Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Hendrik Schreiber]

>> 
>> From my perspective, something needs to change, as I found it
>> completely impossible to install the old Visual Studio releases the
>> JDK demands (and it took ages just to find them). Requiring outdated
>> tooling to build the JDK really isn't great.
>> 
>> Stephen
>> 
> 
> I agree. This is what I meant when I wrote earlier:
> 
> "Also, installing Visual Studio could be easier by making sure that we
> always can build with the latest community version, early when it comes
> out. Since it is not so easy to find community/express/whatever downloads
> for earlier versions of Visual Studio. "

I guess, if you have a clean system that you use for nothing else but playing 
with OpenJDK, it’s relatively easy.

But I have found that keeping multiple VS installations in parallel on a single 
machine is challenging to say the least. Whenever I want to do something for 
OpenJDK, I fear for other build environments that have different needs. The 
gcc/clang suggestion was born out of the assumption that they are much easier 
to manage/choose from the command line. I still remember the hoops one had to 
jump through to get a 64bit compiler installed under VS. This all may just be 
“perceived” difficulties due to unfamiliarity, but they’re still real.

The Visual Studio Build Tools may solve most of the issues I have with VS. And 
perhaps it’s less of a monster to download.

-hendrik

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Thomas Stüfe]

On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:40 PM, Stephen Colebourne 
wrote:

> On 12 March 2018 at 15:36, Erik Joelsson  wrote:
> > On 2018-03-12 03:18, Magnus Ihse Bursie wrote:
> > Just to comment on this. Microsoft has introduced standalone C++ build
> > tools:
> >
> > http://landinghub.visualstudio.com/visual-cpp-build-tools
> >
> > I haven't looked into it yet, but it seems to be a much more lightweight
> > alternative to installing Visual Studio if you just want to be able to
> build
> > something. We should certainly make sure this works when full support
> for VS
> > 2017 is in.
>
> From my perspective, something needs to change, as I found it
> completely impossible to install the old Visual Studio releases the
> JDK demands (and it took ages just to find them). Requiring outdated
> tooling to build the JDK really isn't great.
>
> Stephen
>

I agree. This is what I meant when I wrote earlier:

"Also, installing Visual Studio could be easier by making sure that we
always can build with the latest community version, early when it comes
out. Since it is not so easy to find community/express/whatever downloads
for earlier versions of Visual Studio. "

Unfortunately, this is sometimes a major effort, see e.g. the many VS2017
related patches of the last months.

..Thomas

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Stephen Colebourne]

On 12 March 2018 at 15:36, Erik Joelsson  wrote:
> On 2018-03-12 03:18, Magnus Ihse Bursie wrote:
> Just to comment on this. Microsoft has introduced standalone C++ build
> tools:
>
> http://landinghub.visualstudio.com/visual-cpp-build-tools
>
> I haven't looked into it yet, but it seems to be a much more lightweight
> alternative to installing Visual Studio if you just want to be able to build
> something. We should certainly make sure this works when full support for VS
> 2017 is in.

>From my perspective, something needs to change, as I found it
completely impossible to install the old Visual Studio releases the
JDK demands (and it took ages just to find them). Requiring outdated
tooling to build the JDK really isn't great.

Stephen

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Thomas Stüfe]

On Mon 12. Mar 2018 at 20:19, Magnus Ihse Bursie <
magnus.ihse.bur...@oracle.com> wrote:

> On 2018-03-12 17:13, Thomas Stüfe wrote:
>
> I wonder how much of the perceived difficulty of Windows as build platform
> is really the fault of Visual Studio. I find it quite easy to install.
>
> But the required Cygwin install could be better documented: I have a text
> file somewhere with all required packets, but I do not know if an official
> documentation exists.
>
> doc/building.md?
>
> I quote:
>
> Apart from the basic Cygwin installation, the following packages must also
> be
> installed:
>
>   * `autoconf`
>   * `make`
>   * `zip`
>   * `unzip`
>
> Often, you can install these packages using the following command line:
> ```
> /setup-x86_64 -q -P autoconf -P make -P unzip -P zip
> ```
>
> Nowadays, it's actually not more complicated than that. My personal
> recommendation is btw to install apt-cyg (
> https://github.com/transcode-open/apt-cyg) to make package installation
> even more "debian-like"; then you can just do "apt-cyg install autoconf
> make unzip zip". I might turn this into an official recommendation by
> including it in the build readme at some time. :-)
>
>
I did not know that. Very interesting, will try. We should talk more often
about these things :)

..Thomas


> /Magnus
>
>
>
> Then there is the annoying freetype dependency, which soon will be history
> thanks to Phil Race (8193017).
>
> Also, installing Visual Studio could be easier by making sure that we
> always can build with the latest community version, early when it comes
> out. Since it is not so easy to find community/express/whatever downloads
> for earlier versions of Visual Studio.
>
> (Just my 5c).
>
> Best Regards, Thomas
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Magnus Ihse Bursie <
> magnus.ihse.bur...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Hendrik,
>>
>> This sounds like something that should be discussed on build-dev, rather
>> than jdk-dev.
>>
>> Short answer to your question: There's no technical reason why it would
>> not be possible to use clang or gcc on Windows. However, the code is full
>> of assumptions that "compiling on Windows" == "compiling using the
>> Microsoft toolchain", and it will certainly take a lot of effort to hunt
>> all these down and fix them properly.
>>
>> Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. It's unlikely that the
>> resulting binary will have any significant change in performance (at least
>> not any positive one), and it is likely to continuously break since people
>> will be adding new code with the "windows" == "microsoft toolchain"
>> assumption.
>>
>> Question: Is the Visual Studio Express (
>> https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-express/) such a hassle to
>> install?
>>
>> /Magnus
>>
>>
>> On 2018-03-06 12:17, Hendrik Schreiber wrote:
>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> inspired by the recent news that Chrome ditched the Microsoft C++
>>> compiler and replaced it with gcc/clang (
>>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/chrome-on-windows-ditches-microsofts-compiler-now-uses-clang/),
>>> I’m wondering wether that’s possible and desirable for OpenJDK, too.
>>>
>>>  From my point of view: Yes.
>>>
>>> Downloading, installing etc. Visual Studio is a major pain for anybody
>>> usually working on another platform. Whenever I encounter a bug that’s
>>> Windows specific, I pretty much always give up the idea to create a fix and
>>> instead just report a bug. It’s just too much of a hassle to create a
>>> working build environment.
>>>
>>> So has migrating to gcc/clang for Windows been evaluated? Is it an
>>> option at all? Would it make things easier or harder? What do you think?
>>> Besides ease of use, how would such a move affect performance?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -hendrik
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Magnus Ihse Bursie]

On 2018-03-12 17:13, Thomas Stüfe wrote:
I wonder how much of the perceived difficulty of Windows as build 
platform is really the fault of Visual Studio. I find it quite easy to 
install.


But the required Cygwin install could be better documented: I have a 
text file somewhere with all required packets, but I do not know if an 
official documentation exists.

doc/building.md?

I quote:

Apart from the basic Cygwin installation, the following packages must 
also be

installed:

  * `autoconf`
  * `make`
  * `zip`
  * `unzip`

Often, you can install these packages using the following command line:
```
/setup-x86_64 -q -P autoconf -P make -P unzip -P zip
```

Nowadays, it's actually not more complicated than that. My personal 
recommendation is btw to install apt-cyg 
(https://github.com/transcode-open/apt-cyg) to make package installation 
even more "debian-like"; then you can just do "apt-cyg install autoconf 
make unzip zip". I might turn this into an official recommendation by 
including it in the build readme at some time. :-)


/Magnus



Then there is the annoying freetype dependency, which soon will be 
history thanks to Phil Race (8193017).


Also, installing Visual Studio could be easier by making sure that we 
always can build with the latest community version, early when it 
comes out. Since it is not so easy to find community/express/whatever 
downloads for earlier versions of Visual Studio.


(Just my 5c).

Best Regards, Thomas




On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Magnus Ihse Bursie 
> 
wrote:


Hi Hendrik,

This sounds like something that should be discussed on build-dev,
rather than jdk-dev.

Short answer to your question: There's no technical reason why it
would not be possible to use clang or gcc on Windows. However, the
code is full of assumptions that "compiling on Windows" ==
"compiling using the Microsoft toolchain", and it will certainly
take a lot of effort to hunt all these down and fix them properly.

Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. It's unlikely
that the resulting binary will have any significant change in
performance (at least not any positive one), and it is likely to
continuously break since people will be adding new code with the
"windows" == "microsoft toolchain" assumption.

Question: Is the Visual Studio Express
(https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-express/
) such a
hassle to install?

/Magnus


On 2018-03-06 12:17, Hendrik Schreiber wrote:

Hey,

inspired by the recent news that Chrome ditched the Microsoft
C++ compiler and replaced it with gcc/clang

(https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/chrome-on-windows-ditches-microsofts-compiler-now-uses-clang/

),
I’m wondering wether that’s possible and desirable for
OpenJDK, too.

 From my point of view: Yes.

Downloading, installing etc. Visual Studio is a major pain for
anybody usually working on another platform. Whenever I
encounter a bug that’s Windows specific, I pretty much always
give up the idea to create a fix and instead just report a
bug. It’s just too much of a hassle to create a working build
environment.

So has migrating to gcc/clang for Windows been evaluated? Is
it an option at all? Would it make things easier or harder?
What do you think? Besides ease of use, how would such a move
affect performance?

Cheers,

-hendrik

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Thomas Stüfe]

 I wonder how much of the perceived difficulty of Windows as build platform
is really the fault of Visual Studio. I find it quite easy to install.

But the required Cygwin install could be better documented: I have a text
file somewhere with all required packets, but I do not know if an official
documentation exists.

Then there is the annoying freetype dependency, which soon will be history
thanks to Phil Race (8193017).

Also, installing Visual Studio could be easier by making sure that we
always can build with the latest community version, early when it comes
out. Since it is not so easy to find community/express/whatever downloads
for earlier versions of Visual Studio.

(Just my 5c).

Best Regards, Thomas




On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Magnus Ihse Bursie <
magnus.ihse.bur...@oracle.com> wrote:

> Hi Hendrik,
>
> This sounds like something that should be discussed on build-dev, rather
> than jdk-dev.
>
> Short answer to your question: There's no technical reason why it would
> not be possible to use clang or gcc on Windows. However, the code is full
> of assumptions that "compiling on Windows" == "compiling using the
> Microsoft toolchain", and it will certainly take a lot of effort to hunt
> all these down and fix them properly.
>
> Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. It's unlikely that the
> resulting binary will have any significant change in performance (at least
> not any positive one), and it is likely to continuously break since people
> will be adding new code with the "windows" == "microsoft toolchain"
> assumption.
>
> Question: Is the Visual Studio Express (https://www.visualstudio.com/
> vs/visual-studio-express/) such a hassle to install?
>
> /Magnus
>
>
> On 2018-03-06 12:17, Hendrik Schreiber wrote:
>
>> Hey,
>>
>> inspired by the recent news that Chrome ditched the Microsoft C++
>> compiler and replaced it with gcc/clang (https://arstechnica.com/gadge
>> ts/2018/03/chrome-on-windows-ditches-microsofts-compiler-now-uses-clang/),
>> I’m wondering wether that’s possible and desirable for OpenJDK, too.
>>
>>  From my point of view: Yes.
>>
>> Downloading, installing etc. Visual Studio is a major pain for anybody
>> usually working on another platform. Whenever I encounter a bug that’s
>> Windows specific, I pretty much always give up the idea to create a fix and
>> instead just report a bug. It’s just too much of a hassle to create a
>> working build environment.
>>
>> So has migrating to gcc/clang for Windows been evaluated? Is it an option
>> at all? Would it make things easier or harder? What do you think? Besides
>> ease of use, how would such a move affect performance?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -hendrik
>>
>
>

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Magnus Ihse Bursie]

> 12 mars 2018 kl. 16:36 skrev Erik Joelsson :
> 
> 
>> On 2018-03-12 03:18, Magnus Ihse Bursie wrote:
>> Question: Is the Visual Studio Express 
>> (https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-express/) such a hassle to 
>> install?
> Just to comment on this. Microsoft has introduced standalone C++ build tools:
> 
> http://landinghub.visualstudio.com/visual-cpp-build-tools
> 
> I haven't looked into it yet, but it seems to be a much more lightweight 
> alternative to installing Visual Studio if you just want to be able to build 
> something. We should certainly make sure this works when full support for VS 
> 2017 is in.

That's nice! I have missed that one.

/Magnus

> 
> /Erik

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Erik Joelsson]

On 2018-03-12 03:18, Magnus Ihse Bursie wrote:
Question: Is the Visual Studio Express 
(https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-express/) such a hassle 
to install?
Just to comment on this. Microsoft has introduced standalone C++ build 
tools:


http://landinghub.visualstudio.com/visual-cpp-build-tools

I haven't looked into it yet, but it seems to be a much more lightweight 
alternative to installing Visual Studio if you just want to be able to 
build something. We should certainly make sure this works when full 
support for VS 2017 is in.


/Erik

Re: Windows: Replace VisualStudio with gcc/clang?

[Magnus Ihse Bursie]

Hi Hendrik,

This sounds like something that should be discussed on build-dev, rather 
than jdk-dev.


Short answer to your question: There's no technical reason why it would 
not be possible to use clang or gcc on Windows. However, the code is 
full of assumptions that "compiling on Windows" == "compiling using the 
Microsoft toolchain", and it will certainly take a lot of effort to hunt 
all these down and fix them properly.


Personally, I don't think it's worth the effort. It's unlikely that the 
resulting binary will have any significant change in performance (at 
least not any positive one), and it is likely to continuously break 
since people will be adding new code with the "windows" == "microsoft 
toolchain" assumption.


Question: Is the Visual Studio Express 
(https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-express/) such a hassle 
to install?


/Magnus

On 2018-03-06 12:17, Hendrik Schreiber wrote:

Hey,

inspired by the recent news that Chrome ditched the Microsoft C++ compiler and 
replaced it with gcc/clang 
(https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/chrome-on-windows-ditches-microsofts-compiler-now-uses-clang/),
 I’m wondering wether that’s possible and desirable for OpenJDK, too.

 From my point of view: Yes.

Downloading, installing etc. Visual Studio is a major pain for anybody usually 
working on another platform. Whenever I encounter a bug that’s Windows 
specific, I pretty much always give up the idea to create a fix and instead 
just report a bug. It’s just too much of a hassle to create a working build 
environment.

So has migrating to gcc/clang for Windows been evaluated? Is it an option at 
all? Would it make things easier or harder? What do you think? Besides ease of 
use, how would such a move affect performance?

Cheers,

-hendrik