Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Lisa Welch
I find it counter-intuitive that a large, motorized, polluting, loud, deadly 
vehicle is preferable to a human being on foot, or on a bicycle.  Perhaps it's 
people AND cars that scares the birds.  :-) 


On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:47 PM, Bard Prentiss prenti...@frontiernet.net 
wrote:
  


I don't remember anyone addressing this long standing annoyance in the manner I 
mention below and I think its worth a try:
Perhaps the bird clubs in the region could each submit thoughtful  petitions to 
the director of mnwr requesting a policy change. If Chris didn't mind one might 
also originate with this list serve. It would be difficult for a public servant 
to ignore several hundred signatures behind a group of thoughtfully worded 
letters and It should at least generate a response and get a dialogue going.
Bird Hard Bard

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:08 PM, John VanNiel john.vann...@flcc.edu wrote:
 
 Meena, this is exactly the kind f discussion I was hoping to instigate. I am 
 not against a change in policy, but I am for enforcement of policies.
 Dr. John Van Niel
 Professor of Environmental Conservation
 Director, East Hill Campus
 Finger Lakes Community College
 
 From: Meena Madhav Haribal [m...@cornell.edu]
 Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 5:59 PM
 To: John VanNiel
 Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the 
 Wildlife Drive :(
 
 Hi John and all,
 My question to you is were the birds disturbed by so many people being out. I 
 have been to MNWR for more than 20 years. When I started birding MNWR there 
 was no restriction of being in the car. We could walk around on the drive.
 I have been to many NWR refuges, nowhere there was restrictions as to be in 
 car. I have seen shorebirds and other birds from as close as few feet from 
 me. Birds get used to human beings if we are not shooting them or harassing 
 them. So why there is so much fuss about disturbing the non_existing birds on 
 the wildlife drive.
 I am for the one who believe in opening the drive to foot traffic.
 I agree if someone is harassing the birds they should be stopped. If someone 
 is digiscoping that means birds were  far anyway, so why complain about them?
 
 I vote for wildlife drive should be open for foot traffic!
 
 Cheers
 Meena
 
 John VanNiel john.vann...@flcc.edu wrote:
 
 
 Many Caspian Terns along the Wildlife Drive at Montezuma this afternoon. I 
 very much enjoyed trying to photograph them in flight. (Now the rant..) What 
 I did NOT enjoy were all the people out of their vehicles. Every single 
 person in the five cars ahead of me were out of the vehicles. A young couple 
 were digiscoping with a nice spotting scope on a tripod. Another woman with a 
 large telephoto lens was parked in the middle of the drive and was excitedly 
 taking photos. Two elderly women were down at the edge of the water snapping 
 pictures of the mallows in bloom. I could go on  I moved to Seneca Falls 
 19 years ago and have been a regular visitor since. I cannot recall a year 
 when the foot traffic was as bad as I have seen it this year. There are two 
 signs that instruct visitors to stay in their vehicles that drivers pass 
 before entering the drive and a third reminder after the big left turn before 
 Benning Marsh. However, I can understand how visitors
 would miss seeing them. I think this is a problem that needs a solution. I 
would like to speak to the Refuge staff formally about it.  If anyone would 
like to join me or have me relay his or her thoughts, please contact me 
offline. Thank you for your time.
 Dr. John Van Niel
 Professor of Environmental Conservation
 Director, East Hill Campus
 Finger Lakes Community College
 
 
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 Please submit your observations to eBird:
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RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Marie P. Read
large, motorized, polluting, loud, deadly vehicle is preferable to a human 
being on foot, or on a bicycle.

Well, most of the vehicles cruising the wildlife drive are going extremely 
slowly because people are trying to see the wildlife, so they're not really 
loud and deadly (when they're going 60 mph on the highway, of course they ARE). 
They certainly are large, motorized and polluting. But from a bird's point of 
view, usually once the birds have got used to vehicles they tend to ignore 
them…simply because vehicles don't look like people! The same reason birds 
eventually ignore a photo blind, even if it's a large canvas box! Step outside 
and they're gone! 

People on foot and on bikes would absolutely be more disruptive…especially from 
a photographer's point of view. Given that people on foot (especially 
photographers like myself) would always want to be closer, I can imagine how 
they might approach the cattail edge closer than is now possible by car. I know 
I would be tempted. That would certainly push away birds such as the gallinules 
that were right along that edge with their chicks last week. And that spoils it 
all for the people coming up behind you. Last week from my vehicle I was able 
to get amazing close-ups of them feeding their young. So, somewhat to my 
surprise (given how many times in the past decades I have cursed MNWR's in 
your vehicle restriction) I find myself wanting to keep the restriction…in my 
opinion removing it would ruin MNWR's wildlife drive for bird photography. 

But someone did suggest another option: a few more spots around the refuge 
(especially along the drive) where you can get out. Halfway along the channel 
on the wildlife drive would, in my opinion, be ideal for one of those spots. 
Maybe a nice wooden deck out over the water? (I know….$$$ !) Any birds residing 
in the vicinity would likely become used to seeing people there and eventually 
ignore them. Of course, how to contain the parking and corral the people so 
they don't simply wander up and down the drive on either side of the deck would 
be perennial problems. 


Marie





Marie Read Wildlife Photography
452 Ringwood Road
Freeville NY  13068 USA

Phone  607-539-6608
e-mail   m...@cornell.edu

http://www.marieread.com

Author of Sierra Wings: Birds of the Mono Lake BasinAvailable here:

http://marieread.photoshelter.com/gallery/Sierra-Wings-Birds-of-the-Mono-Lake-Basin/GNlCxX37uTzE/CBPFGij6nLfE

From: bounce-117686157-5851...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-117686157-5851...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Lisa Welch 
[welch_m_l...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2014 9:26 AM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the Wildlife 
Drive :(

I find it counter-intuitive that a large, motorized, polluting, loud, deadly 
vehicle is preferable to a human being on foot, or on a bicycle.  Perhaps it's 
people AND cars that scares the birds.  :-)


On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:47 PM, Bard Prentiss prenti...@frontiernet.net 
wrote:


I don't remember anyone addressing this long standing annoyance in the manner I 
mention below and I think its worth a try:
Perhaps the bird clubs in the region could each submit thoughtful  petitions to 
the director of mnwr requesting a policy change. If Chris didn't mind one might 
also originate with this list serve. It would be difficult for a public servant 
to ignore several hundred signatures behind a group of thoughtfully worded 
letters and It should at least generate a response and get a dialogue going.
Bird Hard Bard

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:08 PM, John VanNiel 
 john.vann...@flcc.edumailto:john.vann...@flcc.edu wrote:

 Meena, this is exactly the kind f discussion I was hoping to instigate. I am 
 not against a change in policy, but I am for enforcement of policies.
 Dr. John Van Niel
 Professor of Environmental Conservation
 Director, East Hill Campus
 Finger Lakes Community College
 
 From: Meena Madhav Haribal [m...@cornell.edumailto:m...@cornell.edu]
 Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 5:59 PM
 To: John VanNiel
 Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the 
 Wildlife Drive :(

 Hi John and all,
 My question to you is were the birds disturbed by so many people being out. I 
 have been to MNWR for more than 20 years. When I started birding MNWR there 
 was no restriction of being in the car. We could walk around on the drive.
 I have been to many NWR refuges, nowhere there was restrictions as to be in 
 car. I have seen shorebirds and other birds from as close as few feet from 
 me. Birds get used to human beings if we are not shooting them or harassing 
 them. So why there is so much fuss about disturbing the non_existing birds on 
 the wildlife drive.
 I am for the one who believe in opening the drive to foot traffic.
 I agree if someone is harassing the birds they 

Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Lisa Welch
We can always rationalize a car!  I bet we could put our collective 
imaginations and creativity together and conceive different viewing options 
that would be better for the birds and people.  This is true in general for 
human settlements as well.  However, people want to DRIVE on the same old road 
and look at birds.  It is what it is.   


On Monday, August 4, 2014 10:10 AM, Marie P. Read m...@cornell.edu wrote:
  


large, motorized, polluting, loud, deadly vehicle is preferable to a human 
being on foot, or on a bicycle.

Well, most of the vehicles cruising the wildlife drive are going extremely 
slowly because people are trying to see the wildlife, so they're not really 
loud and deadly (when they're going 60 mph on the highway, of course they ARE). 
They certainly are large, motorized and polluting. But from a bird's point of 
view, usually once the birds have got used to vehicles they tend to ignore 
them…simply because vehicles don't look like people! The same reason birds 
eventually ignore a photo blind, even if it's a large canvas box! Step outside 
and they're gone! 

People on foot and on bikes would absolutely be more disruptive…especially from 
a photographer's point of view. Given that people on foot (especially 
photographers like myself) would always want to be closer, I can imagine how 
they might approach the cattail edge closer than is now possible by car. I know 
I would be tempted. That would certainly push away birds such as the gallinules 
that were right along that edge with their chicks last week. And that spoils it 
all for the people coming up behind you. Last week from my vehicle I was able 
to get amazing close-ups of them feeding their young. So, somewhat to my 
surprise (given how many times in the past decades I have cursed MNWR's in 
your vehicle restriction) I find myself wanting to keep the restriction…in my 
opinion removing it would ruin MNWR's wildlife drive for bird photography. 

But someone did suggest another option: a few more spots around the refuge 
(especially along the drive) where you can get out. Halfway along the channel 
on the wildlife drive would, in my opinion, be ideal for one of those spots. 
Maybe a nice wooden deck out over the water? (I know….$$$ !) Any birds residing 
in the vicinity would likely become used to seeing people there and eventually 
ignore them. Of course, how to contain the parking and corral the people so 
they don't simply wander up and down the drive on either side of the deck would 
be perennial problems. 


Marie





Marie Read Wildlife Photography
452 Ringwood Road
Freeville NY  13068 USA

Phone  607-539-6608
e-mail  m...@cornell.edu

http://www.marieread.com/

Author of Sierra Wings: Birds of the Mono Lake Basin    Available here:

http://marieread.photoshelter.com/gallery/Sierra-Wings-Birds-of-the-Mono-Lake-Basin/GNlCxX37uTzE/CBPFGij6nLfE

From: bounce-117686157-5851...@list.cornell.edu 
[bounce-117686157-5851...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Lisa Welch 
[welch_m_l...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 4, 2014 9:26 AM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the Wildlife 
Drive :(

I find it counter-intuitive that a large, motorized, polluting, loud, deadly 
vehicle is preferable to a human being on foot, or on a bicycle.  Perhaps it's 
people AND cars that scares the birds.  :-)


On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:47 PM, Bard Prentiss prenti...@frontiernet.net 
wrote:


I don't remember anyone addressing this long standing annoyance in the manner I 
mention below and I think its worth a try:
Perhaps the bird clubs in the region could each submit thoughtful  petitions to 
the director of mnwr requesting a policy change. If Chris didn't mind one might 
also originate with this list serve. It would be difficult for a public servant 
to ignore several hundred signatures behind a group of thoughtfully worded 
letters and It should at least generate a response and get a dialogue going.
Bird Hard Bard

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 2, 2014, at 6:08 PM, John VanNiel 
 john.vann...@flcc.edumailto:john.vann...@flcc.edu wrote:

 Meena, this is exactly the kind f discussion I was hoping to instigate. I am 
 not against a change in policy, but I am for enforcement of policies.
 Dr. John Van Niel
 Professor of Environmental Conservation
 Director, East Hill Campus
 Finger Lakes Community College
 
 From: Meena Madhav Haribal [m...@cornell.edumailto:m...@cornell.edu]
 Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2014 5:59 PM
 To: John VanNiel
 Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] MNWR Caspian Terns and pedestrians on the 
 Wildlife Drive :(

 Hi John and all,
 My question to you is were the birds disturbed by so many people being out. I 
 have been to MNWR for more than 20 years. When I started birding MNWR there 
 was no restriction of being in the car. We could walk around on the drive.
 I have been to many NWR 

RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Kevin J. McGowan
Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true at 
Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton of 
observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own driveway.

That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups. 

Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible 
experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be used 
by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also diminishes the 
potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to get out and get a 
closer look.

I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and the 
riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as guilty (or 
more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself. But in the 
bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying nature at Montezuma 
as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there are too FEW people 
learning about nature there.  

Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife Refuge 
system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke around. I WANT 
people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe a rail).  I WANT 
people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT people to get out and 
marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald Eagle fly over their 
heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)

In my personal opinion, anything that reduces the availability of wildlife 
watching and nature exploration for the general public is a bad thing.  Of 
course safety measures should be in place to protect the wildlife and the 
habitat. But access and education should be the default. Unless you have a 
darned good reason, please don't keep me and my kids (and neighbors, and 
parents, and friends) out.

Kevin

Kevin McGowan
Ithaca, NY

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http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

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RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Meena Madhav Haribal
Hi Kevin and all, 

Great thoughts Kevin! I am with you on these points!

Also I would like enjoy other creatures too, it is a wildlife refuge not just 
for birds. I would like to see a dragonfly  or a flower or a digger wasp making 
it home for its progeny. You can't see a digger wasp from your car!  So the 
refuges are not meant for specifically birds or birders. 

Unless people enjoy the nature they will not support nature conservation. Most 
of the people who come there want to enjoy nature not just birders.

Basic thing needed is educating the public about their behavior. If a person 
stands at one location for long time enough without harassing a bird  then they 
are as effective as cars. Also everybody  is not interested in photographing a 
bird. If they see some actions by birds they are happy about it!

Having said that, I would also suggest that there could be comprises. At 
strategic locations there could be blinds or shelters. Also walks could be open 
for certain time of the day, so as to get birds a chance to do what they are 
supposed to do. For example the dykes on the Knox Marsellus could be open to 
public to walk for certain hours of the day. As it is birds are miles away.  

If we all together put in our efforts we can make solid recommendations to the 
refuge or if the refuge managers are reading e-mails they themselves can think 
of some of the alternatives.

If we want people to enjoy nature they should see them up close, a shorebird 
three miles away has not effect on a general public than a bird close at hand 
and watching its behaviors. Then only they will support conservation!

We need people to enjoy the nature and love it!

Hope we will make some changes!

Cheers
Meena



-Original Message-
From: bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:03 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true at 
Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton of 
observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own driveway.

That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups. 

Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible 
experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be used 
by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also diminishes the 
potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to get out and get a 
closer look.

I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and the 
riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as guilty (or 
more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself. But in the 
bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying nature at Montezuma 
as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there are too FEW people 
learning about nature there.  

Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife Refuge 
system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke around. I WANT 
people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe a rail).  I WANT 
people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT people to get out and 
marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald Eagle fly over their 
heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)

In my personal opinion, anything that reduces the availability of wildlife 
watching and nature exploration for the general public is a bad thing.  Of 
course safety measures should be in place to protect the wildlife and the 
habitat. But access and education should be the default. Unless you have a 
darned good reason, please don't keep me and my kids (and neighbors, and 
parents, and friends) out.

Kevin

Kevin McGowan
Ithaca, NY

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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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Please submit your observations to eBird:
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Linda Orkin
Kevin and Meena's points and passions are wonderful guiding principles on the 
ways we interact with, enjoy, and respect nature. I would love to be involved 
in some group discussions and creative recommendations. They don't say get out 
into nature...but stay in your car while doing it. 

Linda

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Meena Madhav Haribal m...@cornell.edu wrote:

 Hi Kevin and all, 
 
 Great thoughts Kevin! I am with you on these points!
 
 Also I would like enjoy other creatures too, it is a wildlife refuge not just 
 for birds. I would like to see a dragonfly  or a flower or a digger wasp 
 making it home for its progeny. You can't see a digger wasp from your car!  
 So the refuges are not meant for specifically birds or birders. 
 
 Unless people enjoy the nature they will not support nature conservation. 
 Most of the people who come there want to enjoy nature not just birders.
 
 Basic thing needed is educating the public about their behavior. If a person 
 stands at one location for long time enough without harassing a bird  then 
 they are as effective as cars. Also everybody  is not interested in 
 photographing a bird. If they see some actions by birds they are happy about 
 it!
 
 Having said that, I would also suggest that there could be comprises. At 
 strategic locations there could be blinds or shelters. Also walks could be 
 open for certain time of the day, so as to get birds a chance to do what they 
 are supposed to do. For example the dykes on the Knox Marsellus could be open 
 to public to walk for certain hours of the day. As it is birds are miles 
 away.  
 
 If we all together put in our efforts we can make solid recommendations to 
 the refuge or if the refuge managers are reading e-mails they themselves can 
 think of some of the alternatives.
 
 If we want people to enjoy nature they should see them up close, a shorebird 
 three miles away has not effect on a general public than a bird close at hand 
 and watching its behaviors. Then only they will support conservation!
 
 We need people to enjoy the nature and love it!
 
 Hope we will make some changes!
 
 Cheers
 Meena
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. 
 McGowan
 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:03 PM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(
 
 Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true at 
 Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton of 
 observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own driveway.
 
 That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups. 
 
 Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible 
 experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be 
 used by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also 
 diminishes the potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to get 
 out and get a closer look.
 
 I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and the 
 riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as guilty (or 
 more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself. But in the 
 bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying nature at 
 Montezuma as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there are too FEW 
 people learning about nature there.  
 
 Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife 
 Refuge system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke around. 
 I WANT people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe a rail).  
 I WANT people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT people to get 
 out and marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald Eagle fly over 
 their heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)
 
 In my personal opinion, anything that reduces the availability of wildlife 
 watching and nature exploration for the general public is a bad thing.  Of 
 course safety measures should be in place to protect the wildlife and the 
 habitat. But access and education should be the default. Unless you have a 
 darned good reason, please don't keep me and my kids (and neighbors, and 
 parents, and friends) out.
 
 Kevin
 
 Kevin McGowan
 Ithaca, NY
 
 --
 
 Cayugabirds-L List Info:
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm
 
 ARCHIVES:
 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html
 
 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/
 
 --
 
 
 --
 
 Cayugabirds-L List Info:
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
 

RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Meena Madhav Haribal
Sorry for the major typo- read comprises and compromises! 

-Original Message-
From: Linda Orkin [mailto:wingmagi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 1:12 PM
To: Meena Madhav Haribal
Cc: Kevin J. McGowan; CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

Kevin and Meena's points and passions are wonderful guiding principles on the 
ways we interact with, enjoy, and respect nature. I would love to be involved 
in some group discussions and creative recommendations. They don't say get out 
into nature...but stay in your car while doing it. 

Linda

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Meena Madhav Haribal m...@cornell.edu wrote:

 Hi Kevin and all, 
 
 Great thoughts Kevin! I am with you on these points!
 
 Also I would like enjoy other creatures too, it is a wildlife refuge not just 
 for birds. I would like to see a dragonfly  or a flower or a digger wasp 
 making it home for its progeny. You can't see a digger wasp from your car!  
 So the refuges are not meant for specifically birds or birders. 
 
 Unless people enjoy the nature they will not support nature conservation. 
 Most of the people who come there want to enjoy nature not just birders.
 
 Basic thing needed is educating the public about their behavior. If a person 
 stands at one location for long time enough without harassing a bird  then 
 they are as effective as cars. Also everybody  is not interested in 
 photographing a bird. If they see some actions by birds they are happy about 
 it!
 
 Having said that, I would also suggest that there could be comprises. At 
 strategic locations there could be blinds or shelters. Also walks could be 
 open for certain time of the day, so as to get birds a chance to do what they 
 are supposed to do. For example the dykes on the Knox Marsellus could be open 
 to public to walk for certain hours of the day. As it is birds are miles 
 away.  
 
 If we all together put in our efforts we can make solid recommendations to 
 the refuge or if the refuge managers are reading e-mails they themselves can 
 think of some of the alternatives.
 
 If we want people to enjoy nature they should see them up close, a shorebird 
 three miles away has not effect on a general public than a bird close at hand 
 and watching its behaviors. Then only they will support conservation!
 
 We need people to enjoy the nature and love it!
 
 Hope we will make some changes!
 
 Cheers
 Meena
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. 
 McGowan
 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:03 PM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(
 
 Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true at 
 Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton of 
 observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own driveway.
 
 That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups. 
 
 Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible 
 experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be 
 used by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also 
 diminishes the potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to get 
 out and get a closer look.
 
 I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and the 
 riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as guilty (or 
 more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself. But in the 
 bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying nature at 
 Montezuma as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there are too FEW 
 people learning about nature there.  
 
 Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife 
 Refuge system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke around. 
 I WANT people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe a rail).  
 I WANT people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT people to get 
 out and marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald Eagle fly over 
 their heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)
 
 In my personal opinion, anything that reduces the availability of wildlife 
 watching and nature exploration for the general public is a bad thing.  Of 
 course safety measures should be in place to protect the wildlife and the 
 habitat. But access and education should be the default. Unless you have a 
 darned good reason, please don't keep me and my kids (and neighbors, and 
 parents, and friends) out.
 
 Kevin
 
 Kevin McGowan
 Ithaca, NY
 
 --
 
 Cayugabirds-L List Info:
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm
 
 ARCHIVES:
 1) 

Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Steve Benedict
Kevin makes some very good points.   One complaint, often heard, is that
people drive too fast on the drive.   I expect these are folks who don't
know what to look for.  They don't see anything of interest and are bored
with endless cattails.   It would be nice if we could get them to stop, and
with a little guidance, begin to see what they have been missing.   Once a
year (Oct?), NWR day (?), volunteers  position ourselves along the drive
with scopes, and purposely flag down vehicles, to get people out to look.
Great fun to have them see something they have never seen before, and/or
didn't know was there to be seen.


On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Meena Madhav Haribal m...@cornell.edu
wrote:

 Sorry for the major typo- read comprises and compromises!

 -Original Message-
 From: Linda Orkin [mailto:wingmagi...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 1:12 PM
 To: Meena Madhav Haribal
 Cc: Kevin J. McGowan; CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

 Kevin and Meena's points and passions are wonderful guiding principles on
 the ways we interact with, enjoy, and respect nature. I would love to be
 involved in some group discussions and creative recommendations. They don't
 say get out into nature...but stay in your car while doing it.

 Linda

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Meena Madhav Haribal m...@cornell.edu
 wrote:

  Hi Kevin and all,
 
  Great thoughts Kevin! I am with you on these points!
 
  Also I would like enjoy other creatures too, it is a wildlife refuge not
 just for birds. I would like to see a dragonfly  or a flower or a digger
 wasp making it home for its progeny. You can't see a digger wasp from your
 car!  So the refuges are not meant for specifically birds or birders.
 
  Unless people enjoy the nature they will not support nature
 conservation. Most of the people who come there want to enjoy nature not
 just birders.
 
  Basic thing needed is educating the public about their behavior. If a
 person stands at one location for long time enough without harassing a bird
  then they are as effective as cars. Also everybody  is not interested in
 photographing a bird. If they see some actions by birds they are happy
 about it!
 
  Having said that, I would also suggest that there could be comprises. At
 strategic locations there could be blinds or shelters. Also walks could be
 open for certain time of the day, so as to get birds a chance to do what
 they are supposed to do. For example the dykes on the Knox Marsellus could
 be open to public to walk for certain hours of the day. As it is birds are
 miles away.
 
  If we all together put in our efforts we can make solid recommendations
 to the refuge or if the refuge managers are reading e-mails they themselves
 can think of some of the alternatives.
 
  If we want people to enjoy nature they should see them up close, a
 shorebird three miles away has not effect on a general public than a bird
 close at hand and watching its behaviors. Then only they will support
 conservation!
 
  We need people to enjoy the nature and love it!
 
  Hope we will make some changes!
 
  Cheers
  Meena
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:
 bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan
  Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:03 PM
  To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
  Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(
 
  Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true
 at Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton
 of observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own
 driveway.
 
  That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups.
 
  Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible
 experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be
 used by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also
 diminishes the potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to
 get out and get a closer look.
 
  I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and
 the riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as
 guilty (or more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself.
 But in the bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying
 nature at Montezuma as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there
 are too FEW people learning about nature there.
 
  Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife
 Refuge system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke
 around. I WANT people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe
 a rail).  I WANT people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT
 people to get out and marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald
 Eagle fly over their heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)
 
  In my personal opinion, anything 

Re: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread daven1...@yahoo.com
Kevin and Meena hit the nail on the head. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android


--

Cayugabirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

2014-08-04 Thread Meena Madhav Haribal
I am sorry, my brain and hands do not co-ordinate! My brain reads whatever it 
has to be and my hands type whatever they like!

Chimney Swifts are having gala time in front of my office window very often, I 
think the juveniles have joined the adults and 8 to 9 of them keep flying in 
circles chattering very excitedly. 

Cheers
Meena

-Original Message-
From: bounce-117687193-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-117687193-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Meena Madhav 
Haribal
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 1:15 PM
To: Linda Orkin
Cc: Kevin J. McGowan; CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

Sorry for the major typo- read comprises and compromises! 

-Original Message-
From: Linda Orkin [mailto:wingmagi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 1:12 PM
To: Meena Madhav Haribal
Cc: Kevin J. McGowan; CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(

Kevin and Meena's points and passions are wonderful guiding principles on the 
ways we interact with, enjoy, and respect nature. I would love to be involved 
in some group discussions and creative recommendations. They don't say get out 
into nature...but stay in your car while doing it. 

Linda

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Meena Madhav Haribal m...@cornell.edu wrote:

 Hi Kevin and all, 
 
 Great thoughts Kevin! I am with you on these points!
 
 Also I would like enjoy other creatures too, it is a wildlife refuge not just 
 for birds. I would like to see a dragonfly  or a flower or a digger wasp 
 making it home for its progeny. You can't see a digger wasp from your car!  
 So the refuges are not meant for specifically birds or birders. 
 
 Unless people enjoy the nature they will not support nature conservation. 
 Most of the people who come there want to enjoy nature not just birders.
 
 Basic thing needed is educating the public about their behavior. If a person 
 stands at one location for long time enough without harassing a bird  then 
 they are as effective as cars. Also everybody  is not interested in 
 photographing a bird. If they see some actions by birds they are happy about 
 it!
 
 Having said that, I would also suggest that there could be comprises. At 
 strategic locations there could be blinds or shelters. Also walks could be 
 open for certain time of the day, so as to get birds a chance to do what they 
 are supposed to do. For example the dykes on the Knox Marsellus could be open 
 to public to walk for certain hours of the day. As it is birds are miles 
 away.  
 
 If we all together put in our efforts we can make solid recommendations to 
 the refuge or if the refuge managers are reading e-mails they themselves can 
 think of some of the alternatives.
 
 If we want people to enjoy nature they should see them up close, a shorebird 
 three miles away has not effect on a general public than a bird close at hand 
 and watching its behaviors. Then only they will support conservation!
 
 We need people to enjoy the nature and love it!
 
 Hope we will make some changes!
 
 Cheers
 Meena
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-117686987-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. 
 McGowan
 Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:03 PM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] ...pedestrians on the Wildlife Drive :(
 
 Of course birds let you get closer when you're in a car. That's as true at 
 Stewart Park and along any back road as it is in Montezuma. I do a ton of 
 observation and photography from my car, sometimes even in my own driveway.
 
 That's great for one person, but it stinks for groups. 
 
 Having to remain in a car on the wildlife drive diminishes the possible 
 experience of any group, especially a group with a scope, which cannot be 
 used by multiple people (the best teaching tool for groups). It also 
 diminishes the potential experience for kids and anyone who would like to get 
 out and get a closer look.
 
 I'm hearing a lot of 1%-er talk, I want to optimize my experience, and the 
 riff-raff should just stay away (or stay in their cars). I am as guilty (or 
 more) as anyone of wanting to have the entire refuge to myself. But in the 
 bigger picture, I don't see having too many people enjoying nature at 
 Montezuma as the problem.  I think it's quite the opposite: there are too FEW 
 people learning about nature there.  
 
 Those of us interested in nature and supportive of the National Wildlife 
 Refuge system should want EVERYONE to get out of their cars and poke around. 
 I WANT people to peer through the reeds and see a turtle (or maybe a rail).  
 I WANT people to stop and take pictures of the flowers.  I WANT people to get 
 out and marvel at a muskrat mound, and then have a young Bald Eagle fly over 
 their heads. (It's hard to look up from a back seat.)
 
 In my personal opinion, anything that reduces the availability of wildlife