick. But at least they're hot and rich. Or? I think Showgirls is a great movie, and the selling of DVDs just proves that. Alberto Monteiro No comment on that one. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Any comments on this piece?
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Ronn! Blankenship wrote: Petrobras was :-) Did they make women's undergarments out of petroleum? You have a wrong idea about Brazil. Unfortunately, the paradise that movies like Blame it on Rio or Tourists depict is as far away from actual Brazil as Escape from NY or The Postman [*] is from the actual USA. Is the difference between depiction and reality in the same direction? ---David Trying to think of a movie that portrays the USA as a good place to visit... ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Troll Wars 2: Report from Wikipedia
Alberto-- In the on-going saga of the pruning of Wikipedia, the article Streaker_(David_Brin) was proposed for deletion, but kept. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Streaker_(David_Brin)#Streaker_.28David_Brin.29 The proposer, Abductive, may even have been right. But that does not mean that he is not a troll. The asymmetry of the process bothers me. All he has to do is put the article up for deletion, claiming it has no valid references in secondary sources. Then anybody who wants to keep the article has to scramble to find the references. I'm sure I spent more time defending the article than he did attacking it. ---David ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Patience
Charlie Bell wrote: On 23/02/2010, at 7:39 AM, Nick Arnett wrote: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Jon Louis Mann net_democr...@yahoo.com wrote: Michael, what job is it that's so draining FYI, folks, he signed off the list right after posting his message, so don't expect answers. Shame. C. I emailed him offlist about it, and here's his reply: David Hobby wrote: Michael Harney wrote: I thought I was ready to come back here. I was wrong. I was too damaged by the last few years of my life working in a job that I was ill suited for but had to do to make ends meet. I'll come back when I relearn patience. Michael-- Hi. Nick says you signed off right after you sent this. A bunch of us replied, saying please stay. You seem patient enough. I've gotten pretty adept at editing myself before sending anything. If you had read some of the first drafts, you would know what I mean. When I read some of the emails my first feelings are anger, frustration and disgust. While typing my replies, I realize after a while that I am overreacting, so I go back and reword, edit, and sometimes just delete emails before sending them. I'll be coming back. Probably summer when I am less stressed, better rested, and less likely to overreact. (Unless you wound up spending more time than you had free on your long post. I can see how that could be a problem.) No, my posts haven't taken too much of my time. I just need to find a way back to where I don't have the knee jerk reaction of feeling anger when I hear someone say something I strongly disagree with. I think a big part of the problem is that while I was at my prior job, I was taking anti-anxiety meds in the form of SSRIs so that I could cope. I have since stopped taking those medications, and so when anything stresses me I just don't deal with it very well. I need to get used to being off of those meds. I appreciate people wanting me to stay. It means a lot to me. Like I said, I will be coming back in time. Feel free to forward this to the list if you think the list members would like to know a little more about why I am leaving for now. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin Wiki and Trolls
Jon Louis Mann wrote: ... My sense is that this is a philosophical thing to him--he's in the Deletionist camp on Wikipedia, who want to limit the number of articles on non-notable topics. (He also questions articles on minor academic journals, people I've never heard of, and so on.) ... Thanks, David, for that succinct, but thorough explanation of what motivates the troll and one way to circumvent it. The fact that this character is operating behind a false persona indicates he doesn't even have the convictions of his philosophical principles. ---Jon Jon-- Actually, using a nickname is very common among Wikipedia editors, good and bad. (It took me a while to figure out who Albmont was, even.) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin Wiki and trolls
Jon Louis Mann wrote: I don't understand turning the Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia into a wiki format or what's a Brin Wiki, but I am all for doing anything to block trolls from remove any of Dr. Brin's contributions to the SF lexicon. Jon-- Hi. I guess the conversation got a bit involved there. The troll wants to remove some free-standing articles from Wikipedia. Notably those on Alvin (the young Hoon on Jijo) and on the Streaker. My sense is that this is a philosophical thing to him--he's in the Deletionist camp on Wikipedia, who want to limit the number of articles on non-notable topics. (He also questions articles on minor academic journals, people I've never heard of, and so on.) Whether or not the Alvin and Streaker articles stay, our sense was that it would be easier to build an extensive Wiki without the contributions of people like him. Hence the plan to set something up apart from Wikipedia. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The worst
Nick Arnett wrote: My friends I hate to write this. Been putting it off for a while. My younger sister, Lesley, the youngest of the four of us, mother of my five-year-old niece, Sarah, could not fight off the sepsis that attacked her body. Lesley died this morning. I have never hurt so much. Nick Nick-- I'm very sorry for your loss. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Honey, I'm home!
Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: Hi all! ... I'm back. ... Jeroen “Blast From The Past” van Baardwijk Jeroen-- Hi, and welcome back. It has been awhile. One question: What are your plans for the other Brin-L, the one at http://www.brin-l.com/frame.html ? I'd suppose that the archives for the two lists should eventually be merged somehow. But in the short term, how about putting up a link to this list? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/
... It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker. The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo. ... If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is references to them in books not written by David Brin. Does anybody know any? ---David ___ Jumping in here without reading the whole thread (bad form, I know, but I have no time to even be reading what I've read and replying *now*), but an amazon.com search might turn something up. It's given me stupid references to things inside books when I've been looking for just one thing in particular, so, at least in theory, that should work now. Julia ... Julia-- Thanks for the suggestion. Google Book Search seems better, though. I found a synopsis in _What do I read next? 97_ that way. (Or little snippets of it, since that's what the search returned.) So I put that and some other references in the Alvin article, removed the tags from it, and put it (and 15 more Brin-related pages) on my watchlist. The sense I get is that Abductive is on a crusade against poorly-sourced articles. It's silly in a way, since it's easy enough to hunt up sources, and putting them in doesn't really improve the articles. The best spin I can put on his actions are that he's trying to get people to improve their articles. Once people have put enough effort into an article to add references, it WILL probably be a good article. ---David Oh, and Happy New Year to everybody! ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Another Conserpadia accidental joke: Fidel Castro is dead
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: No, this one may be right. Fidel got too sick to rule and was followed by his brother Raul(?). What is the _reliable_ source that Fidel is undead? Alberto Monteiro How about Van Helsing's _Who's Who of Vampires_? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/
... It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker. The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo. It must be a Brin-hater. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=Special:Contributionslimit=50target=Abductive So the user is Abductive, and he seems to spend a lot of time proposing articles for deletion. All except Streaker now just have notability tags, which seem mild enough to leave. But it could well be the first step in a campaign. He seems to not have status much higher than the rest of us editors, so the articles won't be deleted without due process. If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is references to them in books not written by David Brin. Does anybody know any? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
Alberto Monteiro wrote: David Hobby wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo Alberto-- Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it, since it involves a major character in a series of popular science fiction novels. No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful. Alberto-- Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going back and forth with the troll, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo Some of this is because I don't really understand his criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry. The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's page. But wait, the entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore is just a stub... Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_ marked as such. Just take a look a the article about The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre movie... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film) ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without respect for those who don't know the stories! Aren't they usually marked as plot synopses, or something? But you're right, I bet a lot of people don't care about avoiding spoilers. O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift Universe in the meantime, and copying its content onto Wikipedia as time passes. I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki, copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia. And all the Wikipedia articles would have would be a link to the extra material? That seems fair, too. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
Charlie Bell wrote: On 29/12/2009, at 3:44 AM, David Hobby wrote: Alberto-- Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going back and forth with the troll, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo Some of this is because I don't really understand his criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry. Maybe it should be merged into a List of Characters in the Second Uplift Trilogy page, however. I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books are, but all the characters getting an individual entry, or even many of them? Charlie-- I agree, one has to draw the line some place. Though this guy does seem to be a stickler about notability. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: [Fwd: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/]
Trent Shipley wrote: ... A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis. Given the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki. In short, you can have both. ... From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro ... Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo ... Alberto-- Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it, since it involves a major character in a series of popular science fiction novels. If we want to keep it, the thing to do would be to tie it in better with other articles. The Hoon article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoon_(fiction) could say something like The most detailed references to the Hoon appear in the Jijo series. The major Hoon character in those books is Alvin Hph-wayuo, who... (This should be brief, but lets you link to the Alvin page.) The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's page. But wait, the entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore is just a stub... O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift Universe in the meantime, and copying its content onto Wikipedia as time passes. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Recursion in C, as told by Kernigan, Ritchie, and Lovecraft
Warren Ockrassa wrote: I really enjoyed this, but can't share it with my colleagues, since they wouldn't get either reference. Sometimes it's really a pain in the ass to be a programmer and English major working in a PR department as the graphics guy. http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html That is nice. I'm sure I can find some people who'll appreciate both references, and not just say that the followers of Cthuhlu should use different variable names for clarity. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: How to tell if a star has planets?
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 02:05 PM Saturday 11/14/2009, Keith Henson wrote: Go there and look. ... Yeah, I've suggested that before, but it's hard enough getting funding for something like Kepler . . . . . . ronn! :) I still thought it could be a nice result, if it panned out. Before actively sending something to a star, we'll probably have a good enough telescope that we can see the planets. So directly looking for planets might be the best test in practice. But if having had planets leaves a trace in a star, it would still be a good first test. We might even see things like stars with observed lithium abundances that indicate they've had planets, but with no planets currently visible. ---David One never knows, Maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: How to tell if a star has planets?
Deborah Harrell wrote: David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Debbi wrote: Are protoplanets made of protomatter?! Just who are these surveyors, and are they being unethical scientists!? Is protomatter related to protomorphogens, the 'primitive matter which makes up organs' and is sold on a website I decline to pass on?... Protomatter is obviously made out of protons. Protomorphogens would be made of protists? (Trying to keep my fields straight, here.) Only if protists are itsy-bitsy Animorphs - or maybe that was Pokemen? But it's definitely not Higgs bosons. O.K., how about stem cells, made from the stems of real plants? (Yarrow could be good, for the I Ching connection. But papaver somniferum was my first choice.) ---David Debbi Tardigrades Rule! Maru:) Yes, but can I have one big enough to ride? ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: How to tell if a star has planets?
Deborah Harrell wrote: David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: ... O.K., how about stem cells, made from the stems of real plants? (Yarrow could be good, for the I Ching connection. But papaver somniferum was my first choice.) I actually had to look up the latter - all the times I've seen The Wizard of Oz nothwithstanding. As for the species, I might favor penstemon: Note that I was going to use the stems, going for word play over biological activity. ... in these moments of sorrow and pain, the soul must have the courage to rebuild itself and the faith to trust in a higher power. Penstemon flower essence has enormous strengthening powers, enabling the soul to tap into reservoirs of courage and resilience which are normally inaccessible to human consciousness. At its deepest level of transformation. Penstemon essence shows the soul that it has freely chosen even the harshest circumstances for its growth and evolution... That is well written. I'm impressed. And I thought that souls freely chose bodies in harsh circumstances just by being at the back of the line for reincarnation. : ) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
How to tell if a star has planets?
Hi. I just saw the following in article summaries from Nature. The actual article is behind a paywall, but this seems interesting. ---David Editor's Summary 12 November 2009 In search of solar lithium Stars similar to the Sun in age, mass and composition show a wide range of lithium abundances, which is hard to explain. The surface lithium abundance of the Sun itself is 140 times less than the primordial Solar System value, yet the Sun's surface convective zone is thought not to extend far enough into the interior to reach regions where lithium can get hot enough to be burned. A new survey of Sun-like stars with and without detected planets now suggests that the planets may hold the key to the Sun's missing lithium. The stars with planets have less than 1% of the primordial lithium abundance, whereas those with no detected planets range more widely, with half of them having about 10% of primordial abundance. It is possible that the presence of protoplanets increases mixing in the stellar disk so that lithium reaches interior regions where the temperatures are sufficient to destroy it. (And as far as flying flags at half mast, New York does it constantly. Well, whenever a soldier from the state dies in Iraq or Afghanistan. So pretty much constantly. : () ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: How to tell if a star has planets?
Deborah Harrell wrote: David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Hi. I just saw the following in article summaries from Nature. The actual article is behind a paywall, but this seems interesting. ... Are protoplanets made of protomatter?! Just who are these surveyors, and are they being unethical scientists!? Is protomatter relateted to protomorphogens, the 'primitive matter which makes up organs' and is sold on a website I decline to pass on? (Not kidding about the latter - various friends with currently non-curable diseases send me stuff and ask about it...Predators abound.) Debbi Protomatter is obviously made out of protons. Protomorphogens would be made of protists? (Trying to keep my fields straight, here.) ---David Whatever happened to good old snake oil? ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The thread about the thread Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
Doug Pensinger wrote: Julia wrote: It's amazing what you find needs doing when you finally have all your kids in school for a full day for the first time ever. I might have most of it done by the time school gets out in early June! I've heard the same thing about retirement; my brother-in-law and his brother, both firefighters, retired this past year and both of them say they've never been busier. That's the kind of busy I need... Good to hear from you all that haven't posted much, maybe we can get a rip roaring discussion going. Anybody over hear read Banks' new one? Doug _Transitions_. I bought it two months ago, and have been so busy that I'm only 50 pages into it. But so far, I like it. I think in both cases, it's sort of a deferred maintenance problem. When you finally have time, there's a BIG backlog to deal with. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The thread about the thread Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
Julia Thompson wrote: ... I think in both cases, it's sort of a deferred maintenance problem. When you finally have time, there's a BIG backlog to deal with. ... Yes. And in our case, it was compounded by our daughter refusing to sleep in the room she shared with her twin brother, starting about 5 weeks before school started. The project to get the spare room fixed up to be a bedroom for a 6-year-old took a big chunk of time, and that wasn't quite finished until about 4 weeks later, partly because there were some hard deadlines for 2 other projects in the meantime. :P I don't know if that counts as deferred maintenance or not. But I guess it did from your daughter's point of view. : ) We are in the process of finishing a room move too, actually a swap, which added the difficulty that neither room was empty for long. Our older daughter is only here some weekends, so it was time for her to give up her big room, and let the younger daughter move into it. And of course we painted, and fixed furniture, and so on... I guess that was deferred maintenance, but we weren't the ones who deferred it. I'm thinking about what has to be done in the breakfast nook at this point, and figuring that maybe I'll work on it for an hour tomorrow, or maybe I won't. (I think that 2-3 hours will have it *done*, but the first hour is going to be a bear.) Julia Or maybe you deserve a break, who knows? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Fwd: Another on-line test . . .
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: This is a story about a girl. While at the funeral of her own mother, she met a guy whom she did not know. She thought this guy was amazing, so much the dream guy that she was searching for that she fell in love with him immediately. However, she never asked for his name or number and afterward could not find anyone who knew who he was. A few days later the girl killed her own sister. Question: Why did she kill her sister? ... Ronn-- So the answer involving incest and abortion is the normal one? Good to know... ---David Interesting test--Snopes thinks so too. : ) http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/sister.asp ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Wife's suggestion!
Charlie Bell wrote: On 23/09/2009, at 8:26 AM, Pat Mathews wrote: If I was uncivil, I apologize. I said what it appeared to me to be, but I may be wrong. At any rate, this was addressed, not to those who considered the plea ineffective, but those who began religious arguments. Well, this is a list where we could start a pretty indepth discussion on whether Jaffa Cakes are biscuits or cakes (um, I'm agnostic on this). So Charlie-- Just to prove your point, I'll say they're cookies. (Which are not biscuits, since those are typically made with buttermilk. : ) ) The Christian nation bit rubs me the wrong way too. Probably because I've heard it used to justify things I strongly disagree with. ---David Mr Potter ruled that the Jaffa Cake is a cake. McVities therefore won the case and VAT is not paid on Jaffa Cakes. --Wikipedia ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:31 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: No, I didn't bring it up. Would you prefer the statement I am prepared to make everybody in America pay their share to keep people from dying because they can't afford to pay for basic health care.? Then we have a fundamental disagreement, because either way you say it, the consequences of your statement are that you, personally, think that you have a right to decide how my money should be spent. I suspect that you see it in the abstract. I do not. But there does not seem to be any point in arguing further about it. John-- I don't get this. You recently wrote: No, I do not propose that the US should abolish all taxes, and I have written that here before. So some taxes are O.K.? But I imagine that some of the people paying those taxes would rather not have their money spent on items paid for with those taxes. So can't they always make the same complaint you did above? Help me out? When do you believe taxation is justified? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: John Williams wrote: I don't get this. You recently wrote: No, I do not propose that the US should abolish all taxes, and I have written that here before. So some taxes are O.K.? But I imagine that some of the people paying those taxes would rather not have their money spent on items paid for with those taxes. So can't they always make the same complaint you did above? Help me out? When do you believe taxation is justified? ... If you really want to discuss this again, please start a new thread and ask me again. ... John-- I did start the new thread, and am interested in a sensible discussion on the topic. Back on this thread, you seem to have a contradiction in your position. Until this is resolved, kindly cease to refer to taxation as taking your money, etc. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Is taxation ever justified, was: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 2:02 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: John Williams wrote: I don't get this. You recently wrote: No, I do not propose that the US should abolish all taxes, and I have written that here before. So some taxes are O.K.? But I imagine that some of the people paying those taxes would rather not have their money spent on items paid for with those taxes. So can't they always make the same complaint you did above? Help me out? When do you believe taxation is justified? Once again I am asked something that I have already answered, and yet others say my posts are repetitive. If you really want to discuss this again, please start a new thread and ask me again. John-- O.K., here's a new thread, as per your request. I don't really see why a new thread is justified, since this seems to get at something you've said repeatedly in the old thread. You claim that spending taxes on health care is taking your money from you by force, or somesuch. Why make such an inflammatory claim, when that is what ALL taxes do? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Is taxation ever justified, was: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:23 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: here's a new thread, as per your request. I don't really see why a new thread is justified, since this seems to get at something you've said repeatedly in the old thread. You claim that spending taxes on health care is taking your money from you by force, or somesuch. Why make such an inflammatory claim, when that is what ALL taxes do? That is not a way to frame a discussion that makes me want to participate. I'm not being coy -- I just don't see that we will make any progress in understanding each other's views when you start a discussion that way. John-- At the moment, it's not clear to me that you HAVE any coherent views on the legitimacy of taxation. If you do, feel free to outline them. It seems that whenever I press you for details on this kind of thing, you get vague. Can you do better than taxation is O.K. as long as government is small? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:29 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Until this is resolved, kindly cease to refer to taxation as taking your money, etc. Are you serious? Yes. It's a dishonest way to refer to it, since you admit that taxation is in principle justified. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Bruce Bostwicklihan161...@sbcglobal.net wrote: On Sep 8, 2009, at 4:19 PM, John Williams wrote: If you really want to discuss this again, please start a new thread and ask me again. *If*. Right. I already stated my opinion that I don't think it is worth arguing about (AGAIN). I'd much rather discuss the points brought up in DeLong's article. The only posts in this thread about the article were Doug's and mine (and I think Doug only got to the excerpt). The thread wandered from topic and wasn't retitled. That's how things usually work here... ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Is taxation ever justified, was: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: ... John-- At the moment, it's not clear to me that you HAVE any coherent views on the legitimacy of taxation. If you do, feel free to outline them. It seems that whenever I press you for details on this kind of thing, you get vague. Can you do better than taxation is O.K. as long as government is small? Getting worse. Care to try again? No. It's basically put up, or shut up. And it's arrogant on your part to keep asking others to dredge through the archives for your earlier posts. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
Jo Anne wrote: Hello list-- Dan wrote: Anyways, when we aren't arguing with John; not much is said around here any more. None of us has his talent for generating list traffic. :-) To which I would argue, is low traffic a bad thing? I think the signal:noise ratio has gone way up, lately. Again, I remember quite a bit of traffic around JDG every six months or so when he'd stir the pot on the abortion debate. You might miss him and all that traffic, Dan, but I sure don't. Jo Anne-- Hi. There I was, doing my bit to produce list traffic. Sorry... ... Another thing I'd like to point out, for not particular reason, is Where Are The Women On This List? Are Julia and I the only xx's left? You lurking females out there, *Please* speak up on anything and everything. This has become BrinL for mostly men and a couple of women. It could be that lurking women are carefully avoiding this thread. : ) Chris wrote: As small as WWI or before? No way will that happen unless there is an international disaster and major die-off of the human species. Of course we might be on the way to that already due to environmental changes. This is something I worry about -- what will our Grandchildren be doing when they're my age? What will the world be like for them? The primary group we donate to each year is trying to reduce world populations. I'm worried we're approaching a colony count that's going to exceed carrying capacity. Doom and gloom? Maybe -- so convince me otherwise, guys. To me, the main problem is that the people using most of the resources (us) are relatively rich enough that we don't feel much incentive to use them efficiently. Consider fueling vehicles with ethanol made from corn--we have so much food we're prepared to feed it to our cars! But not everyone is so lucky. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:44 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Yes. It's a dishonest way to refer to it, since you admit that taxation is in principle justified. Calling a spade a spade is not dishonest. And I did not admit that taxation is in principle justified. Telling me how to express myself is not a way to have a productive discussion. It is too dishonest, since you said: No, I do not propose that the US should abolish all taxes, and I have written that here before. I am still reading that as taxation is in principle justified. Why are you singling out taxes paid for health care as taking my money? Anybody could say that about any government spending, so it's meaningless. Arguing fairly and honestly is the way to have a discussion with me. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: ... On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 5:44 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Yes. It's a dishonest way to refer to it, since you admit that taxation is in principle justified. ... Arguing fairly and honestly is the way to have a discussion with me. You're still not getting it. I am not interested in discussing this topic with you since you have called me dishonest, inflammatory, incoherent, and told me how I should express myself. That is not the way to get me interested in a discussion. This will be my final response on the issue, unless you start a thread and convince me that you are willing to consider that I might possibly have a reasonable viewpoint on the issue (even if you disagree with my views), and that you are genuinely interested in understanding my viewpoint. John-- If you reread my posts, I believe you will notice that I never actually called YOU dishonest, inflammatory or incoherent. I have used those terms to describe some of your methods of argument. Don't take it personally? I submit that the first step might be for you to clearly articulate a viewpoint. I keep trying to dig one out from what you write, only to have you tell me that you didn't say that. As for your offlist email to me, notice that it fits with what I'm saying. I did NOT call you names, but said that your ACTIONS were arrogant. Which I'll stand by. And it's arrogant on your part to keep asking others to dredge through the archives for your earlier posts. [OFFLIST] Seriously? You call me arrogant, because I don't want to discuss something with you after you have repeatedly insulted me and my views? You are quite a character yourself, sir. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:56 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: (Anyway, aren't charitable contributions tax-deductible?) You do realize that tax-deductible means that your taxes are reduced by some fraction of the amount you donate, not the whole amount? Less than half, in fact. Yes, of course. The other is called a tax credit. You can't very well expect to get full tax credits for charitable donations, since it would be easy to arrange to get some of that benefit back from the charity. (By having it hire your children, or some such. My wife worked for an arts foundation that had exactly that arrangement.) For all I know, you could actually be spending all your money on things that hurt the common good. So the above is not a very convincing argument. There are also people who cheat on their taxes. And those who commit fraud to get government money that they are not legally entitled to. I do not assume that your views are invalid because you might possibly be one of those people. Your argument seemed to be: Money I pay in taxes is money I won't give to worthy charities. I didn't buy the ARGUMENT, for obvious reasons. That was not an attack on your views. I think we both want things to be fair as we perceive it. You're worried about your money being spent on people who don't deserve it. I'm not that concerned about that, and am prepared to accept a bit of waste. But apparently you are also prepared to accept waste of other people's money. How is it fair for you to waste other people's money? For the last time, MONEY YOU PAY IN TAXES IS NO LONGER YOUR MONEY. It then belongs to the government. We can talk about how we don't want the Government to waste its money. Or we could start a separate thread about Taxation is theft. I'm not too excited about that topic, unless you want to outline how you would run a country without collecting taxes. That would be an interesting problem, although I expect there's no practical solution... ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 1:31 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: Your argument seemed to be: Money I pay in taxes is money I won't give to worthy charities. I didn't buy the ARGUMENT, for obvious reasons. That was not an attack on your views. It is not an argument, it is a statement of the truth. John-- Sorry for the misunderstanding. You said it in the context of a discussion, so it looked like an argument. If you are giving that much to charity, that's good. But it's mostly irrelevant to what we were talking about. ---David No, I didn't get the hate America comment either. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:55 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: If you are giving that much to charity, that's good. But it's mostly irrelevant to what we were talking about. Possibly irrelevant, but you were the one that brought it up, saying you were prepared to take money away from me to give to others. Yes, I AM prepared to make you pay your share to keep people from dying because they can't afford to pay for basic health care. No, I didn't bring it up. Would you prefer the statement I am prepared to make everybody in America pay their share to keep people from dying because they can't afford to pay for basic health care.? I think we're having a general discussion about health care. Our own experiences may be used as examples, but that's all. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: ... Taking away my money against my will and limiting my choices for what kind of health care I can purchase is taking away my freedom of choice. ... John-- This is why I've quit talking with you about health insurance. When pressed, your bottom line seems to be taxation equals theft. I disagree, and doubt that you can design a practical society where government activities are funded solely by user fees. Regardless, it's hard to have much of a conversation with you when you've unilaterally taken most of the options off the table. If your main point is that it's impossible to have (somewhat) universal access to affordable health care without taking money from people who don't want to contribute it, we may be prepared to agree with that, and all move on to another topic... ---David Yes, I AM prepared to make you pay your share to keep people from dying because they can't afford to pay for basic health care. No one gets to have complete freedom of choice. Live with it. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 2:50 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: ... Yes, I AM prepared to make you pay your share to keep people from dying Really? Would you literally come to my house with a gun and force me to give you money, telling me that you know better who it should be spent on than I do? John-- No, that's what governments are for. I agree with you, they do tax by force. So? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
John Williams wrote: On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Bruce Bostwicklihan161...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Beyond proposals, though, there is a very strong argument to be made that it's inhumane to simply leave people to die if they can't find insurance coverage to pay for medical care that costs hundreds of times what they could afford on their own. And what are you, personally, doing about it? Are you living in the cheapest apartment you can find, with no computer or TV or automobile, so that you can give more money and save several more people from dying? If you take money from me, you are leaving people to die: http://www.weforum.org/pdf/whitepaper.pdf | A child born in Niger today is 40 times more likely to die before | her fifth birthday than a child born in the United Kingdom. ... John-- Not that I don't trust you personally, but I'm sure there are people who claim to be giving money to worthy charities but aren't. (Anyway, aren't charitable contributions tax-deductible?) For all I know, you could actually be spending all your money on things that hurt the common good. So the above is not a very convincing argument. I think we both want things to be fair as we perceive it. You're worried about your money being spent on people who don't deserve it. I'm not that concerned about that, and am prepared to accept a bit of waste. I'm more concerned about people who won't contribute to efforts for the common good, so I'm prepared to use the government to make them contribute. I do not perceive letting people opt out of paying for the needy as fair. To me, it rewards those who are heartless, since they'll keep their money. I see that as very unfair. This may in fact mean that I'm less likely to contribute to charity. When people in my community take up a collection to pay someone's medical expenses, my reactions tend to be: 1) Why doesn't the government provide a decent social safety net so this doesn't happen? 2) What about all the other people in similar straits who don't have a network of family and friends to organize a charity drive for them? 3) This is an obvious draw, which will probably get a fair amount of money since it tugs at everybody's emotions-- I can use my charitable donations more efficiently somewhere else. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: DeLong on health insurance reform
Patrick Sweeney wrote: ... No, that's what governments are for. I agree with you, they do tax by force. So? Someone else asked this in an earlier conversation, but does anyone else on the list ever have the government come to their house with a gun and force them to file their taxes? It's never happened to me. How much in back taxes do you have to owe before the government sends the IRS SWAT team to your house, I wonder? I'm sure if you owed enough, they'd come after your wages or possessions by legal means. And if you fought back when the sheriff came to take your house, car or whatever, then yes, they may eventually send a SWAT team. The fact that most people give in before the SWAT team comes does not mean that it's not there as backup. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: More Pluto Goofyness . . .
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Charlie Bell wrote: IIRC, Phobos is falling and Deimos is leaving Mars. ...and our moon is leaving too. No, it's not. If the Sun didn't explode [*], the Earth-Moon system would stabilize in two tidal-locked bodies. Alberto-- I'd go with doesn't, but that does make it seem like not exploding is a possibility. As for why we don't see moons with submoons, it may just be hard for moons to capture submoons. It must require a pretty close match of trajectories. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: More Pluto Goofyness . . .
Bruce Bostwick wrote: ... And why with 100+ moons, none of them has a sub-moon? My guess would be that there just aren't many stable solutions to a close-in three-body problem like that. Jupiter's gravitational effects dominate the orbital dynamics of a good part of the solar system, and many of its satellites are fairly close to its Roche limit to begin with, so my back-of-the-napkin guess would be that sub=moons would be extremely rare and tend not to be in very stable orbits. Bruce-- I think there certainly are stable solutions for some planet/moon systems without submoons. The orbit of the submoon would have to be definitely inside the Hill sphere of the moon. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere To me, the problem is more that it's very unlikely that objects will get captured by the moon. ---David And smaller fleas to bite them, Maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: List administrators: list broken!
John Williams wrote: ... I wonder if the list administrators are reading this thread... Where are the we ? Right here, as always. But we don't own the list. (I'm not sure passive/aggressive is the right word, but seriously, give it a rest...) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: List administrators: list broken!
John Williams wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: (I'm not sure passive/aggressive is the right word, but seriously, give it a rest...) One of us apparently has no sense of humor. Because of course, it couldn't just have not been funny. : ) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: List administrators: list broken!
John Williams wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:43 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: John Williams wrote: On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: (I'm not sure passive/aggressive is the right word, but seriously, give it a rest...) One of us apparently has no sense of humor. Because of course, it couldn't just have not been funny. : ) That would indicate that the one of us that has no sense of humor is me, would it not? Not necessarily, since many people use sense of humor to just talk about whether or not people get jokes. Tough week? Yes, but that's a separate issue. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: It is interesting what some people find rude which does not seem rude to others. I suspect that a neutral observer would look at my posts during the last few weeks and judge that they are not at all rude. I have been asking some uncomfortable questions, but not making any obviously rude remarks. John-- This time around, you've been much better. When you started here (late last Fall?) you were much worse. The interesting thing is that the data do not support the claim that my posts make people less likely to communicate here. Rather, just the opposite. If you look at the volume of non-JW posts as a function of JW-posts to this list, there is a remarkably large positive correlation. That doesn't really prove anything. For instance, a flame war would produce a large number of posts, but one could hardly call that communication. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Nick Arnettnick.arn...@gmail.com wrote: We have a sense of community here, along with the usual collaterals of explicit and implicit standards of behavior and discourse. We do, indeed. We don't like straw men or trolls (which I can't help observing are at two rather opposite ends of the materials spectrum, whatever that might signify). There's that we several more times. How many people subscribe to this email list, and how many of them do you speak for when you say we? How did you determine that these people have that view? John-- You're not going to claim that all the lurkers are the silent majority are you? : ) This is a silly discussion, because every statement Nick made above would get broad agreement on most established lists. What do you want, that we should all sign a petition? ---David FYI, there ARE etiquette guidelines for the list. (In fact, googling finds several slightly different versions. Here's an old one from the archives, at a previous host: http://www.mail-archive.com/bri...@cornell.edu/msg13842.html Julia Thompson, posting in 2002.) Etiquette Guidelines The Brin-L Mailing List exists for the discussion of matters pertaining to the writings of Drs. Brin and Benford and topics of interest to list members. As members of a civilization, these are the guidelines we agree to live under: - We post as if every message we write as if we were going to read it aloud in front of the whole group. - We sign our messages with our name and e-mail address. - We are tolerant of subject threads that bore us to death. - We keep subject lines appropriate to the contents of the message. - We do NOT include the entire message to which we are replying. - We DO include a few lines if our reply can't stand on its own. - We DO keep attributions correctly assigned to the original poster. - We do NOT send terse, one line replies. - We use emphasis to make our comments clear. (Stars, smilies, etc.) - We use white space and keep our paragraphs short. - We keep our line length below 80 characters. - If our reply is more appropriately directed only at the original poster, we don't send it to the entire list. - If our message is funny, frivolous, humourous, or is generally silly in nature, we add a Silly/Humor flag to the subject line so others can identify it easily. - We flag long messages with GLL, ELL or L3 in the subject line. (In deference to our Grand Past Alpha Mails this stands for Gord like length, Eythain like length or Lazh like length) We agree that: - Questions are welcome. - Extensive discussions that get into the nitty-gritty of the subject are welcome. - Funny, silly, frivolous, amusing, playful, joking, cheerful postings are welcome. Original humor, especially if it pertains to an existing thread, is quite welcome. Forwarding blanket humor from other sources is discouraged, but not forbidden. - We are a multilingual group, and as such we tolerate mistakes and idiosyncracies when they show up on the list in English (American English). We remember that some folks may not be the best typists around, and tolerate those mistakes as well. We all will kindly answer any questions others have about our native language in a friendly manner. - Brin and Benford ROCK. =+)) Trevor Sands is the best screen writer ever. Most of the time we think Iain Banks is pretty cool, too. We will further endeavor to remember, as David Brin says, to Remind yourself, now and then, to say the following phrase: 'I am a member of a civilization.' (IAAMOAC). Our society has its flaws, but if you ponder history, and cantankerous human nature, it's astonishing how far we've come. We just don't say IAAMOAC often enough. ... We further agree that: - Personal attacks, whether direct or indirect are not welcome. These should be handled off list, and if you disagree with some controversial point, direct the attack at the argument, not the person. - Abusive or inflammatory language is not welcome. - Profanity is not welcome. - Chain letters are not welcome. - Mail bombs to each other are not welcome. - The Listowners have the right to remove someone who does not wish to comport themselves in a manner concordant with our civilization. Thank you, Jo Anne Lady of the List, Bearer of the High Standards, Owner of the 7th Chalice of Betazed etc. ( I still like these titles! Maybe I should get a business card for introductions with these titles on it? ;+)) Note: This list was written using another set of guidelines originally composed by Donna Hrynkiw of Vancouver, British Columbia -- and is used with her permission. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Besides these guidelines, please keep in mind that posting attachments is a no-no, for reasons of bandwidth (some people *do* have to pay per minute, others have finitely-sized inboxes and I'm tired of error
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: ... We don't like straw men or trolls ... There's that we several more times. How many people subscribe to this email list, and how many of them do you speak for when you say we? How did you determine that these people have that view? You're not going to claim that all the lurkers are the silent majority are you? : ) No. I don't really follow you. John-- I don't have current figures, but I'd guess the list has around 200 subscribers, but only 50 regular posters. (Welcome back, Jo Anne!) We call the other 150 lurkers. It looked like you were setting up to argue that the we was only 50/200 of the list, or whatever. Which would not have been a particularly valid argument. ... I do not want anything in particular with regards to what list subscribers believe. ... I note you snipped the etiquette guidelines. : ) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 8:15 AM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: ... Yes, Charlie is someone I respect. His posts are thoughtful, and when he argues, he does it in a fair and constructive way. So, you consider his post to me thoughtful, constructive, and worthy of respect? That one, not so much. But I tend to take a running average. His is still better than yours. : ) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
John Williams wrote: On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Patrick Sweeneyfirefly.ga...@gmail.com wrote: When you reach a point where the suggested solution to ridiculously overpriced health insurance is to take out an insurance policy on your insurance ... perhaps it's a sign that you ought to consider some other system. Actually, charging a high price for health insurance for someone who is almost certain to incur high costs is not ridiculous at all, but rather perfectly rational. That is exactly how insurance should work. For example, consider auto insurance. Drivers who are at higher risk of accidents pay higher premiums. With health insurance, if premiums are not higher for people who are likely to have high expenses, then there is a strong incentive for healthy people to carry no health insurance until they get an expensive condition, and then purchase health insurance. The idea of purchasing insurance against an unexpected expensive event is also perfectly rational. Health status insurance is as reasonable as life insurance. John-- It does strike me as a kludge, though. To continue your example of car insurance, I don't believe that anybody markets insurance against having your car insurance premiums rise dramatically. I'd guess that Patrick is expecting health insurance to have health status insurance already built into it. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:50 PM, dsummersmi...@comcast.netdsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote: I wasn't clear. They don't understand enough about what is being regulated to enforce the laws. The laws are very clear to me; its how one interprets these clear laws in the light of facts that are far too complex for the judge to understand. Then they are poorly written laws. Laws should be kept to a minimum, and when absolutely necessary, should be written in a way that makes them as easy as possible to understand and enforce. ... John-- I'd argue that the patent laws are not that poorly written, the problem is that there's latitude in their interpretation. I think that may be an unavoidable problem. Why don't you attempt to outline a system of patent laws that would NOT have latitude in their interpretation? There are of course trivial examples, such as have no patents, ever. I believe that's worse than the present system. You keep going on about poorly written laws--let's see if you can produce alternatives. (Or do it for some other system of laws. Except the US income tax code-- I'll believe that could be radically simplified.) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
Bruce Bostwick wrote: On Aug 12, 2009, at 10:02 PM, Dan M wrote: No, that is the fault of the laws as written. The problem with the court system is that they do not understand enough to enforce the laws as written. There is also the problem of laws written by people who often fail to anticipate the unintended consequences of the laws they write, compounded by the fact that people still don't approach legislation the way they do software design and testing. I still think version control, requirements management, and user acceptance testing have very definite roles to play in the development of legislation, and I'd still like to see alpha and beta level testing with bug tracking, or a very close analogue, employed in the rollout of new legislation. But I'm kind of a voice in the wilderness on that one .. Bruce-- Hi. That's a clever idea. Some would say that the alpha and beta testing should be done in individual states, and then the final roll out be done at the Federal level. ---David No officer, I didn't subscribe to that law. It's still in beta. ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 4:36 AM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: I'd argue that the patent laws are not that poorly written, the problem is that there's latitude in their interpretation. I think that may be an unavoidable problem. Are you including the patents themselves in patent laws? Because I think that is the real problem in the system. Other than the existence of the system, which I agree, is full of unavoidable problems. Why don't you attempt to outline a system of patent laws that would NOT have latitude in their interpretation? There are of course trivial examples, such as have no patents, ever. I believe that's worse than the present system. You know we disagree on that, right? I stated my belief earlier. Obviously, I don't think that is an efficient use of my time. Short of eliminating the system all together, which I think is unlikely to happen, then the best thing that could happen is that the number of patents granted by drastically reduced. The vast majority of the patents granted are not beneficial to anyone but the patent-holder. The only collective benefit of the patent system is to disseminate information that might otherwise have been kept secret. Only patents consistent with that criterion should be granted. And that is a small fraction of the ones that currently are granted. John-- I'd like you to pick one area pretty much of your choice, and have a detailed discussion of how your ideas would work in practice. You may find that things won't work out as neatly as you hoped. I agree, there have been WAY too many US patents granted, particularly recently. To pick a famous one, Amazon should never have been granted a patent on one-click ordering. There really wasn't anything new there. I doubt that would otherwise have been kept secret is going to be a useful criterion for when a patent should be granted. How do you propose to tell when that's the case? You keep going on about poorly written laws--let's see if you can produce alternatives. I also mentioned too many laws. That is the first problem to attack. If the number were drastically reduced, then perhaps there would be more resources available to carefully craft the remaining laws. Bruce and I have similar views on that -- testing is required. I'd like to see something along the lines of letting people vote to choose which system of laws they are subject to -- instead of electing a politician where your vote might not count, your vote chooses for certain what you get (of course, as a practical matter this is only applicable to a subset of total laws). O.K., please give me an example of ONE well-written law, just so I know what you mean. As for having people pick the laws they'd be under, wouldn't that be a huge mess? Would the police be enforcing the laws, and have to check which system people were under before ticketing/arresting them? Could you be more specific about what you have in mind? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Why not discuss the topic?
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote: Original Message: - From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com ... Just so you know: 1) I saw your similar post about this the first time, several weeks ago 2) We had a similar discussion last year 3) Because of 2) and things that you write like the above quoted paragraph, I am not interested in discussing this with you Actually, I gave a lot more data this timebecause I believe ecconomics is an emperical subject. I looked for data that would support my arguement...checked it with someone who has a lot of old schoolmates who worked for the investment banks, and then wrote. I'm sure you see why I am coming to the conclusion that you'd like to avoid specifics when discussing this topic. I can understand why, data do not support your conclusions. Dan M. ... John-- That is what I'm taking away from this, too. Dan's response seemed on topic to me. ---David In other words, Maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
John Williams wrote: I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points ... Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. ... Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. ... John-- Going by the present state of things, the two bullets above seem to contradict each other. I can see why one might object to some government mandates that insurance must cover certain categories of care. For instance, contraception, mental health treatment, substance abuse treatment, and physical therapy. But if you repeal ALL government mandates, you'll wind up with lots of policies that appear to cover everything a consumer might want, but are actually full of loopholes so that the insurer need not pay for standard treatments. That seems the opposite of transparency. Comments? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Why not discuss the topic?
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: That is what I'm taking away from this, too. Dan's response seemed on topic to me. If you would like to discuss any specific points from the last time this came up (late last year), I would be glad to discuss. Please quote the specific points from the last discussion that you think I did not address, and we can discuss. John-- Er... Actually, I probably had you killfiled then. I've removed it since, obviously. ---David Maybe YOU could repost? ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
John Williams wrote: #1 patent-related #2 patent-related #4 IP-related #5 patent-related Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system. Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the way you think it would, since there's latitude for people to game the system. How would a non-government-run patent system (whatever it was) not be just as flawed? Or better, how would you design a patent system that did not give a significant advantage to the side with the best lawyers? (Feel free to propose changes to the legal system too, if you want.) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: John Williams wrote: Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. ... Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. ... Going by the present state of things, the two bullets above seem to contradict each other. I can see why one might object to some government mandates that insurance must cover certain categories of care. For instance, contraception, mental health treatment, substance abuse treatment, and physical therapy. But if you repeal ALL government mandates, you'll wind up with lots of policies that appear to cover everything a consumer might want, but are actually full of loopholes so that the insurer need not pay for standard treatments. That seems the opposite of transparency. Comments? I don't see how your conclusion (2nd paragraph) follows from your stated assumptions. Are you making an unstated assumption that many consumers will purchase policies that are full of loopholes? If so, why would they? John-- Sorry, I thought that part was obvious. How on earth is the average consumer going to check that their policy is NOT full of loopholes? They'd need a LOT of legal and medical expertise. Or are you proposing that they just avoid ALL policies that don't clearly state what's covered? Could you PRODUCE a sample of a policy where it WOULD be easy for the average consumer to check what's covered? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brownla...@bearcircle.net wrote: John Williams wrote: There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not focus on redistributing wealth from people in the US to the people in the world who have far worse health care than those in the US? Straw man. I understand why that question makes you uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable too. It is extremely difficult to answer in a way consistent with the ethics of many people. Still, I am interested to hear how others who advocate more and larger wealth-redistribution policies might answer. John-- This is an old kind of argument that is usually used to support not taking action. It asks How can you worry about A, when B is so much worse? My answer is, Why we'll work on both problem A and problem B at the same time. In this context, that means spending some resources inside the country, and sending some outside to help problems there. I support some humanitarian aid abroad, and feel that most people do. We may well disagree about how MUCH aid to send to the Third World, of course. ---David (I've also seen the same argument used against doing anything to improve animal rights.) ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
Trent Shipley wrote: David Hobby wrote: John Williams wrote: ... Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system. Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the way you think it would, since there's latitude for people to game the system. How would a non-government-run patent system (whatever it was) not be just as flawed? Or better, how would you design a patent system that did not give a significant advantage to the side with the best lawyers? (Feel free to propose changes to the legal system too, if you want.) ---David You could go with the radical Linuxers and Pirate Party types and decide that intellectual property is an anachronism that should be put out of its misery. Trent-- Hi. You're talking about intellectual property in general. This includes copyright. I could agree that copyright should be pretty much abolished. Patents are different, though. The problem is that without patents, companies tend to just keep innovations secret. It's pointless to keep secret the kinds of things you can copyright--the whole point is that you WANT people to see them. I don't have examples, but I'd argue that without patents A LOT of recent advances would have been kept as trade secrets. And that because of that, the advances that built on them would not yet have happened. There's a large economic cost to Society at large when most advances are kept secret. It stifles progress. That's why the patent system was set up in the first place, to foster innovation. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
John Williams wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobbyhob...@newpaltz.edu wrote: How on earth is the average consumer going to check that their policy is NOT full of loopholes? ... As for how a consumer can decide what product or service is best for them, I can think of several non-government possibilites: ... 4) Consumer magazines or websites If you think a government solution is important, why not make it non-coercive? Have a government-funded version of _Consumer Reports_ for every product or service that you think needs it. Consumers could access the ratings and reviews from a government-run website, with an option to get printed material for those who have no internet access or nearby library with internet access. Hey, a constructive suggestion. Good. The government really doesn't have to do more than rate policies in order for consumers to get enough information. I agree, that would solve the problem with policies that appeared to cover things and actually didn't. There are other reasons to have universal health care, but there would have to be an element of coercion to the implementation. You seem to be against even taxation, as a matter of principle. Could you PRODUCE a sample of a policy where it WOULD be easy for the average consumer to check what's covered? Probably, but... I still doubt you could, and encourage you to try. You'd probably have to use phrases equivalent to experimental procedure, usual and customary, and so on. These would soon acquire technical meanings that the average consumer would be unaware of. The devil is in fact, in the details. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Br!n: Libertarian Morality--Up with good King John, down with Robin Hood.
Trent Shipley wrote: ... The moral principle that taxes are theft suffers from a similar limitation. Logically taxes ARE theft. Newspeak! I stand behind this. When theft is understood as any taking, except as punishment, then taxes are logically a form of theft. It's a logical singularity, but its still logical. It is not reasonable however. Trent-- No, taxes are not theft. They are user fees, imposed for the privilege of being a citizen and/or being in the country. Is everybody happy now? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Libertarian Morality--Up with good King John, down with Robin Hood.
Trent Shipley wrote: I wrote a suggestion to my Arizona State legislators about de-funding the state universities in favor of tuition vouchers. ... Dear Senator Linda Gray, Representative Doug Quelland, and Representative Jim Weiers, ... “Be it resolved that the mission of Arizona's public institutions of higher education is to educate undergraduates and train graduates for essential professions.” Trent-- Hi. It's interesting. I wonder about the last bit, though. How does one tell whether or not a profession is essential? (I can certainly name some that I feel are NOT essential, but let's get beyond our personal biases.) One answer may be a profession is essential as long as people in it manage to find work. Markets certainly don't solve everything, but may be giving information about the relative importance of various kinds of work. : ) ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: Libertarian Morality--Up with good King John, down with Robin Hood.
Trent Shipley wrote: Hi. It's interesting. I wonder about the last bit, though. How does one tell whether or not a profession is essential? (I can certainly name some that I feel are NOT essential, but let's get beyond our personal biases.) One answer may be a profession is essential as long as people in it manage to find work. Markets certainly don't solve everything, but may be giving information about the relative importance of various kinds of work. : ) ---David Taxpayers tend to see the Universities exclusive mission as training (not educating) their kids to get a certificate that will let the kid be middle class. In short we pay taxes for undergraduate education NOT research or grad school. I imagined the state department of education defining some professional level degrees like Medicine, Master of Nursing, M.Ed. and D.Ed., Masters of Engineering, MSW as essential for Arizona. Others, like Law, MFA, or a PhD in Astronomy would be elective and unsubsidized. Some, notably the profitable hard sciences, like geology, biology, or chemistry, might qualify for partial subsidy. Trent-- So you're not big on the wisdom of the market? Your post did mention libertarians a bit, but I was unclear where you stood. Why should profitable hard sciences need a subsidy? I'd hope that the state money would go towards fields that we worthwhile yet underfunded. : ) My daughter is in law school, and is paying for it with a pile of student loans. It's reasonable that she not be subsidized, since she'll (hopefully) wind up making enough to pay back the loans. We're in New York state, which has fairly high barriers to entering K-12 teaching. The teachers who come to my school to get the Master's they need for permanent certification tend to be making enough money that they don't need subsidies. As for subsidizing a Masters in Social Work, why not just pay social workers a bit more? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On 'Incomprehesibility'
William T Goodall wrote: On 1 Aug 2009, at 22:14, David Hobby wrote: William T Goodall wrote: ... NTSC vs. PAL: Not a fair criticism. That mess was created a LONG time ago, and was also a problem with VHS tapes. (A bigger problem, since the players were analog.) Even with HD the frame rate (50Hz/60hz) is still different between NTSC and PAL. (NTSC and PAL have nothing to do with HD being analog formats but the 50/60 Hz is the same so the labels have stuck). My home theatre DVD upscaling DVD player autoconverts these depending whether I have the output set to NTSC or PAL. Since my TV can sync at either 50Hz or 60Hz HD I have to change this setting to watch PAL/NTSC DVDs in native format and avoid conversion which is a lossy process. The others you list: It's still possible to just go with the defaults there. If the default is stereo I lose the benefit of my 800W 5.1 speaker system :) And if there is a Dolby and a DTS soundtrack I have to manually select the (better) DTS soundtrack. ... William-- The above seem to be minor tweaks to get the best output? The original complaint was about DVD vs VHS, so we might have wandered from the topic... ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: On 'Incomprehesibility'
William T Goodall wrote: On 1 Aug 2009, at 09:12, KZK wrote: Dr. Brin Wrote: ... True, copyright piracy is (generally) bad. But the bloody inconvenience and blithering incomprehensibility of simply using a modern DVD player to watch a film that you already own - let alone ... I don't get why you would consider this to be so. DVD's are very simple: You put a disc (made the same way a CD is for 1 layer discs) into a device and close the door. The machine plays the Disc. This usually involves a non-bypassable FBI warning ... DVD region codes. NTSC or PAL? Stereo or 5.1? Dolby or DTS? Component or HDMI? Upscale to 720P or 1080i? William-- I agree with you on some, and want to add an item. DVD region codes: Not in the consumer's interest. I wound up buying my wife a multiregion DVD player, just so we could watch German DVDs. NTSC vs. PAL: Not a fair criticism. That mess was created a LONG time ago, and was also a problem with VHS tapes. (A bigger problem, since the players were analog.) The others you list: It's still possible to just go with the defaults there. That non-bypassable FBI and/or Interpol warning: This is actually a loss for DVDs. With VHS, you could ALWAYS fast-forward. Why aren't there hacks to skip the start-up warnings on DVDs? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Screwy Irregulars Question
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: I have a new lawn mower. According to the instructions I need to change the oil before using the mower again (the instructions say to change the oil after the first 5 hours of operation, which is about how long it ran mowing the whole yard twice, which is what I've done with it up to now). The drain plug is in the form of a screw with a square-shaped recess in the outer end. I know that the tool used on such a screw with a hexagonal recess is sometimes referred to as an Allen wrench. Does anyone know what the proper name is for a tool that fits a screw or bolt with a square-shaped recess in the head, so I know what to look/ask for? ... Ronn-- Not me. I tend to confidently go into the store and say that I need something like a hex key but for a square hole. My sense is that the terminology is not very standardized, anyway. It could be that the driver for a socket set, or the right sized flat-bladed screwdriver would to the job... ---David Screwy Irregular, Maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Uplift Universe question....
Chaton Jean-Marc wrote: * Alberto Monteiro [Fri, 08/05/2009 at 14:18 -0200] Dogs, elephants, and a few other animals are explicitly mentioned as pre-sapient candidates that Earthclan is forbidden to uplift - two clients are too much for even an elder galactic race. Is it my faulting memory, I've read somewhere (Sundiver ??) that humans tried to uplift dogs but it failed because dogs turned into contemplation and melancholy. Or my brain is making connexions with some other work. Chaton-- I think there was a little fragment of a parody of the Uplift Books, by David himself, called Gorilla my dreams. (Yes, there were puns.) This seems to be a link: http://baens-universe.com/articles/Gorilla_My_Dreams And here's the quote I remembered: Next came the habitat of talking neo-dogs, a breed that had been under modification for centuries, and recently, at long last, had mastered the deep mystery of door knobs, only to discover that the devices were being replaced in most homes by galactic technology psionic clasps. That tragic irony appeared to have broken the species' collective spirit. Mostly, neo-dogs just lay around nowadays, whining, licking themselves, and snapping vicious, Chestertonian insults at the ankles of anyone who unwarily passed close. Is this it, or were you thinking of something else? ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: New Uplift Universe question....
Dan M wrote: I've got a question that I think about when I think of Brin. He hasn't written a regular novel since Kiln People, which was about 6 years ago...and his last graphic novel was a year after that. Is it fair to say that, while he will continue to write short fiction, the probability of a new novel is exponentially decaying, or will there be new novels? ... Dan-- Not that I've read it yet, but your sense is that _Sky Horizon_ doesn't count? http://www.amazon.com/dp/159606109X?tag=davidbrinsoff-20camp=14573creative=327641linkCode=as1creativeASIN=159606109Xadid=18VPX1PC1EP4RMZ75NCZ; Once we got our definitions straight, I'd be prepared to bet there'll be a new (sole-author, adult) novel within 5 years. ---David ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: New Uplift Universe question....
Charlie Bell wrote: ... We could find out through the magic of actually asking someone who might know. Say, himself? :) Cheater! ---David Gorilla my dreams, maru ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
