Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Geo Kloppel
The full answer about the reluctance of Cayuga and especially Seneca to 
completely freeze over is a bit complicated, but a primer on the physical 
limnology can be read here:

http://www.gflrpc.org/Publications/SenecaLakeWMP/chap6a.pdf

-Geo Kloppel

On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley ls...@cornell.edu wrote:

 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of their 
 surface area frozen.  
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog
 http://bit.ly/1gcubdX
 
 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so maybe 
 they go there.
 
 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not sure 
 why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper than the Great 
 Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me, so let me know if you 
 have a good answer!)
 -Liisa
 
 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread John Confer
Historically, Lake Superior did freeze over entirely. The current open 
water during winter allows for much greater evaporation that would occur 
if the ice cover were 100%. One of the major contributors to the drop in 
the level of the Great Lakes is the additional winter evaporation 
associated with the reduction/absence of ice cover.
Lakes Seneca and Cayuga are oriented somewhat in the direction of 
prevailing storms. In winter the temperature of both lakes is within 
0.1C top to bottom as a consequence of mixing of water from top to 
bottom related to prevailing winds. For both lakes to freeze at the top 
for the entire length, it would be necessary for the entire water column 
to loose enough heat to be very close to 0C. As long as the power plant 
continues to release a great deal of heat to the surface, Cayuga Lake 
will never freeze 100%, even without any effect of global climate change.
The concentration of redheads in Cayuga Lake is a consequence of keeping 
some shallow areas open due to water movement from the deeper areas that 
don't freeze. Other, shallow lakes in this area do freeze over 100% so 
that there is no way that diving ducks can get food.
(PS: This may seem odd coming from a birder, but my grad work was in 
limnology with half the research since grad school was on lakes.)

John Confer

On 2/9/2014 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley wrote:
 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of their 
 surface area frozen.
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog
 http://bit.ly/1gcubdX
 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so maybe 
 they go there.

 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not sure 
 why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper than the Great 
 Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me, so let me know if you 
 have a good answer!)
 -Liisa

 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone


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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Linda Post Van Buskirk
As of noon today, Cayuga was pretty much frozen from Chris's hill north.  
Chris's hill is the big rise north of Levanna, if one doesn't know local names. 
 South of that, the lake was a combination of frozen patches and open patches.  
This is the most ice I've seen since 1994, and then it didn't last, since 1994 
was windy, though it was also cold.

-Original Message-
From: bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Geo Kloppel
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 8:29 AM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

The full answer about the reluctance of Cayuga and especially Seneca to 
completely freeze over is a bit complicated, but a primer on the physical 
limnology can be read here:

http://www.gflrpc.org/Publications/SenecaLakeWMP/chap6a.pdf

-Geo Kloppel

On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley ls...@cornell.edu wrote:

 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of their 
 surface area frozen.  
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog http://bit.ly/1gcubdX
 
 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so maybe 
 they go there.
 
 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not 
 sure why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper 
 than the Great Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me, 
 so let me know if you have a good answer!) -Liisa
 
 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 --
 
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 Please submit your observations to eBird:
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Ann Mitchell
My understanding is that the lake completely froze over was 1912. If someone 
has a different date, that would be great! Ann

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 9, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Linda Post Van Buskirk l...@cornell.edu wrote:
 
 As of noon today, Cayuga was pretty much frozen from Chris's hill north.  
 Chris's hill is the big rise north of Levanna, if one doesn't know local 
 names.  South of that, the lake was a combination of frozen patches and open 
 patches.  This is the most ice I've seen since 1994, and then it didn't last, 
 since 1994 was windy, though it was also cold.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Geo Kloppel
 Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 8:29 AM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over
 
 The full answer about the reluctance of Cayuga and especially Seneca to 
 completely freeze over is a bit complicated, but a primer on the physical 
 limnology can be read here:
 
 http://www.gflrpc.org/Publications/SenecaLakeWMP/chap6a.pdf
 
 -Geo Kloppel
 
 On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley ls...@cornell.edu wrote:
 
 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of 
 their surface area frozen.  
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog http://bit.ly/1gcubdX
 
 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so maybe 
 they go there.
 
 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not 
 sure why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper 
 than the Great Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me, 
 so let me know if you have a good answer!) -Liisa
 
 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 --
 
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 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
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 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html
 
 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/
 
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Carl Steckler
With both Miliken Station ( or what ever it is called now) and the 
Cornell lake source cooling adding warm water it almost impossible for 
the lake to completely freeze over, there will always be some open 
water. It really is just a matter of how much. Also for the record, 
having lived in the area except from 1966- 1972, since 1948 and  I have 
never seen the lake completely freeez over even in the mid 1980s when we 
had -20 weather for two weeks.


Besides, were supposed to be having Global Warming aren't we? :?)
Carl Steckler

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Geo Kloppel
My grandmother's photo album contains some photos of the famous 1912 Seneca 
Lake freeze-over. Hasn't happened again since then.

-Geo Kloppel

On Feb 9, 2014, at 3:33 PM, Ann Mitchell annmitchel...@gmail.com wrote:

 My understanding is that the lake completely froze over was 1912. If someone 
 has a different date, that would be great! Ann
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Feb 9, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Linda Post Van Buskirk l...@cornell.edu wrote:
 
 As of noon today, Cayuga was pretty much frozen from Chris's hill north.  
 Chris's hill is the big rise north of Levanna, if one doesn't know local 
 names.  South of that, the lake was a combination of frozen patches and open 
 patches.  This is the most ice I've seen since 1994, and then it didn't 
 last, since 1994 was windy, though it was also cold.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Geo Kloppel
 Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 8:29 AM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over
 
 The full answer about the reluctance of Cayuga and especially Seneca to 
 completely freeze over is a bit complicated, but a primer on the physical 
 limnology can be read here:
 
 http://www.gflrpc.org/Publications/SenecaLakeWMP/chap6a.pdf
 
 -Geo Kloppel
 
 On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley ls...@cornell.edu wrote:
 
 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of 
 their surface area frozen.  
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog http://bit.ly/1gcubdX
 
 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so 
 maybe they go there.
 
 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not 
 sure why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper 
 than the Great Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me, 
 so let me know if you have a good answer!) -Liisa
 
 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 --
 
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 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
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 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html
 
 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/
 
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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Kevin J. McGowan
Yeah, global warming is happening alright, you just have to look around.  
According to the arctic weather web site
http://www.athropolis.com/temperature/coldreport2.php
due north of us in Nunavut is cold, but Barrow, Alaska has been consistently 
warmer than Ithaca for weeks, and is currently ten degrees F above us.  
Hammerfest, Norway and Murmansk, Russia are warmer than we are, and Tiski and 
Pevek, Russia on the Arctic Ocean in Siberia are over 54 degrees F!!!  Siberia 
in the 50s in February?  That's just wrong.

Kevin



-Original Message-
From: bounce-112540398-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-112540398-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Carl Steckler
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 4:14 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

With both Miliken Station ( or what ever it is called now) and the Cornell lake 
source cooling adding warm water it almost impossible for the lake to 
completely freeze over, there will always be some open water. It really is just 
a matter of how much. Also for the record, having lived in the area except from 
1966- 1972, since 1948 and  I have never seen the lake completely freeez over 
even in the mid 1980s when we had -20 weather for two weeks.

Besides, were supposed to be having Global Warming aren't we? :?) Carl 
Steckler

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

2014-02-09 Thread Liisa S. Mobley
Hi everyone
Thank you for all of the stimulating
and informative answers!
Ice is interesting.  My favorite ice image this year was the snowy owl at 
Stewart Park gently bobbing up and down on a small chunk of ice at dusk.
-Liisa

Liisa Mobley

On Feb 9, 2014 6:30 PM, Tom atvaw...@gmail.com wrote:
Linda,

Didn't the Lake actually freeze from shore to shore @ Aurora in '78-'79 when 
Sissy Farenthold declared it so  cancelled Wells classes?

And Ms Mobley,
A short answer to why Seneca  Cayuga don't freeze easily is that they are 
examples of the surface area to volume problem.  Although their absolute 
depth isn't as great as the Great Lakes, their shape means their surface area 
is small compared to their depth and volume.  Since heat is lost thru the 
surface, they don't cool as fast as lakes w/ larger relative surfaces areas.  
In addition, they both lie in a general NW-SE orientation, with a long fetch 
to the prevailing NW winds, which keep the water stirred up.  When they do  
freeze, it's most likely after a series of very clear, very calm nights, when 
cold water (4 C) can accumulate and freeze on the surface.  Once there's 
enough ice to resist break-up when winds resume, the lake will remain frozen 
with ice and 0 C water at the top and 4 C water all the way to the bottom.

Physical limnology is very cool!

Tom Vawter


Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 9, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Linda Post Van Buskirk l...@cornell.edu wrote:

 As of noon today, Cayuga was pretty much frozen from Chris's hill north.  
 Chris's hill is the big rise north of Levanna, if one doesn't know local 
 names.  South of that, the lake was a combination of frozen patches and open 
 patches.  This is the most ice I've seen since 1994, and then it didn't last, 
 since 1994 was windy, though it was also cold.

 -Original Message-
 From: bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-112539549-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Geo Kloppel
 Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 8:29 AM
 To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
 Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Article about great lakes freezing over

 The full answer about the reluctance of Cayuga and especially Seneca to 
 completely freeze over is a bit complicated, but a primer on the physical 
 limnology can be read here:

 http://www.gflrpc.org/Publications/SenecaLakeWMP/chap6a.pdf

 -Geo Kloppel

 On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Liisa S. Mobley ls...@cornell.edu wrote:

 There's been a bit of discussion about the Finger Lakes freezing over, as 
 well as the Great Lakes, on the Cayuga Birds list in recent weeks.  I came 
 across this article from one of the channel 9 (Syracuse) weathermen, which 
 indicates that the Great Lakes, as of last Friday, had more than 79% of 
 their surface area frozen.
 Great Lakes Freezing Over: Dave Eichorn's Blog http://bit.ly/1gcubdX

 Where do all the birds go?  Lake Ontario is only about half frozen, so maybe 
 they go there.

 You'll notice in the photo that Cayuga and Seneca are not frozen.  Not
 sure why they don't freeze over, too.  And, no, they are not deeper
 than the Great Lakes, except for Erie.  (This is kind of bugging me,
 so let me know if you have a good answer!) -Liisa

 Liisa Mobley
 Sent from my iPhone


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 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html

 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

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 Cayugabirds-L List Info:
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

 ARCHIVES:
 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html

 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

 --


 --

 Cayugabirds-L List Info:
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
 http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

 ARCHIVES:
 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds
 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html

 Please submit your observations to eBird:
 http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

 --


--

Cayugabirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com