Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
I've always been a fan of full disclosure. For a start, if you're going to give a team a low score, you should always be able to justify it to their face. In fact, both teams could learn plenty from being party to each others discussion on what SOTG score to give to the other team. I like to think we're above any kind of petty SOTG grudges. At EUCF last year, we gave a team a zero in one or two categories, with a total score of around 8 or 9 (so not bad, really), and to our surprise they came up to us asking about it soon after - the score keeper had decided to show our SOTG sheet to the other team when they went to hand theirs in... Initially we were a bit taken aback by losing anonymity unexpectedly, but after getting over that we had a really productive discussion with the other team's captains, learning the differences in SOTG scoring between nations and also highlighting a few instances they weren't previously aware of. It was probably the most productive SOTG experience I've had, and makes 'secret SOTG scoring' seem quite ridiculous now. Felix On 24 July 2013 20:44, Jack j...@ukultimate.com wrote: Another option - which occurred at Tour 3 - is that a team with a bad result has asked the TD to approach the team/s who gave that result for anonymous feedback. On 24 Jul 2013, at 20:08, Jack wrote: I would think that it's a bad idea with teams that regularly play each other, as it would be more likely to lead to rivalries and grudges than resolutions. Jack On 24 Jul 2013, at 19:26, e-mail wayne.wrecker wrote: I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) On 23 July 2013 13:01, Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
Again, an international example - you probably won't play this team again for at least a year or two, by which time both teams will have changed personnel and maybe attitude. The same applies to u23's Not much chance for a grudge to develop here. However I can certainly see the point you are making, and it might be worth trying it out for a season/tournament. I believe it would change the way teams allocate spirit results to each other, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I suspect teams will be less harsh, and when there's a relatively small difference between results anyway, this would lead to a closer average score. As someone who has access to who gave who which results (for Tour 3), it's certainly interesting. Some teams are more generous than others, and at least one team clearly doesn't understand the last category (their spirit compared to ours) as they gave a team really low scores then a 'very good' for this category. Any discussion of SOTG is good as it keeps it in the 'public' awareness. Jack On 25 Jul 2013, at 14:27, Felix wrote: I've always been a fan of full disclosure. For a start, if you're going to give a team a low score, you should always be able to justify it to their face. In fact, both teams could learn plenty from being party to each others discussion on what SOTG score to give to the other team. I like to think we're above any kind of petty SOTG grudges. At EUCF last year, we gave a team a zero in one or two categories, with a total score of around 8 or 9 (so not bad, really), and to our surprise they came up to us asking about it soon after - the score keeper had decided to show our SOTG sheet to the other team when they went to hand theirs in... Initially we were a bit taken aback by losing anonymity unexpectedly, but after getting over that we had a really productive discussion with the other team's captains, learning the differences in SOTG scoring between nations and also highlighting a few instances they weren't previously aware of. It was probably the most productive SOTG experience I've had, and makes 'secret SOTG scoring' seem quite ridiculous now. Felix On 24 July 2013 20:44, Jack j...@ukultimate.com wrote: Another option - which occurred at Tour 3 - is that a team with a bad result has asked the TD to approach the team/s who gave that result for anonymous feedback. On 24 Jul 2013, at 20:08, Jack wrote: I would think that it's a bad idea with teams that regularly play each other, as it would be more likely to lead to rivalries and grudges than resolutions. Jack On 24 Jul 2013, at 19:26, e-mail wayne.wrecker wrote: I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) On 23 July 2013 13:01, Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) On 23 July 2013 13:01, Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
I would think that it's a bad idea with teams that regularly play each other, as it would be more likely to lead to rivalries and grudges than resolutions. Jack On 24 Jul 2013, at 19:26, e-mail wayne.wrecker wrote: I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) On 23 July 2013 13:01, Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
Hi Wayne and Britdisc, We have discussed it. However, at the moment UK teams fill out SOTG scores with a presumption of anonymity, so we retain that and just release anonymous data. I'd like to find out what the UK playing community thinks about this really before making a decision. In favour of releasing ALL data: It enables teams to learn much better about their SOTG, because if they get a score that concerns them, they know who to go to to discuss it In favour of keeping it anonymous: If you know who gave you a 'bad' score then you may develop a grudge - which completely goes against the aims of having SOTG scoring. You may also feel inhibited when scoring teams and adjust your scoring, making it potentially less objective What would help our debate would be some good feedback on this. Ideally I'd like someone to volunteer to run a survey for us. Next best would for people to email me directly with their thoughts. Let me know, thanks Wayne (The original one) Wayne Davey www.equalsfinance.co.uk From: e-mail wayne.wrecker wayne.wrec...@ntlworld.com To: Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: britdisc@ranulf.net britdisc@ranulf.net Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2013, 19:26 Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
Another option - which occurred at Tour 3 - is that a team with a bad result has asked the TD to approach the team/s who gave that result for anonymous feedback. On 24 Jul 2013, at 20:08, Jack wrote: I would think that it's a bad idea with teams that regularly play each other, as it would be more likely to lead to rivalries and grudges than resolutions. Jack On 24 Jul 2013, at 19:26, e-mail wayne.wrecker wrote: I note that the TDs of the WFDF u23 World Championships are fully disclosing the SOTG scores - i.e. you can see which opposition gave you what scores. Is this a forseeable plan for UKU Events? Nationals, perhaps? Regards, Wayne (the other one) On 23 July 2013 13:01, Wayne Davey waynedave...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
On 23 July 2013 09:44, Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
Thanks Chris First class reporting of your SOTG scores! Thanks so much for presenting all this detail so clearly. It's great that you've provided access to this information for all teams so that they are better able to understand how their play is perceived by others And a thank you to all the teams that took the time to submit their scores to Chris and Jack Wayne Wayne Davey SOTG committee --- Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:44:29 +0100 From: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk To: britdisc@ranulf.net The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 10:36:00 +0100 From: #55 leed...@gmail.com To: Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: BritDisc britdisc@ranulf.net Subject: Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG Great work in publishing this level of detail Chris. Excel may produce horrible HTML, but the conditional formatting is really helpful to pick out individual scores that need attention. -- Rich Hims leed...@gmail.com __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
Re: [BD] Tour 3 - SOTG
Hi all, As Wayne said - thanks to everyone (well, nearly everyone...) for getting their results to us. Just to clarify that the individual team results aren't in game order. Cheers, Chris On 23 July 2013 09:44, Chris Penfold dlofnep_si...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The spirit scores from Tour 3 are available on the tournament website: http://www.malago.co.uk/tour/90results13spirit.html Congratulations to Nice Bristols 1 who won the women's division, and a three-way tie between Brighton Pier Pressure, Devon 4 and Camden Ultimate in the open division. Cheers, Chris __ BritDisc mailing list BritDisc@ranulf.net http://www.fysh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/britdisc Staying informed - http://www.ukultimate.com/staying-informed
