Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On 6/7/21 3:06 PM, Oğuz wrote: 7 Haziran 2021 Pazartesi tarihinde Dima Pasechnik yazdı: Where have you been taught to address a CS lecturer at Oxford University, a PhD, who, age-wise, could have been your father, I suppose, with f-word? There's more where that came from, but I'd rather keep them off this list. I'm on vacation; I'm not going to get involved in an extended discussion about this, just stop. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRUc...@case.eduhttp://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On 2021/06/06 04:48, Léa Gris wrote: Le 06/06/2021 à 11:33, Ilkka Virta écrivait : In fact, that generic 'they' is so common and accepted, that you just used it yourself in the part I quoted above. Either you're acting in bad faith, or you're so confused by your gender-neutral delusion that you don't remember that in normal people's grammar, "they" is a plural pronoun. Not in America: They has been officially recognized as correct by several key bodies such as the Associated Press. Similarly, the Chicago Manual of Style now notes that the singular "they" is common in informal communication (while acknowledging that it has yet to attain the same ubiquity in formal spaces). Merriam-Webster: a —used with a singular indefinite pronoun antecedent No one has to go if they don't want to.Everyone knew where they stood …— E. L. Doctorow b —used with a singular antecedent to refer to an unknown or unspecified person An employee with a grievance can file a complaint if they need to.The person who answered the phone said they didn't know where she was. c —used to refer to a single person whose gender is intentionally not revealed A student was found with a knife and a BB gun in their backpack Monday, district spokeswoman Renee Murphy confirmed. The student, whose name has not been released, will be disciplined according to district policies, Murphy said. They also face charges from outside law enforcement, she said.— Olivia Krauth d —used to refer to a single person whose gender identity is nonbinary (see nonbinary sense c) I knew certain things about … the person I was interviewing.… They had adopted their gender-neutral name a few years ago, when they began to consciously identify as nonbinary—that is, neither male nor female. They were in their late 20s, working as an event planner, applying to graduate school.— Amy Harmon APA endorses the use of “they” as a singular third-person pronoun in the seventh edition of the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association. This means it is officially good practice in scholarly writing to use the singular “they.”Oct 31, 2019 3 different sources say 'they' is fine for use in a singular context. How many more authorities do you think it will take before most people are convinced "they" is the preferred sex-indefinite pronoun in current, or modern use? I remember back when I was in grammar school this not being the case, deary, the way this non-dead language, English, keeps changing. You certainly wouldn't find this happening in Latin! ;-)
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On 2021/06/06 07:19, Alain D D Williams wrote: The important thing is that there is no intention to oppress/denigrate/... But it does _suggest_ that the default user is a male. or, speaking about historical use, that the default user was male. The problem comes when someone reads gendered language often and long enough, it becomes natural in one's speech and writing to follow that example.
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
7 Haziran 2021 Pazartesi tarihinde Dima Pasechnik yazdı: > > Where have you been taught to address a CS lecturer at Oxford University, > a PhD, who, age-wise, could have been your father, I suppose, with f-word? > There's more where that came from, but I'd rather keep them off this list. -- Oğuz
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 08:37:53PM +0200, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > Where have you been taught to address a CS lecturer at Oxford University, > a PhD, who, age-wise, could have been your father, I suppose, with f-word? > In which well-respected madrasah did it happen, so that we know? Please lads: just cool it. We do not want a punch up on this list. Regards -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 08:58:08PM +0300, O??uz wrote: > On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 1:52 PM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 05:59:17PM +0200, L??a Gris wrote: > > > Le 06/06/2021 ?? 16:34, O??uz ??crivait???: > > > > > > > Then there is no need to change anything. > > yes, there is a pressing need. > > How? Where? And who the fuck are you? This is your first message on > this list and it's total libtard bullshit, why should we even take you > seriously? I used to use my work email address a while ago to post to this list, but of course you can't be bothered to check. And who are you, a paid shill of a well-known equality and democracy champion, R.T.Erdogan, I presume? Where have you been taught to address a CS lecturer at Oxford University, a PhD, who, age-wise, could have been your father, I suppose, with f-word? In which well-respected madrasah did it happen, so that we know? D. https://pasechnik.info http://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/people/dmitrii.pasechnik/
Re: [PATCH] Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 06:12:07PM +0200, L??a Gris wrote: > Le 07/06/2021 ?? 14:25, Dima Pasechnik ??crivait???: > > > > This forum is technical, not political! > > > > Technical decisions might easily have political consequences, you cannot > > just separate these ones. > > You are turning it backward. > > This proposal is 100% political and 0% technical. Is the current gender imbalance in IT and CS purely political? It actually leads to technically biased AI solutions, as is well-documented, so it is technical as well as political. And, there are technical measures, long overdue, to improve it. One of them is improving teaching materials and documentation, as this is what we are after here. > > The current patches are nice. So I praise the very positive contributors > implementing it with clever avoidance of cleaving cancel culture custom > gender inclusive grammar. I would not have been that clever. > > I just let you know I have seen this live a year ago when cancel culture > advocates infiltrated the board of the French non-profit ISP organization of > which I am a member, and managed to get approval for an inclusive rewrite of > the association's statutes, with a significant loss of legibility, and > clearly for crassly political reasons. Oh, so the statutes became non-offensive to ethnic minorites, how crass! You might get ethnically diverse board members, oh no... > > This is the head reason I react so violently and remains very vigilant. Did you also go out and demonstrate against abolition of the use of the honorific "Mlle" in official French government documents back in 2012? Did it lead to complete and utter collapse of the French society? > > This is what is happening here. Now they just ask for mundane changes and > will probably accept the patch. They will come again and ask for inclusive > grammar, then come again and ask for removal of anything that is even > remotely related to slavery (Example: master-slave database replication), > racial discrimination (please remove blacklist and replace by > exclusion-list), sexual assault or anything even remotely related. They will IMHO it's just lack of imagination on your side, lack of own experience? (whereas I may refer to a childhood memory of me -- a gang of youth screaming "Yiddish mug" and chasing me near my school back in Moscow, in so racially harmonic USSR :-)) > not give-up until everything is expunged of every trace of anything until > total destruction or what's left is a bland ghostwith nothing left of > history and everyone has fought each-other. > > Then they will vanish and destroy other community, other history. Bring back guillotine, it was such a great device, and so full of historical significance :-) Dima > > > -- > L??a Gris > >
Re: [PATCH] Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 06:12:07PM +0200, Léa Gris wrote: > This is what is happening here. Now they just ask for mundane changes and > will probably accept the patch. They will come again and ask for inclusive > grammar, then come again and ask for removal of anything that is even > remotely related to slavery (Example: master-slave database replication), > racial discrimination (please remove blacklist and replace by > exclusion-list), sexual assault or anything even remotely related. They will > not give-up until everything is expunged of every trace of anything until > total destruction or what's left is a bland ghostwith nothing left of > history and everyone has fought each-other. Then in 20 years time, when a different set of words will be deemed unacceptable, repeat the whole exercise. Maybe demand changes sooner as some words are deemed bad in other languages/cultures/... > Then they will vanish and destroy other community, other history. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include
Re: [PATCH] Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
Le 07/06/2021 à 14:25, Dima Pasechnik écrivait : This forum is technical, not political! Technical decisions might easily have political consequences, you cannot just separate these ones. You are turning it backward. This proposal is 100% political and 0% technical. The current patches are nice. So I praise the very positive contributors implementing it with clever avoidance of cleaving cancel culture custom gender inclusive grammar. I would not have been that clever. I just let you know I have seen this live a year ago when cancel culture advocates infiltrated the board of the French non-profit ISP organization of which I am a member, and managed to get approval for an inclusive rewrite of the association's statutes, with a significant loss of legibility, and clearly for crassly political reasons. This is the head reason I react so violently and remains very vigilant. This is what is happening here. Now they just ask for mundane changes and will probably accept the patch. They will come again and ask for inclusive grammar, then come again and ask for removal of anything that is even remotely related to slavery (Example: master-slave database replication), racial discrimination (please remove blacklist and replace by exclusion-list), sexual assault or anything even remotely related. They will not give-up until everything is expunged of every trace of anything until total destruction or what's left is a bland ghostwith nothing left of history and everyone has fought each-other. Then they will vanish and destroy other community, other history. -- Léa Gris
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 10:28 AM Greg Wooledge wrote: > Out of these 5 choices, the one that seems to suck the *least*, according > to observed usage patterns in current written and spoken English, is > "they". I agree with Greg, *they* has become the dominant gender neutral pronoun in English. I prefer *they* over his/her as the latter is difficult to parse and makes for awkward reading. Also, as Greg mentions, there is historical precedent for the singular form of *they*.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
[PATCH] Avoid pronouns in documentation
In the context of the recent discussion regarding the use of pronouns in
the Bash documentation, here is an alternate patch which rewrites the
relevant sentences to avoid altogether the use of pronouns to refer to
an unspecified person.
(Someone may have once said, "If all your answers are bad ones, you're
asking the wrong question.")
I've left pronouns referring to specific individuals unchanged, on the
assumption that those pronouns are correct for those individuals.
--Andrew Church
http://achurch.org/
diff --git a/doc/bashref.texi b/doc/bashref.texi
index 620e13de..82e15900 100644
--- a/doc/bashref.texi
+++ b/doc/bashref.texi
@@ -7844,11 +7844,11 @@ the shell spawned to execute the script.
The restricted shell mode is only one component of a useful restricted
environment. It should be accompanied by setting @env{PATH} to a value
that allows execution of only a few verified commands (commands that
-allow shell escapes are particularly vulnerable), leaving the user
-in a non-writable directory other than his home directory after login,
-not allowing the restricted shell to execute shell scripts, and cleaning
-the environment of variables that cause some commands to modify their
-behavior (e.g., @env{VISUAL} or @env{PAGER}).
+allow shell escapes are particularly vulnerable), changing the current
+directory to a non-writable directory other than the user's home
+directory after login, not allowing the restricted shell to execute
+shell scripts, and cleaning the environment of variables that cause some
+commands to modify their behavior (e.g., @env{VISUAL} or @env{PAGER}).
Modern systems provide more secure ways to implement a restricted environment,
such as @code{jails}, @code{zones}, or @code{containers}.
diff --git a/doc/oldbash.texi b/doc/oldbash.texi
index b8e9a866..1e3f006e 100644
--- a/doc/oldbash.texi
+++ b/doc/oldbash.texi
@@ -8805,7 +8805,7 @@ fi
LOGIN_SHELL=true
-# If the user has her own init file, then use that one, else use
+# If the user has a custom init file, then use that one, else use
# the canonical one.
@c why in separate rc file instead of right here?
if [ -f ~/.bashrc ]; then
diff --git a/lib/readline/doc/rltech.texi b/lib/readline/doc/rltech.texi
index d234dd8b..caf90f55 100644
--- a/lib/readline/doc/rltech.texi
+++ b/lib/readline/doc/rltech.texi
@@ -1651,8 +1651,8 @@ main (int c, char **v)
Signals are asynchronous events sent to a process by the Unix kernel,
sometimes on behalf of another process. They are intended to indicate
-exceptional events, like a user pressing the interrupt key on his terminal,
-or a network connection being broken. There is a class of signals that can
+exceptional events, like a user pressing the terminal's interrupt key, or
+a network connection being broken. There is a class of signals that can
be sent to the process currently reading input from the keyboard. Since
Readline changes the terminal attributes when it is called, it needs to
perform special processing when such a signal is received in order to
@@ -2199,9 +2199,9 @@ shell variables and hostnames.
@deftypevar int rl_completion_query_items
Up to this many items will be displayed in response to a
-possible-completions call. After that, readline asks the user if she is sure
-she wants to see them all. The default value is 100. A negative value
-indicates that Readline should never ask the user.
+possible-completions call. After that, Readline asks the user for
+confirmation of whether to display them all. The default value is 100.
+A negative value indicates that Readline should never ask the user.
@end deftypevar
@deftypevar {int} rl_completion_append_character
diff --git a/lib/readline/doc/rluser.texi b/lib/readline/doc/rluser.texi
index f4d4860d..19bb395e 100644
--- a/lib/readline/doc/rluser.texi
+++ b/lib/readline/doc/rluser.texi
@@ -338,8 +338,8 @@ typed by the user or be part of the contents of the current
line.
Although the Readline library comes with a set of Emacs-like
keybindings installed by default, it is possible to use a different set
of keybindings.
-Any user can customize programs that use Readline by putting
-commands in an @dfn{inputrc} file, conventionally in his home directory.
+Any user can customize programs that use Readline by putting commands
+in an @dfn{inputrc} file, conventionally in the user's home directory.
The name of this
@ifset BashFeatures
file is taken from the value of the shell variable @env{INPUTRC}. If
Re: [PATCH] Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 01:57:58PM +0200, felix wrote: > I totally agree with L??a: Awesome patch, but... > > Please stop this troll! > > As children of Gaia for me, there's no matter if Greg is a woman or L??a a > men... Are bash male or female!? > > This forum is technical, not political! Technical decisions might easily have political consequences, you cannot just separate these ones. > > I've already seen many human groups splited because of stupid consideration > who was not linked with the core interest of group. > > My purpose: Keep doc readable, until altering them become required (by laws). these kinds of grammar bias considerations are not not enforceable by laws, and you know this. > > On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 02:08:09PM +0200, L??a Gris wrote: > > Le 06/06/2021 ?? 06:35, G. Branden Robinson ??crivait???: > > > Here you go, if you're inclined. Minimally invasive and decidedly > > > non-revolutionary in terms on English lexicon. > > > > Your careful patch not using custom grammar is admirable. Although I remain > > alarmed because this is a work to obey a demand from cancel culture tenants. > > > > With all your clever carefulness in patching this. It remains a rewrite of > > history motivated by political reasons from a lobbying group of people > > spreading their damaging delusions everywhere. Yeah yeah, "get girls into STEM" delusion. :P French Revolution and voting rights for women were also history rewrites motivated by political reasons of a lobbying group of delusional people... > > > > > > > > -- > > L??a Gris > > > > > > -- > F??lix Hauri -- http://www.f-hauri.ch > Dima https://pasechnik.info
Re: [PATCH] Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
I totally agree with Léa: Awesome patch, but... Please stop this troll! As children of Gaia for me, there's no matter if Greg is a woman or Léa a men... Are bash male or female!? This forum is technical, not political! I've already seen many human groups splited because of stupid consideration who was not linked with the core interest of group. My purpose: Keep doc readable, until altering them become required (by laws). On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 02:08:09PM +0200, Léa Gris wrote: > Le 06/06/2021 à 06:35, G. Branden Robinson écrivait : > > Here you go, if you're inclined. Minimally invasive and decidedly > > non-revolutionary in terms on English lexicon. > > Your careful patch not using custom grammar is admirable. Although I remain > alarmed because this is a work to obey a demand from cancel culture tenants. > > With all your clever carefulness in patching this. It remains a rewrite of > history motivated by political reasons from a lobbying group of people > spreading their damaging delusions everywhere. > > > > -- > Léa Gris > > -- Félix Hauri -- http://www.f-hauri.ch
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Mon, Jun 07, 2021 at 12:52:08PM +0200, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > I know a number of French female academics, who would just laugh at the > latter claim. > To start with, they, married, but retained their maiden surnames, say, X, > cannot even manage to get > them addressed by official instances and businesses as Mme X, > and not "housewife of the house of Y" (which is what one French way > to addrress a married woman roughly means, IMHO). > One of them tells a "nice" story about her attempts to rent a flat in > Marsielle, > where she has a job (while her spouse was based in CERN, Geneve, so she had > to commute for years). > Of course a married woman trying to rent a flat in her name is a huge no-no > in 21st century France... What has renting a flat in France got to do with the bash manual page ? No one disputes that the sexes are treated differently but tying completely unrelated things together is not the way to address matters and change things. Ms Gris wrote she "take no offense when a documentation ...". I accept that some others might take offence. However it does not seem to be a major issue, if you want to make a change address things like renting flats in France. Also: please stop promoting the meme that it is always women who are disadvantaged. That is not true: have some kids, get divorced and look to see where the kids go. The kids see dad if mother wants to. If mother does not obey court orders they are not enforced (in many countries, eg UK). -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include
Re: Prefer non-gender specific pronouns
On Sun, Jun 06, 2021 at 05:59:17PM +0200, L??a Gris wrote: > Le 06/06/2021 ?? 16:34, O??uz ??crivait???: > > > Then there is no need to change anything. yes, there is a pressing need. > > Exactly. > As a woman, I take no offense when a documentation illustrate a fictive male > character. (and as I will illustrate below, in French pronouns are tuned in > gender and number with the object). I am not offended by the wording of the > current English Bash documentation either. I am more annoyed by the > over-abundance of children's stories in which women are depicted as 1950's > good, dedicated and submissive housewives, cooking diner and taking care of > kids. > > But seriously, in the few Bash manual sentences giving a male gender to the > illustrative user character. This is light-years away of a worthy concern to > me. > > I even predict this would get fixed with consensus if when more women will > be involved in IT. With the present techbro "culture", it might be going the opposite way. It has to be fixed if one wants more women to be involved in IT, CS, and exact sciences (STEM). As an academic, involved for many years in undegraduate and graduate admissions, and high school outreach, in Singapore and UK, I see a huge self-bias of females against being involved in IT and STEM, in no small measure due to these little things like using male pronouns in various relevant texts and materials. All of this has litle to do with the latest "cancel culture" events (which are on the other hand a result of the pressure cooker getting to the point of exploding - if gender etc equality was taken seriously in the past 30 years these explosive things were not as explosive...) > > Interestingly for the story: In the 1960's and 1970's, when we were more > widely seen as housewives, we were more represented in IT, science and > engineering overall than of today, that gender equity and equality are > accepted modern standards. I know a number of French female academics, who would just laugh at the latter claim. To start with, they, married, but retained their maiden surnames, say, X, cannot even manage to get them addressed by official instances and businesses as Mme X, and not "housewife of the house of Y" (which is what one French way to addrress a married woman roughly means, IMHO). One of them tells a "nice" story about her attempts to rent a flat in Marsielle, where she has a job (while her spouse was based in CERN, Geneve, so she had to commute for years). Of course a married woman trying to rent a flat in her name is a huge no-no in 21st century France... > > And no, I can't believe rewriting Bash documentation with gender neutral is > a good thing or that it can contribute to evening the balance of gender > representation in IT either. And as an academic, I am certain that it is a small step in the right direction, using either gender neutral pro-nouns, or only female pronouns, or (ugly) her/his. > > > > What word(s) are used in translations of the manual into languages other > > > than > > > English ? Do similar problems exist. > > > > In mine, no. Turkish has only one pronoun for male, female, and inanimate. > > In mine, possessive pronouns are gendered to the possessed target. > Example with current Bash documentation place that have been subject to > these gender-neutral changes, translated to French: > > > in a non-writable directory other than his home directory after login, > > dans un r??pertoire autre que son r??pertoire HOME apr??s connexion, > ^^^ > French "son" (his) is male because "r??pertoire" (directory) is male in > French. User character's gender is not even mentioned. I could tell you details of Russian grammar in that respect, where even verbs might have different conjugactions depending on the geneder of the subject. But this is all beside the point: languages and societies are conservative, and changes towards fairness are difficult and even schokingi at times. Yet they are needed. Dmitrii Pasechnik https://pasechnik.info > > > -- > L??a Gris > >
