Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

I usually warn bands that I tend to run dances just a little shorter 
than other callers.  My habit is about 5-and-a-bit dances an hour, 12 
minutes (give or take) from the start of teaching one to the start of 
teaching the next, but that definitely varies.  Size, energy, chattiness 
and skill level of the crowd make a huge difference, symmetry (or not) 
of the dance, the music (does it fit the dance really well?  Is it just 
a smokin' tune that should run a little longer?  Is it really fast, so 
the dancers will poop out earlier?), even the floor condition can affect 
how long I'll run.  I have a really hard time estimating when I'm 
halfway through a dance, and much prefer to give bands 3-and-out, though 
I frequently flex on that if they've got another tune in the wings, as 
Ryan mentions below.


Reading the responses from other callers tells me that my 12-minute 
timing sense isn't far off from other folks, but it may be that here in 
the Bay Area I run a little shorter than average.  Seems like the bands 
are always changing tunes right when my spidey-sense tells me it's time 
for "last 3".


Kalia Kliban
Sebastopol, CA

On 4/27/2015 2:20 PM, Ryan Smith via Callers wrote:

There's a band I work with on a pretty regular basis that usually
follows my lead, but will occasionally ask "For this set, can we choose
when to go out?"  I trust them not to run it too long, and letting them
choose when they go out gives them a lot of control over the musical
experience, which ultimately seems to work well for the dancing
experience.  I'll sometimes signal a band when they're not ready to go
out yet, and I'm usually willing to be negotiated up from 3 more times
to 5.  More than that, and we're starting to wear out the dancers.

I think it's worth mentioning that if you know from the outset that you
are going to want to run a dance longer or shorter than your average,
for whatever reason, that if you communicate that to the band in advance
it will help make sure that you're not cutting them off just as they
wind up or leaving them sitting on a tune that they really didn't mean
to play that long.  I know some bands that like to be signaled when you
get to the middle of the dance, and will even ask to be signaled a
little early for certain sets of tunes.

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

The biggest problem with this is that the leader of the band is a good
friend..who is always right...and I have the honor of being
this person's favorite caller. Tricky.

I'll take notes and review them with the band afterward. Over a beverage.

-Amy



> On Apr 27, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers 
>  wrote:
>
> Yeesh.  This sounds like a recipe for a difficult evening, unless it's one of 
> those very rare bands where the musicians are really watching what's 
> happening on the floor.
>
> Do you have the option of not working with this band in the future?
>
> Kalia
>
>> On 4/27/2015 1:58 PM, Donald Perley via Callers wrote:
>> Just a guess.. they have arrangements for each set and feel miffed if
>> they get cut short without getting through each variation.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have an oddity coming up: a band for which I am calling has asked to
>>> take the lead on when to end the dances. I figure one evening of that
>>> can't hurt, if it keeps the band happy. I will take notes. The leader
>>> of this band has control issues and knows what's best for everyone.
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> ___
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Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Ryan Smith via Callers]

There's a band I work with on a pretty regular basis that usually follows
my lead, but will occasionally ask "For this set, can we choose when to go
out?"  I trust them not to run it too long, and letting them choose when
they go out gives them a lot of control over the musical experience, which
ultimately seems to work well for the dancing experience.  I'll sometimes
signal a band when they're not ready to go out yet, and I'm usually willing
to be negotiated up from 3 more times to 5.  More than that, and we're
starting to wear out the dancers.

I think it's worth mentioning that if you know from the outset that you are
going to want to run a dance longer or shorter than your average, for
whatever reason, that if you communicate that to the band in advance it
will help make sure that you're not cutting them off just as they wind up
or leaving them sitting on a tune that they really didn't mean to play that
long.  I know some bands that like to be signaled when you get to the
middle of the dance, and will even ask to be signaled a little early for
certain sets of tunes.

Part of the reason for using a stopwatch (vs. a timer) is that it doesn't
tell you how much longer to run the dance.  It just tells you how long you
have run the dance, making it easy to be responsive to the music and the
dance and the dancers and the weather and all the other environmental
factors that come into play.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Donald Perley via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Just a guess.. they have arrangements for each set and feel miffed if
> they get cut short without getting through each variation.
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers
>  wrote:
>
> >
> > I have an oddity coming up: a band for which I am calling has asked to
> > take the lead on when to end the dances. I figure one evening of that
> > can't hurt, if it keeps the band happy. I will take notes. The leader
> > of this band has control issues and knows what's best for everyone.
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Kalia Kliban via Callers]

Yeesh.  This sounds like a recipe for a difficult evening, unless it's 
one of those very rare bands where the musicians are really watching 
what's happening on the floor.


Do you have the option of not working with this band in the future?

Kalia

On 4/27/2015 1:58 PM, Donald Perley via Callers wrote:

Just a guess.. they have arrangements for each set and feel miffed if
they get cut short without getting through each variation.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers
 wrote:



I have an oddity coming up: a band for which I am calling has asked to
take the lead on when to end the dances. I figure one evening of that
can't hurt, if it keeps the band happy. I will take notes. The leader
of this band has control issues and knows what's best for everyone.

___
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Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Donald Perley via Callers]

Just a guess.. they have arrangements for each set and feel miffed if
they get cut short without getting through each variation.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers
 wrote:

>
> I have an oddity coming up: a band for which I am calling has asked to
> take the lead on when to end the dances. I figure one evening of that
> can't hurt, if it keeps the band happy. I will take notes. The leader
> of this band has control issues and knows what's best for everyone.

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

My mileage varies considerably in numbers of dances I get through in
an evening. The biggest factors are 1) number of beginners, 2)
chattiness/inattention of dancers, 3) flexibility of band, 4) length
of break.

I have tried to pay attention to specific couples and track them in a
dance, but ALWAYS get confused. Were they twos and now are ones? That
just doesn't work for me. Nor does counting iterations of a dance, for
the same reasons others have mentioned. I use a watch or clock and
even then I forget what time they started. I mostly go by feel.

I prepare 10-11 dances for a 2 1/2 hour dance (our regular dance),
usually getting 9-10 done, and 12-13 for a 3 hour dance, usually doing
at least 12. I have had to pull out more once in a while.

I have an oddity coming up: a band for which I am calling has asked to
take the lead on when to end the dances. I figure one evening of that
can't hurt, if it keeps the band happy. I will take notes. The leader
of this band has control issues and knows what's best for everyone.

Generally I plan for 15 minutes from start to start of each dance and
if I get in more, that's great.

-Amy



> On Apr 26, 2015, at 5:54 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers 
>  wrote:
>
> Just polling the masses here--how long do you generally run your dances (in 
> times through the dance, time take, couples going up and back, etc.)? How 
> many dances do you generally manage to fit into a 3-hour contra evening? I've 
> heard different wisdom from different folks and am curious to add some more 
> data points!
>
> Cheers,
> Maia
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Tim Klein via Callers]

I usually get 10 to 12 dances in a 3 hour evening with break. The difference 
seems to come down to how much time I spend teaching, since actual dance time 
is fairly constant. 

Lines at our dance run 8 to 14 couples, so spotting a couple works well -- down 
and maybe a little way back. I watch the clock more to hit the break and end of 
evening at the right time, not for time spent dancing.
At the end of some evenings, I have 5 to 8 experienced couples and dances run 
much shorter - no walk through required and dancers get tired/bored quickly. In 
the extreme case, 6 dances in the last 50 minutes.
For variety, I called a "small plates" contra dance one evening - easy dances 
with short or no walk through, and iterations limited to 8 to 10 times through. 
That was well received by dancers, though the band (despite the warning) had to 
adjust their thinking after the first dance.
Tim KleinKnoxville, TN
  From: Lenore Frigo via Callers 
 To: Maia McCormick  
Cc: "callers@lists.sharedweight.net"  
 Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 3:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

I also use a stopwatch. As a new caller, I find it difficult to use any of the 
other methods because they require me to calculate and/or REMEMBER one more bit 
of information and my brain is already quite fully engaged. When I started out 
calling guest calling just 1-2 dances per night, I was fine tracking tune 
changes, but calling all night long, it all blurs together too much.

I don't use the stop watch to tell me when to stop the dance, but it's the 
perfect way to answer the question "Just how long has this dance been going 
on?". I usually aim to wrap it up in about 8-9 minutes, but it all depends on 
all those situational factors that people have already mentioned.

-Lenore


On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers 
 wrote:



Just polling the masses here--how long do you generally run your dances (in 
times through the dance, time take, couples going up and back, etc.)? How many 
dances do you generally manage to fit into a 3-hour contra evening? I've heard 
different wisdom from different folks and am curious to add some more data 
points!
Cheers,Maia
___
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http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net




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Re: [Callers] Recognize this dance?

[Chris Page via Callers]

Wind in the Grass by Tom Calwell.

-Chris Page
San Diego

On Monday, April 27, 2015, Tepfer, Seth via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Anyone know title/author of this dance?
> Formation: Becket
>
> A1 - Face old neighbors across set. Women walk forward to a wavy line,
> while men walk backward to a long wavy line with men in next set. Balance
> the waves.
> Allemande right 1 1/4 with person in your right hand. If no one in your
> right hand, stay where you are.
> A2 - Hey on right diagonal(neighbor pass left)
> B1 - Neighbor balance and swing
> B2 - Circle left 3/4, partner swing.
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net 
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

[Callers] Recognize this dance?

[Tepfer, Seth via Callers]

Anyone know title/author of this dance? 
Formation: Becket

A1 - Face old neighbors across set. Women walk forward to a wavy line, while 
men walk backward to a long wavy line with men in next set. Balance the waves. 
Allemande right 1 1/4 with person in your right hand. If no one in your right 
hand, stay where you are.
A2 - Hey on right diagonal(neighbor pass left)
B1 - Neighbor balance and swing
B2 - Circle left 3/4, partner swing.

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

As a dancer, I have found a lot of callers aim for 4 per hour, and this
feels way too long for several reasons:
- Especially in warm weather, dancers get tired
- Musicians get tired, too.
- People involuntarily sitting out have to suffer through a longer out time.
With dances more like the 8-9 minute range, I've find dancers are more
likely to dance more, less likely to leave at the break, and are generally
giving better energy to the band

That said, I'd caution against any method that places consistency above
feeling out the audience. Factors that might affect dance length:
- temperature
- timing to end of a break / evening considering any unexpected changes
(long walkthrough, slow hands 4, etc)
- dance difficulty was mis-gauged, thus a desire to move to a new dance
rather than watch dancers struggle too long
- band and dancers are in a groove that you may just want to hang onto a
bit more (when my dancers are starting to hoot, perhaps it's not the best
time to signal 3 more...)

Ron Blechner

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Woody Lane via Callers]

Generally, I expect to call 9-12 dances in a regular evening 
contra/community dance venue. With 10-11 being the greatest majority of 
the gigs.


I usually prepare a program with 10-11 dances, but of course once the 
evening begins, things can change, sometimes quite radically.


The length of each dance -- really depends on the choreography of that 
dance and the crowd and the music and the time of night (and a few other 
judgements as well). The first and second dances can be slightly longer 
than normal to reinforce the moves and help get newcomers adjusted to 
the progression and responding to the calls. Or they can be shorter than 
normal to accommodate the flow of new folks as they walk into the hall.


And then there is the music, which I consider greatly as part of my 
judgements. If a band is in a groove, I'll want to continue their flow 
and thus continue the dance for a couple of extra times. Also, the 
common use of three tunes (rather than two or one) for a dance makes it 
a real judgement call, since sometimes a band may play the first tune 
longer than normal, so my choice is to cut off the third tune earlier 
than the band may like or allow the dance to go a bit longer. Of course, 
that also depends on a lot, including the actually tune being played and 
what the band is doing with it and the nature of the dancers. 
Conversely, if an old-time band plays one tune for each dance, I'll 
usually make those dances a bit shorter, especially for a firm contra 
crowd where the dancers may get bored with one tune that has no changes 
in texture or modulation.


Woody


On 4/26/2015 9:31 PM, Jack Mitchell via Callers wrote:
For me, it really depends on the size and energy level of the dance. 
 For a larger dance with lots of energy, I will run around 15 min per 
slot...so 3-4 minutes to get a new partner, 3-4 min to walk thru and 8 
or so minutes to dance (around 16 times through the tune).  Square and 
mixers run shorter frequently, doing a square and a mixer means that I 
get an extra dance in overall.


Smaller dances, or dances where some of the dancers have problems with 
stamena,  I tend to run shorter -- frequently more like 10 minute 
slots.  Have gotten 10-12 dances in a 2.5 hr (including break) dance. 
 Have a friend who called 14 dances in a 2 hour dance because the band 
was an old time band and was just playing one tune per dance, the same 
way every time through, so she just ran all the dances much shorter.


My goal is generally to get people down the hall and partway back 
during the dance for a single progression dance.  YMMV


Jack Mitchell


On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 5:54 PM -0700, "Maia McCormick via Callers" 
> wrote:


Just polling the masses here--how long do you generally run your
dances (in times through the dance, time take, couples going up
and back, etc.)? How many dances do you generally manage to fit
into a 3-hour contra evening? I've heard different wisdom from
different folks and am curious to add some more data points!

Cheers,
Maia

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Perry Shafran via Callers]

I usually do things basically by feel, and I also pay particular attention to 
tune changes and give the band enough time to play the 3rd tune enough times.  
I don't have any "rules of thumb", like watching a particular couple go up the 
line and back, or any specific time length or number of times through, because 
that gives me too much to keep track of.  
Weather is also an important factor, especially in halls with no temperature 
controls (like Glen Echo or Baltimore's Lovely Lane).  In wintertime I might 
run the dances a bit longer to minimize time not dancing so people don't start 
to get cold.  In the summer, I might run them shorter because with all the 
sweating and water loss I don't want people to get exhausted.  

The number of dances in a particular evening also is determined by a number of 
factors.  For evenings where there are a lot of beginners and I have to take 
some time for walk throughs, I generally can fit in 10 to 11 dances in an 
evening.  For those where there are more experienced dancers, walk throughs are 
shorter, or I can do more no walkthrough dances, and I can get up to 12 dances 
or even more in an evening.  One evening I was in a particularly nice groove 
with a hall full of good experienced dancers, and I got in 14 dances that 
evening.  I think the average is about 4 dances per hour (15 minutes per dance, 
including walk through time and between-dance time all combined with dancing 
time).
Perry

  From: Maia McCormick via Callers 
 To: "callers@lists.sharedweight.net"  
 Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:54 PM
 Subject: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening
   
Just polling the masses here--how long do you generally run your dances (in 
times through the dance, time take, couples going up and back, etc.)? How many 
dances do you generally manage to fit into a 3-hour contra evening? I've heard 
different wisdom from different folks and am curious to add some more data 
points!
Cheers,Maia
___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Ann Fallon via Callers]

Very interesting discussion.  

 

One thing I try to pay attention to is the music and whether the band will be 
playing two-tune or three-tune medleys.  If I think the dance will not run for 
a long time (short hall, time running out, etc.) I’ll let the band know so they 
can make their changes sooner rather than later.  I always feel badly if I have 
to cut the dance short and the band hasn’t gotten a chance to play the last 
tune at least four times through.  If I have to make an “emergency” stop I 
always try to apologize to the band for cutting them short.  If I lose track of 
the changes I’ll ask where they are.  

 

Ann Fallon

Annapolis, Maryland

From: Callers [mailto:callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Ryan 
Smith via Callers
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 10:25 AM
Cc: callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

 

"If you decide on a number of times through and actually count, you can stick 
to that pretty well, but if you decide a running time, it is much more 
difficult to stay on track of the time and warn the band three times before you 
want to end, etc."

 

I couldn't disagree more.  I have always used a stopwatch to keep track of how 
long I'm running the dance, and since one time through the dance is close 
enough to 30 seconds as to make it not matter, I signal the band 3 more times 
at whichever B2 is closest to one and a half minutes (usually 6.5 minutes since 
we started) from my target time (usually 8 minutes).  I don't count times 
through or use marker couples or anything like that because I don't need the 
distractions.  If I were counting, I would definitely have a moment where some 
couple needed my help and I'd be figuring out what calls would best put them 
back on the right track and forget whether I was on 5 or 7, and then I'd 
probably end up running the dance too long thinking I was on 16 times through, 
when it was really 20.

 

If counting works for you, that's great.  For people like me, having a target 
length is much simpler.

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Ryan Smith via Callers]

"If you decide on a number of times through and actually count, you can
stick to that pretty well, but if you decide a running time, it is much
more difficult to stay on track of the time and warn the band three times
before you want to end, etc."

I couldn't disagree more.  I have always used a stopwatch to keep track of
how long I'm running the dance, and since one time through the dance is
close enough to 30 seconds as to make it not matter, I signal the band 3
more times at whichever B2 is closest to one and a half minutes (usually
6.5 minutes since we started) from my target time (usually 8 minutes).  I
don't count times through or use marker couples or anything like that
because I don't need the distractions.  If I were counting, I would
definitely have a moment where some couple needed my help and I'd be
figuring out what calls would best put them back on the right track and
forget whether I was on 5 or 7, and then I'd probably end up running the
dance too long thinking I was on 16 times through, when it was really 20.

If counting works for you, that's great.  For people like me, having a
target length is much simpler.

Re: [Callers] Dance length/dances per evening

[Dave Casserly via Callers]

When I was learning to call, I was taught to do about 15 times through the
dance (maybe 13, maybe 17).  I like Victor's suggestion of 8 minutes for
the dance, 2 for walkthrough, and 2 for dancers to line up and chat before
the walkthrough starts.  Including break and waltzes, in a three hour
dance, you should easily fit 12 dances in with that in mind.  At my local
3-hour dance, we do a 15-minute break, and each waltz lasts 5 minutes (if
that).  That leaves 155 minutes for a caller to run her dance, and that's
plenty of time if you actually run the dances for 8 minutes (you've got 11
minutes to spare using Victor's calculations, which is enough time for
unexpected things like longer walkthroughs, a hambo after the break, etc).

In my experience as a dancer, though, callers wildly underestimate how long
they are running the dances (and walkthroughs).  We rarely get 12 dances in
a night at my local venue; usually 10 or 11.  This could be because I
usually dance in a very long hall, where it is not possible to call dances
such that dancers go all the way through the line then halfway back (as
Jack suggests) without running dances very, very long.  But I also think
there's a bias in callers toward thinking they have run a dance shorter
than they actually have.  I have very rarely thought a dance ended
prematurely, but I often find that dances run long and get boring,
especially after 20 or more times through (which is frequent at my venue,
though when I talk to them, callers generally don't realize that they've
run dances through that many times).

My advice is, don't pick a time to run the dances.  Pick a number of times
through, and do not vary that number significantly based on the size of the
hall.  Running a dance through 17 times at a bigger hall is fine, but
running it through such that every dancer dances with each couple in the
set is ridiculous when you're in a hall (like my local hall) that can fit
30 or 40 couples in a line (not exaggerating, I've seen it there).  If you
decide on a number of times through and actually count, you can stick to
that pretty well, but if you decide a running time, it is much more
difficult to stay on track of the time and warn the band three times before
you want to end, etc.

-Dave


>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Maia McCormick via Callers
>  wrote:
> > Just polling the masses here--how long do you generally run your dances
> (in
> > times through the dance, time take, couples going up and back, etc.)? How
> > many dances do you generally manage to fit into a 3-hour contra evening?
> > I've heard different wisdom from different folks and am curious to add
> some
> > more data points!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Maia
> >
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>



-- 
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761