Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-07-09 Thread Paul Smith
On Sat, 2022-06-25 at 17:47 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: > This leaves me with two options: > >    1. Stop using gnulib, or at least sharply limit the modules we > will include to those with trivial-enough configurations. >    2. Abandon the build.sh script and require an existing make > program in or

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-27 Thread David A. Wheeler
> On Jun 27, 2022, at 9:48 AM, Paul Smith wrote: > > As mentioned, the goal of "build.sh" is to allow systems without an > already-existing make program to bootstrap themselves, by providing a > way to build GNU make without using "make". I think it's important that there be *a* way to rebuild

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-27 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 22:00 -0400, Dmitry Goncharov wrote: > What was the original driving force to introduce build.sh? As mentioned, the goal of "build.sh" is to allow systems without an already-existing make program to bootstrap themselves, by providing a way to build GNU make without using "mak

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Dmitry Goncharov
On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 5:48 PM Paul Smith wrote: > Seems like it's not so much that the patch was rejected; indeed they > seem to agree there's a bug. But they wanted more work on it and it > sort of fell apart. I have no idea how much effort it would be to push > hard enough to get a change me

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Dmitry Goncharov
On Sunday, June 26, 2022, Paul Smith wrote > > > I would prefer to have that fixed in gnulib, than continue to maintain > a local copy just to avoid this issue. Then there is no choice to drop gnulib and build.sh should go. Since you asked for opinions, my opinion is that maintaining a mini make

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 16:57 -0400, Dmitry Goncharov wrote: > Have you considered to to avoid glob from gnulib? Make has its one > impl of glob which it uses on certain systems. > We could use this impl and maintain it on all systems. While the original issue came up WRT glob, in actuality the prob

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Dmitry Goncharov
On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 10:11 AM Paul Smith wrote: > This really came up because I was trying to find a way to include the > latest gnulib globbing library. Adding "glob" to this pulls in a HUGE > number of prerequisites. Have you considered to to avoid glob from gnulib? Make has its one impl of

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Howard Chu via Bug reports and discussion for GNU make
Herring, Daniel - 0447 - MITLL wrote: > On Jun 26, 2022, at 3:30 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > How do people bootstrap systems nowadays? Is it only via > cross-compilation? > > > Another way to bootstrap is to have a native tool chain that is less > capable…. For example, an embedded device ma

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Herring, Daniel - 0447 - MITLL
On Jun 26, 2022, at 3:30 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: How do people bootstrap systems nowadays? Is it only via cross-compilation? Another way to bootstrap is to have a native tool chain that is less capable…. For example, an embedded device may come with an old or proprietary shell and compiler.

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Eli Zaretskii
> From: Paul Smith > Cc: bug-make@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 15:06:36 -0400 > > > No, I'm talking about not using Gnulib only for stage-1 build, the > > one that produces a Make binary capable of building the full > > version.  I was not talking about avoiding to use Gnulib for the > > fina

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 17:39 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > The problem is that the process for "make-less" systems in the past > > has been: run configure, then run build.sh.  But we won't be able > > to use the environment created by configure in this "new" build.sh, > > because it works in tande

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Eli Zaretskii
> From: Paul Smith > Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 10:11:12 -0400 > > > Can you list the Gnulib functions we currently use? > > You can find them in the bootstrap.conf file: > > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/make.git/tree/bootstrap.conf > > See the list at the end. OK, thanks. The list is very

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 07:34 +0100, Sven C. Dack wrote: > 3. Allow to build a minimal Make executable, which provides basic and > traditional Make functionality and does not rely on gnulib, and then > use it as a bootstrap. It's certainly a possibility. But there is already so much ifdef etc. in G

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 08:41 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > It is sad that Gnulib maintainers aren't prepared to cater to a GNU > project, and an important one such as Make.  These are special > requirements that only a handful of GNU project could ever have, and > for good reasons, so supporting the

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Paul Smith
On Sun, 2022-06-26 at 02:14 +0200, Henrik Carlqvist wrote: > Would  this "old version of make" have to be GNU make? It would need to be some version of make that is supported by automake. As far as I'm aware, automake-generated makefiles are currently intended to run with any POSIX-compliant vers

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread David Boyce
The obvious end-point of #2 is to add a make-4.3.tar.gz file to future make packages and modify build.sh to unpack and use it. This might involve renaming the "inner" script to "build-4.3.sh" or similar. But I also have the same question: what are the real-world cases where build.sh is needed?

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-26 Thread Philip Guenther
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 12:48 PM Paul Smith wrote: > I'm trying to decide what the future is for GNU make's "build.sh" > bootstrapping script. As you may recall, this script is provided to > allow GNU make to build on systems which don't already have an instance > of make installed. Its goal is t

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-25 Thread Sven C. Dack
Hello, developers causing a "Catch 22" paradox is not new. You want to avoid such software, or at least work around it with a big margin. Sharply limiting the use of gnulib here may not provide such a margin and cause repeated trouble in the future. Your condition of "to those with trivial-enough

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-25 Thread Eli Zaretskii
> From: Paul Smith > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2022 17:47:47 -0400 > > I had a discussion about this with the Gnulib maintainers a while ago: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2019-09/msg00041.html > > However the gnulib maintainers were disinclined to modify the practices > of the gnul

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-25 Thread Henrik Carlqvist
On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 15:28:52 -0800 Britton Kerin wrote: > On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 1:48 PM Paul Smith wrote: > > If #2 is chosen, then a bootstrap process would involve first obtaining > > an older version of make, such as GNU make 4.3 or lower, and building > > that with its build.sh, then using t

Re: Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-25 Thread Britton Kerin
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 1:48 PM Paul Smith wrote: > I'm trying to decide what the future is for GNU make's "build.sh" > bootstrapping script. As you may recall, this script is provided to > allow GNU make to build on systems which don't already have an instance > of make installed. Its goal is to b

Goodbye to GNU make's "build.sh" ... ?

2022-06-25 Thread Paul Smith
I'm trying to decide what the future is for GNU make's "build.sh" bootstrapping script. As you may recall, this script is provided to allow GNU make to build on systems which don't already have an instance of make installed. Its goal is to build the first make binary, without of course all the fanc