Re: [Brin-l] Attack Iraq, Alone if We Must
No. There is a point. Killing lots of people because they are enemies of the regime is state terrorism. It qualifies as simple mass murder. Killing lots of people, or even forcibly displacing them, because they are Bosnians or Croats, not Serbs is at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide. This (clearly) rises to the level of a Crime Against Humanity. Saddam Hussein's regieme has committed massacres against Kurds and Shi'i Arabs in the South. To the best of my knowledge these do not seemed to be part of a program of ethnic depopulation. Thus, no crime of ethic cleansing or genocide _per se_. However, the government does face a strategic problem with southern marshland. My several-year-old best knowledge was that it planned to drain the southern swamps. This will directly eliminate the life-way of rural southern Shi'i groups called Marsh Arabs. This will eliminate an ancient way of life; thus, it constitutes ethnocide. However, the economic and military arguments for getting rid of the marshlands are substantial. Any Iraqi regime might adopt a similar policy. On Thursday 19 September 2002 09:44 pm, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 09:23 PM 9/19/2002 -0700 Doug wrote: Could someone point me in the direction of an article that details how Hussein is presently pursuing a policy of genocide similar to that pursued by Milosevic? Two questions: 1) Do you consider US actions against Milosevic to have been justified? 2) Do you support the US having made said actions against Milosevic? Thanks. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Techno Dance Itch
Last week, being then employed and interested in social activity and exercise, I took a free dance lesson from an acquaintance. The main thing I learned was that music is a scarce and precious commodity in a dance studio. You can only put one, or at most two, sets of music over the loud speaker systems. Personal systems are *too* personal. A couple cannot coordinate walkmen or even mp3 players. WANTED: a wireless audio system for very local broadcasting -- to be used in dance studios and dance departments. (Ideally, somebody already makes this. If not, have Motorola give me a call.) TARGET MARKETS: Dance studios and dance departments or schools. Gymnastics coaches. Figure skaters and coaches. Personal or small-group trainers who teach rythm aerobics. Other markets for mini-cast audio. COMPONENTS: Information Appliances (2): Personal headset unit with compact receiver and powersource. Compact remote control unit. Base unit (3 sub-components) To be housed on PC, eventual migration to central info-appliance possible. Wireless LAN. Broadcaster software. == RECIEVER UNIT (RU): Low bulk, low weight. Useable by serious amatuer and professional dancers, gymnists, aerobicizers, and otherwise friendly to atheletes and interpretive artists who need access to audio mini-cast to a small group. Note that when I discussed this with my dancer friend she immediately thought it would be good for personal use. Thus, a version of the reciever appliance will be able to store audio in non-volitile memory. It will include the basic command functions listed below. (That is, in addition to participating as a reciever in a LAN mini-cast, some models of reciever unit *must* act exactly like current Mp3 players.) Reciver units shall have unique serial numbers (eg. MAC addresses) that can be aliased by the broadcaster software. SNs will be used to assign reciever appliances to broadcast groups. *THE* reason for the mini-cast system is to provide synchronized music to small groups in areas with high audio congestion. Therefore, users must be able to configure RUs into mini-cast reception groups. All recivers in a mini-cast group will get the same audio broadcast. Therefore, system implementers will be *very* cautious about using cached data when as RU is a member of a reception group that contains any other RUs as members. An RU cannot be restricted by line-of-sight. COMPACT REMOTE CONTROL UNIT (CRCU): Used by coaches and instructors, the remote control units will provide basic music control functions such as select song, make bookmark, goto bookmark, pause, stop, fast forward, reverse, and--never to be forgotten--play. The designer will *NOT* put excess function into the CRCU. Each button shall have one, and *ONLY* one function. The RU and CRCU may be integrated into a single assembly. It is marginally desirable that a palm-top augmented with appropriate software and hardware be able te emulate a CRCU. A CRCU cannot be restricted by line-of-sight. BASE UNIT (XMITer): Early versions of the base unit will be implemented from an Intel or Apple computer using mircrowave or RF wireless LAN (eg wireless ethernet). Line-of-sight technologies are inappropriate for this application. The wireless LAN must have sufficient bandwidth to support seamless, high quality broadcast of at least 5 simultaneous audio programs. The ability to add wireless LANs on slightly different frequencies, thereby expanding the system, is moderately desirable. Software will be included to manage the system (the App). The Application Administrator will be able to control storage and access to copywritten material, user access, where data is stored, and so on. Approprate interfaces will be provided to the App Admin. A critical job for the App Admin will be naming RU and CRCU appliances. *NOTE* that the App Admin is likely to be one or several small business owners with limited legal or computer expertise. Power users (coaches, instructors, and so on) will be designated by the app admin. They will need to manage their own music, access studio owned music, assemble programming for a given class, and so on. Most importantly, power users will need to define a group of RUs that will receive a mini-cast. They will also need to designate the CRCU that will control the mini-cast. The only domain expert consulted thus far seemed very interested in a personal RU with storage capablity. While the intital prototype may require aliasing a fixed set of RUs and CRCUs, the system will be designed to add and drop RU and CRCU appliances _ad hoc_. Adding new RU-CRCU appliances and designating a group should be fast--taking under five minutes for initial production versions of the system. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Techno Dance Itch
Yeah. Well that's not quite _it_. The crucial feature is being able to *group* the receiver appliances into groups. What I observed was a single large dance floor. A divider effectively separated the floor into two rooms. For better or worse neither room was acoustically isolated. Each room had its own music played through loud-speakers. Room one had a class--that is one teacher with many students. Room two had a championship couple and their coach and three private instructors, each with a student. Music was played at a moderate volume because students and teachers needed to talk. Furthermore, other business needs might require verbal communication. In short, they had a maximum supply of two audio channels for music, they had demand for five channels of music. Furthermore, each coach or instructor needed to control the music so they and their student(s) got a synchronized musical program. Proposed Class in room one: 1 -- Audio 1: Loudspeaker 1.1 1.2 ... 1.n Sessions in room two (currently all listen to the same music): 2a -- Audio 2: mini-cast 2a.1 2a.2 2b -- Audio 3:mini-cast 2b.1 2c -- Audio 4:mini-cast 2c.1 2d -- Audio 5:mini-cast 2d.1 Plus my friend _might_ want to practice by herself, but at the studio, and using her mini-cast receiver. 2e -- Audio 6:mini-cast OR audio stored in reciver unit. On Wednesday 04 December 2002 11:37 pm, Russell Chapman wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: WANTED: a wireless audio system for very local broadcasting -- to be used in dance studios and dance departments. (Ideally, somebody already makes this. If not, have Motorola give me a call.) U - ever watched a band in concert recently? It is quite common for the band members, roadies and sound and lighting techs to all have an interconnected set of short range wireless headphones, some with mikes and some without. Well, it is here, anyway Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: rain
For a first order approximation you would throw away topography as irrelevant (after all, it starts at only 30% and gets smaller as you add water) and you would treat the Earth as a proper sphere using distance from the center of the sphere to mean sea level as diameter. Assume a constant rainfall, not adujsted for the increasing size of the sphere as the ocean gets deeper. Say, 1 inch per hour, that's a nice hard rain so 2 feet a day. It'll take a while to reach 5 miles. However, if you say wanted to know if it would fit into, say 40 days and 40 nights, you would just assume that it rained 5 miles/40 days, that is 1mile/8days, or 1/8 mile per day. It would, indeed, require a miracle. However, the miracle needed to produce such a global deluge would pale beside the erosive effects of so much precipitation. Where *DID* all that topsoil come from? On Thursday 05 December 2002 04:01 am, The Fool wrote: Suppose you wanted to calculate the time it would take an even consistent rainfall over the entire surface of the earth to raise the sea level above the level of Mt. Everest (+5 miles or so), what would you need to know about rainfall, volume of the earth, topography of the earth, etc. to make a good first order approximation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Galactic Moderates
On Friday 06 December 2002 08:48 pm, Jim Sharkey wrote: William Taylor wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Debbi Galactic Moderate? Maru See, that's your problem. No one in the Four Galaxies listens to the moderates, you should know that! :-) Moderates? Moderates don't exist. Any race that shows the signs of being proto moderate has their wallets uplifted by a Synthian trader selling them the Galactic equivalence of the Brooklyn Bridge. I dunno. The Kanten/Linten clan hasn't bought any bridges yet. And I suppose the Tymbrimi could be considered moderate, if for no other reason than they don't have a desire to kill and/or subjugate every other race in the Galaxies. :-) And who's going to trick them into anything? Jim The Tymbrimi are on the Looney Left of Galactic politics. They scare the @#$% out of moderates. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Galactic Moderates
No. In the Fi.. er Four Galaxies a Greepeace style doctrine is solidly conservative--in no way reactionary. Most Thennanin would be encouraged and hopeful that even a t-i-n-y fraction of Human Wolflings would join a highly responsible organization like Greepeace. Tymbrimi -- well they're the sort of leftist crazies who would do something insane like inventing and dropping a dirty fission bomb to save a meagre millions of lives. (Of course, if you are Tymbrimi you drop the bomb on Hiroshima with a clear warning in Japanese: Property of USA: DANGER DO NOT OPEN! As long as the box remains unopened, the bomb will not explode.) On Friday 06 December 2002 10:45 pm, Jim Sharkey wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: The Tymbrimi are on the Looney Left of Galactic politics. They scare the @#$% out of moderates. So they're like Greenpeace, only without the flannel and Birkenstocks, then? ;) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Galactic Moderates
(Replying to own post, bad sign.) The problem was with the Greenpeace example. Ecology is just way more important to Galactics than to most of us. A better example might be: Every Tymbrimi is a card-carrying member of the ACLU. They would join a civil-liberties group to the left of the ACLU if they could find one. They all favor socialized medicine. Worse, they favor egalitarian distribution of O-2 Galactic resources and cooperation with other orders of life. They are unpredictable. Worst of all, they have no respect for station, authority, or tradition. They love nothing more than seeing some venerable institute official get a pie in the face. They love seeing dignitaries of the most powerful clans trip on the red capets that welcome them on state visits. They do not love their Civilization with unqualified patiotic devotion and they refuse to quietly emmigrate to somewhere else. They should be lined up and shot for the traitors to Civilization that they are--except that exterminating them would be even worse for Civilization than letting them and their irrelevant minority of mostly-harmless looney-leftists nip the Civilized breast that feeds their eternally immature and ungrateful species. On Friday 06 December 2002 11:40 pm, Trent Shipley wrote: No. In the Fi.. er Four Galaxies a Greepeace style doctrine is solidly conservative--in no way reactionary. Most Thennanin would be encouraged and hopeful that even a t-i-n-y fraction of Human Wolflings would join a highly responsible organization like Greepeace. Tymbrimi -- well they're the sort of leftist crazies who would do something insane like inventing and dropping a dirty fission bomb to save a meagre millions of lives. (Of course, if you are Tymbrimi you drop the bomb on Hiroshima with a clear warning in Japanese: Property of USA: DANGER DO NOT OPEN! As long as the box remains unopened, the bomb will not explode.) On Friday 06 December 2002 10:45 pm, Jim Sharkey wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: The Tymbrimi are on the Looney Left of Galactic politics. They scare the @#$% out of moderates. So they're like Greenpeace, only without the flannel and Birkenstocks, then? ;) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [LINK] What Science Fiction Author Are You?
On Friday 13 December 2002 06:34 pm, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Stefan Jones posted this link on another board to which I subscribe: http://gning.org/skiffy.html In light of recent discussions, I thought this result was interesting: You are: John Brunner His best known works are dystopias -- vivid realizations of the futures we want to avoid. (Sorry about the lack of suitable pictures.) --As if it surprises anybody. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: How much do people care about their own health? (Was:dorepublicans/politicians care...)
I do not believe that technology strongly influences moral norms. Psychiatrists and psychologists did not de-medicalize homosexuality or inversion until the 1970's (I think). If we could have played with our genes in 1950 or 1900 we would have targeted the disease of sexual inversion. Many Western countries played with eugenics before NAZI over-the-top crimes made primative gene manipulation through selective sterilization unfashionable. Prior to the end of World War Two eugenics was progressive! You are right. Homosexuality won't be on the gene-cutting-room floor, though some parents might opt to do so privately. Nevertheless, I guarantee that we we start playing with our own genes we *will* make some mistakes that are just as bad as a program to eliminate sexual inversion. These disasterous interventions will be the result of the best scientific, rational progressive thought of Western Civilizations best and brightest. (Humans *will* play with their own genes. It is our nature. All higher primates like to play with their own shit.) AFAIK, Homosexuality and Low/High IQ's are not recognized in the medical community as diseases. Mental retardation is, but I'm not sure the causes are usually genetic. Isn't the brain damage most frequently caused by oxygen deprivation as a result of drug/alcohol use during pregnancy or complications during birth? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Segway scooter hot seller online
On Saturday 28 December 2002 07:14 pm, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2002 at 08:16:59PM -0600, Robert Seeberger wrote: I would imagine the Segways internal gyroscopic system would make it *hard* to trip. Want to bet? It it is going 10mph and hits an unmoving object at the right height, it is going to pitch forward quite a bit, no question. At 10 mph it won't matter how well the personal mobility thingy is going. Induce any sudden acceleration and any unsecured mass is going to continue on its last trajectory. Opinion: Given: It is right and proper that the disabled be able to use powered personal mobility devices in pedestrian traffic. Resolved: Therefore, in the interest of equity, anyone should be able to use powered personal mobility devices wherever they are allowed. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Can pop music make the Arab world love us?
Arab pop-music and Quran recitation are definitely prominent in the audioscapes of Cairo and Amman. On Sunday 2003-01-12 13:17, Robert Seeberger wrote: http://slate.msn.com/id/2076531/ Imagine it were possible to stem the rising tide of anti-Americanism in the Arab world. (I like to think this is the kind of speculative, optimistic sentence tossed around all the time at the State Department.) You would want to target an audience of middle-class and working-class men between the ages of 18 to 30-the demographic most likely to attack Americans and American property. To that end, the State Department recently announced that it is exporting an anthology of American writers, in the hopes that this will persuade Arabs that the American experience is more varied, and less evil, than the state-controlled Arab media say it is. Regardless of whether you buy into this kind of cultural marketing, it's clear that the State Department chose the wrong medium. American book publishers can tell you that American men between 18 and 30 don't read a lot of books. The Arab street reads even fewer-just one book, mostly: the Quran. The United States should have followed the lead of Arab governments, which know that music is the region's most powerful form of expression. That's why they use it for propaganda-and also why they ban so much of it. The classic example of this is Umm Kulthoum, the voice of Egypt, the diva of the Arab world. In 1975, her funeral, legend has it, drew an even larger crowd than Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser's in 1970. Nasser's rise to power coincided with a golden age of Egyptian music, and in Umm Kulthoum he found a willing participant in his campaign to promote the image of a charismatic nation on the rise. She recorded several nationalistic songs, like Watani Habibi Watani el Akbar (My Beloved Nation, the Greatest Nation) (scroll to the bottom of the page, and listen to the second clip), which are still widely known in Egypt-as are a host of singer Abdel Halim Hafez's patriotic numbers, like Ya Gamal, Ya Habib El Malayeen (Gamal, Beloved of Millions) and Ehna El Shaaab (We Are the People). Of course, few Arab leaders have enjoyed as loyal a supporting chorus as Nasser did. Many have had to check the efforts of musicians not in sympathy with their policies. Sayyid Darwish is more or less the founder of the engaged, or oppositional-the sense is like the French intellectuals' sense of engagé-school of Arab music. His Quom Ya Masry (O Egyptian Arise) is one of the earliest examples of music used to wage cultural war against an unpopular government; it served as one of the forces driving the 1919 revolution. The song was banned at the time, but today every Egyptian knows it by heart. Marcel Khalife, a Lebanese musician, is the contemporary leader of the engaged school. His albums are officially unavailable in Egypt; many of his songs are powerful and subtle odes on the Palestinian issue, which the government fears will further flame resentment against Israel. Khalife's very beautiful Ana Yussef Ya Abi (Oh Father, I Am Joseph), from a poem by the Palestinian writer Mahmoud Darwish, takes the biblical-and Quranic-story of Joseph's treatment at the hands of his brothers as a metaphor for Palestinian suffering. Curiously, while the Egyptian censors banned Khalife's quiet songs of protest, they more or less ignored Egyptian singer's Shaaban Abdel Rahim's recent hit, Bakrah Israel (I Hate Israel). The censors probably aren't making any genuine aesthetic discrimination here; they tend to distinguish simply between what's merely embarrassing and what is truly threatening to the Egyptian government. Hence Rahim's latest song, in praise of Osama Bin Laden (with its catchy chorus, Bin Bin Bin Bin Bin Bin Laden), was removed from the airwaves. After all, Bin Laden and other hard-core Islamists haven't targeted only America but also Arab regimes that cooperate with America. Evidently, the Mubarak regime acted so quickly and forcefully that Rahim, a commercially and politically savvy buffoon, denies that he ever made any song about Bin Laden. This has got to constitute one of the more compelling chapters in the psycho-biography of the Arab street. It's a testament to the power of a police state that the song now remains only in the memory of the masses-but the fact that it remains suggests that the memory of the masses may be yet more powerful. This only makes the goal of reaching the Arab world's frustrated unemployed (and underemployed) young men all the more important. Unfortunately, this is where the State Department miscalculated again. The people most likely to read a book about America are the Arab world's well-educated professional and intellectual elite, who-unlike the underclasses-already have extensive experience of America and the rest of the West. Not only are they the least likely to change their minds, they're the ones,
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
On Tuesday 2003-01-14 21:31, Jim Sharkey wrote: Jon Gabriel wrote I would think that would depend on whether or not the Kiqui go well with saffron flavored rice and Episiarch gravy... They're not recognized sapients, after all, so they might just be good eatin'. I bet they can pass whatever tests are necessary for pre-sentience. They have a social order and a language, that ought to qualify them, I'd think. OTOH, you never know. A little Kiqui, some butter, a bit of lemon, a dash of white wine and some shitake mushrooms sauteed over medium heat might hit the spot...I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Jim Hmm. It might be like eating fugu. When I eat Kiqui much of the elation comes from not knowing if the Chef got rid of enough heavy metals and poisons--the other half comes from the poisons and heavy metals. A Paha ab-Soro food critic. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Hamsters. They have very dexterous (if somewhat small) hands, the *love* exploring (my wife and I can put our hamster in her hamster ball and she'll run around the house for hours), and they are quite smart and strong, as evidenced by their ability to escape from any cage. Ours escaped twice in the first two weeks we had her, from two different kinds of cage. She's in a fish tank now, and we've had to put some heavy books on top of the cover screen (while leaving enough space for adequate ventilation), and we've *still* caught her almost halfway out. Also, their cheek pouches (typically used to store and transport food), along with their escape-artist talents, make them perfectly suited to espionage... Hamsters should definitely be candidates for Uplift. :-) Hamptaro! The Terragen Confederation's cutest, most leathaly sweet, Secret Agent No. No! NO! No Hampster Uplift, no way. Its just t inhumane. Today another high-level Soro Military Officer died of mysterious sugar poisoning in the Calafia theatre. Terragen tricks suspected. No sapient should have to die of Hampster induced sacharine poisoning. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Nation States -- Sovereign States
You give Trent website with scripting and database access..and maybe nice domain name, Trent give you SovereignStates knock-off of Nation States game with way more detailed political-economic simulation. Many fun dials and toggles for administrators. Make GPL code! Hokey-dokey! nifty deal! you like! no? Trent Our Minister of Financial Affairs has expressed curiosity about how much currency units the Trent organisation of the Confederacy of Foo intends to charge for its proposed SovereignStates game. (Jeroen) = As I am currently unemployed, programming, etc. are on offer for free. Any resulting code would be GPL, so it would stay free. This, of course, assumes some generous patron who provides: -- Website -- Script support (PHP, VB.NET on ASP, etc.) -- Database support The offer is good until I get bored, get frustrated, get a job, ... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Space Shuttle Must Be Stopped
Aerospace has hit a technological wall, as far as I can see. 30 year old designs are still competitive in the commercial market head to head against modern designs. Contrast that with computers. I do not think this is true. There are certainly some vernerable designs for airframes--for example the DC3. Nevertheless, aerospace continues to make strides in propulsion, avionics, materials, and the design process itself. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: NASA Historical budget
Have allocations changed? I can see the 1960's budgets going to Cold War theatre. There are (at least) three big parts to the NASA budget: 1) Manned space flight. 2) Unmanned solar-system exploration. 3) Basic Research (my favorite). Eg: fluid-dynamics, propulsion for civil aviation, and unmanned ground-traversing vehicles. (Still, I say we rape NASAs budget and put it all ... er, a couple of billion into the sexy and exciting humanities and social sciences! [Psychohistory: the ultimate clandestine weapon.]) On Sunday 2003-02-02 22:51, Dan Minette wrote: I did a bit of research, and have come up with the following numbers for NASA's budget decade by decade. For the '60s, I had to do a bit of estimation for '60 and 61, but the number shouldn't be too far off, because that was before the NASA budget really took off. In constant 2002 dollars the budget was 60s 187 billion 70s 127 billion 80s 122 billion 90s 163 billion Think of what was accomplished in the '60s compared to the '80s and '90s put together. It isn't just the money. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bible scholars rejoice at signs
On Saturday 2003-03-15 09:54, Julia Thompson wrote: The Fool wrote: More problematic is the fatalistic worldview of apocalyptic thinking, Hill said. Many who obsess about the end of the world fail to enjoy the life they have or reach out to help others in an effort to improve society, he said. They become morally complacent. This is illustrated by a bumper sticker seen on cars of a few Rapturists: In case of the Rapture, this car will be driverless That's a hell of a thing to inflict on everyone else you're in traffic with! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Mennonite theolgy implies that anyone who expects to be among those Raputured is in grave danger of not being raptured due to egregious pride That is, those who are certain that they are among the elect, aren't. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Stuff for the Gurps Uplift Site.
On Tuesday 2003-06-17 12:37, d.brin wrote: Dear Trent, I am sorry to hear about the employment situation. Wish I could help. I can well understand wanting to move on to other interests. Is A4P stored and available online? If so, would you like to allow gamers access to its trove of ideas? If it is NOT online, you could ask among the Brin-L folks if someone would like to host it. It is currently online and available. If you have it at a specific site, would you be willing: 1) for Stefan to link to it from the GURPS UPLIFT site? I think SeJ already has links pointing to the A4P Encyclopedia. 2) to write a brief introduction explaining your role in developing the A4P, its history and possible use for gamers? This does not sound too onerous. 3) you could add a note welcoming new people to contribute changes and report adventures and to help take over the project. You could then sit back and wait to see if gamers want to use the material you worked so hard (and well!) to produce. People are already encouraged to add to the Encyclopedia, although there haven't been any major submissions for a while. I have yet to get around to adding some minor material like William Taylor's ongoing Alvin humor or short Galactic Aphorisms that I once solicited. We would need a disclaimer stating that while David Brin has read and enjoyed many of the sections, the A4P is not an 'official' part of the Uplift Universe. This already exists, but evidently could be more prominent. And yes, Stefan should cite you and Stewart Blandon and Alberto and others for helping over the years to develop troves of fine material. david b If you want the A4P encyclopedia, it is yours. As you might have noticed, I have lost interest. (I am thinking about starting work on sites dedicated to one or two universes that I originaly developed for role-playing.) If you decide to take it there are some areas I might continue to interest me. -- Converting it to a database-driven web site! Since I am chronically unemployed I've never had the resources to do it 'right.' -- Finishing framed stories about first contact. -- Finishing a set of stories about the Brothers of the Night. -- Extenting the Thennanin family into the grand-child and great-grand child generations. -- Starting work on the Lesh And occasional miscellaneous contributions, of course. On Monday 2003-06-16 17:03, d.brin wrote: Hi Folks. As you may have heard, Steve Jackson Games is about to re-release GURPS UPLIFT the game based on my universe, after many years being out of print (and bid up to $$$ on eBay!) The new version will be much longer and with many new features. Perhaps Stefan will be willing to come online and describe it further. Members of Brin-L who order copies can get theirs with a bookplate(!) signed by all three of us, Brin, Jones Jackson! Along the way, Stefan is setting up a web site with additional Uplift material. I have already shown him the Heaven's Reach glossary that Alberto wrote. There is also a List of characters of the Uplift Universe. Alberto, did you do that one too? I think the character list was originally from Stewart Blandon. In any event, if any of you have items that you might want to either offer to Stefan for the G.U. site, or offer for him to link to, could you please contact him? The main purpose will be to help gamers to enjoy the universe even more. Thanks and best to you all. With cordial regards, David Brin www.davidbrin.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Great Library URL?
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~tshipley/Encyclopedia Since I am looking to get the Encyclopedia a new Publisher/Editor-in-Chief the URL will change in the near future, I hope. On Wednesday 2003-06-18 04:56, Erik Reuter wrote: What is the current URL for Trent's Great Library of the Five Galaxies? http://personal.vineyard.net/robinson/library/welcome.htm gives a message that it moved to http://www.islanderis.net/users/timbo/library but that URL does not work at all. -- Trent Shipley phone:602.375.8683 cell:602.413.9837 mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.u.arizona.edu/~tshipley ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Trickle down vrs trickle up economics
On Sunday 2003-07-20 14:36, Robert J. Chassell wrote: trickle down: more money to the rich The argument for giving more money to the rich than to the poor is that the rich save more. (That is to say, they save a higher portion of additional income; in jargon, their marginal propensity to save is higher.) After buying big boats, big houses, and jet airplanes, there is not so much left to buy; so the money must be saved. This has been observed empirically. (I cannot remember the numbers.) Saved money can be placed into non-productive investments like cash, or into investments like land, or into investments like factories. If the latter, factories are built, employing people to building and being staffed after being built, also employing people. The employed people receive enough money to buy a portion of what the factory puts out. The general presumption is that the latter occurs, and that the investment takes place at home, not in another country. The dangers are that the rich follow the other two ways of handling money: In the Great Depression, the rich figured that there were no productive investments, so they did not invest in them. In the jargon, this is called a `liquidity trap'. Lower interest rates does not help, since the rich see no reason to borrow money that will not return a profit. Only spending money on the poor helps. The current fear of deflation comes from this experience. Investments in land often mean a transfer of income from one group of rich to another such group. The third danger is that factory investment takes place overseas. For example, right now, major business reports are saying that the US rich are expanding business capacity more in China than in the US. Thus, right now, giving more money to the US rich means providing more money to investment in China. This was the policy of the Clinton administration (they called it `constructive engagement') but is not liked by many Americans, who would prefer that they be employed than that Chinese be employed. Of course, protections for local labor and investment markets lead to other dillemas. trickle up: more money to the poor -- The argument for giving more money to the poor than the rich is that the poor spend more. They do not already have two jet airplanes and a large boat. By spending more, they increase demand for goods. This leads to factories producing more. If the factories are in the local country, then more local people are employed. If the factories are in a foreign country, such as China, then more Chinese are employed. Either way, the rich do not face a `liquidity trap' since they see profitable investments for their money in factories either at home or abroad. Also, there is the argument that a person who has little money will find a hundred dollars more useful than a person who has a lot of money. That is because the one hundred dollars is a bigger portion of the poor person's income or wealth than of the rich person's. Hence, the government gets `more bang for the buck' by giving money to the poor than the rich. The counter argument is that a person with only 1 US dollars will waste an additional 100 dollars, but a person with a million US dollars will spend or invest an additional 100 dollars in a manner that provides more benefit for both the rich and the poor person than the same money going to the poor person. In the US a huge problem with all 'trickle up' policies is that they require legislative intervention. Laizie Faire (sp?) economic systems stabilize with huge income and wealth disparities. In the US a combination of social atomization (probably a result of immigration--Americans feel relatively little organic connection to neighbors compared to the Dutch or Scandanavians) and Puritan heritage (meaning that wealth is regarded as both a sign of virture and an absolute right) have made trickle up policies very difficult to pass in the US. In short, 'trickle up', 'share the wealth' policies are regarded as un-American. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Trickle down vrs trickle up economics
On Sunday 2003-07-20 18:54, Kevin Tarr wrote: From: Trent Shipley In the US a huge problem with all 'trickle up' policies is that they require legislative intervention. Laizie Faire (sp?) economic systems stabilize with huge income and wealth disparities. In the US a combination of social atomization (probably a result of immigration--Americans feel relatively little organic connection to neighbors compared to the Dutch or Scandanavians) and Puritan heritage (meaning that wealth is regarded as both a sign of virture and an absolute right) have made trickle up policies very difficult to pass in the US. In short, 'trickle up', 'share the wealth' policies are regarded as un-American. I agree with what you are saying, but couldn't there be another factor? I'm wondering: from 1450 to 1600 or 1700s (whenever real colonization of the Americas began) was there any middle class in Europe? There had to be some tip over point where a person could see that he didn't have to be a surf, or go into the priesthood, or join an army to become better than the situation he was born into. I'm sure the industrial revolution played a part in that, but were there any worker strikes in Europe before America? No. There were no worker strikes to speak of before the 1800s. There were guild actions, bread riots, and peasant rebellions--but nothing quite like an Industral Revolution labor action. I'm just trying to imagine a world where Americas became another Europe with all the old ways. Instead of toiling on farms for some wealthy landowner, they toiled in a factory for some wealthy factory owner. I'm sure for some of the more socialist list members, this is the system we have now but I'm trying to be realistic, in my fantasy world. Slavery. Its in the Constitution. 3/5ths of a person and so on. While anecdotal evidence is bad, I've know plenty of people who lived before and during the depression who say We weren't poor. Maybe we only ate meat twice a week, or had tough winters, but we made due. Human nature was the same back then. They knew who the truly poor families were and I doubt as many people died of starvation or were homeless. (When the population as a whole had a normal supply of food and shelter.) Some families did have tough times from lack of work or losing one or both parents for whatever reason, but not a small fraction brought it on themselves through drinking or other non-productive behaviors. but not a small fraction brought it [poverty] on themselves through drinking or other non-productive behaviors - Indeed. But that sort of *radical* investment in personal responsibility and denial of any reciprocal responsibilty for members of an (organic) community can only exist in the Americas--and to a lesser extent in Anglophone countries. Scandanavians feel obliged to care for less fortunate neigbors--and if that misfortune is partly self inflicted, then they deal with the dysfunction. (Scandinavians who don't like this move to America.) I know American's who feel very little obligation toward adult family members. I rember being in highschool with other kids who were really terrified that their parents would cut them off when they turned 18. (It even shows up in pop culture. On Buffy Xander graduates and his parents move him to the basement and charge rent.) What I'm trying to come around to: trickle up for good or evil has been in place seventy years, at least as government policy, and it certainly hasn't eliminated the poor, it has probably increased. I know this is a bad statement. Well, its actually wrong. America, and Americans, were *much* poorer in the 1930s and before. Immense swaths of the country and whole populations were brought into the mainstream by the New Deal. In a lot of ways the Great Society also worked -- and the demise of Jim Crow didn't hurt either. The real problem with share the wealth, trickle up programs, besides the fact that it might be immoral to tax the rich, is that they slow growth. If you put off the sharing for another 20 years ... the wealth curve with either stay the same or get worse. On the up side there will probably be *a lot* more wealth to share AND the poor may no longer be misable and powerless--just powerless. But since trickle down gave them a lot more stuff too, they might be satisfied with the current state of bread and circuses, allowing for another 20 years of full growth. Oh yeah, trickle down programs also tend to be anti-cyclical. They help stabilize the economy. Though trickle-up entitelments slow growth, they also help lessen recessions. I don't want to hear about Herr Doctor's diamond shaped society because for 10,000 years there was no such thing. We can't expect this recent change in the human condition to be stable. I'm not saying it should go away, and we should fight however hard we can to keep it, but there will be ups and downs. What I'm
Re: Trickle down vrs trickle up economics
On Monday 2003-07-21 03:57, Erik Reuter wrote: On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 03:15:47AM -0700, Trent Shipley wrote: The real problem with share the wealth, trickle up programs, besides the fact that it might be immoral to tax the rich, is that they slow growth. Do you have any data to support this? Because the data I've seen shows exactly the opposite. [Ignoring the morality issue...] 0) I will stipulate that the US economy has grown more under Democratic than Republican administrations. However: 1) Desipte its romance with Clinton, Wall Street (or at least Wall Streeters) has (have) historically prefered Republican Presidents. 2) Highly socialist countries like Cuba have historically had much lower rates of growth than captialist counterparts. Very laizie faire capitalist economies like Hong Kong have often had stellar growth. As premiere of China Deng Xiaopeng (sp?) decided that China was is a position of sharing poverty, and had the fundemental problem of not having enough wealth to share. He liberalized the economy and it grew spectacularly. (Admittedly, this could have nothing to do with share the wealth, and be caused entirely by planned control.) 3) Western European and Canadian economies were never command economies, but have had much higher commitments to trickle-up policies. Post-WWII US rates of growth lead European growth rates--especially if you adjust for the pseudo-growth produced by post-war reconstruction. 4) The IMF is *always* hostile to trickle-up policies, subsidies, price controls and entitlement programs. 5) Keynsian theory has fallen out of favor, being relegated to a possible response to serious recession or depression. My Econ 101 back in the late 1980s and popular reporting on economics over more than the last twenty years emphasize the importance of Hayak-Freedman neo-liberal economic policies--including low tax burdens, hence, limited opportunity for trickle-up redistributive policies. 6) The sample size of post-WWI US Presidents is too small to resoundingly endorse trickle-up policies. Furthermore, any weak finding of correlation between Democratic administrations, prosperity, and trickle-up policies is at odds with the preponderance of theoretical economic opinion per #5. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
What is your point? That is economics, supply and demand. You can try to do something about it, but in the end it will only make things worse. The real answer is a global market in labor. Nations and patriotism are evil things. On Thursday 2003-09-11 21:59, Jan Coffey wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore, he says. But I was told, 'Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here.' It sounds fair to me. The USA has put a lot of weird laws to prevent dangerous aliens to work in the USA, so it's natural that the rest of the world puts laws to restrict USAns to work outside the USA :-P Alberto Monteiro thinking about getting a job in Moçambique O:-) You have no idea what you are talking about. Indeans have basic free reign to work in the technology sector here in the USA. At the same time American citizens are bing asked to train Indean Nationals in Bangalore and elsewhere who then eventualy take the jobs away from Americans (whatever their ethnenticity). Let's face it it's a bit hard to compete with a people who will work 80 hour weeks for 5k or 10k a year. A few years ago software engeneer was begingin to become as prestegious a job as doctor or lawyer. And for the most part it takes nearly as much education. I knwo of many in the medical profesion who dropped out of CS school becouse it was too hard. What is happening is the equivelent of moving all medical jobs to only those who are on H1 Visas and moving all the courts to Indea. How would you feel if you had taken one of the most difficult majors and racked up a lot of student loans to have those who spent their time at school partying artificialy make your degree worthless? That is what is happening. Ad if that isn't enough think of those poor Indeans, not only the ones here who are literaly forced to work 80 hour weeks for 1/3 what they are worth, but what of those in Bangalore who LIVE in front of a monitor for pennies? If this isn't slave labor then please someone tell me what is! = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. On Saturday 2003-09-13 11:47, Jan Coffey wrote: --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: [[BTW: you were so angry when you replied that it showed in many typographical errors...]] You should never make such assumptions. I do not make typographical errors. I make spelling errors becouse I am Dyslexic. This topic has been beat to death but if you want to learn more about dyslexia or why spell checkers do not solve the problem , i would be glad to entertain the conversation. As far as my emotional state goes, yes a few years ago (still in the hight of the DotCom bubble) I was angry. Then it was H1's finding advancement over those with greencards or citizenship not becouse of their skill, abillity, or commitment, but becouse they were nearly or just as good, but for less money. I was angry becouse as more and more H1's were at work the culture shifted to be ~their~ culture. It became difficult to get anything done at work in English, and although I do speak a bit of Chinese, it's not enough to get by at work, and I know only a couple of words in Hindi. BTW my wife is Chinese and my best friend is Indian. (But they don't have class systems, or racesism, and they use a language everyone can understand at work). I was angry when majority of Indeans made it into managment positions they had no quams about continuing their class system and racesism in the workplace. They treated women deploribly, and worked people like slaves. it got so bad at one point at Oracle that one whole team slept under their desks at work for over a month. Then all the GCs and Citazens quit, or moved to other groups. The brain drain on that project finaly made it fail. There are several law suits right now against Oracle for such goings on and even worse. Including one Indean woan ho was forced by her Indean boss to preform sexual favors or loose her job. It is unfortnate that Indiean society has not yet slufed off the class system and still has less reguard for women than for men. And this isn't allways the case with all Indeans, but it IS the case, to deny it is only to allow it to continue. I was angry when I saw frieds who labored to build start-ups for half of what they could have been makeing elsewhere and who showed the highest degree of loyalty and work ethic booted out of their jobs just before their options vested and replaced by H1's who would work for next to nothing with hardly no options. I was angry when 7 groups at Seible were asked to train the Indeans who would replace them, all the while being promised that they were not going to loose their jobs. It would be one thing if the Indean and Chinese corporations could do the same work, but when they have not recieved the same training. In my experience they do not understand object Oriented Design, or much at all about modern software development. They Indean and Chinese schools are simply not up to par. And this makes me angry becouse just as the DotCom failed becouse of over zelous expectations coupled with crap for code, now the same will happen to the rest of the technology sector. Unless of course the Indean and Chinese education system steps up (and I would be glad for them to do so). But then that would also mean that all of my profesion would be moved off-shore. You don't think that when that happens they will hier Americans there, let our culture take over their company, and shift all buisness to being spoken in English...do you? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No Americans Need Apply
Just my point. Historically, upper-echelon IT workers have been very liberterian and anti-union. Serves 'em right. (telecom workers are another matter) On Sunday 2003-09-14 03:46, The Fool wrote: From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah? So join a union or quit whining. Where are these so-called IT unions. I haven't seen one. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia
. Mr. Shipley will of course also receive proper credit for his work. About joining Brin-L: Upon dr. Brin's recommendation I have joined your mailing lists (it appears there are two) and introduced myself there. I hope the Brin-L community will be able to aid me in improving and expanding the A4PE, should mr. Shipley agree to entrust me with it. About mr. Shipley's issues: Why do I wish to take the A4PE off mr. Shipley's hands? It is a excellent piece of work, but mr. Shipley has expressed that he has lost interest in it. If nobody volunteers to continue his work, it is likely that it will eventually disappear entirely. I have learned that a similar project called The Great Library of the Five Galaxies (an award-winning website by a mr. Tim Robinson) has already suffered such a fate. It would be a shame and a loss if the same would happen to the A4PE. I have not yet developed any detailed plans for the A4PE, as we have not yet reached an agreement. Some still rough ideas are: include/expand items such as a complete cast of characters, information on the various characters and races, adding graphics, and improving the overall look feel of the site. Any suggestions and help from the Brin-L community would of course be welcome and appreciated. What I cannot do, unfortunately, is provide you with a portfolio of prior writing and graphics, and only provide you with very little about web development. I have done ample writing over the years, but none of it is available on the Internet; my writings range from a handful of articles for a school newspaper (several years ago, now lost) to howto documents for computer users to business reports and technical procedures. These were for internal use within a few companies I've worked for and were only available either in print and/or on the company's intranet. You will understand that I am not in a position to share those documents. I do have some web design skills (I have contributed to the design of the abovementioned intranet sites), but almost none of it is published on the Internet. I have started working on a personal home page, but matters more important than that have taken up my time until recently, leaving me very little time to work on it. The only page currently available can be found at http://www.geocities.com/lundstrom_matt. You will be pleased to know that, having become unemployed last September, I've now found the time for (and have started working on) improving my web design skills (such as HTML, XML, style sheets, Javascript). One does not become an expert overnight of course, this will take time. But if the A4PE website is representative of mr. Shipley's web design talents, then I already have no problem matching his skills. My one disadvantage is my skill at designing graphics: hardly worth mentioning. Creating something simple like a button for a website does not pose a problem, but that is pretty much where it ends. I do not believe that this should pose a real problem though. Some friends of mine are quite talented in this field, and I trust that there will also be people in the Brin-L community who will be able and willing to contribute their graphics skills to the A4PE project. I hope I have addressed your concerns to your satisfaction. If there are any other concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me. Meanwhile, I look forward to your reply and to mr. Shipley's editorial policies and procedures and hope we can soon come to an agreement. With regards, Matt Lundstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: d.brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:04:55 -0700 Mr. Lundstrom Please scan my exchange with Trent Shipley below. In addition to other concerns expressed below, Trent is right that I would require a bold and well placed disclaimer stating that the materials are officially amateur and informal and based on fan appreciation of my universe, not in any way infringing upon my copyrights or right to profit from my universes. It must be clear that I have not closely supervised the contents of the A4P and that any discrepancies with my books are the lookout of the A4P creators and readers. I do recommend you join the Brin-L discussion list and get to know the members of the community there. Introduce yourself and talk about your ideas. They are a welcoming and friendly group. It will soon become clear whether this idea shows promise. I hope it does! With cordial regards, David Brin www.davidbrin.com X-Apparently-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] via web80011.mail.yahoo.com; 16 Oct 2003 16:57:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [207.217.120.122] From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: d.brin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fwd: Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17
Re: [A4P] Change of address
I have removed my site. If you have links, please update them to point to Matt's site. Congratulations to Matt Lundstrom, the new A4P Encyclopedia Editor in Chief. As of now the Alliance for Progress Encyclopedia is available at http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress (update your bookmarks!). It's also still available at Trent's own website, but it should disappear from there within a week or so, leaving only a link to the A4PE's new location. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Br!n: and now the TV series are pirateeing your characters!
Can the estate of Edgar Rice Burroughs sue for the use of John Carter ... of Mars? On Thursday 2003-12-04 20:05, Davd Brin wrote: Heh! tell me if he is... well... 'colored' --- Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the 10th season of E.R., one of the student-medicals [I never understood those titles] is called... Archie Morris If I were you, I would sue them for 1 billion dollars! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Lesh
At least it is on topic. - Lesh ab-Tothtoon ab-Rosh ab-Kosh ab-Erbl ul-Zhuup ul-Vijls ul-Lith ul-Heebi The Lesh are at the pinnacle of their career as a main-sequence species. Staunch members of the Tothtoon super-clan, the Lesh are its leading merchants and widely regarded as the second most influential members after the Thennanin. The Lesh are moderate but stalwart Awaiters. Lesh are descended from large, four legged, semi-upright gatherers that lived in tropical and semi-tropical forests. The proto-Lesh were extraordinary generalists who climbed well, but also harvested resources in scrubland. Proto-Lesh social behavior was also highly generalized. The size of proto-Lesh social groups varied with resources diversity. Most of the time proto-Lesh were semi-solitary but in the presence of abundant food proto-Lesh would form pack-sized social groups, and in the event of a windfall, group size could be very large indeed. Note that the proto-Lesh actually formed social groups with complex politics and even food sharing--the groups were not mere population aggregations like occur among bears during a salmon run. Proto-Lesh social groups were very flexible. When food was abundant groups would grow and were fairly peaceful except for occasional dominance displays and competition for females in oestrous. As a food supplies became depleted conflict increased and proto-Lesh social groups dwindled. In cases where resources were relatively dense and persistent proto-Lesh tended to form proto-communities. Each proto-Lesh had its own network of relationships although there might be persistent groups of high network density called cliques. Persistent high density populations also had a transient character as proto-Lesh drifted into the area. Out-migration tended to balance in-migration when nagging social-political conflict and adverse changes in dominance caused other proto-Lesh to leave an area of consistently high resource density. Uplifted Lesh look like upright bears with short legs and long arms that end in three fingered hands. The Erbl uplifted the Lesh to excel as merchants, and they succeeded brilliantly. The Erbl retained proto-Lesh social behavior. The Lesh can work in a large array of social configurations, though many Lesh spend a lot of time alone. Unfortunately, Lesh are not ideal organization men--they are seldom happy in low-prestige jobs. The Lesh uplifted their first clients, the Zhuup, to fill roles in middle-management and as laborers. Lesh enjoy new things and seek out new experiences. Lesh are amiable and, while not exactly xenophilic, they enjoy the company of most other sapients and often keep pets. The ubiquitous solitary Lesh free-trader or lone trader and his or her child typically make the most of their time in port with any other Lesh they might meet there, then move on without any sign of remorse. Though Lesh exhibit altruism from time to time, they always strive for the optimum diplomatic or economic bargain. Human who deal with Lesh say its not true a Lesh would sell her own mother ... but mom's house and favorite pet are negotiable. Lesh military forces are just adequate to protect the clan's considerable industrial and mercantile interests as well as Clan Tothtoon mutual security obligations. Militarily the Lesh are a respectable but not a great power. Not surprisingly Lesh are active in the institutes of Trade, Navigation, and Money. They are also well represented in the institutes of Coexistence and Civilized Warfare. Human wags have said that Lesh foreign policy can be summed up as free trade good, war bad. The Lesh are not pacifists but do not like conflict because it is bad for business. Lesh diplomats are active mediators, often acting through the auspices of the Galactic Institute for Civilized Warfare. Lesh trade actively with Earth Clan, though the terms of trade are not always regarded as fair by Terragens. Lesh development aid to the Terragen Confederation has been modest. However, during the Siege of Earth and its aftermath the Lesh have given New York considerable aid-in-kind and free economic development advisement. The increase is largely regarded as a demonstration of solidarity with the Thennanin and their new Garthling clients rather than an intrinsic interest in Earth Clan. On the other hand, Lesh--consistent with their conflict averse foreign policy--have been highly critical of the current climate of aggression. Lesh relations with the Obeyer Jophur are strained to the breaking point. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lesh
On Saturday 2003-12-13 05:36, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Lesh ab-Tothtoon ab-Rosh ab-Kosh ab-Erbl ul-Zhuup ul-Vijls ul-Lith ul-Heebi Erbl? Erbl uplifted them? I picked Erbl because I thought it was an unused nonsense word. Has it been used already for something else in the Uplift Universe? And the order should be ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon Sorry. My bad. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Notes on Junior Members of Clan Thennanin
!-- Begin HTML frag -- ul liThennanin [patronym specified]/li ul liPaimin [patronym specified]/li ul liPah [patronym specified]/li ul liGirpaimin lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li /ul liNus [patronym specified]/li liKraraton lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li /ul liRammin [patronym specified]/li ul liVlught [patronym specified]/li ul liLohtngos lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li /ul /ul liYnnin lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li liOlumimin lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li liNahalli lt;immature as punishmentgt; [patronym specified]/li liGarthling [or Chooser] (formerly Neo-Gorilla) lt;immaturegt; [patronym specified]/li /ul /ul !-- End HTML frag -- With GURPS Uplift 2nd ed and Contacting Aliens available I do not want to eat into sales. Less important, but significant, is avoiding increasing entropy by contradicting other sources. Even so, none of the sources can reasonably be understood as listing all the generations under the Thennanin. Herein, I try finish the Thennanin Clan tree. -- Paimin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon ul-Pah ul-Nus ul-Karaton The Paimin are the Thennanin's eldest client species. They are long past their indenture. Paimin were uplifted to help the Thennanin with diplomacy and public relations. -- Pah ab-Paimin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon ul-Girpaimin The Pah were uplifted from solitary stalker/pouncer carnivores resembling the Tiger on Earth. The Pah were uplifted to provide security and intelligence for Paimin diplomatic missions. The Pah also made up much of the Paimin contribution to the Thennanin Clan military forces. Except for select roles, the Pah were mediocre warriors. The Pah are devout Abdicator. -- Girpaimin ab-Pah ab-Paimin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon Girpaimin were uplifted from a avian species that had returned to living on the ground. The flightless proto-Girpaimin had four limbs. The upper limbs had two fingered claws without palms. Proto-Girpaimin lived in large pack sized groups on sub-tropical savannahs eating roots, berries, grain, small animals, and occasionally cooperatively hunting moderate sized prey or stealing ill protected kills. Girpaimin mating rituals involved constructing fairly elaborate bowers. Girpaimin are currently stage three clients. They are being uplifted to replace the Pah in many military capacities. Clan Paimin also uses the Girpaimin in many engineering jobs. Some Girpaimin have already become notable Architects and Arcologists. -- Nus ab-Paimin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon The Nus are mature clients. They were raised to help the Paimin in their primary mission as servitors and protocol experts. Proto-Nus were hexapodal centaurs with three sexes and two castes. One sex was a neuter sex. A productive group consisted of at least six members. With mutch ritual the fishing caste and fruit harvesting caste exchanged food. Now adult, the Nus are seeking a niche in Galactic society. -- Kraraton ab-Paimin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon Stage five clients, the Kraraton are noted poets and dramatists. They have a pronounced sense of humor. -- Rammin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon Fatalistic warriors whose uplift and world-view optimized them for particularly daring professions like fighter pilot. They avoid outside control and keep to themselves. -- Vlught ab-Rammin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon The Vlught are a mature client. The proto-Vlught were avian hunters who resembled Earths raptors. Uplifted Vlught can still fly. They are excellent pilots and were uplifted to relieve the Rammin from many of their obligations to Clan Thennanin. The Vlught are enthusiastic, even fanatical, members of Clan Thennanin. They have a reputation as poor diplomats and merchants. -- Lohtngos ab-Vlught ab-Rammin ab-Thennanin ab-Wortl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon The Lohtngos are second stage clients of the Vlught. Proto-Lohtngos were herd-dwelling, wading browsers and grazers. The proto-Lohtngos lived in sizable herds and had moderately complex social structures. Uplifted Lohtngos work well together, enjoy the company of other species and have a passion for environmental issues. The Vlught hope that the Lohtngos will help alleviate the perceived Vlught deficit in diplomacy. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Junior Members of Clan Thennanin
I want our good Dr. Brin to contradict GURPS--again! The Garthlings chose their own cohorts, numans and chimpanzees. Clearly in violation of the rules as set up by GURPS. I don't think its in violation of GURPS rules. Its just a violation of standard behavior. Few pre-level-one clients would be *capable* of providing any input into who they wanted as their patron. Even if they could, few would have the political option to do so. Even in the context of _Uplift War_ choosing needs to be understood in context. The Gorillas were very impressed with the Thennanin ambasador, the Uplift officials interpreted the Gorilla infatuation as a choice of patron. It is the sort of thing that is *unique* in Galactic history and allowing the Rousit to do the same would cheapen the symbolic import of the Garthlings as Choosers. I want the same thing to happen with the Rousit. You remember the Rousit? Barely. They play a very minor role in the Jijo books, no? Given your interest I am guessing that their patrons were Hoon? So insignificant that they were left out of both the AfP, and Contacting Aliens. (hehehe) William Taylor -- Chronologist for the Hoonish Renaissance. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Non-PC Humor from other lands
This was retold by VS Naipaul: In days of yore the Shah is reviewing the troops. He holds a rifle before a private and asks, Soldier what is your name? Private Ahmed, your highness! He takes Ahmed's rifle and examines it. What is this Private Ahmad? It is my rifle Sir! The Shah says No. it is your Honor, your Wife, your Sister, your Mother. He hands the rifle back. Private Ahmed steps back in line. The Shah walks down the line and examines a rifle from another private who happens to be a Turk (not a Persian) from d-e-e-p in the hill country. The Shah asks Soldier what is this? The Turk responds, with military precision, It is Private Ahmad's Honor, his Wife, ... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Notes on Uplift
Naturally, since I stopped publishing the Encyclopedia, I have had a burst of creativity with Uplift Universe created topics. One topic leads to another. In the course of thinking about the Tothtoon, the question arises of how uplift, in a political and demographic sense works. The first questions that come to mind are for the interval in question how many O-2 habitable planets are there, how many of them are currently leased for habitation, and how many uplifted main-sequence O-2 species are competing for those planets. At one point I suggested that there might be 10,000 to 12,000 uplifted species, but now I think this might be a bit low. (See: http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/gray/grymtrb1.html ) I also think that the encyclopediest or writer working in the Uplift Universe should assume that the number of available habitats is growing slowly, the total biomass of sapient O-2 species is growing slightly faster than the available habitat--despite the best efforts of the Migration Institute, and the number of uplifted species is growing faster than the increase in population of individuals. Nevertheless, the rate of increase in the number of uplifted species is still pretty low. We are led to believe that uplift is pretty rare. Some causes for this scarcity might be natural. The implication is that it is just very rare to find a new species suitable for uplift. But the level of Galactic technology is very high. If they let themselves, Galactics could uplift insects. The critical causes of uplift scarcity must be artificial. For some reason, each ur species can be the subject of no more than one uplift project. Second, even though it damages no ecosystem, potential ur populations living on fallow planets cannot be uplifted. Most important, the Uplift Institute sets an arbitrary threshold for how promising a candidate population must be before it can be adopted as the root-stock for an uplift project. Then there is the question of how many clients each mature species needs to uplift to achieve replacement. Even in the best of circumstances some patrons will not want to uplift clients and some clients will become extinct before reaching maturity. The replacement rate must be just over one client per mature citizen species. So for each mature citizen species the GUI needs to award something like 1.1 clients. There are several ways that clients might be distributed among patrons. First the allotment could be random. If a species finds a potential client, then it can uplift it. Rich species can buy potential clients if they can find anyone willing to sell. (This is a good role-playing model since it results in type of adventure seed: find the client.) Even in other types of distribution systems randomness could play a part. For example, explorers might discover lots of potential clients but the GUI is reluctant to issue more than one permit per patron. In this case potential isn't rare and mature species are likely to be very selective about picking an ur population. In another scenario the GUI forces very successful explorers to sell surplus claims. Distribution of clients could be fairly equitable. In this case nearly every species who wants a client gets one. However, being allowed to uplift a second client is a rare privilege and only the most powerful patrons get permission to uplift three or more clients. In this scenario there is a lot of resentment for the Human clan *because they are so wealthy!* Galactics feel about Humans the way others feel about Kuwait--they are rich without having to earn their wealth. In a slightly less equitable system of distribution most would-be patrons uplift one client, a significant minority will never uplift any client, and a few patrons have two or more clients. From a writers perspective this can make for moral subtlety --is the Human resentment of the Galactic order justified? With moderate inequality the plurality of citizen species uplift only one client, the next most common category will never uplift clients, there is nothing remarkable about having two or three clients even though this is an unusual level of wealth. More successful patrons often designate heir-apparents. In a situation of heavy inequality uplift is dominated by powerful clans. Maybe half of all citizen species will never get a client, another quarter consider themselves fortunate to uplift a single client, and the last quarter uplift two or more clients. Powerful patron lines dominate oligarchal Galactic politics. Lesser lines usually die out in two or three generations. They are replaced by less favored clients of the great patron lines. In a situation of extreme inequality Galactic civilization takes on a feudal quality. Great Patrons almost always designate a lucky client as their primary heir. Junior clan members may get to uplift one or two clients. These
Re: christianism is evil, why it must be eradicated
On Sunday 2003-12-21 16:38, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I read a note in a br newspaper yesterday, and it basically said something like this: hey, folks, you think the USA is a christian country, but it's not; in fact, christians have been persecuted with violence, with the g*vernment approval And then he listed what he thought was happening. Since the USA listmembers don't seem to say these things, I guess he is wrong. He mentioned things like: He's not so much wrong as (probably) in a lunatic fringe of ultra-conservative evangelical christians. Government school systems in the US are intentionally decentralized. School districts (in most states) tend to be local affairs. In the Greater Phoenix area we must have over a dozen individual districts (polities with their own elections, budgets, and policies) for grade schools and half that number of districts for secondary schools. There are more school districts than municipalities. * public schools forbid kids to wear christian symbols, including carrying a bible to school This would probably be unconstitutional. Minors do not have complete rights to freedom of speech--especially at school--but a Bible wouldn't be obscene or objectionable. No doubt it has happened, but when it occurs it is an aberation. * public schools punish kids that pray or proselityse. There is a difference between younger and older children. Children CAN pray. There might be restrictions, mostly their would not be allowed to interfere with the education of others, and maybe of themselves. (Muslims might be expected to perform obligatory prayers between classes, for example. Evangelical Christians might need to pray quietly so as not to disturb others.) PUBLIC prayers in istructional settings are out. Proselityzing is problematic. It tends to be permitted at secondary schools so long as it doesnt interfere with instruction. Schools CANNOT endorse prosyletizing or any prayer. This tends to piss some conservatives off. They don't like some logical extensions of the no establishment clause. * public schools suspend and fire teachers that profess a Christian faith They cant. That would violate the Constitution. This also means that a teacher is limited about overt actions they take based on that faith, they cannot try to convert kids, force students to pray, insist God exists (though they could say that they personally believe God or gods exists), and they might be compelled to teach evolution--though in practice a teacher can teach evolution and try to convince his or her students evolution is bunk, and some do. * it's ok to claim anti-christian slogans in front of churches, like bring in the lions! Yep. That is protected speech. You cannot incite a riot or a crime, so long as you don't advocate criminal activity you can picket churches and slander religion. * a student that mentions anything anti-islamic is forced to spend hours in reeducating classes, where he must study and recite the Quram Schools tend to discourage hate speech. (Remeber minors, especially pre-teens, have limited free-speech protection, and they have *less* protection when at school.) Virulent anti-Islamic statements at school or worse, slurs directed at actual people are likely to result in some sort of sensitivity training. This is indoctrination, no matter what supporters might say. In that sort of environment the trainee WILL have to study Islam, and depending on the program might actually have to study and/or memorize verses from the Quran. NOTE that the intent would not be conversion (that would be unconstitional). The hope is that the trainee will be less suceptible to hateful ideas and have an attitude more suited to living and working peacfully and productively in a multi-racial and multi-ethnic country. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Zhuup
the ur species was developed in part using the system in SeJ's Uplift 2nd ed. Zhuup ab-Lesh ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon ul-Zinth ul-Lotip ul-Byldur The Lesh as members of the Tothtoon Superclan and clients of the Erbl began their career in Galactic Civilization from a very privileged position. By the time the Lesh had completed their uplift they had already proven themselves merchants of the first order. Therefore, the Lesh had every reason to expect that they could fulfill the Clan Tothtoon ideal of uplifting three clients, with the third client uplifted to take over the Lesh niche in Galactic Civilization. Clan Tothtoon Tradition advises that a young patrons first client should complement the would-be patron. The Lesh were successful merchants. Unfortunately, their inherited social structure made it difficult for the Lesh to form large, stable social groups. In particular, Lesh are touchy. No one wants to be at the bottom of a social edifice for long. Lesh who find themselves locked in to roles like private soldier or laborer nearly always leave to seek greener pastures after a few months. Lesh military units were small and flexible. Lesh had little heavy industry. The Lesh economy needed organization men to run industry that would produce goods for Lesh merchants. The Lesh purchased an uplift claim on the Zhuup from the Thennanin who were then very active conducting surveys on contract for the GIM. When discovered their homeworld had been in an ice age for about 12,000 local years. The proto-Zhuup were ground dwelling, quadrupedal grazers, living in herds on semi-arid temperate plains. They were moderately large creatures, about the size of a small pony. Herds could include as many as 96 individuals, though most were less than half that large. During the mating season males became territorial. Successful males kept harems during mating season. Their natural history had left the proto-Zhuup with intelligence, potential, and an unusually long lifespan and tendency to bear few offspring. However, the proto-Zhuup no longer exhibited a high level of neoteny. Proto-Zhuup had camel-like feet and were not terribly fast. When threatened by predators they formed a defensive circle much like Earth's Musk Ox. They had thick hides, butting horns that were particularly pronounced on males, and a single short tusk that pierced their upper lip. The tusk was notable because it was hollow and was a means for injecting a poison that was very painful to most of the local fauna. The proto-Zhuup also had a notable sensory array. Behind their horns they had a fully retractable set of four eyes on stalks, phenomenal hearing, and an acute sense of smell. Uplifted Zhuup are smaller than their ancestors. They are only slightly larger than Humans. They are fully upright with serviceable hands. They retain their horns and poisonous tusk (according to the Library the poison should have little effect on Earthlings); however, horns are not fully formed until the Lesh are in late puberty to facilitate cranial expansion. The Lesh opted to reduce the proto-Zhuup sense of smell to free up room for higher brain functions. Zhuup hearing is still very good, though not quite on par with their ancestors. Most of the year the Zhuup are some of the hardest workers in the Galaxies. However, the Lesh did not alter the proto-Zhuup mating pattern. The Zhuup home planet of Kppthi'ik has a year that is 1.2 hab-years long. For 1/16 of that year the Zhuup are on mating season holiday. Female Zhuup are very engaged during this time but always manage minimal staffing levels for critical services. Males in critical professions such as physicians are also on call and capable of performing their duties competently. Zhuup are seriously annoyed by novelty and surprises, they gravitate toward predictable industries and plan all their undertakings extensively. The Zhuup are tremendously successful industrialists who work very well in large teams. Zhuup are also good, if uninspired, soldiers. They have a reputation for being mediocre ecologists, however. This is a serious failing in the Tothtoon Clan, but the Zhuup make the most of it. Many live on a-class worlds or space-based arcologies. As uplift artists the Zhuup are unremarkably competent, but prolific. They are already powerful, wealthy patrons in their own right. Politically the Zhuup are instinctive conservatives. Nevertheless, they tow the Lesh diplomatic line. Meanwhile, they actively lobby for more conservative Lesh Clan policies. The Zhuup exhibit less diplomatic flexibility and finesse than the Lesh, despite the costs they often go through mediators when doing business with species that differ from them. Despite the Lesh policy of promiscuous trade, Zhuup refuse to do business with the Tandu. There are a few other Inheritor and Obeyor Clans or Species that the
Re: Notes on Uplift
On Monday 2003-12-22 08:45, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: I have done some estimates on this. From data from GURPS Uplift and from Contacting Aliens, I estimate: * about 2 million populated planets at each time Across how many galaxies? All five of them. (Note that for the 1000KY +- Contact Galaxy 4 was fallow, so it doesn't matter. The real question is whether the GIM populates 2M planets in Galaxy 2 or throughout GIM controled space.) My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Alberto, as I recall Drake's Equation has no factor for Planets Fallow by order of the GIM. Are you proposing there 2M habitable planets, some of which are Fallow or that there are, perhaps, 6M habitable planets 2M of which are *not* Fallow? Have you made any allowance for an increase in the number of habitable planets due to terraforming? (Do you need to?) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
We approximate the rate of uplift as an average of 1.1 client per mature species. (The [fictional] real rate has to include non-reproducers and mortality and some growth in the number of citizen species it must be between 1.01 and 1.2.) Clients are not fairly distributed. Lets assume 11% of all O-2 citizens are minors. (1% of these are going to get 'lost') Note this seems to imply that the mean life expectancy for an O-2 citizen race is about 1,000,000 years. This 1 My is explicitly stated in Heaven's Reach. This is a bit short for purposes of continuity with the fiction. If you want the mean life expectency between the start of uplift and passing-on to be 10MY then you need to divide by 10, so only 1.1% of all O-2 citizens would be minors. But 10 My is too much for an average. Notice that everybody expects the Buyur to be retired, after only 0.5 My. With maximally equitble distribution about 10% of Citizens are patrons, 1% of the population have 2 clients. In this sort of society you might want to uplift your client early to maximize your power. This implies a species lifecycle of 10% minority, 10% young adult, 10% active parent with client, 70% empty nest (except for the 10% of the population who get a second client).With low death rates the average client in its minority/indenture would have 4 ancestors in its patronymic because a citizen tends to start its uplift project when it is about 200KY old. And this is consistent with the data from the Books. Alternatively, a most responsible citizen might uplift their client late so they have a lot of wisdom and technology for the project. Then you have 10% minor, 60% adult, 10% parent, 20% elder. Patronymics tend to be short. And Patronymics _are_ short: few races enumerate more than 3 or 4 daddies. At really low levels of equity only 1% of all species might be patrons at any given time and many patrons will be active uplifting clients throughout their careers as main sequence citizens. If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? I picked 11% because there will be some mortality among uplift projects. With current medical technology the replacement birthrate is something like 2.1 births per couple. 1.1 is a convenient (if not totally convincing) replacement rate for the population of O-2 species My other point is that if there are X uplift minors and X uplifters then the system is egalitarian. The Uplift Universe is *VERY* fair. Even if there are 10 uplift projects for 9 uplifters the system is still pretty darn fair. We get what economists would call a flat wealth curve. The implication is that there is little class warfare -- most (almost all) races are middle class and equal. It implies that even powerful clans, like the Soro or Thennanin are not too powerful. Democratic and egalitarian socio-political dynamics keep them in check. This is bad for literature. If there are 10 clients being uplifted then we need fewer than 10 patrons. If there are 2 or 3 patrons per 10 clients things are ripe for revolution. 4 to 6 to 10 and things are noticibly unfair, but we can claim there is equal opportunity. Social Darwinism is good say Dr. Pangloss. 7 or 8 and we have some sort of dialectic between fair distribution and rewards to cummulative advantage. The wealth curves that involve 4 to 8 patrons per 10 clients probably make for good story backgrounds. (These ratios assume that patrons are assigned their clients all at once, instead of finishing a project and starting the next Still you see my point.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
On Tuesday 2003-12-23 22:09, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 10:52 PM 12/23/2003 -0600 Robert Seeberger wrote: I think the point Tom is riffing on is that Rush has repeatedly claimed that there is no constitutional right to privacy. That would likely apply also to medical records. Why does arguing that there is no constitution right to privacy to have abortions or homosexual relationships at all apply to the execution of the laws of Florida regarding medical records? Or more generally, what is so inconsistent about saying that there is no right to privacy to have an abortion or a homosexual relationship, but that there is a right to privacy that protects one from a government's unreasonable search of your medical records? It is not at all evident to me that there is a position on one necessitates a position on the other. A position on one entails a position of the other if you defend yourself with an apeal to a *general* right to privacy. If you apeal to a medical right to privacy (or confidentiality) then it covers the Linbaugh case and the abortion case. (Separating the two will require arguing abortion is not under the purview of medicine--no problem for JDG, no doubt, but a postion that is far from obvious to me). However, a narrower medical right to privacy DOES obviously exclude protection for sexual practices. -- More importantly, who cares if Rush is a hypocrite? If he's such a good conservative why has he been married and divorced so many times? Rush is a marketeer. Attacking Rush for being Rush is a cheap ad homeniem argument. Rush is not important, his showmanship and message are--especially his showmanship. The way he packages his message and the good feeling he gives his listeners is more important than his message. The message tends to be pretty thin, but its an energizing rush for conservatives. JDG - Who has no arguments, nor any apologies. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Notes on Uplift
Your model seems to be pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting client (stages 1 to 4?) - indentured client (stage 5?) Since stage has the same population, and assuming mortality is minimal, each stage must take the same amount of time. Yes: the period where a species is under uplift may vary a lot, but it's said somewhere that the mean [median?] is 100k. And the period of indenture is explicitly stated as 100k. My mental model is pre-uplift (stage 0) - uplifting clients, this includes indenture (stages 1-5) Ok, but why do you join the indenture period with the uplift period? They are quite distinct phases. The pre-uplift stage goes fast but has high mortality as the GUI denies claims or proposed projects. It is also irrelevant. We do not worry about pre-clients in this census. Yes :-) The mean term for uplift/indenture combined is 100KY No!!! The uplift process can be long or short, but the indenture period is fixed. First, let me say that I am a bit embarassed to be having this conversation since it shows the degree to which I have denegrated into a Trekkie -- writing fan-fic is bad enough but I am about to indulge in proof-texting science fiction. Of course, my embarasment is not enough to make me stop Note, I am working off of SeJ's Uplift 2nd ed. I don't think DB has (or would need to) develop this little theme. Still, for myself it would be nice to have this bit of background pinned down. Alberto, your reading of the text that there are basically four gross phases of maturity (pre-uplift, uplift, indenture, full-maturity) seems reasonable. Even so, I do not think it was what SeJ intended. I think that the uplift stage (stages 1-5), minor client, and indenture are all meant to be used as synonyms. On Uplift 2nd ed p82 SeJ talks about indenture--that is to say being a minor client--in general. On p83 his intent is not to talk about a different stage in a species life-cycle, instead he just goes into more specific detail about what he just discussed on p82. I cannot prove outright that SeJ did not mean to say that there was a stage of uplift minority followed by a stage of uplift indenture, b I can marshal circumstantial evidence that his intent was instead that uplift minority and indenture were in fact meant to be two words for the same thing. -- Had SeJ meant indenture to be a stage following uplift we would expect him to be quite explicit about it. The order of the passages would be different in the 2nd edition. He would first talk about uplift THEN about indenture. Furthermore, there would be a scentence in the passage about indenture to the effect The period of uplift is paid off with a period of indenture. (There is a passage that implies this, but it is in the glossare under 'indenture' and can be read as meaning that uplift is paid-off with services rendered during the process of uplift.) There would somewhere be a reference to 100,000 years followed by another 100,000 years or a reference to 200,000 years of subjegation somewhere in DB or SeJ. -- When not practiced by wierdos like Humans, the 2nd edition allows for only about a 30% variation in the duration of uplift if we keep stage 5 at 50KY (and the book say 50KY is a *minimum.) The minimum period is 83KY and the max is 105KY. There is no need to posit a second 100KY because many species are uplifted really fast. -- The indenture passage on p82 say that patrons can perform uplift manipulations on their indentured clients. If the clients have completed their uplift then how can their patrons still perform uplift on them? -- The Nahalli are reindentured to the Thennanin for punishment, and presumably rehabilitation. This implies that the Nahalli are *NOT* subject to uplift as clients in their minority, but the Thennanin are responsible for the Nahalli. The Thennanin have been cursed with an albatros--they cannot reform the Nahalli without uplift manipualiton. (This might make sense if the Thennanin were the Nahalli's uplift consorts and are being punished rather than rewarded.) -- When the Stoort free the Kaschan (their elders) and the Heebi (juniors) from the J'8lek, the Kaschan are indentured to their uplift consorts as were the Heebi, the Pargi. Why? Under your interpretation they were *indentured* this means that they must have finished or been absolved of further patron supervised uplift. Why force them into an indenture? If they go into indenture why not the trouble-making Stoort? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Rush Limbaugh is a hypocrite
On Tuesday 2003-12-23 23:27, Deborah Harrell wrote: jaw dropping How can you *possibly* equate sexual activity between consenting adults to abortion? Especially since homosexual sex has *no* chance of leading to abortion? With the disclaimer that I do not know JDG's personal views on the matter, homosexuality and other sexual practices are *NOT* private matters for many conservatives. At minimum they involve issues of sin and morality and at most they have grossly corossive effects on society, possibly even leading to Gibonian decay. I am pretty much a social darwinist (more cynical, disillusioned liberal than a real conservative), but used to work with people who were much more conservative than me. I once said that Clinton's effort to allow homosexuals in the military (then maybe 8 years history) was morally laudible (irrelevant, social darwinist remember) and importantly technically and fiscally responsible ... I was gently reminded that not everyone thought that letting gays in the military was noble, some people thought it morally reprehensible and a pernicious idea no matter how appealing from a fiscal or technocratic perspective. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Indenture: was Notes on Uplift
On Thursday 2003-12-25 05:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: I agree with your interpretation of GURPS Uplift. But I still think that the indenture phase should be _another_ phase. Uplift is considered a service that the patron does to the client, so this must be followed by the indenture, that is way of paying back. Alberto Monteiro Adding a *true* indenture phase would be nice. Then we would have pre-uplift/claim phase minority (uplift proper, uplift stages 1-5 per GURPS Uplift 2nd ed.) indenture (payoff for minority, new request from DB SeJ, et al) maturity. Would you like me to add an extra-cannonical true indenture to any future fan-fic I might write? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift Parity: was Notes on Uplift
On Wednesday 2003-12-24 06:22, Alberto Monteiro wrote: If we want 1MY mean life-spans, then 11% clients and 5% patrons might provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. Uh? I picked 11% I got the 11%. I didn't get the provide for interesting but not grossly inequitble politics consistent with existing sources on the Uplift Universe. because there will be some mortality among uplift projects. With current medical technology the replacement birthrate is something like 2.1 births per couple. 1.1 is a convenient (if not totally convincing) replacement rate for the population of O-2 species Ok, but I am not (yet) worried about this precision :-) My other point is that if there are X uplift minors and X uplifters then the system is egalitarian. The Uplift Universe is *VERY* fair. Even if there are 10 uplift projects for 9 uplifters the system is still pretty darn fair. We get what economists would call a flat wealth curve. The implication is that there is little class warfare -- most (almost all) races are middle class and equal. It implies that even powerful clans, like the Soro or Thennanin are not too powerful. Democratic and egalitarian socio-political dynamics keep them in check. This is bad for literature. No - the system may be fair, but some clans might twist it a little bit. So, most of the 200k races would be egalitarian, except a small minority of powerful clans. If there are 10 clients being uplifted then we need fewer than 10 patrons. If there are 2 or 3 patrons per 10 clients things are ripe for revolution. But then things would be quite unstable. Most of the lines would quickly extinguish - at the fast rate of 50% to 66% each generation! There are two sorts of instability. One level of instability is at the level of the lineage. The other is the stablity of the inter-species political order. Moderate or serious disparities in wealth curves mean that a lot of lineages die out. Having lineages die out is not necessarily a problem for Galactic political stability. In real life lineages are usually short lived--even in lineage oriented societies like the middle east or in Samoa. Political instability results when MAJOR lines die out. When the King dies without issues you get wars of succession. With enough repression *very* repressive regimes can last a long time--but usually dont. Moderately unfair regimes can be very stable, look at the wealth curve for the USA. 4 to 6 to 10 and things are noticibly unfair, but we can claim there is equal opportunity. Social Darwinism is good say Dr. Pangloss. 7 or 8 and we have some sort of dialectic between fair distribution and rewards to cummulative advantage. The wealth curves that involve 4 to 8 patrons per 10 clients probably make for good story backgrounds. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. Lets talk in terms of total clients uplifted during a patron's main sequence existence. In that case a replacement rate of one under total fairness gives this histogram. 0| 1 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| 1 9| 1 With a replacement rate of 1.1 total fairness gives: 0| 1 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| 1 9| #2 If 10% of species don't want to uplift clients then we get a totally fair system with: 0| . 1| 1 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| #2 9| #2 With 10% opting not to have clients, 10% prevented from having clients and some minimal unfairness we might have 0| . 1| . 2| 1 3| 1 4| 1 5| 1 6| 1 7| 1 8| #2 9| ##3 This doesn't prevent a few lines to usurp clients from extinguished lines, and growing at the expense of others. These expansionist lines should be just a few, otherwise the system would be too unstable. Literature is saved: the famous fanatical races of the Canon are those expansionist clans, eager to expand by taking Terra's 3 unfinished races. No. I dont like it. You are saying that the system is so fair only the powerful would want to change it. (These ratios assume that patrons are assigned their clients all at once, instead of finishing a project and starting the next Still you see my point.) I propose: 00| . 01| . 02| . 03| . 04| . 05| . 06| . 07| . 08| . 09| . 10| . 11| . 12| . 13| . 14| . 15| . 16| . 17| . 18| . 19| . 20| . 21| . 22| . 23| . 24| . 25| . 26| . 27| . 28| . 29| . 30| . 31| . 32| . 33| . 34| . 35| 1 36| 1 37| 1 38| 1 39| 1 40| 1 41| 1 42| 1 43| 1 44| 1 45| 1 46| 1 47| 1 48| 1 49| 1 50| 1 51| 1 52| 1 53| 1 54| 1 55| 1 56| 1 57| 1 58| 1 59| 1 60| 1 61| 1 62| 1 63| 1 64| 1 65| 1 66| 1 67| 1 68| 1 69| 1 70| 1 71| 1 72| 1 73| 1 74| 1 75| 1 76| 1 77| 1 78| 1 79| 1 80| #2 81| #2 82| #2 83| #2 84| #2 85| #2 86| #2 87| #2 88| #2 89| #2 90| ##3 91| ##3 92| ##3 93| ##3 94| ##3 95| ###4 96| ###4
Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Wednesday 2003-12-24 06:22, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: My estimate includes all five. Of course, as in Drake's equation, each factor has an error from 10% to 900% :-) * about 10 planets per race * about 200,000 races Alberto, as I recall Drake's Equation has no factor for Planets Fallow by order of the GIM. ??? What I said is that the factors I get for Uplift have error bars similar to Drake's equation's terms: they can be 1/10 to 10 times the guesstimate. Check. Are you proposing there 2M habitable planets, some of which are Fallow or that there are, perhaps, 6M habitable planets 2M of which are *not* Fallow? No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Good. So 2M is a _reasonable_ statistical expectiation for planets that could support civilzation across 5 galaxies. Have you made any allowance for an increase in the number of habitable planets due to terraforming? (Do you need to?) No, because I suppose that this is a small factor in the last, say, 500 My. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. Lets come back to terraforming. I think that it would be a major (and s-l-o-w-l-y increasing) factor in the total number of habitable planets. BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. I am going to assume that a factor of 1:10 is the high end for an inhabited to fallow ratio if planets are leased for an average 100ky and fallow for a minimum of 500ky. What we need is a figure for mean fallow time. Lets pick 700ky. If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Vijilus
the ur species was developed in part using the system in SeJ's Uplift 2nd ed. Vijilus [note spelling change] ab-Lesh ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon As the Zhuup became productive the Lesh began to look for a second client. As members of the Tothtoon Super-Clan the Lesh had access to many species that made excellent soldiers, commandos, and some that specialized as spies. Unfortunately, none of these specialties were really what the Lesh needed given their emphasis on mercantile trade and diplomacy. The Lesh needed security guards and trustworthy espionage agents. The Lesh, though not great colonizers or explorers, had managed to lay claim to an above-average candidate species. They traded ur-species for ur-species with another Abdicator race for the proto-Vijilus. The proto-Vijilus were not a remarkably promising ur-species. The Lesh were attracted to the proto-Vijilus by the creatures remarkable suite of natural offensive and defensive talents that would serve them well as Lesh security operatives. Proto-Vijilus's survival strategy was a strange cross between a chameleon's and a cat's. Proto-Vijilus were arboreal omnivores somewhat larger than a bobcat or lynx. Life in their native forests was highly competitive and proto-Vijiluses were relatively low on the food chain despite being active hunters themselves. The quadrupedal semi-upright Proto-Vijilus were quite athletic, even acrobatic. Like Earth's chameleons proto-Vijilus hands and feet each had only two digits, resembling oven-mits. Like chameleons, proto-Vijiluses had a prehensile tail. They even had a chameleon's ability to change color. Unlike chameleons, proto-Vijiluses were warm-blooded. To conserve heat they had a fur-like covering. Proto-Vijilus fur is completely transparent and each hair is a natural optic fiber allowing proto-Vijiluses to use their chameleon ability. Proto-Vijilus sense organs were highly developed. They can sense magnetic fields. Most notably proto-Vijiluses had a total of five eye-stalks. On each eye-stalk there were two eyes. Proto-Vijiluses had *excellent* vision, even at night. Their vision was resistant to glare. Proto-Vijiluses could also produce an extraordinary variety of sounds in the normal and ultrasonic ranges, though they were not notable mimics. Proto-Vijiluses were not particularly common. They were hermaphroditic, though the population that provided most of the genetic material for the Vijilus project usually formed pair-bonded social units. What social interaction that occurred was highly ritualized. Proto-Vijilus were born live, in small annual litters. Young developed fast and resembled small adults. The Lesh preserved the proto-Vijilus's natural repertoire, and even enhanced it. Uplifted Vijiluses are excellent mimics. On the down side, Vijiluses still have their original primitive hands and are semi upright. This is not as big a problem as it might seem. A Vijilus at an office workstation often works suspended from a bar or trapeze. Vijilus prefer to hang or perch and many are agoraphobic. A few are still subject to stress atavism that causes them to freeze and camouflage when threatened. Vijilus social behavior is still very tied to ritual. They have difficulty distinguishing between Tradition, Law and ritual so they tend to be legal sticklers and have a reputation for not being very flexible. Unlike other members of the Lesh Clan, Vijilus are not gregarious nor are they empathetic. Indeed, Vijilus very much prefer the company of their own kind, and then in very limited doses. They get along with other members of Clan Lesh, but most avoid any races outside their immediate clan. Terragens who have dealt with Vijilus say that they are socially oblivious and dealing with a typical Vijilus attached to a Lesh or Zhuup diplomatic or trade mission is like dealing with a Terragen with a very serious case of Asperger's Syndrome. Vijilus are well integrated into Clan Lesh, but are not well liked outside their clan. Among members of Clan Tothtoon Vijilus have reputation for being intellectually, and not just socially, slow. Vijilus are patriotic, even jingoistic, members of Clan Lesh. They mainly work as guards and spies--no doubt this contributes to their lack of popularity outside their immediate clan. Nevertheless, the Vijilus are not noted for being strong team players. The conservative Zhuup have many disagreements with the moderate Lesh, but are instinctively loyal and hierarchical. The Lith find the Lesh charismatic and as their heir-apparent share almost completely coincident interests. The Heebi are a servitor race who worship and adore their foster patrons. The Vijilus are none of these things and often fail to tow the party line. Indeed, the Vijilus are arch-conservatives and have refused to join the League of Prudent Neutral Clans per Clan Lesh policy. Vijilus
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Thursday 2004-01-08 06:00, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: No. I propose that there are 2M planets _with_ galactic civilization settled on them. But they could be 20M or 200k. Good. So 2M is a _reasonable_ statistical expectiation for planets that could support civilzation across 5 galaxies. As a side note, Asimov's Galactic Empire includes 25M planets in a single Galaxy, all of them terraformed in the past 22,000 years. But Asimov was optimist about the existence of habitable planets, we know for sure that there can't be habitable planets around, for example, Epsilon Eridani, where Asimov placed Baleyworld-Comporellon. Stars come and go, planets come and go. The terraforming of planets should probably just keep the number of planets in a stable number. Lets come back to terraforming. I think that it would be a major (and s-l-o-w-l-y increasing) factor in the total number of habitable planets. The key word here is _slowly_. For practical purposes, we can suppose that the number is more or less constant during the lifecycle of a standard species [1 million years] BTW, I also guess that there are about 10 fallow planets for each settled planet, based on the data that a planet is usually leased for 100ky, and it is let fallow for a minimum of 500ky [usually more]. I am going to assume that a factor of 1:10 is the high end for an inhabited to fallow ratio if planets are leased for an average 100ky and fallow for a minimum of 500ky. What we need is a figure for mean fallow time. Lets pick 700ky. If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. Ok, 700ky, or 1My, don't change the final numbers very much Nope. Look. I want to write about Clan Tothtoon. To do that it would be helpful to pin down some numbers, namely: -Total number of races in O-2 Civilization now. (total number of individuals or biomass would be interesting but not critical) -Average number of clients per patron (obviously slightly more than 1) -- Distribution of access to clients among potential patrons (Members of Clan Tothtoon tend to be priviledged, the question is how priviledged.) -Total O-2 habitable planets now --- leased:fallow --- natural:terraformed --- proportion of A, B, C and homeworld leases. --- Mean number of planets per citizen race --- fairness in distributing leases. With regard to planets I visit: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL N: communicating life. N*: number of stars, site suggests 100 * 10^9 for Milky Way alone fp: fraction of stars with planets ne: number of planets where life can exist fl: fraction where life evolves fi: fraction were intelligent life evolves fc: fraction that can and do communicate fL: fraction of timewhere communicating civilization exists Galactics will colonize any planet where life evolves. fi, fc, and fL are irrelevant for calculating planets under GIM control. (Alternatively fi=1, all planets with life get infested with intelligent life. fc=1, all inhabited planets participate in Galcatic Civilization. 0.12 fL .1 since inhabitable planets spend most of their existence in fallow.) Ngim = N* fp ne fl N* = 100*10^9 per SETI fp = 0.2 (conservative per SETI) ne = 1 (conservative per SETI) fl = 0.0001 (pretty conservative, but then the GIM is only interested in planets with *complex* life.) That gives us 2M *naturally* existing planets in the Milky Way controled by the GIM and 10M naturally occuring planets under GIM control through five galaxies. If 4/5 of all GIM controlled planets are terrformed then we wind up with 50M GIM planets in five galaxies. But for ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Habitable Planets: was Notes on Uplift
On Friday 2004-01-09 05:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: If there are 2M inhabited planets then there are 14M fallow planets. At any given time there must be a total of 16M habitable planets. Ok, 700ky, or 1My, don't change the final numbers very much -Total O-2 habitable planets now --- leased:fallow --- natural:terraformed --- proportion of A, B, C and homeworld leases. --- Mean number of planets per citizen race --- fairness in distributing leases. I also think we came to some figures here. 2M *leased* planets, about 10 per citizen race. No comments on the ratio of terraformed to natural or what kinds of leases. With regard to planets I visit: http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html Some of the factors in Drake's equation are still _extremely_ innacurate. N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL N: communicating life. N*: number of stars, site suggests 100 * 10^9 for Milky Way alone fp: fraction of stars with planets Seems close to 1 :-) ne: number of planets where life can exist Seems close to 1/10^11 :-) fl: fraction where life evolves fi: fraction were intelligent life evolves fc: fraction that can and do communicate fL: fraction of timewhere communicating civilization exists Galactics will colonize any planet where life evolves. fi, fc, and fL are irrelevant for calculating planets under GIM control. In fact, these numbers _do_ apply to Uplift. fl is 1, because the Progenitors fed the planets with life. fi is 2/[total number of species that ever existed] if you accept Earthclan's supersticions, or 1/[total] if you are an Awaiter. Otherwise, this question is anathema. (Alternatively fi=1, all planets with life get infested with intelligent life. fc=1, all inhabited planets participate in Galcatic Civilization. 0.12 fL .1 since inhabitable planets spend most of their existence in fallow.) Ok. Ngim = N* fp ne fl N* = 100*10^9 per SETI fp = 0.2 (conservative per SETI) ne = 1 (conservative per SETI) SETIst are optmistic fanatics :-) fl = 0.0001 (pretty conservative, but then the GIM is only interested in planets with *complex* life.) fl can be any number :-) That gives us 2M *naturally* existing planets in the Milky Way controled by the GIM and 10M naturally occuring planets under GIM control through five galaxies. If 4/5 of all GIM controlled planets are terrformed then we wind up with 50M GIM planets in five galaxies. Ok. But it's better to go back and set the Drake factors based on what we want to get in the end. Excellent idea! N* = 100*10^9 (that is, 1.00E+11) fp = .75 (most systems have planets) ne = .25 (few could support life, partly a cheat factor) fl = 3.00E-05 (3/100,000 have life, entirely a cheat factor. Implies there are a lot of terraforming candidates) fi = 1 (ALL good planets get colonized) fc = 1 (If colonized, the setlers participate in O-2 Civ.) fL = .125 (7 times out of 8 a planet is fallow) This gives the number of planets that could *naturally* support life in the Milky Way N = 7.03E+04 5 galaxies Total natural planets under GIM control = 2.81E+06 Total natural GIM leased planets = 5N = 3.52E+05 Natural/Terraformed = 1/6 Total GIM planets (B or C leasable) = 1.69E+07 (We don't count A class leases because they are in need of terraforming.) Total GIM B or C leases at present time = 2.11E+06 Giving us about 11.1 planets per race, which is close enough to 10. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Parity: was Notes on Uplift
On Friday 2004-01-09 03:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: There are two sorts of instability. One level of instability is at the level of the lineage. The other is the stablity of the inter-species political order. Moderate or serious disparities in wealth curves mean that a lot of lineages die out. Having lineages die out is not necessarily a problem for Galactic political stability. In real life lineages are usually short lived--even in lineage oriented societies like the middle east or in Samoa. Political instability results when MAJOR lines die out. When the King dies without issues you get wars of succession. Ok. But it seems that in the Uplift Universe few lineages die, or there would be more aliances based on ancestry than on religious faith. Why? In uplift a races primary alliance is (usually) based on lineage. Its secondary alliance tends to be ideological. Lineage is small but strong, religion is big but weak. But it is _very_ unstable. I claim that the rate should be quite close to 1 client : 1 patron, so that _most_ lines would be mantained for long periods of time. Lets talk in terms of total clients uplifted during a patron's main sequence existence. In that case a replacement rate of one under total fairness gives this histogram. Ok, I get your point without the histograms :-) I propose: So, you would have 35% of _all_ species failing to have a client? That's too much IMHO. What about: [ 0- 20) : 0 clients --- some don't want clients --- some shouldn't have clients (a form of uplift failure) --- some get cheated out of clients (the Uplift universe ain't fair) [20- 88) : 1 client [88- 92) : 2 clients [92- 95) : 3 clients [95- 98) : 4 clients [98- 99) : 5 clients [99-100) : 6+ clients Having more that 8 or 9 clients is quite rare. If I did this right it should work out to about 1.1 client per patron. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Not Bush2 (Was Shrub's Conspiracy to Invade Iraq Revealed by Ex-Admin Official)
On Sunday 2004-01-11 00:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plans in the Pentagon are not the same thing as plans in the White House. I think the point is not that the Defense Dept. was doing its job but that the newly installed Bush administration was thinking about invading Iraq months before Sept. 11 gave them what they would use as an ostensible reason. Given that Dubya's entire presidency is basically about doing stuff his father couldn't, this does not surprise me. I like Thomas Friedman's idea that GW Bush's presidency is *NOT* Bush II, but Reagan III, or even better, Regan Squared. Regan made Goldwater look moderate, the W Bush administration makes Regan look moderate and Goldwater seem a half-hearted fiscal moderate, social liberal, big government pragmaticst. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Extraordinary Rendition
On Sunday 2004-01-11 13:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This guy did nothing and they treated him like he personally guided the planes into the Twin Towers by wire. Now the problem is that you cannot be certain he was not important until AFTER his, er, thorough interogation by third parties. Israeli and American intelligence experts are telling the press that the odds of infiltrating Islamist Nonstate Violent Groups is essentially nil. Either they need to become so unpopular amoung their indigenous base that INVGs become non-viable OR you pursue them through interrogation based intelligence (or citizens become squemish about abusive police practices and interogation techniques, learning to live in a significantly more dangerous world...). A big problem with interogation based intelligence is that you need to sift though a lot of noise to find signal. Perhaps you arrest and tort..., ah, thoroughly interrogate 99 basically innocent profilees to snare a single operative or active supporter. [ Operative: member of group Active Supporter: gives aid or comfort Passive Supporter: (neither participates or supports, but is passively sympathetic) ] There *IS* a very real trade off between liberty and security. SOOO... The main complaints have been about citizens of close allies, eg the UK or Canada. One rather expects them to retaliate. How long until they decide to render or indefinitely detain US Citizens? [Would the Bushies care?] How long until they warn their businessmen and tourists that visiting the US isn't safe? How long until they stop sharing anti-terrorist intel in retaliation? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
non-SAVIG
We should have some pronouncible abreviations for discussions of security oriented foreign policy. IG (Islamic group) VIG (violent Islamic group) SAIG (sayg or sa-ig, state affiliated Islamic group, usually a political party) SAVIG (sah-vig: state-affiliated violent Islamic group. This would include semi-official paramilitary groups or Pakistan sponsored Kashmiri separatists. It would also include groups seeking to overthrow a state government, like Algeria's Armed Islamic Group, a group like Hezbolla trying to force invaders to leave the territory of a state, and possibly a group like Hamas fighting a war of national liberation.) non-SAIG (non-state affiliated Islamic group. eg. Tablighi missionaries.) non-SAVIG (non-state affiliated violent Islamic group. eg Al-Qada) Example: Benjamin and Simon are critcal of the international security and international relations community of not taking macro-terrorism threats from non-SAVIGs more seriously. They are highly critical of the W. Bush administration for not listening to their peers in the Clinton administration durring the transition when the Clintonistas warned about how they had come to fear operations by non-SAVIGs. Since 9/11 not only the transparently carreerist Benjamin and Simon criticized the Bush administration for trying to turn the threat from Al-Qaeda and other non-SAVIGs into an old-fashioned state-to-state conflict, but pundits like Joyce M. Davis and Thomas Friedman have done the same. All insist that even if Iraq had WMD, the Baathist regime was inherently derterable and essentially irrelevant to the non-SAVIG security threat behind the 9/11 attack. They all point out that non-state actors, including non-SAVIGs are inherently NOT deterable. (Indeed, prior to the invasion of Iraq Friedman called war with Iraq a desirable elective war.) In short, this host of moderately liberal analysts and commentators believe that the W. Bush administration has failed to come to terms with the fact that the fundamental security threat to the USA is from non-state actors--more specifically non-SAVIGs. It is not clear whether this is an inadvertant failure on the part of the W Bush administration or an intentional policy tack indicative of the W Bush foreign affairs and international security wonks discounting non-SAVIGs as a bigger strategic security concern than traditional states. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
World leasehold ratings (was Habitable Planets)
Based on and updates: http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/places/wrldrtng.html#A_Class World leasehold ratings There are about 500 * 10^9 stars in the five galaxies. Among all these stars, only 2_810_000 planets naturally support life sufficiently complex that the planet is suitable for colonization. Fortunately, many planets have been terraformed over the ages and 16_900_000 are class B or C grade planets. A planet is normally only leased about 1/8 of the time. Most of a planet's life-span is spend in GIM enforced fallow. At any given time, 2_110_000 planets are leased from the Galactic Institute of Migration on class B, C, or Homeworld terms. Thus, the average O-2 citizen race has 10.6 planets on B, C, or Homeworld lease. A typical race might have 3 class B leaseholds, 5 class C leases, 1 class C leases of garden world quality, and a Homeworld. Races vary greatly in the degree that they use A-minus and A class leases. A-minus worlds: Any habitation on a planetary body should be leased from the GIM. Of course, most planets are not suitable for terraforming, let alone for immediate colonization. Leasing desert worlds, like Mars, greenhouse world, like Venus, iceball, rockball, and scorchball worlds is a formality. The only exception are when occupation of a desolate world might impinge on H-2 areas or, more rarely, encroach on a Machine Reserve Area. Triton like worlds are unusual because they are difficult to lease. A worlds: Planets largely devoid of life and requiring terraforming, but consequently free of most Institute of Tradition and Migration restrictions. In addition, A Class Leases are durable and negotiable. A race that successfully terraforms an A Class World can keep the world as long as it likes or transfer it to another race on Class C terms. Mars would not qualify as an A class world. It is too hostile to life and too difficult to terraform. B worlds: In O-2 space the standard remediation lease is called a Class-'B' leasehold and is issued for 50 KY. It is renewable. Progress in actively monitored by the GIM. Examples include Deemi and Garth. The GIM has trouble finding takers for B Class Leases. They are seen as involving a lot of risk and liability with relatively little prospect for reward. If bio-remediation fails the tenant might be subject to fines or other discipline. If it works, the GIM will probably let the leasehold end and return the planet to fallow status. Powerful races often try to persuade the GIM to issues leases to B grade worlds with either a Class A or Class C lease. Ready willingness to take on Class B leases in good faith is a sign of good citizenship. About 1/3 of all grade B and C planets are grade B. C worlds: Residence on Class C colony worlds is limited to no longer than 300 million years. This is the standard habitation permit issued by the G.I.M. for most O-2 planets with mature, stable biospheres. Unlike Class B leaseholds, Class C leaseholds are in short supply. Garden worlds: A semi-official classification designating particularly desirable Class C worlds. About 1/3 of all Class C worlds can be regarded as garden worlds. Garden worlds are in extremely short supply. Calafia and Earth are garden worlds, although most races would regard Calafia as having a shortage of dry land. Home worlds: Each species may designate a home world. Home world leaseholds last for the duration of a race's Main Sequence existence. Earth and Tymbrim are Home worlds. Class T lease: Occasionally a race fails to evacuate a leased world on time. In these cases the GIM often issues a transition lease. These leases last for 4,000 to 10,000 years. At the end of the lease the tenant is expected to have completely vacated the leased world. Because of irregularities stemming from pre-Contact colonization Humans have Class T leases on Atlast, Horst, and NuDawn. Deemi was originally leased as a Class T colony, but the lease was changed to Class B. --- Post-script: With the loss of Galaxy 4, the GIM now has jurisdiction over only 13_500_000 grade B and C worlds. No changes will be made to existing leases, but in the future fewer class C leases will be available. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Transcript of President Bush's Speech at NASA
Tonight ABC News said that they were only budgeting $12G for the entire program. Only $1G was new money for NASA, the other $11G would come from reshuffling NASA's budget. See: http://www.nasa.gov/about/budget/ My immediate impressions was that this is a zero sum game. The unmanned mission consituencies (roboteers and planetologists) are going getting screwed for the manned mission consituencies. --- Personally, I do not think its true that manned space flights have a low research value. They have a relatively low return in terms of pure planetology and allied sciences. Afterall, like the commenator said the primary goal for any manned space mission is bringing the crew back alive. That doesn't mean that manned space missions have a low technology return. It does mean that the technology return from manned space exploration gets concentrated in furthering the science and technology of human space travel and habitation -- which must really suck if you happen to be a planetary science person. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Tg Territories
Alberto: I come up with 10 major Terragen colonies. The problem is that Galactics wouldn't count Mars or Venus as proper leaseholds, so I get 8 leases. In fact, my exepectation is that if you asked a Galactic how many leaseholds their race had they would only report their Homeworld, B, and C class leases, and some wouldn't even include the Class B leases. (Arabs sometimes do something similar, you ask them how many kids they have and they say three boys -- most will say three boys and two girls, very few will say five kids boys and girls together. [This is partly because the Arabic word for children is ambiguous and in the strict sense means boys.]) So, Alberto, the question is should we accept that there are 8 leases and 10 colonies or do we need to invent two more leased planets? --- Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type Terragens have 9 colonies and their homeworld lease on Earth. By Galactic standards Mars and Venus do not count as proper leaseholds so Humans have only 8 B or C grade leases, and of these three are only temporary leases. --- Class A-: Mars: Venus: Galactics regard the Human efforts to terraform Mars and Venus as folly. Few Galactics would put more than a military outpost on a desert planet like Mars or a greenhouse planet like Venus. --- Class A (terraforming candidate with some life present): Humans have no Class A leases. --- Class B (ecological remediation): Deemi: Before Contact Humans had established a few small outposts on Deemi and an orbital way-station. Early Human explorers thought Deemi was too far gone to make a good colony. Nevertheless, the GIM issued Humanity a Class T lease on Deemi. This has since been converted to a Class B lease along with the obligation to provide a refuge for Uplift transportees. Dezni: A planet where mulc spiders are found. The presence of mulc spiders is testimony to how recently Dezni was returned to fallow. That it is already candidate for ecological remediation indicates how badly its former tenants treated the world. Otherwise, Dezni is in many ways a typical B grade planet. It is the Terragen's second most recently awarded leasehold. The small, young colony has been raided since the start the Streaker War, but the neither the colony nor the planet are worth much as either hostage or prizes in their own right. Horst: Horst was badly damaged in the Fututhoon aggression 50 million years ago and has not recovered on its own. It is currently in an ice age, but is otherwise pretty typical for a B grade planet. [NB this conforms to GURPS Uplift 2nd ed, and not current A4P narrative for Horst.] Omnivarium: Planet of song-birds, that will mimic any sound the settlers make. Omnivarium is ecologically robust for a B grade world. It has a strong agricultural sector and active exploitation of a local asteroid belt. After Calafia, it is the largest extra-Solar Human colony. This Human colony can probably defend itself in the present crisis. --- Class C: Calafia: Calafia is Earth's only C Class leasehold. It is unofficially regarded as a garden world, but with less than an ideal amount of dry land. The lack of dry land was no obstacle for the Terragens. It was expected that the Terragens would eventually petition to make Calafia the Neo-Dolphin homeworld. However, Calafia was invaded by Brothers of the Night, and subsequently by Soro forces resulting in a nasty three-way war. The future of Calafia is in doubt. --- Homeworld: Earth: Earth is the Human homeworld. It is a garden world extraordinare and the genetic treasure trove of the Galaxies. --- Class T: Class T leases are interim leases granted as an extension when tenants run late vacating a planet. By the time of Contact Humans had established colonies on Atlast and NuDawn and an outpost on Deemi. Shortly after the Library Institute granted Humanity a sealed Research Patent for Stellar Exploration, the Galactic Institute of Migration granted considerably leniency to Humanity and Clan Terragen by dropping all proceedings against Humans for Fallow Violations and granted Class T leases on Atlast, NuDawn, and Deemi. The lease on Deemi has since been upgraded to a Class B lease. Atlast: A rustic Human colony world. Atlast was discovered by Earth during its Bureaucracy. Its first colonists were political transportees. It is no accident that Atlast's capital city is named Gorky. Many colonists on Atlast are members of anti-modernist or anti-technology groups such as the Amish. Atlast has a reputation for liberalism bordering on xenophilia. It also boasts one of the premiere universities in Terragen space. Atlast is only leased for only 6,000 hab-years, in a compromise reached with the G.I.M. (See also, Lease of Atlast.) Atlast is in located in the Ash. It would not qualify for lease on Class C terms and the GIM is
Re: Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan
On Thursday 2004-01-15 15:08, Bryon Daly wrote: So far all money numbers announced for the Bush plan seem complete nonsense, if not outright dishonesty. We shouldn't expect George W. Bush himself to know that $12 billion is not enough to develop a spaceship. We should expect the people around Bush, and at the top of NASA, to know this. And apparently they are either astonishingly ill-informed and naïve, or are handing out phony numbers for political purposes, to get the foot in the door for far larger sums later. Yeah, the budget compared with the goal make NO SENSE. It makes so little sense that I am drawn to conspiracy theories. Corona hidden in NASA psuedo-program for space biology. (Space biologists have careers stalled for national security -- albeit really critical national security.) Modeling fusion for nuclear bombs marketed as research with high energy lasers and magnets on fusion power. Glomar Explorer mines Soviet sub, but the world is told it is vacuuming manganese nodules. Absurdly low price tag of $12G for space vehicle-moon base-manned mars expidition hides what? -- I have a hunch that strategic planners at Shrub Co have a defense initiative that needs a B-I-G reliable booster. Once they get their lifter, will the rest of the project get forgotten? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
On Thursday 2004-01-15 16:28, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: spaceship is the Crew Exploration Vehicle? How inspiring! Less inspiring than, frex, Lunar Module? The name doesn't even make sense. Who cares? Will the task of the vehicle be to explore the crew? No. Its task will be to LAND HUMAN BEINGS ON MARS . _That's_ what's inspiring about it. Who cares if its inspiring? Look I was raised to be a liberal. I feel that we should fund medicaide and take care of poor sick folk. (Heck, I am poor with chronic illnesses and would *benefit* from socialized medicine.) I feel that we should fund primary and secondary education till public schools can flush money down toilets. I feel that we should provide adequate housing for everyone. I feel ... well you get the picture. I THINK all of this would be bad public policy. When the administration announces grand plans for manned space programs i FEEL proud, excited, and--yes--even inspired. And that feeling immediately makes me suspicious. Is this fiscally responsible? Is it rational? I think, no, I *KNOW* that basing public policy on emotion IS irresponsible -- unpatriotic. In brute, lowest common denominatior terms what is in this gold-plated fools' errand for me? When Isabella sent Columbus to look for a route to the Indies she wasn't investing in exploration. Exploration was a nice side effect. Isabella's primary motivation was making a LOT OF MONEY! If we build a big new booster what will be the tangible return on investment? What about the crew vehicle? The moon colony? How the @#$% do you plan to get tangible ROI from a manned mission to Mars? If you do get ROI will it make sense in terms of opportunity cost. We have underfunded schools, biomedical research, and ageing population and military obligations we need to see to, remember. Money or national security only please. I believe that as a citizen I have a *responsibility* to resist temptation and make decisisons as a pure Philistine. As a citizen I dont care a whit about pure science, the human quest, or feel-good programs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
On Thursday 2004-01-15 12:51, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: I come up with 10 major Terragen colonies. The problem is that Galactics wouldn't count Mars or Venus as proper leaseholds, so I get 8 leases. You mean: Earth (homeworld), Mars, Venus (crap) [what about the Moon?], and the 8 colonies: Deemi, Dezni, Horst, Omnivarium, Calafia, Atlast, and NuDawn? Oops, I counted _seven_, you missed Garth. [Yes, the Moon counts as a major colony. But I didn't count it here. First we can surmise that a lot of races will colonize convenient moons, per Buyer on Jijo. Second, it is NOT terraformable so not applicable to this discussion.] So a total of 9 respectable leasholds Homeworld 1. Earth Class-C+ 2. Calafia Class-B 3. Deemi 4. Dezni 5. Garth 6. Horst 7. Omnivarium Class-T(C-) 8. NuDawn Class-T(B) 9. Atlast IIRC, there is a reference to the early explorations to Alpha Centauri and Tau Ceti, where the Ash was found. Tau Ceti should be NuDawn, for it makes a great Asimov-pun, but there is no colony around any of Alpha Centauri's stars. Maybe there's room to place one A planet around each one of the pair :-) Ok. Two problems. First, to my way of thinking a Class-A leased planet needs to have some life (probably algal mat stage) and be terraformable. Would you believe that such a planet would exist in the Alpha Centuri system? Second, how does putting a Terragen Class-A colony in Alpha Centuri help us get a 10th B or C lease? (Also, please explain Azimov joke.) Revised fan-fic follows. Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type Terragens have 10 colonies and their homeworld lease on Earth. By Galactic standards Mars and Venus do not count as proper leaseholds so Humans have only 8 B or C grade leases, and of these three are only temporary leases. --- Class A-: Mars: Venus: Galactics regard the Human efforts to terraform Mars and Venus as folly. Few Galactics would put more than a military outpost on a desert planet like Mars or a greenhouse planet like Venus. --- Class A (terraforming candidate with some life present): Humans have no Class A leases. --- Class B (ecological remediation): Deemi: Before Contact Humans had established a few small outposts on Deemi and an orbital way-station. Early Human explorers thought Deemi was too far gone to make a good colony. Nevertheless, the GIM issued Humanity a Class T lease on Deemi. This has since been converted to a Class B lease along with the obligation to provide a refuge for Uplift transportees. Dezni: A planet where mulc spiders are found. The presence of mulc spiders is testimony to how recently Dezni was returned to fallow. That it is already candidate for ecological remediation indicates how badly its former tenants treated the world. Otherwise, Dezni is in many ways a typical B grade planet. It is the Terragen's second most recently awarded leasehold. The small, young colony has been raided since the start the Streaker War, but the neither the colony nor the planet are worth much as either hostage or prizes in their own right. Garth: Heavily damaged in the Buralli Holocaust, Garth is a poster child for the Institute of Migration's ecological remediation program. It also exemplifies why most races are reluctant to take on the responsibility of a Class-B leasehold. More than 50,000 years after the initial disaster Garth's ecology is still in free-fall. Three island continents have been reduced to ecosystems based on lichen-like organisms and a handful of nearly microscopic insectoids. Other land masses have kept more genetic diversity. From a Terragen perspective the planet is even less promising since ocean chemistry precludes Neo-Dolphin colonization. Nevertheless, Garth was a moderately important Human colony prior to the Gubru invasion, and promises to be even more important in the aftermath. Horst: Horst was badly damaged in the Fututhoon aggression 50 million years ago and has not recovered on its own. It is currently in an ice age, but is otherwise pretty typical for a B grade planet. [NB this conforms to GURPS Uplift 2nd ed, and not current A4P narrative for Horst.] Omnivarium: Planet of song-birds, that will mimic any sound the settlers make. Omnivarium is ecologically robust for a B grade world. It has a strong agricultural sector and active exploitation of a local asteroid belt. After Calafia, it is the largest extra-Solar Human colony. This Human colony can probably defend itself in the present crisis. --- Class C: Calafia: Calafia is Earth's only C Class leasehold. It is unofficially regarded as a garden world, but with less than an ideal amount of dry land. The lack of dry land was no obstacle for the Terragens. It was expected that the Terragens would eventually petition to make Calafia the Neo-Dolphin homeworld. However, Calafia was invaded
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
On Thursday 2004-01-15 20:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Snip _That's_ what's inspiring about it. Who cares if its inspiring? Look I was raised to be a liberal. I feel that we should fund medicaide and take care of poor sick folk. (Heck, I am poor with chronic illnesses and would *benefit* from socialized medicine.) I feel that we should fund primary and secondary education till public schools can flush money down toilets. I feel that we should provide adequate housing for everyone. I feel ... well you get the picture. I THINK all of this would be bad public policy. I'll give up on the space program when you give up the social programs Philistine From Hell Um. I thought I was pretty clear. I HAVE given up on the social programs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
On Thursday 2004-01-15 20:58, Alberto Monteiro wrote: So a total of 9 respectable leasholds Ok *** We still miss one. First, to my way of thinking a Class-A leased planet needs to have some life (probably algal mat stage) and be terraformable. Would you believe that such a planet would exist in the Alpha Centuri system? Why not? The early explorations _did_ find ashes, which might be an indication that life could still exist on those planets. Second, how does putting a Terragen Class-A colony in Alpha Centuri help us get a 10th B or C lease? Alpha Centauri would be the 2nd lease. IIRC, at the time of Sundiver Earth had 3 colonies. Good. So you do not care that the Alpha Centuri colony is Class-A, or are you proposing that is it Class-B? Please tell me more about the Alpha Centuri colony -- or at least more about our current knowledge on the Alpha Centuri system. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
On Thursday 2004-01-15 21:22, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: We still miss one. Alpha Centauri would be the 2nd lease. IIRC, at the time of Sundiver Earth had 3 colonies. Good. So you do not care that the Alpha Centuri colony is Class-A, or are you proposing that is it Class-B? It could be anything. Probably a world in _far_ worse shape than any other, but not a dead world like Mars or Venus. Please tell me more about the Alpha Centuri colony -- or at least more about our current knowledge on the Alpha Centuri system. A double-star system, where one is Sunlike, the other smaller than the Sun, but both could have Earth-like planets in the ecologically viable zone. Proxima, the third star, is so far away and so small that it doesn't count. Alberto Monteiro It's going around the Sun-like star. What is the star's name? What is the other part of the double star? Is it close enough to influence climate on our new colony? It's your baby. Give it a name -- Portuguese maybe (or nonsense derived from Portuguese). And pick a secondary leasehold type, I won't do it for you. (I figure anything around Alpha Centuri was colonized during the Beauracray and is currently a Class-T lease.) Bear in mind that I think A-Class leases don't really count against the Galactic average of 10.6 leasholds per race. Of course any type of lease would let us square the idea that Terragens should have 10 leases. A- : Not considered a good terraforming candidate by Galactics. Eg. Mars or anything worse. A: Terraforming candidate. A+: Easy terraforming project. (Usually a down-graded B grade planet thanks to political pressure on the GIM. Terragens couldn't swing that.) B-: Needs LOTS of bio-remediation. Powerful clans get these leased on A-Class terms. B: Bio-remediation project. B+: Easy bio-remediation project. Powerful races try to get these leased on Class-C terms. C-: Unpleasant C grade planet. Often an upgraded B-grade planet. C: Desirable, ecologically diverse and stable homeworld. C+: Exceptional candidate for colonization. A garden world. (Don't pick this. We are told Calafia was Earth's first lease on a garden world.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor Why? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
When the administration announces grand plans for manned space programs i FEEL proud, excited, and--yes--even inspired. And that feeling immediately makes me suspicious. Is this fiscally responsible? Is it rational? I think, no, I *KNOW* that basing public policy on emotion IS irresponsible -- unpatriotic. In brute, lowest common denominatior terms what is in this gold-plated fools' errand for me? When Isabella sent Columbus to look for a route to the Indies she wasn't investing in exploration. Exploration was a nice side effect. Isabella's primary motivation was making a LOT OF MONEY! If we build a big new booster what will be the tangible return on investment? What about the crew vehicle? The moon colony? How the @#$% do you plan to get tangible ROI from a manned mission to Mars? If you do get ROI will it make sense in terms of opportunity cost. We have underfunded schools, biomedical research, and ageing population and military obligations we need to see to, remember. Money or national security only please. I believe that as a citizen I have a *responsibility* to resist temptation and make decisisons as a pure Philistine. As a citizen I dont care a whit about pure science, the human quest, or feel-good programs. WADR, you sound pretty emotional here . . . Well, perhaps I am. I would like a good reason to execute the Lets go to Mars program. Unfortunately, no one has given me a good reason. You will not suffer liberals fiscal mismanagement. I am a fiscal conservative. How, pray tell, is going to Mars good fiscal policy? It seems like a big waste of money to me. I'd *LIKE* to be proven wrong. But so far people have only gotten angry at me for expecting them to meet the same burden of proof they put on others. And maybe the problem is that I brought up social programs. NASA doesn't even compete with them. Should we take money from the airforce? What about from particle physics? It doesn't matter, airforce weapon systems, automated space exploration, parks, medical research, it all should meet the same burden of proof. Why, in terms of national defense or the national economy, is this program good public policy? Why should it crowd out any of a dozen other competing programs? What is the tangible benefit from the program? What will be the tangible benefits from a manned mission to Mars? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 00:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/15/2004 11:55:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everything I'm trying to do by way of numbers, is to make Alvin filthy rich whether or not he really wants to be so. William Taylor Why? You want the short answer or the summary of the full novel? It is repeatedly mentioned in Heaven's Reach that Gillian will publish Alvin's journal even if she doesn't hear back from him. The book cannot be nothing other than a success. Thereby pissing off all the septs of Jijo. In terms of GIM legal action the point is moot, but the Hoon will NOT be amused when Alvin besmirches their reputation for excellent galactic citizenship. On the otherhand, if the book were published Alvin might enjoy J. K. Rowling like income. This would make revenue from his yachting business trival, so you wouldn't need your 42 major Hoon colonies. The one single lodge was always full after one year of being on Hurumphta. Without any sort of off world publicity. After the book has been published, I envisioned that Alvin would eventually need seven lodges at that bay, and own the next five bays up and down the coast. Other than just making him successful, I wanted him to be rich enough to offer to pay for, by himself, the Uplift ceremony equipment that was left on Garth, and bring it to Hurumphta to hold a totally unnecessary Uplift Ceremony for the Rousit, who were being in danger of becoming short furry versions of dour boring humorless hoon clones. If he has JK Rowling's wealth why purchase the stuff on Garth. I thought the Humans were planning to keep the Uplift stuff on Garth. They will be needing it alot in the next few millenia. Besides, wouldn't the Guthasa and Hoon already have their own Uplift paraphernalia? Also, it would make more sense to have a cloak-n-dagger novel wherein Alvin and friends pervert a planned Rousit uplift ceremony to make them pick, say, the Tymbrimi as patrons. The Civilization of the Four Galaxies can use a diversion. The war against the Tandu isn't going very well, though of course it did instantly stop the siege of Earth We know that it'll be Huck that is the one that does the most to change hoon thinking. It is written: Huck'll bury hoon dogma. It is? Is DB having you read his drafts? Alvin just provides the capital to do so. (And that's the _short_ version.) William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
On Friday 2004-01-16 02:32, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 10:17 PM 1/15/04, Trent Shipley wrote: On Thursday 2004-01-15 20:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Um. I thought I was pretty clear. I HAVE given up on the social programs. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You have given up on social programs, but you still want the government to collect tax money from citizens and throw it at the same programs you have given up on? No. I have given up on social programs and think the government should spend little or no money on them. I think that if someone with no money shows up in an emergency room they should get no treatment even if this means that the person dies. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
Nope. If you are insolvent you should not be treated. Open access to emergency medicine is the back door is basically a disguised form of socialized medicine. It forces solvent people to take on your charity case whether they want to or not. On Friday 2004-01-16 07:03, Damon Agretto wrote: No. I have given up on social programs and think the government should spend little or no money on them. I think that if someone with no money shows up in an emergency room they should get no treatment even if this means that the person dies. Wow. So if I get into a car accident, because I don't yet have insurance, and because I'm currently walking the tight rope between solvency and bankruptcy, I should be allowed to die? I hope you were just being sarcastic! Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
On Friday 2004-01-16 13:16, Damon Agretto wrote: --- Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. If you are insolvent you should not be treated. Open access to emergency medicine is the back door is basically a disguised form of socialized medicine. It forces solvent people to take on your charity case whether they want to or not. Well Trent then I guess I won't depend on you should my life ever be threatened. While we're at it, lets get rid of unemployment support, wellfare, and any other government charities since we're being forced to provide for those leeches too... Damon. Yep. If the space-cadets must justify their pet project in objective terms, so must bleeding hearts. The main reason to keep welfare programs is the sentimental belief that we (meaning those lucky -- or moral -- enough to be taxpayers) are morally obliged to take care of all our fellow citizens, or even human beings. I can think of only a few objective reasons why the commonwealth should provide subsidies to ne'er do wells like myself. 1) Public stability requires providing the lumpen with bread and circuses. TV provides cheap circus. The question remains what is the optimally expedient expenditure on bread to maintain political stability and confidence in the status quo. (It also begs the question of what constitutes bread. Americans seem to think that food is bread but housing and medical care dont. In behavioral science terms it is a question of moral economy. There is also related issues like the economic value of keeping homeless folk out of mercantile and 'respectable' neighborhoods.) 2) The economic stabilization that is a side-effect of entitlement programs. 3) Accounting that proves the program is counter-intuitively cost-effective. (Note that in the face of this kind of accounting, eg that providing treatment in prision for alchol and drug addiction is cost effective, conservatives raise moral objections [that we dismiss under this theory of amoral legislation] while libertarians say that surely there are unaddressed strategic costs of codling that result in expensive dependency.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 09:23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/16/2004 3:04:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The book cannot be nothing other than a success. Thereby pissing off all the septs of Jijo. In terms of GIM legal action the point is moot, but the Hoon will NOT be amused when Alvin besmirches their reputation for excellent galactic citizenship. Gillian's report would be enough to do that. First: A year after Streaker gets back to Earth, the book hasn't been published. That fact can't be changed. So I worked with it. It took almost a full year or argument, mostly in secret, to get a judgement from the Galactic Institutes that no action whatsoever will be taken against any race involved with anything that took place on Jijo. The point is mute. No one can go back to Jijo to clean up anything. Only then can the book be printed. And Alvin doesn't care much for standard hoon behavior patterns. But he's much more respectful of them than either Huck or Mudfoot. The former teaching classes and the latter hacking into the Hurumphta press network. Unfortunately, the legal aspect is only half the problem with Alvin's book. The bigger and more intractable problem would be PR. -- Jophur and the like would have strongly *suspected* Humans of founding sooner colonies. Given Human Clans psycho-historical prospects Humans would be idiots not to get themselves some colonies. Alvin gives the Jophur proof. -- Tytlal and Tymbrimi have the same motives as Humans. Now the Galactics need to check every Noor population to make certain it isn't providing cover for a Tytlal crypto-colony. -- Traeki aren't Jophur so they won't be labled a race of sooner scofflaws. But if there is one Traeki colony there might be more. Jophur are not the sort who forgive those who bear bad news. They will hold Hoon collectively responsible because they let Alvin publish his book. -- Glavers, who one surmises are not extinct or retired, will not be amused about having their plot discovered, even if they are doubly protected from GIM prosecution. -- G'kek are extinct, or so everyone thought. So do they have other sooner colonies? If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so Glavers with him? What will do Obeyors do about that? -- Queuens will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. -- Urs will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. Worse, Urs would already have been suspected as a species very prone to soonerism because they are so driven to reproduction. -- Hoon will be in tripple jeoprody if Alvin publishes. First they will be embarassed by clear evidence that Hoon committed an act of fallow infestation. Second, the Hoon reputation for being impeccable, responsible Galactic Citizens of the higest probity will be seriously damaged. Accountants do NOT like having their reputation for integrity impeached. Think Arthur Anderson Third, the Galactics practice collective responsibility. None of the embarased races will be happy that a Hoon besimirched their individual reputations. They will be mad at the Hoon, not just Alvin. Moreover, the Obeyor--and especially the Jophur--will insist in no uncertain terms that the Hoon unequivocally demonstrate that they are harboring no G'Kek survivors. Alvin might make as much $ as Rowling but he will get to live like Rushdie--assuming the Hoon don't execute him themselves. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
On Friday 2004-01-16 18:36, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/16/2004 5:17:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Unfortunately, the legal aspect is only half the problem with Alvin's book. The bigger and more intractable problem would be PR. -- Jophur and the like would have strongly *suspected* Humans of founding sooner colonies. Given Human Clans psycho-historical prospects Humans would be idiots not to get themselves some colonies. Alvin gives the Jophur proof. Mute point. The Rothen sold them the proof over a year ago. They did? The problem with intelligence sold by the Rothen is that its not usually exactly the sort of thing you can go public with. -- Tytlal and Tymbrimi have the same motives as Humans. Now the Galactics need to check every Noor population to make certain it isn't providing cover for a Tytlal crypto-colony. Noor exist elsewhere than Jijo? I have a distinct recollection that somewhere in the Jijo trilogy we are told that Noor are a common pest throughout known space. Many had looked at uplifting them before the Tymbrimi but decided that Noor were just intractable genetic material. -- Traeki aren't Jophur so they won't be labled a race of sooner scofflaws. But if there is one Traeki colony there might be more. Jophur are not the sort who forgive those who bear bad news. They will hold Hoon collectively responsible because they let Alvin publish his book. There's been a g'Kek living openly on Hurumphta for a year. How could it get worse? I had assumed that she was hardly living openly. Huck would be a s-e-c-r-e-t. -- Glavers, who one surmises are not extinct or retired, will not be amused about having their plot discovered, even if they are doubly protected from GIM prosecution. Glavers exist outside of Jijo and Galaxy Four? It depends. My impression from the Jijo trilogy was that the Glaver colony on Jijo had to devolve to pay off a pending Glaver debt. Meanwhile, Glavers remained Galactic citizens approaching Elder status. The Agents Handbook (which I try to avoid using as a source) says that Glavers suddenly went missing from Galactic society about 1000 years ago, though that's not too unusual. -- G'kek are extinct, or so everyone thought. So do they have other sooner colonies? If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so Glavers with him? I don't think so. If any were left over from the Hydro incedent, they stayed on Streaker. They certainly weren't on Kazkark. Sorry, make that: If Alvin, that G'kek lover, came back from Jijo did the playboy bring any of those so-and-so g'Kek with him? What will do Obeyors do about that? Wonder why the Library lied to them? -- Queuens will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. But take Alvin's money for their artwork/architecture. Darn tootin'. Business is business. -- Urs will be embarased when a Hoon reveals their species commited an act of fallow infestation. Worse, Urs would already have been suspected as a species very prone to soonerism because they are so driven to reproduction. Yup. Everyone is at fault. But remember, both the Rothen and the Jophur communicated all of this back to the other four galaxies. Nothing in Alvin's journal is going to give the Civilization of the Four Galaxies any new information. I doubt the Rothen blabed this back to Civilization. The last thing they want is someone discovering their gene-raiding activities. That might even lead to Institute detectives taking this Rothen problem seriously. Criminal races DO NOT want publicity. Any info they provide would also be suspect. You might be onto something with the Jophur. I can't remember if any made it back to Civilization with info about Jijo. I think Brin arranged it so they didn't. -- Hoon will be in tripple jeoprody if Alvin publishes. First they will be embarassed by clear evidence that Hoon committed an act of fallow infestation. Which the Rothen and Jophur already know. Rothen reports can be denied. I am not convinced the Jophur do know. Second, the Hoon reputation for being impeccable, responsible Galactic Citizens of the higest probity will be seriously damaged. And Mudfoot is on a constant campaign to do even more damage. Alvin just wants to go on sailing. So? Accountants do NOT like having their reputation for integrity impeached. But they do like the idea that no GI is going to set any punishments. Think Arthur Anderson Think Arthur Treacher. The fish are already in the fryer. No need to stick your hand/claw/tenticle/prehensile penis into the vat to try and pull out the pieces. Third, the Galactics practice collective responsibility. None of the embarased races will be happy that a Hoon
Re: Martian Emotion (was Easterbrook on Bush's NASA plan)
On Friday 2004-01-16 18:30, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 01:49 PM 1/16/2004 -0700 Trent Shipley wrote: I can think of only a few objective reasons why the commonwealth should provide subsidies to ne'er do wells like myself. What a Nietschian hell Exactly! Libertarian paradise, Social darwinist hell, same thing. The answer, of course, is that every human life is precious... and indeed, in your ow terms, every human life is a unique resource. Every human life saved has the potential to reap enormous returns. JDG Yes, but in my system an actuary can tell you the odds of realizing a return on that resource and how big the present value of that return is likely to be. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon Leases and Colonies (Was Notes on Uplift)
Trent, do you at least agree with the idea that books actually published as books have an environmental surtax, and also a higer royalty to the author than a book only published electronically. In our world or in Uplift? (Galactics *ONLY* publish books electronically.) (It's a fad to read about Jijo by acting as if you were actually on Jijo.) It is? Where? When? Who? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
On Friday 2004-01-16 07:49, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Good. So you do not care that the Alpha Centuri colony is Class-A, or are you proposing that is it Class-B? It could be anything. Probably a world in _far_ worse shape than any other, but not a dead world like Mars or Venus. Please tell me more about the Alpha Centuri colony -- or at least more about our current knowledge on the Alpha Centuri system. A double-star system, where one is Sunlike, the other smaller than the Sun, but both could have Earth-like planets in the ecologically viable zone. Proxima, the third star, is so far away and so small that it doesn't count. It's going around the Sun-like star. What is the star's name? What is the other part of the double star? Is it close enough to influence climate on our new colony? Ok, the _technical_ names of the stars that make up the Alpha Centauri system are Alpha Centauri A [the Sun-like star], Alpha Centauri B [almost Sun-like, but smaller; it's still in the spectral class that usually is considered fit to have Earth-like planets] and Alpha Centauri C aka Proxima Centauri [a red dwarf, so far away from A and B that we don't know if it's gravitationally bound to them or not. I would guess that it's _not_ bound to them] The A+B pair is sufficiently far away not to influence the climate, but bright enough to lighten the night sky in such a way that the observation of stars would be difficult [imagine something brighter than the Moon but pointwise like Venus] It's your baby. Give it a name -- Portuguese maybe (or nonsense derived from Portuguese). Ah, I don't have enought creativity to make up things! :-) Alberto Monteiro the creativity challenged Fine. But at least pick a class for the lease. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Martian Emotion
On Sunday 2004-01-18 13:08, Robert J. Chassell wrote: Robert J. Chassell wrote: * An air-augmented chemical rocket. Currently, rockets carry all the oxygen they need with them. An air-augmented chemical rocket operates part of the time as a ram jet, taking in oxygen from the atmosphere. This reduces the mass of oxidizer the rocket must carry. I don't see - philosophically - how this can be an advantage. Ramming air is essentially a collision problem, that significantly reduces the speed of the rocket. If you carry the oxigen with yourself, it is moving with the speed of the rocket. Yes, there are problems with a ram jet. But when you carry the oxygen with yourself, you have to accelerate it. That takes a great deal of oxidizer and fuel. The best estimates I have seen are that a combined cycle rocket/ram engine has the equivalent of a specific impulse in the 600s (i.e., the equivalent of a pure rocket with an exhaust velocity of 6 km/sec, although its actual exhaust velocity is lower), where a nuclear thermal engine has a specific impulse of 800 - 900 (8 - 9 km/sec) and a hydrogen-oxygen engine, like the Space Shuttle main engines, has a specific impulse in the 400s, (4 km/sec) and its solid fuel rocket engines -- which enable the shuttle to boost -- are have a lower specific impulse. First point: As I see it there are three ways to get things into orbit (or a battle) 1) Use a gun or variation on the theme of a gun. Cheapest if you want to put many payloads on targets. Hard on payloads. 2) Airplane. Intermediate 3) Missle (usu. a rocket) 2nd Point: Why couldn't you build a lauch vehicle with a fan-jet 1st stage (recoverable), Ram or scram jet 2nd stage (stage and recovery both optional) and a rocket 2nd or 3rd stage (disposible)? Then you wouldn't need a combination ram-jet/rocket. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift Timeline (was Tg Territories)
Dear Alberto: The new colony will be an A+/B- world in orbit around Alpha Centuri A. It will be called Easter. Its residents will be called 'Pascuans'. Before do a write-up I needed some dates, so I re-collated the timeline. Let me know what you think. 1) I got my old timeline and fixed it. (I was surprised at how badly I had edited it.) 2) I got Lenagh's timeline and merged it. 3) I merged SeJ's GURPS 2nd ed timeline. 4) I added some dates for pre-contact interstellar colonization. NB! I would like to make contact and all the future fictional dates 100 years in the future. The date for human NLS interstellar engines (2061 CE) is absurd. 2161CE seems safely remote. -- Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] BYA = Billion Years Ago, MYA = Million Years Ago, KYA=Thousand Years Ago; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS=Steve Sloan addition. --- 15 BYA: Big Bang (SS) 3.1 - 2.8 BYA: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8 - 2.2 BYA: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8-2.75 BYA: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75 BYA: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71 BYA: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7 BYA: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.3 BYA: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.305 BYA: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.263 BYA: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615 BYA: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate 2.26 BYA (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies (according to Inheritor legend). 2.26 BYA (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258 BYA: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256 BYA: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258 BYA. 2.253 BYA: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. 11 galaxies. 2.25 BYA: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24 BYA: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23 BYA: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22 BYA: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202 BYA (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202 BYA (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15 BYA: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1 - 1.9 BYA: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9 BYA: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6 BYA: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4 BYA: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded.
Soro Religion
Are Soro Obeyors? What about Gubru? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Attn Brin: Hoon Genius
The evident enthusiasm of a certain list member has given me cause to ask myself whether Hoon, as a literary creation, might have broad-based apeal. I think the answer must be affirmative. Indeed, Hoon characters could have such strong psycho-cultural charisma that they would be the key to super-star levels of comic, book, movie, and above all branding success. The first item that strikes me about Hoon is the degree of psychological identification that they can elicit. I am reminded of Stan Lee being interviewed about kid sidekicks in comic books. He hated them, but the readers identifed with the sidekicks and sales went up. More importantly, I am remined of tatoo artists who told me, in the course of researching a term paper in grad school, that the most popular subject for tatoos was the WB's Tazmanian Devil. They couldn't explain why, but I think I can. Taz is both Archetypal -- representing the id driven oaf -- and a strong reference for psychological identification. A lot of men and women, of whom many are given to tatoos, identify with the loutish, gooberish Taz. In a sense, Hoon are Taz-Lite, though it is not fair to end the story there. Taz fans like professional wrestling, monster trucks and NASCAR. In constrast, Hoon fans might like NASCAR but they also like soccer and do not like monster trucks and pro-wrestling. Hoon are not so much goobers as surfer dudes. [I say surfer dude because yachtsman rather limits our target audience.] Of course, Hoon are not merely laid back surfer dudes, they are surfer dudes trapped in cubicles. This introduces an element of Walter ? Mitty. Even more, we get Arthur from the Tic. Hoon give us Dilbert meets Taz, or even more, Dilbert realizes his inner Taz. But unlike Arthur, our Hoon Hero or Heroes do not escape their nerdy existince merely to become hillariously campy homosexual nerds in tights and capes. We may know that most nerds traped in cubicles are in cubicles because they are nerds, and not the otherway about. Nevertheless, there is hardly a nerd who does not fantasize that he is a hero stuck in a nerd's cubicle. What's more many of those cubicle drones long to realize their inner surfer dude. Why not do both at once? The Hoon angle is even better, because everyone resents bureaucracy. Hoon give you the merchandisible opportunity to pander to that anti-bureaucratic resentment at every turn. So the formula is simple: Surfer dude (read Hoon) is traped in cubicle. Surfer dude escapes cubicle. Surfer dude realizes inner surfer dude. [Realizing inner surfer dude allows] surfer dude makes a better world. Surfer dude becomes [human] hero (ala Batman or the Shadow) I [freely] advise you to produce a Hoon-based series of comic books. I do NOT believe that comic books are in themselves good business. I think comic books are a great way to create merchandisible iconic brands. Unfortunately, I do not see Alvin and Huck as good candidates for the job of heroes. When I imagine the adventures of Alvin, Huck, and Mudfoot I keep comming up with Miss Marple or Murder She Wrote. Of course, Nancy Drew and the Hardie Boys used to work with the highly desirable and perhaps an updated version could again. But teens should not be your target market. Teens have never experienced cubicles, thus they have no need for cubicle emacipation. Men 20-50 do have the cubicle experice and emacipation need. One possible story starter would be a group of three or four Hoonish reluctant space pallidins in their hypespace surfing free-trader. The story starts when our heroes: -- win the lottery -- get their hyperspace sailing vessel as a gift from mysterious retirees -- win a lottery that was fixed by mysterious retirees. They quit their accounting jobs, buy a ship and go sailing around the Galaxies being good natured laid-back louts, goofing off, buying and selling stuff, and doing good. Along the way they might: -- Expose the corruption of an Enron-like super-giant-pan-galactic-mega-corporation spoiling their plans for souless globalization and saving small investors. -- Disprove Jophur lies that Terragens are planning to develop nanotech based WMD. [Not for distribution in the USA] -- Stop religious fundamentalists from hijacking the post-Garth Gubru reform movement. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Gender selection
On Tuesday 2004-01-20 17:29, ritu wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: This is a disturbing article (with some graphic description) about gender selection in Asia: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3990133/ Have you read Elizabeth Bumiller's May You Be the Mother of a Hundred Sons ? The methods of female infanticide mentioned by her are rather disturbing too. About the article above, this ridiculous preference for boys is now visible in the male/female ratio, at least in my home state Haryana. We seem to have ~ 786 women for every 1000 men. There is a shortage of suitable brides[remember, we are talking about a patriarchal society where the marriages are arranged with due consideration to caste and economic status...well, horoscopes too, but that isn't really relevant] and demands for the same have become a normal feature in local politics [ Find me a good girl to marry and you can have my vote]. A lot of men are now forced to 'buy' brides from neighbouring states and countries and then they try to pretend that the Tibetan girl minding the stove is actually a Harayanvi jat girl from a neighbouring village One of these days, one of these idiots might actually figure out that they need the girls, even if just to ensure the next generation of boys...but I am not holding my breath. Ritu Bully for not holding your breath. It is a classic problem in economics. Rational action by individual actors produces irrational results in the aggregate. 1) It is very advantageous in political-economic terms for a couple to have a son. They behave rationally and have sons. 2) In the agregate this results in a shortage of women. (This is not unusual demographically. Historically one goes to war. This kills of young men and produces a crop of foreign women slaves that the young men then rape to produce more men. In short, powerful or affluent societies with a surplus of men import women.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Planet Easter
Planet Easter Humans discovered that the second planet from Alpha Centuri A had life in 197_BxY. They sent a probe to the planet in 166_BxY and a near-light speed manned mission in 151_BxY. In the wake of Human exploration, Humans started calling the planet Easter after a desolate island in Earth's Pacific Ocean. When Humans established a colony on Easter in 68_BxY. Easter narrowly missed out on the privilege of being Earth's first extra-Solar colony, NuDawn was founded in 70_BxY. GIM records indicate that Easter was originally terraformed into an O-2 friendly planet. Today Easter is an ecological basket case. Fifty million years ago Easter was a colony for a grasping race nearing the end of its lease. Easter's atmosphere carried an unusually large load of CO-2 and high carbon load over all. Its ecology had been industrialized and was far below recommended levels of diversity. Then the Fututhoon War reached Easter. In an afternoon, the ancient race's colony on Easter was utterly destroyed. Easter's plant life was used to warm temperatures and abundant CO-2. Now the source of CO-2 and Methane was abruptly gone. Plants used up almost all of the atmospheric carbon and no more came. Worse, without the greenhouse gasses, the planet's temperature crashed. More plants died, and the cycle fed on itself. After the disaster, the GIM dropped the ball. Easter was never surveyed again. Researchers speculate that whatever caused the powers-that-be to loose track of Earth also effected Alpha Centuri and Easter. When Earth found Easter it was in a permanent ice age, and it was at record lows. In effect, Easter was having an ice age within its permanent ice age. When Humans colonized Easter it had no terrestrial fauna larger than a mouse, scrub but no trees, and no coral reefs. On top of its already harsh climate and depleted biosphere, Easter has an eccentric orbit that takes it from one edge of habitable zone to the other plus a 40-degree axial tilt (see HTML table at end of mail). Because of its harsh conditions Easter did not flourish like NuDawn or Atlast, despite its proximity to Earth. The Bureaucracy did transfer some population to Easter and Mars, so by Contact about 100,000 souls lived on Easter. Alpha Centuri has no known jump-line transfer point. The closest commercially or strategically useful transfer point is actually located in Sol's outer system. Thus, Easter became more important after Contact than before. Earth's military planners saw it as providing Earth with critical strategic depth. It also could be a threat in non-Human hands so it had to be denied to the Human Clan's enemies. Fortunately, the GIM was happy to leave Easter in Human hands, and granted Human a Class-T(B) leasehold on Easter. In the decades between Contact and the Wolfling War, New York put a major military garrison on Easter. However, the colony itself was neglected. Ecological reconstruction met Galactic expectations, but lagged behind efforts on every other colony. Its Human population remained stable, although it was matched by equal numbers of Neo-Chim and the planets oceans acquired a tiny population of Neo-Dolphins. Easter's close proximity to Earth has made it a prime candidate for Terragen Ecological Reconstruction Service research on arctic and oceanic habitat restoration. It also makes it an excellent candidate for ERS basic training. Easter also has the distinction of being the favorite destination for Terragen senior citizens donating services to the ERS. Humans were openly politicking to use their new-found influence on the GIM to get Easter's temporary lease finalized as a Class-A lease. The plan was to present the planet as a present to Neo-Chimps at their Third Stage Uplift Ceremony. Of course, given the fact that Terragens hold their planets in common through the Terragen's Council, the gift would be symbolic unless the Council dissolved. During the Siege of Earth, the anti-Wolfling coalition had to neutralize Easter to secure their rear. Despite its large garrison, the Soro captured Easter relatively easily. After occupying Easter, the Soro immediately angled to get it leased to [A4P] Bahtwin on Class-A terms. The Streaker's return, the lifting of the Siege of Earth and subsequent space-quake left the Soro garrison on Easter isolated. We expect that the Wolflings and their allies are planning a NLS expedition to relieve Easter. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Easters Eccentric Seasons
Sorry, forgot this:
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thstorms/th
Re: Uplift Timeline (was Tg Territories)
On Monday 2004-01-19 01:55, The Fool wrote: From: Trent Shipley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12 MYA: The last recorded wolfling race, the Paranaj, is discovered. Within 1000 years it is extinct. 52 KYA: The last recorded wolfling race, the Paranaj, is discovered. Within a thousand years, it is extinct. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Made a couple of changes - Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] BYA = Billion Years Ago, MYA = Million Years Ago, KYA=Thousand Years Ago; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS=Steve Sloan addition. --- 15 BYA: Big Bang (SS) 3.1 - 2.8 BYA: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8 - 2.2 BYA: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8-2.75 BYA: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75 BYA: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71 BYA: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7 BYA: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.3 BYA: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.305 BYA: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.263 BYA: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615 BYA: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate 2.26 BYA (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies (according to Inheritor legend). 2.26 BYA (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258 BYA: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256 BYA: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258 BYA. 2.253 BYA: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. 11 galaxies. 2.25 BYA: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24 BYA: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23 BYA: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22 BYA: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202 BYA (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202 BYA (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15 BYA: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1 - 1.9 BYA: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9 BYA: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6 BYA: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4 BYA: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded. 1.1 BYA: Seven galaxies. Memnetic plagues lead to lawless warfare and spread of Ash. 830 MYA: Temporary loss of contact with Galaxy 5. Earth's seas begin to explode with multicellular life. 620 MYA: The ecologically insensitive Lions dominate the Galaxies. Ash spreads through 30% of Galaxy One and 20
Re: Uplift Timeline (was Tg Territories)
On Tuesday 2004-01-20 20:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/20/2004 8:04:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lost track of which galaxy is which number here. I didn't so much loose track of each Galaxy as give up on tracking them. I just tried to keep a running count of how many were in contact with the core. Just in case... 141 MYA: [Contacting Aliens entry ignored.] I don't have a copy handy. I don't remember which entry this is. 141 MYA all major sapient races form a union, slowly regaining confidence [after Second Gronin Collapse]. But I do know that as presented in Contacting Aliens, Earth's entire age of dinosaurs occured outside of the current Galactic Civilization. What do you mean by outside? I think it was at that time the lost Galaxy Seven which was renamed as Galaxy Two when reconnected. Having the dinosaurs outside of Galactic Civilization is canonical to whatever Brin is going to eventually write. (We just don't know why yet.) Embarrass the Soro? Maybe they have traces of Earth DNA. William Taylor - A: Why are you pouring plaster into the gravesite of the author you liked so much? B: One last time--I wanted to see the plot thicken. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Attn Brin: Hoon Genius
What ever happened to Tug. He left Kazzkark with Alvin for Hurumphta, but he/it/they (whatever) didn't make the cut for Alvin's last journal entry. Didn't the Neo-Fin kill him by accident (shoot on sight as a Jophur) when the Streaker rescued the kids? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Tg Territories
Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type --- I have altered the entry on Horst. I no longer think SeJ's GURPS Uplift 2nd ed and the A4P Encyclopedia are incompatible. An entry for Easter has been added. --- Terragens have 10 colonies and their homeworld lease on Earth. By Galactic standards Mars and Venus do not count as proper leaseholds so Humans have only 8 B or C grade leases, and of these three are only temporary leases. --- Class A-: Mars: Venus: Galactics regard the Human efforts to terraform Mars and Venus as folly. Few Galactics would put more than a military outpost on a desert planet like Mars or a greenhouse planet like Venus. --- Class A (terraforming candidate with some life present): Humans have no Class A leases. --- Class B (ecological remediation): Deemi: Before Contact Humans had established a few small outposts on Deemi and an orbital way-station. Early Human explorers thought Deemi was too far gone to make a good colony. Nevertheless, the GIM issued Humanity a Class T lease on Deemi. This has since been converted to a Class B lease along with the obligation to provide a refuge for Uplift transportees. Dezni: A planet where mulc spiders are found. The presence of mulc spiders is testimony to how recently Dezni was returned to fallow. That it is already candidate for ecological remediation indicates how badly its former tenants treated the world. Otherwise, Dezni is in many ways a typical B grade planet. It is the Terragen's second most recently awarded leasehold. The small, young colony has been raided since the start the Streaker War, but the neither the colony nor the planet are worth much as either hostage or prizes in their own right. Garth: Heavily damaged in the Buralli Holocaust, Garth is a poster child for the Institute of Migration's ecological remediation program. It also exemplifies why most races are reluctant to take on the responsibility of a Class-B leasehold. More than 50,000 years after the initial disaster Garth's ecology is still in free-fall. Three island continents have been reduced to ecosystems based on lichen-like organisms and a handful of nearly microscopic insectoids. Other land masses have kept more genetic diversity. From a Terragen perspective the planet is even less promising since ocean chemistry precludes Neo-Dolphin colonization. Nevertheless, Garth was a moderately important Human colony prior to the Gubru invasion, and promises to be even more important in the aftermath. Horst: Horst was badly damaged in the Fututhoon aggression 50 million years ago and has not recovered on its own. It is currently in an ice age, but is otherwise pretty typical for a B grade planet. Like Deemi, Horst was settled before Contact, originally given a Class-T license, then upgraded to a Class-B license. Horst is a cultural anthropologist's paradise. Many of its inhabitants belong to small settlements with distinct cultures that have rejected modernity. Some are actually technologically regressed societies. Just before the Tandu invasion a Rosh with two Kosh attendants was on an official GUI study mission to give Horst a special status as a redemption preserve. The Tandu have been unable to account for the whereabouts of the august Retired member of Clan Tothtoon and his companions, who themselves enjoyed elder status. Omnivarium: Planet of song-birds, that will mimic any sound the settlers make. Omnivarium is ecologically robust for a B grade world. It has a strong agricultural sector and active exploitation of a local asteroid belt. After Calafia, it is the largest extra-Solar Human colony. This Human colony can probably defend itself in the present crisis. --- Class C: Calafia: Calafia is Earth's only C Class leasehold. It is unofficially regarded as a garden world, but with less than an ideal amount of dry land. The lack of dry land was no obstacle for the Terragens. It was expected that the Terragens would eventually petition to make Calafia the Neo-Dolphin homeworld. However, Calafia was invaded by Brothers of the Night, and subsequently by Soro forces resulting in a nasty three-way war. The future of Calafia is in doubt. --- Homeworld: Earth: Earth is the Human homeworld. It is a garden world extraordinare and the genetic treasure trove of the Galaxies. --- Class T: Class T leases are interim leases granted as an extension when tenants run late vacating a planet. By the time of Contact Humans had established colonies on Atlast and NuDawn and an outpost on Deemi. Shortly after the Library Institute granted Humanity a sealed Research Patent for Stellar Exploration, the Galactic Institute of Migration granted considerably leniency to Humanity and Clan Terragen by dropping all proceedings against Humans for Fallow Violations and granted Class T leases on Atlast, NuDawn, and Deemi. The lease on Deemi has since been
Energy Independence
I have seen a couple of liberal foreign policy wonks say the real strategic asset in the Middle East would be energy independence. The logic goes something like this. The Middle East has four major strategic factors. 1) Petroleum. a distant 2) Israel a distant 3) Location. It's next to everything and sometimes you want to use the Suez Canal or fly over it. 4) Angry people that it sometimes exports. If it weren't for oil we could ignore Saudi Arabi, Iraq and Iran. If Americans weren't such petroleum junkies the Middle East would be less important than sub-Saharan Africa. (Note, it is not enough just to avoid Middle Eastern oil, since there is a global market for crude.) So these pundits, who know foreign policy but nothing more than any lay person about engineering, say it is obvious. Tax and regulate energy consumption (especially petroleum), build nuke plants, dam any remaining rivers, and spend a *LOT* of money researching conservation and alternative energy sources--especially substitutes for petroleum. Then spend the money you raised from the new energy taxes to subsidize implementing the new technologies. Questions: 1) What are the costs and benefits of energy taxation as a means to reduce demand for strategic independence? 2) Is there any hope that research would produce a substitute for petroleum and natural gas based alternatives? (My suspicion is that this is where it falls down, that energy experts [read oil economists and executives] believe that natural gas and crude are the only viable energy sources. 2a) What about coal gas coversion? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift philosophy and demography
UPLIFT PHILOSOPHY AND DEMOGRAPHY Uplift Philosophy, Ethics, and Scarcity Uplift is the most important activity in Main Sequence Galactic Civilization. Among the Oxygen Breathing Order Uplift is regulated by the Galactic Uplift Institute and Tradition. Tradition further dictates that the interests of a race being uplifted be represented by its Uplift Consort, what Terragens often call the Uplift Godparent. The Traditions of Uplift are rich, complex, and sensitive to cases and context. Nevertheless, there are some universals. Most important, the process of Uplift must be fair, compassionate, and never contrary to the long-term interests of the client race. Also, the any race should have high levels of potential, minimizing the amount of genetic engineering necessary to produce viable Galactic citizens. In addition, Tradition dictates that extra care must be taken when a client race has problematic talents. Psychic and probability manipulating abilities are particularly notorious for complicating uplift projects. Patrons are encouraged to uplift clients with the intention of fitting them into political-economic niches. Some goals, however, are disallowed by Tradition. Uplift projects cannot produce a race prone to wide-spread suffering. Chronic, widespread physical pain is completely disallowed, and psychological suffering is worse. Also, the project should not result in an overspecialized race. A race is automatically regarded as overspecialized if it amounts to an intelligent biological tool. (This does not mean it is _per se_ illegal to produce intelligent biological tools, but a tool-making project requires a special, difficult to obtain license approved by both the Galactic Foresight Organization and the GUI.) Finally, any Uplift project cannot produce a race with a slave mentality or that is exclusively fit for a servile role. In positive terms, the end product of an uplift project should be intelligent enough to read and participate fully as a Galactic citizen. It should be rational. It should be reasonably independent, and should not require continual management by another race. (It is permissible for two or more races to be symbiotic. In this case all parties to the symbiosis should have roughly equal amount of power. Also, it is desirable that all parties be uplifted within the same project.) Above all, any uplifted race should be responsible. It should be able to understand and conform to Galactic Tradition, at least in theory. Furthermore, any Galactic Citizen should have some abilities. A race need not have all the Traditionally desirable abilities, nor need it regularly exercise all the abilities that it theoretically possesses. One ability that a mature race must have is the ability to control its own population. Several abilities are highly desirable. Among these highly desirable abilities are the ability to engage in intellectual or scholarly discourse, the ability to successfully engage in commerce, the ability of a race to hold its own in warfare, the ability to interact with other races and engage in diplomacy, the ability to pilot starships, and an aspiration to uplift clients. These abilities are so critical that the lack of any one is regarded by many as a serious embarrassment to the patron responsible for the lack and a lesser embarrassment to any associated uplift consorts. Failure to abide by the standards and Traditions of Uplift can result in charges of Uplift Malfeasance. Consequences for convicted patrons or complicit consorts can be severe. Stability and the Number of Races The replacement rate for O-2 races is about 1.1 client race per Galactic Citizen. The average life expectancy for a Galactic Citizen from the time of its Stage-1 Uplift Ceremony until it Passes On is 1*10^6 hab-years. At any given time there are about 200_000 O-2 races in various stages of development and about 550*10^12 O-2 individuals in the Galaxies. The number of races and individuals in O-2 Civilization increases over time. The rate of increase, however, is very slow. Even over an O-2 races lifespan, the increase in the number of Galactic Citizen Races will be imperceptible. It is widely believed that there is a chronic shortage of quality ur-populations. This shortage is entirely a result of Tradition, Bureaucracy, and economics. First, what constitutes an adequate level of potential is somewhat arbitrary. The Traditional minimum threshold for potential is high enough that new candidate ur-populations are fairly rare. Also, the tradition that there must be a one-to-one connection between an ur-population and its form as an uplifted Galactic Citizen Race. Logically, one ur-population could be used as the source of several uplift projects, but doing so is an unconscionable violation of Tradition. The Tradition excluding ur-populations living on fallow planets from uplift candidacy also
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Tuesday 2004-01-27 15:35, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Some comments: 2.8 - 2.2 BYA: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. It seems that what is implied by the text of Contact Aliens is that _early_ in this period Galaxy 1 and Galaxy 2 became linked, and then a horrible War began, with total annihilation of O-2 civ, except for the Progenitors. This led them to Uplift. Yep. 2.3 BYA: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.305 BYA: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. Of course this is a typo: 2.305 happens _before_ 2.3 :-) Dang. I thought I got all of those... 2.24 BYA: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. Contacting Aliens gives this date as 2.25 [ok, we can accept that 2.25 is an approximation - the entry in CA is quite long] Why not add the following: 545 MYA: Diversity is artificially induced in many worlds, including Earth [causing the Cambrian explosion]. This is the last reference to Earth in the Galactic Library. It depends on DB. I expect that he has a personal politcial agenda of supporting--or at least not undermining--support for evolution as fact. (I know that the pro-evolution theme is important to me) For this sub-theme it is critical that the Galactics *NEVER* mess with Earth. 0xY /2211 CE: First Galactic Contact. Human explorers contact Tymbrimi colonists. This was 87 paktaars ago by Galactic measure. Nope. So it needs to be 2212 CE. BTW, what was the date the first Cosmonaut went into space. BTW, why the dates are usually referred as after/before Contact or as years ago? This makes conversion to AD and BC a useless task, and we have had several different, mutually contradictory, dates for Contact. Based on the data of Sundiver, I could compute the Year of Contact with reasonable precision, and it was fixed in 2212 AD. I disagree. Very old dates (over 100KYA) can safely be refered to with years ago. Indeed, one wants to avoid using an epoch since it can imply undo precision. For dates under about 5000 BCE you really need to use an epoch. The CE/BCE system is annoying in that it lacks a year zero. You have two reasonable choices for a year zero. Either 1 BCE or Contact. I chose Contact since it is THE critical date in the Uplift Universe. There are a lot of good reasons for picking Contact as your zero year. In short, I like the *xY notation and probably can't be persuaded to change it. I might be persuaded to get rid of the *YA notation in favor of *xY throughout. 31 AxY: A small branch Library is installed at La Paz, Earth. The Human starship Tabernacle disappears. The flight of Tabernacle should happen _after_ Sundiver, because they carried a book written by Jacob Demwa in year 42 after Contact. This isn't my entry. It is from SeJ. We can assume that GU2 superceeds the earlier source or assume it is is error and make a correction. 40 AxY /2290 CE: Sundiver incident. Library at La Paz is upgraded through a GLI grant. Sundiver gives the explicit date of 2246 AD [which corresponds to 34 AxY] Ok. We have Contact at 2212CE/280 YA and Sundiver in 2246 CE/240 YA per CA and GU2 Lets go with 2246CE/34 AxY/246 YA. I would like to present the recent dates in terms that are human-understandable. For example, it doesn't make sense to write 277.25 AxY: Garth invaded by Gubru. Why not _explicitly_ give some date? But this is something that is still beyond my computing powers: right now I am busy trying to spot some inconsistencies in the movements of Jijo's Moons. As in 277-Q1, or 277-February? Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
0xY /2211 CE: First Galactic Contact. Human explorers contact Tymbrimi colonists. This was 87 paktaars ago by Galactic measure. Nope. So it needs to be 2212 CE. BTW, what was the date the first Cosmonaut went into space. Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space on 12 April 1961. So the date for Contact is stuck at 2211 because it makes Contact happen 250 years after we went into space. 2212 just won't do. Math logic looses to literary logic. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
Made some changes. -- Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS=Steve Sloan addition. --- 15B AxY: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate 2.26G BxY (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies (according to Inheritor legend). 2.26G BxY (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. 11 galaxies. 2.25G BxY: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24G BxY: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23G BxY: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22G BxY: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202G BxY (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202G BxY (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15G BxY: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1G - 1.9G BxY: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9G BxY: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6G BxY: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4G BxY: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded. 1.1G BxY: Seven galaxies. Memnetic plagues lead to lawless warfare and spread of Ash. 830M BxY: Temporary loss of contact with Galaxy 5. Earth's seas begin to explode with multicellular life. 620M BxY: The ecologically insensitive Lions dominate the Galaxies. Ash spreads through 30% of Galaxy One and 20% of Galaxy Two. Complex sea life on Earth. 618M BxY: The Tarseuh forge a coalition with six other elder or retired Hero Races and overthrow the Lions. Temporary Loss of contact with two galaxies [adjusted due to Contacting Aliens internal incompatibility with 150M BxY entry]. 598M BxY: Apogee of the ultraconservative Institute for the Recovery of Honor. 590M BxY: Institute for Recovery of Honor wracked by ideological disputes, regarded
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Tuesday 2004-01-27 19:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/27/2004 6:13:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 150M BxY: Social discord over redevelopment initiates Second Gronin Collapse. Permanent loss of contact with two Galaxies. [Four and Seven! Pay attention to the numbers.] Four Galaxies remain in contact. 60M BxY: A medium-scale time of troubles. A zone of Ash forms in the region that includes Earth during the Fututhoon Wars. The Twelve-Spin machine clan is scapegoated and suppressed. On Earth, Dinosaurs die off and the age of Mammals begins. You leave out the very important: 41M BxY: Rediscovery of transfer points to galaxies originally numbered Seven and Eleven, now renumbered Two and Four. Earth is in Galaxy Two which was Galaxy Seven, which was lost from 150M BxY to 41M BxY, which includes the height and end of the age of dinosaurs. There is no proof in the Galactic Library that the dinosaurs died off. Maybe the Tarseuh will tell us what happened when they show up again. (Huh? But 600M BxY is when.) William Taylor Juras is mine. --D. Brin (?) Dear William: I dont share your enthusiasm for this plot twist you say DB is planning. In fact, given what I know about it the plot-twist seems more ugly than 'oh-so deligihtfully clever'. Indeed, if Andromeda and the Milky Way get severed from the main part of Galactic Civilization, it arguably makes Earth's misplacement not more plausible, but less so! My first literary option would be non-explaination. The Highlander folks never tell us where the swords are sheathed and Brin will just avoid explaining how Earth got lost. My second choice would be a simple explanation. 1) about 2 billion years ago the GIM surveys Earth. It (barely) has an O2 atmosphere and its highest life-forms are algal mats. Earth is a terraforming candidate. Worse it is located in a terrible neigborhood. There are few transfer points, hyperspace is full of currents, and only lower levels are accessible. 2) Therefore, the GIM cannot find anyone who wants to lease Earth and it doesn't bother to survey the place again. 3) The GIM goes back and checks its records. It runs some simulations. Earth is not alone. Galactics start to re-survey other planets like Earth. They worry about an epidemic of wolflings. Nevertheless, I will add more timeline points about the loss and rediscovery of Galaxies in the Sundering-Knitting cycle noting when the Milky Way is lost and re-discovered. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Tuesday 2004-01-27 19:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/27/2004 6:13:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 150M BxY: Social discord over redevelopment initiates Second Gronin Collapse. Permanent loss of contact with two Galaxies. [Four and Seven! Pay attention to the numbers.] Four Galaxies remain in contact. 60M BxY: A medium-scale time of troubles. A zone of Ash forms in the region that includes Earth during the Fututhoon Wars. The Twelve-Spin machine clan is scapegoated and suppressed. On Earth, Dinosaurs die off and the age of Mammals begins. You leave out the very important: 41M BxY: Rediscovery of transfer points to galaxies originally numbered Seven and Eleven, now renumbered Two and Four. Earth is in Galaxy Two which was Galaxy Seven, which was lost from 150M BxY to 41M BxY, which includes the height and end of the age of dinosaurs. There is no proof in the Galactic Library that the dinosaurs died off. Maybe the Tarseuh will tell us what happened when they show up again. (Huh? But 600M BxY is when.) William Taylor Also, when CA and GU2 seem to conflict, I am going to favor GU2. (I have very mixed feeling about CA.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
Yet more revisions. This time related to sundering-knitting. One snarky remark I am already starting to regret. -- Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B AxY: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies (according to Inheritor legend). 2.26G BxY (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is partly attributed to an agressive H-2 faction in a newly contacted galaxy. 11 galaxies. 2.25G BxY: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24G BxY: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23G BxY: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22G BxY: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202G BxY (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202G BxY (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15G BxY: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1G - 1.9G BxY: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9G BxY: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6G BxY: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4G BxY: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded. 1.1G BxY: Contact lost with one galaxies, seven galaxies in contact. Memnetic plagues lead to lawless warfare and spread of Ash. 830M BxY: Temporary loss of contact with a galaxy, six galaxies in contact. Earth's seas begin to explode with multicellular life. 680M BxY: Contact re-established with galaxy lost c 830M BxY. Seven galaxies in contact. [added by TCS to make the sundering-knitting math tally]. 620M BxY: The ecologically insensitive Lions dominate the Galaxies. Ash spreads through 30% of Galaxy One and 20% of Galaxy Two.
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Tuesday 2004-01-27 22:19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/27/2004 8:59:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 60M BxY: The three core galaxies re-establish contact with Andromeda and the Milky Way that were lost at about 150M BxY. This is a time of medium-scale troubles. A zone of Ash forms in the region that includes Earth during the Fututhoon Wars. The Twelve-Spin machine clan is scapegoated and suppressed. On Earth, Dinosaurs die off and the age of Mammals begins Ya moved the rediscovery from 41M BxY to 60M BxY Big difference. By CA timeline, Galactic Civilization never sees the later age of the dinosaurs, living or dead, stupid or space faring. The ash forms outside of Galactic Civilization. Were the Futon and Twelve-spins-in-a-row wars in or out of Seven to be renamed Two. (Sorry, someone was going to do that sooner or later.) It's getting messy and we're probably in need of a word from on high. William Taylor It all started with the Thennanin being one meter too short. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Sorry, my bad. = Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B AxY: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies (according to Inheritor legend). 2.26G BxY (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is partly attributed to an agressive H-2 faction in a newly contacted galaxy. 11 galaxies. 2.25G BxY: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24G BxY: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23G BxY: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22G BxY: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202G BxY (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202G BxY (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15G BxY: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark
Re: Uplift Timeline
The timeline has been very slightly modified to accomodate two literary coincidences that should bother no one but Alberto. 1492: Discovery of the Americas 1961: Yuri Gagarin in space 2211: First contact, 500 years after 1961 2492: Action resumes with the next Uplift Novel, 1000 years after discovery of the Americas. BCE/CE dates have been added. There is no entry for Cambrian Magic. The Tabernacle still disapears in 31 AxY. === Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B BxY/BCE: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY/BCE: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY/BCE: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY/BCE: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY/BCE: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY/BCE: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY/BCE: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY/BCE: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY/BCE: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY/BCE: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY/BCE: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY/BCE (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies according to Inheritor legend. Progenitors Transcend according to Awaitor legend. 2.26G BxY/BCE (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY/BCE: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY/BCE: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY/BCE: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is partly attributed to an agressive H-2 faction in a newly contacted galaxy. 11 galaxies. 2.25G BxY/BCE: The alliance of Organic life defeats the Artificial species. Treaties restrict Artificial life to designated Reserve Areas. These treaties are still in force. 2.24G BxY/BCE: Zang establish separate peace with O/2 Civilization paving the way for a general peace. 2.23G BxY/BCE: First Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded. These agreements result in the official alliance of all Organic life against all Artificial life. Use of cybernetic technology is discouraged. The Foresight Organization is strengthened. 2.22G BxY/BCE: Progenitors Pass On, according to Transcendor belief. 2.202G BxY/BCE (a): Hydrogen Breathers exterminate sapient Methane and Ammonia life-forms. 2.202G BxY/BCE (b): Second Comprehensive H-2/O-2 Trucial Agreements concluded, forming the basis for H-2/O-2 interaction to this day. The first systematic Hydrogen Breather and Oxygen Breather cooperation in migration and ecological management begins. The Galactic Institute for Migration begins to take on its modern form. 2.15G BxY/BCE: An O-2 power vacuum leads predecessors of some of today's alliances to battle for control of the galaxies. Nadir of post-Progenitor dark ages. 2.1G - 1.9G BxY/BCE: Power struggles largely resolved. This is a crucial formative age for much of O-2 Galactic civilization as we now know it. The Library records from this time forward are notably more complete than for earlier epochs. 1.9G BxY/BCE: Institute for Civilized Warfare formed. 1.6G BxY/BCE: Contact lost with three galaxies. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. 1.4G BxY/BCE: The Library is reorganized into its modern form. The Uplift Institute is founded. 1.1G BxY/BCE: Contact
Re: Uplift Timeline
On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:30, Alberto Monteiro wrote: William Taylor wrote: You leave out the very important: 41M BxY: Rediscovery of transfer points to galaxies originally numbered Seven and Eleven, now renumbered Two and Four. Earth is in Galaxy Two which was Galaxy Seven, which was lost from 150M BxY to 41M BxY, which includes the height and end of the age of dinosaurs. Ok, but then there's another date when _both_ Galaxies 7 and 11 lost contact with the others: 1.6 BYA: Contact lost with three galaxies [7, 9, 11] Remaining Galaxies renumbered. Eight galaxies remain. The disaster results in cultural upheavals and sparks the first wave of memnetic plagues. But of course this would not allow the Cambrian explosion on Earth O:-) Eukaryotic cells and sex! http://www.fossilmall.com/Science/Paleontology/Geological_Time.htm On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:23, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Why not add the following: 545 MYA: Diversity is artificially induced in many worlds, including Earth [causing the Cambrian explosion]. This is the last reference to Earth in the Galactic Library. It depends on DB. Yes. And He wrote on 1999-05-24: Re: The discussion of mining minerals and ores on Mars (differentiated core, but easy digging) I'm afraid the dream won't work for a simple reason. There's a better source of raw materials just floating around a little farther out in the solar system. Evidence from meteorites is strong that there was a differentiated body that got broken up ~600 million years ago, and that that's what many asteroids may be from. If so, you don't have to drill at all: you just find the right asteroid and harvest the whole thing.* For more on this, see MINING THE SKY, by my pal, U or Arizona Prof John S. Lewis. He has some more books, too. dbrin * Some suggest this was one of 3 bits of evidence that the solar system was visited in that time frame. The other two were the Cambrian explosion of life (somebody flushed a toilet), and the claim that the age-distribution of ore-bodies of certain minerals that might be of interest to advanced civilizations shows a distinct drop for ages 600 million years. So I think it's fair game to add His scientific speculations into His fiction :-) I expect that he has a personal politcial agenda of supporting--or at least not undermining--support for evolution as fact. (I know that the pro-evolution theme is important to me) For this sub-theme it is critical that the Galactics *NEVER* mess with Earth. But they did: there are Galactic Library references to Earth - only they are too old. I don't like it and I ain't puttin' it in my version unless DB gives me direct instructions. The toilet idea just doesn't work. (Why is all DNA so simmilar? Heck, why is everything coded in DNA? Where is the trace of the alien biology?) We do not need magic aliens to account for the Cambrian. If we don't need them, and don't have instructions to put them in. [Of course, Alberto, you keep the semi-official timeline. If you want to put it into your version no one will stop you.] BTW, what was the date the first Cosmonaut went into space. Gagarin, 1961. Unless the soviets had tried before and failed. They only reported their successes :-) The CE/BCE system is annoying in that it lacks a year zero. Is this a real problem? We are recording dates, not computing periods. Not a problem, just a nusaince. 31 AxY: A small branch Library is installed at La Paz, Earth. The Human starship Tabernacle disappears. The flight of Tabernacle should happen _after_ Sundiver, because they carried a book written by Jacob Demwa in year 42 after Contact. This isn't my entry. It is from SeJ. We can assume that GU2 superceeds the earlier source or assume it is is error and make a correction. IIRC, this was overlooked in the GU2 Timeline. Nope. Its in GU2, missing from CA. Though I don't recommend it, I am happy to modify the entry. Just pick a date. I would like to present the recent dates in terms that are human-understandable. As in 277-Q1, or 277-February? No, as in 2489-May : Streaker flees to Kithrup :-P I tell you what. I will put the dates in a dual format. *xY/*CE and republish. On Wednesday 2004-01-28 19:26, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Yuri Gagarin was the first man in space on 12 April 1961. So the date for Contact is stuck at 2211 because it makes Contact happen 250 years after we went into space. 2212 just won't do. Math logic looses to literary logic. Whenever I find round periods like 250 years, it's convenient to accept them as approximations. 250 could be 251. BTW, where is it written that Contact happened 250 years after the first human flight? Alberto Monteiro Yes we could assume that 251 is almost 250. Of course, our error is even
Re: Tg Territories
On Thursday 2004-01-29 05:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Various Terragen Confederation Territories by GIM Leasehold Type I have just found the missing colonies. There's no need to place Easter around Alpha Centauri :-) In _Startide Rising_, there's a reference to the _Canaan Colonies_ that can be defended by the Tymbrimi. Maybe these are the colonies [notice the plural!] around Alpha Centauri. The plural suggests that there could be two [or three] of them, around desolate worlds in that system. Yes we could, if I hadn't already taken the time to write up Easter. There was also mention in GU1 of the Cygnus Colonies. I had always assumed that both the Canaan and Cygnus colonies were unspecified subsets of the colonies already listed. Also, you will recall that the problem wasn't that we couldn't come up with 10 major colonies. We had a perfect count. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Garth: 6-Horst: 7-Mars: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): 10-Venus: The problem was that we wanted 10 major *leases*, and only had 9. 1-Atlast: 2-Calafia: 3-Deemi: 4-Dezni: 5-Earth: 6-Garth: 7-Horst: 8-Omnivarium: 9-NuDawn (Mudaun in Gal-7): By adding desolate worlds and arbitarilly declaring them to be the Canaan Colonies we fail to solve the problem of producing a major lease. We add so many colonies it is hard to reconcile the fan-fic with the source. Worse, we may tread on DB's toes if he wanted (as I believe) the Canaan Colonies to consist of some sub-set of the 9 cannonical leashold worlds. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift Timeline
The timeline has been very slightly modified to accomodate two literary coincidences that should bother no one but Alberto. 1492: Discovery of the Americas 1961: Yuri Gagarin in space 2211: First contact, 500 years after 1961 (Over Alberto M.'s vigorous objection that it should remain 2212.) 2492: Action resumes with the next Uplift Novel, 1000 years after discovery of the Americas. Added entry that Cuthmar reaches Earth in 2212. On Thursday 2004-01-29 06:36, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Cambrian Magic. I don't like it and I ain't puttin' it in my version unless DB gives me direct instructions. Ok. But maybe we could come to a compromising solution? What about writing that Earth scholars suspect that the Cambrian explosion was triggered by the Galactics, as the oldest record about Earth dates from that time? Done. See entry below. c 3000 BxY: Earth's Axial Age begins. Axial Age? wtf? [Trent's definition.] Ah, so this would be - according to Danikite belief - the time when the Rothen [or else] came to Earth to teach us again? Maybe you should explain it further for non-historians Done see entry. Also, I check facts on pyramids. Changed dates. On Thursday 2004-01-29 10:18, Alberto Monteiro wrote: What about 2267 AD? It would be 225 years ago, or about 281 Jijo Years ago, or about Jijo Year 1650, as in GU2, p.150 [there are many references to 300 Jijo Years of Human Occupation in Jijo, but I can always assume that 300 is a close approximation to 280] Done. See entry. [NB. We are now talking about at most 225 years of Humans on Jijo. Can you reconcile the timelines?] Alberto Monteiro PS: I don't like that entry about the Soro message that mentions that Streaker left Kthsemenee System. IMHO, it should be replaced by the _actual_ date when Streaker departed. The core action of _Startide Rising_ [from Ch1 to Ch124] took a little over 1 _Earth week_, so it doesn't make sense to place the departure from the System _half_ a year after Streaker found the Derelict Fleet. I think it works. You assume the broadcast is late in 278/2489-Q1. Streaker in on the run through Q2 and enters Kthsemenee in early Q3. I have altered the entry. revised timeline follows. [By the way, this has been a lot of work. Do we want DB's imprimateur?] = Time-Line: History of the Five Galaxies[1] G = Billion, M = Million, K = Thousand; BCE=Before Common (Terragen) Era (=BC), CE = Common (Terragen) Era (=AD); BxY = before Contact, 0xY = year of Contact (= 2211 CE), AxY = after Contact; All years are standard Terragen measure. SadPaktar = Paktar that Progenitors Passed On from Main Sequence existence = Paktar 0 = 2.26 BYA; SS = Steve Sloan addition. CA = Contacting Aliens GU2 = GURPS Uplift, 2nd ed. --- 15B BxY/BCE: Big Bang (SS) 3.1G - 2.8G BxY/BCE: Massive terraforming campaigns. Evidence of age-long world-shattering conflicts. Sources mention 17 Galaxies. (Beginnings of life on Earth.) 2.8G - 2.2G BxY/BCE: Progenitors rule the galaxies in what is traditionally thought to be a Golden Age. Mention of 13 Galaxies. Records extremely sketchy. 2.8G-2.75G BxY/BCE: Scholars attribute Paean of Loneliness to this age. The Paean of Loneliness is an ode to Uplift. 2.75G BxY/BCE: Appearance of first textual and archaeological evidence for Hydrogen Breathing and Methane Breathing sapients. 2.71G BxY/BCE: Transfer point to Third Galaxy discovered; wrecked Galactic-level civilization discovered there. The Progenitors and allied species revise their ecological ethics and practices in response. 2.7G BxY/BCE: First Machine Wars. Self-replicating AIs and nanotechnology are restricted and regulated in the common interest. Galactic Foresight Organization founded. 2.305G BxY/BCE: First Wars with Hydrogen-Breathers begin. 2.3G BxY/BCE: Progenitors separate themselves from affairs of lesser races, passing on laws and edicts. 2.263G BxY/BCE: Second Machine Wars begin. According to legend, self-replicating, intelligent, non-organic constructs-designed by both H-2 and O-2 combatants in the H-2/O-2 Wars-mutually decide their masters are insanely irrational, and so unfit to represent Sapiency. 2.2615G BxY/BCE: H-2/O-2 Wars escalate. 2.26G BxY/BCE (a): Progenitors physically leave the Galaxies according to Inheritor legend. Progenitors Transcend according to Awaitor legend. 2.26G BxY/BCE (b): Artificial life enjoys considerable military advantage in the three-way wars between Artificial, H-2, and O-2 life. 2.258G BxY/BCE: Open hostilities in the First H-2/O-2 Wars end with the Cease Fire for Negotiations Toward a Mutually Beneficial Peace. 2.256G BxY/BCE: Macro-Nanitic sapient species are exterminated by the Organic species per the agreement of 2.258G BxY. 2.253G BxY/BCE: As Second Machine Wars end, Second H-2/O-2 Wars begin. This is
Re: Br!n: LotR and Conservatives
Still, I do know this. The democrats are varied. You'll get some bright, some not. But the Goppers have driven away all the homosapiens from their upper echelons. There are no more Dwight Eisenhowers and Barry Goldwaters. It's all frat boys, top to bottom. 1) From Jefferson to Kerry, frat boys (that is, members of the power elite) have had a disproportionate influence on Democrats too. (Though they do not have a strangle-hold on the party.) 2) Ever since Lincoln, power elites have been more important among Republicans than Democrats, but that's kind of what one would expect. 3) The Republican power-elites have changed. Today it is well nigh impossible to be what was once called a Rockefeller Republican, though it is where I would expect frat boys to accumulate ideologically. There is a confluence between the neo-Calvinist power-elite frat boy who believes in the inviolable moral right to any and all accumulated property and captial and the Christian coalitionist. Of course, the Christian coalition has historically had a hard time pushing their agenda when it conflicted with capital uber alles. Under Shrubby, the Christian coalition seems to be doing substantially better than under any previous Republican administration. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Lith ab-Lesh
Lith ab-Lesh ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon The Lesh were fortunate enough to follow the Clan Tothtoon ideal of uplifting three clients. The Lith were to be the last and greatest Lesh uplift project. Even with the arrival of the Heebi as foster clients, Lith remain the Lesh heir-apparent. Like all their clients, except the Heebi, the Lesh purchased the uplift rights to the proto-Lith on the Galactic market. On their homeworld, the amphibious proto-Lith lived in and around a major river system that snaked its way through tropical savannahs. Humans say a Lith resembles a largish Cassowary with a seal's rear flippers stuck to its posterior. Lith are covered in a small, dense coat of feathers although none of their ancestors were flyers. The proto-Lith body form left the Lesh with few good options for fine manipulators. A significant short-coming in the Lith is that their only fine manipulators are a prehensile tongue and cilia around their beak. Proto-Lith were largely vegetarian foragers, supplementing their diet with the occasional snail or amphibian. Proto-Lith were fast and maneuverable in water, talents that have made the Lith above average pilots. Proto-Lith were also very competent on land though their legs ended in unremarkable paws. In terms of sensory preference the Lith are oriented toward their electro-magnetic sense. Its main organ is housed in a large casque on the Lith head. In water, the Lith electro-magnetic sensoria exceed the resolution of any South American electrical fish and within a few meters rivals a dolphin's sonar. In air, a Lith effectively has short range radar with good resolution to about 50 meters. Lith have poor eye-sight and hearing. In addition, the Lith casque forces their eyes to the very front of the skull so they have almost no peripheral vision. The casque doubles as a horn. Nesting Lith still have an instinct to use their casque to defend their nest territory, which in practice usually means a house or apartment. Proto-Lith lived in family groups, bearing young live, usually twins. Family groups consisted of a breeding pair with adolescents, children, and infants. Vocal and limited pheromone communication were the basis of proto-Lith social interaction. Proto-Lith were highly territorial, signaling their presence with great howls and vigorously defending nest sites. They bore relatively few young and their pups enjoyed long, playful childhoods. As of this writing Lith are Level Two Clients still in their minority. Lith still live in family groups. Since they need to control their population, families are now stem families. They consist of three or four generations instead of parents and their many children. Lith parents with infants still have strong nesting instincts. Nesting Lith become territorial, paranoid, and aggressive toward outsiders. Just to make things interesting, Lith find their nesting housemates highly charisma. The strength of a Lith's nesting instincts vary inversely with the age of its youngest child. When its youngest reaches puberty Lith nesting territoriality disappears. Needless to say Lith with young children tend to be house bound. Lith are bright, playful and mecurical, prone to intuitive leaps. The are less gregarious and affable than the Lesh and lack the Lesh enthusiasm for alien company. Nevertheless, they have the makings of competent Galactic travelers and do reasonably well with outsiders. Though they lack the Lesh skill at schmoozing they are just as acquisitive. When their uplift is complete the Lith should be more than a match for their patrons in the art of the deal. It is not uncommon to see Lith working for Lesh trading interests. Even so, Lith are not yet allowed to trade outside the clan on their own in independent missions. Lith traders and financiers are influential within Clan Lesh and in Lesh Clan politics. The Lesh are clearly playing favorites. This has resulted in evident resentment on the part of the dreary, loyal and quite successful Zhuup. Psycho-historians fully expect a significant, but not terribly destructive, sibling rivalry to develop between the Lith and the Zhuup. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lith ab-Lesh
On Monday 2004-02-02 07:42, Julia Thompson wrote: Trent Shipley wrote: Just to make things interesting, Lith find their nesting housemates highly charisma. Should that be charismatic? yep. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift Patronymics
a modification of http://www.geocities.com/allianceforprogress/encyclopedia/galpolitics/patronym.html This is needed for a planned writeup on the Heebi. == Rules of Patronymics a- used in patronymics to indicate (any sub-set of) a race in formal address. ta - used in patronymics to indicate (any sub-set of) a race in informal address. In formal address a is used. ab- used in patronymics to indicate Patrons. Listed in reverse historical order; that is, starting with the species' immediate Patron, then the Patron's Patron, and so on. The list extends back to the most senior race still having an O-2 existence. Used to establish identity and status. absu- prefix for an extinct or Retired Patron survived by Patron species senior to it. ul- used in patronymics to indicate Clients. Listed in historical order of development. A long list of sucessful clients is also a symbol of status. ulsu- for an extinct or Retired Client. Example: Fagin, a-Kanten, ab-Linten ab-Siqul ul-Nish. wol: indicates a secondary patron line. Use of 'wol' is usually the result of some sort of uplift fosterage. Patron lines mentioned later in the full patronymic have lower prestige. Unlike 'ab' and 'ul' 'wol' is strongly prestige oriented and only weakly historical. A race lists its patron lines in the order it wants them mentioned. If patron lines tie for prestige a race usually lists its most recent sponsor first. Some races prefer to drop patron lines in diplomatic discourse. In these cases there is no linguistic indicant; one must simply know the preferred protocol. Note also that in practice all patrons tend to mention the client in their patronymics. Examples: Heebi ab-Lesh ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon wol: ab-J'8lek ab-Khilp ab-Brawch Bahtwin ab-Gello ab-Soro ab-Hul ab-Puber wol: ab-Soro ab-Hul ab-Puber The case of the Bahtwin is particularly unusual. They were effectively fostered to their grand-patrons. The Soro do not list the Bahtwin as clients, the Bahtwin list the Gello first and strongly discourage use their full patronymic. This is because fosterage is considered an embarrassment. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Heebi ab-Lesh
Heebi ab-Lesh ab-Erbl ab-Kosh ab-Rosh ab-Tothtoon wol:ab-J'8lek ab-Khilp ab-Brawch When the very successful and respected Lesh began the Lith uplift project they expected that they were uplifting their last client. The Lesh, through little effort of their own became the foster patrons to their Heebi god-clients in the wake of the Stoort rebellion against their J'8lek patrons. The J'8lek ab-Khilp ab-Brawch ul-Kaschan ul-Stoort ul-Heebi ul-B'8koo were uplifted by the Khilp as a servitor race. When mature the J'8lek proved avaricious, ambitious, and ruthlessly efficient capitalists. The J'8lek rose rapidly in Galactic society and soon had scores of planetary leases and four clients. Unfortunately, their ruthless greed drove the Stoort, their military arm, to team with the Khilp diplomats in a rebellion. The Stage Two Heebi also actively supported the rebellion. After a mere 623 hab-years of war the J'8lek lost all but two planets and the B'8koo. (The GUI ruled that the J'8lek were harsh, but not _per se_ abusive patrons. Indeed, the fact the Stoort rebelled successfully impressed the GUI with the quality of J'8lek uplift projects.) As the leaders of the rebellion the Stoort opted to end their uplift, the Kaschan were fostered to their Pargi god-patrons and the Heebi to the Lesh. J'8lek planetary leases were re-assigned to the rebels and their new patrons in the negotiated peace settlement. The J'8lek planned to uplift the Heebi as a specialized servitor race. The Heebi were well suited to the role with only a couple of deficits. Proto-Heebi were centipedal with two limbs per segment. All proto-Heebi had a comensual relationship with one or two species of large herbivores, or in a couple of instances with large pack-hunting carnivores. The main population of proto-Heebi followed herds of very large herbivores. They grubbed for roots and insects in soil and tree trunks disturbed by their associated species. They also groomed the comensual species, cleaning off parasites. The presence of the huge herbivores also offered the smaller Heebi some protection from predators. Proto-Heebi were in many ways a very promising species--they even used primitive tools and cooperated. Proto-Heebi had low levels of sexual stratification, mating jealousy and territoriality. Young resembled adults with fewer segments, but had distinct, prolonged childhoods. Heebi are born with an anterior segment, five limbed segments, and a posterior segment. All proto-Heebi were dormant for about a quarter of their homeworld year. During this time they would excrete a chrysalis, absorb their exo-skeleton, grow a new segment, then a new exo-skeleton. Heebi have been modified so that they only need a growth hibernation period every four or five hab-years. A growth hibernation period lasts a little over one-third of a hab-year. Proto-Heebi all went dormant in one season. There is no strong seasonality in Heebi growth hibernation so at any given time a fraction of the population are dormant. With the exception of its anterior and posterior segments, every Heebi segment has two limbs. All limbs end in four digits. Heebi use all their limb-ends indiscriminantly as both feet and hands. When they were fostered to the Lesh the J'8lek were considering advancing the Heebi to Stage Three. However, the Lesh wanted to revisit Stage Two for the Heebi, so advancement to Stage Three has been postponed. There is much to admire in the Heebi. They work well together, are amiable and get on well with aliens and strangers. Heebi are sensitive to others moods and enjoy pleasing others. Conflict is rare in Heebi society. They tend to form devoted attachments to powerful individuals and patrons. A tendency that is not out of place in a servitor race. The Heebi are even moderately ambitious and should make adequate Galactic citizens. The primary drawback with the Heebi project, as the Lesh see it, is that the J'8lek left allowed the typical Heebi without guile. They are honest to a fault and trusting to the point of gullibility. It is the rare Heebi who has the discretion due a servant. They can understand secrets and secrecy, but getting a Heebi to give up secrets is trivially easy. Lesh, Zhuup, and to a much lesser extent Vijilus currently use Heebi as personal servants. Personal servants are seldom allowed to interact with outsiders. Since the Lith and Heebi are nominal equals, the Lesh do not allow Lith to have Heebi servants. Nevertheless, when Lith encounter Heebi it is evident that the Lith take measured advantage of the situation. Heebi are also found in service roles where personal discretion is not at a premium. Erbl Clan Tradition dictates that all members must be self-sufficient, at least theoretically. Lesh have indicated that Heebi guilelessness will be *the* priority for Stage Two in the Heebi project. The goal is for Heebi to have
