Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-19 Thread Bruce Bostwick
On Dec 19, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Dan M wrote:

>> No, by "well-educated" I mean professionals - accountants, lawyers,
>> medics etc.
>
> I thought that was the case, but thanks for the clarification.
>
>> Cyprus was full of them working bar, waiting, or worse being  
>> exploited
>> in strip clubs. (It wasn't like London where an attractive woman  
>> could
>> make good money doing "exotic dancing" a couple of times a week -
>> these girls were often being forced to have sex with customers).
>
> Well, as you know, that's particularly repugnant to me, both as the  
> husband
> of an abuse victim (who later specialized in social work in working  
> with
> victims) and as the father of daughters.  I have heard about this  
> sort of
> thing with uneducated poor Eastern European women, but not about it
> happening to the well educated.  It's not that the evilness of this  
> forcing
> is less if a woman is undereducated, but this strikes me as  
> countering the
> proposal that education is the ticket out of poverty and exploitation.
>
> One question comes up, and you may or may not be able to answer it.   
> Were
> the professionals allowed to work menial jobs but not professional  
> jobs just
> because of local laws, customs, prejudices, etc., or do you think  
> that the
> education system in Russia has fallen to the point where, for  
> example, you'd
> never want to have a Russian surgeon operating on you?
>
> Dan M.

One thing I know at least *used* to be true is that a fairly large  
portion of the population of former Soviet countries tended to be  
quite well formally educated, quite often on the master's or doctorate  
level, enough so that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the  
competition for the few professional jobs then available even  
worldwide was such that it was another strike against recent  
immigrants from former Soviet countries almost everywhere else.  It's  
still true that among former Soviet-bloc emigres of a certain age,  
you'll find quite a few of them have higher level degrees of some  
sort, in some cases more than one.  I think it was sort of an artifact  
of the Soviet system that university education was both inexpensive  
and one of the few things people could readily spend money on, plus to  
some extent a sort of nationalistic pride.  It may be that those  
degrees are slightly less reflective of actual academic accomplishment  
than they are elsewhere, but I would say not by much, if at all.

Nowadays, I think the driving factors are radically different, since  
the state-sponsored higher education system was one of the things that  
collapsed in the post-Soviet era, so the people emigrating to other  
countries *now* are much more likely to be at most high school  
educated, considerably poorer, and considerably more desperate.   
Which, to me, sort of explains how a lot of young women from former  
Soviet countries now work as models if they're lucky, and get drawn  
into the sex trade if they're not so lucky.  It's definitely not a  
nice side of humanity that leads to them being exploited, and I don't  
have to like it (and, trust me, I don't!), but I do understand how it  
happens ..


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RE: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-19 Thread Dan M


> -Original Message-
> From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
> Behalf Of Charlie Bell
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 3:54 PM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)
> 
> 
> No, by "well-educated" I mean professionals - accountants, lawyers,
> medics etc.

I thought that was the case, but thanks for the clarification.
 
> Cyprus was full of them working bar, waiting, or worse being exploited
> in strip clubs. (It wasn't like London where an attractive woman could
> make good money doing "exotic dancing" a couple of times a week -
> these girls were often being forced to have sex with customers).

Well, as you know, that's particularly repugnant to me, both as the husband
of an abuse victim (who later specialized in social work in working with
victims) and as the father of daughters.  I have heard about this sort of
thing with uneducated poor Eastern European women, but not about it
happening to the well educated.  It's not that the evilness of this forcing
is less if a woman is undereducated, but this strikes me as countering the
proposal that education is the ticket out of poverty and exploitation. 

One question comes up, and you may or may not be able to answer it.  Were
the professionals allowed to work menial jobs but not professional jobs just
because of local laws, customs, prejudices, etc., or do you think that the
education system in Russia has fallen to the point where, for example, you'd
never want to have a Russian surgeon operating on you?

Dan M. 

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Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-19 Thread Charlie Bell

On 19/12/2008, at 7:44 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>
> How did you establish that the girls in the strip clubs were well  
> educated
> russian girls?

By the cunning method of living in the same building as them, and  
talking to them during the daytime.

Charlie.
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Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-19 Thread Wayne Eddy
> No, by "well-educated" I mean professionals - accountants, lawyers,
> medics etc.
>
> Cyprus was full of them working bar, waiting, or worse being exploited
> in strip clubs. (It wasn't like London where an attractive woman could
> make good money doing "exotic dancing" a couple of times a week -
> these girls were often being forced to have sex with customers).
>
> Charlie.

How did you establish that the girls in the strip clubs were well educated 
russian girls?

Regards,

Wayne 

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Re: Belgian Beer (was Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?))

2008-12-18 Thread William T Goodall

On 18 Dec 2008, at 14:08, Jim Sharkey wrote:

> Wayne wrote:
>> 5. The nicest beer I ever had the pleasure of drinking was in  
>> Russia.  It
>> was a Belgian brew and I wish I remembered the brand name.
>
> I know it betrays my Irish-ness, but I think the Belgians make the  
> best beers.
>
> Chimay, Corsendonk, Maredsous...all delicious and with some fairly  
> high alcohol
> contents to boot, which is a bit of a bonus I must admit.  I like  
> their Trippels the best,
> but YMMV.


Czech beer is very very good. And it costs less than  coffee or Coke  
in Prague.

Bohemian Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : w...@wtgab.demon.co.uk
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

“Babies are born every day without an iPod. We will get there.” - Adam  
Sohn, the head of public relations for Microsoft’s Zune division.

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RE: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-18 Thread Dan M


> -Original Message-
> From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
> Behalf Of Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 6:00 PM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)
> 
> Dan M. wrote:
> >
> >> I would have thought that a low birth rate is very very good
> >> evidence of being part of the first world.
> >
> > It does have that in common with the first world.  But, the life
> expectancy
> > of both men and women in every age catagory is less than it was 40 years
> > ago.
> >
> And how can we trust communist statistics?

By secondary measure, of course. :-)  If you want to argue that things were
worse than the official statistics under the USSR, you won't find a debate
opponent in me.  But, after the USSR fell, a lot of data became available.
The person who wrote the paper in question is an old lion of polisci, and
has a great reputation.  And, he is publishing in a very anti-Communist
journal.  So, I'd be shocked if he just took stock communist statistics
without using secondary data.  It could be that the fall wasn't as great as
he portrayed, but men use to live longer, on average, than 60 years.  Over
70 or so years of Communist rule, demographic errors of that magnitude
become to big to miss. 

Dan M. 

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Re: Belgian Beer (was Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?))

2008-12-18 Thread John Horn
Jim wrote:

> I  know it betrays my Irish-ness, but I think the Belgians make the best
beers.
Well, now they make Budweiser too so there is no accounting for taste...

 - jmh
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Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-18 Thread Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
Dan M. wrote:
>
>> I would have thought that a low birth rate is very very good
>> evidence of being part of the first world.
>
> It does have that in common with the first world.  But, the life expectancy
> of both men and women in every age catagory is less than it was 40 years
> ago.
>
And how can we trust communist statistics?

Alberto Monteiro
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Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-18 Thread Charlie Bell

On 19/12/2008, at 5:47 AM, Dan M wrote:
>>
>> More than that, why are there so many Russian ex-pats, well-educated,
>> doing menial jobs in tourist resorts? 'cause it's better than no job
>> in Russia.
>
> And I bet it's not just the usual theater majors doing menial jobs  
> while
> waiting for their break (father of a theater major sighs).  I've  
> read that
> the Greek riots are tied to this type of problem; there are no/very  
> few good
> jobs available for college graduates there.

No, by "well-educated" I mean professionals - accountants, lawyers,  
medics etc.

Cyprus was full of them working bar, waiting, or worse being exploited  
in strip clubs. (It wasn't like London where an attractive woman could  
make good money doing "exotic dancing" a couple of times a week -  
these girls were often being forced to have sex with customers).

Charlie.
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RE: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-18 Thread Dan M


> -Original Message-
> From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
> Behalf Of Charlie Bell
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 4:51 AM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)
> 
> 
> On 18/12/2008, at 11:46 AM, dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > The recovery was caused by two things: Putin controlling the mob so
> > businessmen knew who to bribe, and the rise in fuel costs.  But, the
> > last 4
> > years, as he consolidated his power, he also concentrated the
> > wealthI
> > don't think anyone would argue that Russia is not a more autocratic
> > country
> > than it was even 4 years ago.  These types of countries rarely have
> > well
> > off citizens.
> 
> More than that, why are there so many Russian ex-pats, well-educated,
> doing menial jobs in tourist resorts? 'cause it's better than no job
> in Russia.

And I bet it's not just the usual theater majors doing menial jobs while
waiting for their break (father of a theater major sighs).  I've read that
the Greek riots are tied to this type of problem; there are no/very few good
jobs available for college graduates there.



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Re: Belgian Beer (was Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?))

2008-12-18 Thread Nick Arnett
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 6:08 AM, Jim Sharkey  wrote:

>
> I know it betrays my Irish-ness, but I think the Belgians make the best
> beers.


Ah, well, then I have to share a joke often told by a Fitzgerald friend of
mine.

"An Irishman walks out of a bar."

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"It could happen!"

Nick
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Belgian Beer (was Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?))

2008-12-18 Thread Jim Sharkey
Wayne wrote:
>5. The nicest beer I ever had the pleasure of drinking was in Russia.  It 
>was a Belgian brew and I wish I remembered the brand name.

I know it betrays my Irish-ness, but I think the Belgians make the best beers.

Chimay, Corsendonk, Maredsous...all delicious and with some fairly high alcohol
contents to boot, which is a bit of a bonus I must admit.  I like their 
Trippels the best,
but YMMV.

Jim
Beer snob Maru



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Re: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-18 Thread Charlie Bell

On 18/12/2008, at 11:46 AM, dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
>
> The recovery was caused by two things: Putin controlling the mob so
> businessmen knew who to bribe, and the rise in fuel costs.  But, the  
> last 4
> years, as he consolidated his power, he also concentrated the  
> wealthI
> don't think anyone would argue that Russia is not a more autocratic  
> country
> than it was even 4 years ago.  These types of countries rarely have  
> well
> off citizens.

More than that, why are there so many Russian ex-pats, well-educated,  
doing menial jobs in tourist resorts? 'cause it's better than no job  
in Russia.

Charlie.
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RE: Russia (Was What is wealth?)

2008-12-17 Thread dsummersmi...@comcast.net


Original Message:
-
From: Wayne Eddy we...@bigpond.net.au
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:59:18 +1000
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Russia  (Was What is wealth?)



- Original Message - 
From: "Dan M" 
To: "'Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion'" 
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: What is wealth?

>I didn't see a lot of 
>drunks wandering the streets, but there were a few indications that 
>alcoholism could be a bit of a problem.

Well, on average they drink a lot.  Averaging over the whole population, we
have from 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1647475.ece


>A report by Gennadi Onishenko, head of the consumer protection agency,
found that >Russians drink 15 litres (26 pints) of pure alcohol per year




>I was last in Russia was in 2004 and the ecconomy seemed to have picked up
a 
>lot since when I was first there in 2000, whcih is why I question your 
>assertion that Russia was on the slide.  The majority of Russians I've met 
>are very well educated and I definitely got the impression that Russia was 
>recovering nicely from the admittedly rather large hiccup caused by the
fall 
>of the Soviet Union.

>Another few years and oil prices will be higher than ever surely?

The last time this happened, it took 20 years until the next oil boom. 
Again, look at the countries where the ecconomy is all oil.  Those with
decent sized populations (Venezuala, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria) have not seen the
immense foreign currency generated by this wealth trickle down to the
average person.  

The recovery was caused by two things: Putin controlling the mob so
businessmen knew who to bribe, and the rise in fuel costs.  But, the last 4
years, as he consolidated his power, he also concentrated the wealthI
don't think anyone would argue that Russia is not a more autocratic country
than it was even 4 years ago.  These types of countries rarely have well
off citizens.



>I never saw any indications of massive child neglect - quite the opposite.

OK, then the quesiton becomes why do NGOs report it as massive, and even
the government report it as quite large. 




>Lets hope the US doesn't attack any else for a while then.  Surely with 
>George Bush out it becomes a bit less likely? :-)

It depends on the security needs of the US.  Obama was clear that he would
raise the troop levels in Afganistan.  Gates seems to have his head on
straight, arguing for soft forces to follow troops in because the US
otherwise lost the ground it won as soon as the troops left.

I, among many others, argued against going into Iraq, because I thought we
would bumble it.although even I didn't guess the magnitude of the
incompetence of those involved.  But, with Gates and Petreus, we have had
very competent leadership, and things are far better now than they were in
'06, or '02 in Iraq.  Whether they will stay that way after we leave is a
good question the answer to which no-one knows, but right now there are far
fewer violent deaths than there were 7 years ago.



>I wonder if Afganistan will have that effect on anyone else?

Very unlikely.  If you look at 'Nam for the US and Afganistan for the USSR,
both were quagmires, but the US managed to grow its GDP 30% in the '70s and
the USSR GDP fell like a rock in the '80s.

Right now, the US is spending a fraction of the GDP it spent on arms in the
'60s, our biggest growth years.



>I would have thought that a low birth rate is very very good evidence of 
>being part of the first world.

It does have that in common with the first world.  But, the life expectancy
of both men and women in every age catagory is less than it was 40 years
ago.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3439671.html

Now, I know the Hoover institute is quite conservative, but from what I've
heard from knowledgeable sources in the field, the basic demographics are
not disputed  


>Things can turn around quickly - look at China - 

Which took 25 years to turn around, but go ahead.

>perhaps global warming is 
>just what Russia needs to become a major world power again?


With no people?  It's not just that the birth rate is low, it's that the
death rate is higher than 40 years ago.  Germany has a lower birth rate,
and it's birth and death rate are close to even.  Russia's death rate is
about 50% higher than it's birth rate.

For a number of reasons, the average, say, 40 year old man has a high hill
to climb before he can achieve his father's life expectancy.  Something is
wrong there.  The life expectency for a Russian male is 3 years less than
for a male from Bangladesh.  Something is terribly wrong there.


Dan M. 


mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft®
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