Re: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID
Chris Wood's eBird post from his first sighting contains notes that describe the field marks distinguishing the grebe from a Clark's Grebe: http://ebird.org/ebird/view/checklist?subID=S9554251 Anne Marie Johnson On 2/4/2012 9:08 PM, david nicosia wrote: I got a comment on my flickr account saying that the western grebe photos I posted look more like a clark's grebe. This forced me to do a little research on this as I have never been out west to have to learn to distinguish between these two similar species. The white lore would suggest a clark'sgrebe in non-breeding plumage but I have read in several field guides and on-line that western grebes in non-breeding can show this too. The bill on the bird I saw today was definitively olive-yellow and I had good lighting. Is this the main field mark that is making this a Western Grebe to everyone? Has anyone considered this could be a clark's grebe? Just curious to what other's thought process was on this. Thanks. Dave Nicosia -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! --
Re: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID
Here is the link to the photos I took of the Western Grebe...they are all digi-scoped images. http://www.flickr.com/photos/davenicosia/sets/72157629174516367/ Dave Nicosia From: Meena Haribal m...@cornell.edu To: david nicosia daven1...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 7:21 AM Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Dave, After seeing your pics, you seem to have been much closer than I am, the bill looks yellowish and pointed. Plus average more grayish white flanks on the back too. I would also tend to call it Clark's Grebe. And I think you are the only one who got such detailed pictures. Here is Chris's link. Where you dont see much detail at all. http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinicola/6673387385/in/photostream/ So it would be interesting see what people would call it after your pics. You dont seem to have given link to your pics. Meena Meena Haribal Ithaca NY 14850 http://haribal.org/ http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/ From: bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of david nicosia [daven1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 9:08 PM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID I got a comment on my flickr account saying that the western grebe photos I posted look more like a clark's grebe. This forced me to do a little research on this as I have never been out west to have to learn to distinguish between these two similar species. The white lore would suggest a clark's grebe in non-breeding plumage but I have read in several field guides and on-line that western grebes in non-breeding can show this too. The bill on the bird I saw today was definitively olive-yellow and I had good lighting. Is this the main field mark that is making this a Western Grebe to everyone? Has anyone considered this could be a clark's grebe? Just curious to what other's thought process was on this. Thanks. Dave Nicosia -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID
Hi Dave, Nice shots. I'm sending a link to the ones I took on Fri., the 3rd, which show the view of the hind neck. I struggled with the separation of Western / Clark's because I don't have experience with either bird. I didn't doubt the great birders that found and ID'd this guy as Western, but took the opportunity to refine my eye. The field guides like Sibley's / Crossley's etc. leave some ambiguity with these guys. What I wondered about was light lores and the lighter shading of the flanks with a plain demarkation which seems to fall more in line with the Clark's illustrations. The light lores can show in both I gather and the bill is definitely more to the olive-yellow end than bright yellow at least in the light that I had, which wasn't bad. The hind neck black stripe is broad as you can see in my photo and the illustrations of Clark's narrower stripe would seem to be distinctive enough to catch my eye. I didn't get any shots of a spread wing. What ultimately makes me confident is that I heard this guy vocalizing several times. Listening to Lang's recording of both species I have no doubt I was hearing a Western Grebe. Clarks Grebe has more of a clear whistle quality than the vibrato that reached my ear. This is a great bird and learning experience. I was excited to finally get look after several trips into the wind and waves. Happy birding, Gary https://picasaweb.google.com/103826758925032410864/WesternGrebe?authuser=0authkey=Gv1sRgCObEttC66ZHZjAEfeat=directlink On Feb 5, 2012, at 9:13 AM, david nicosia wrote: Here is the link to the photos I took of the Western Grebe...they are all digi-scoped images. http://www.flickr.com/photos/davenicosia/sets/72157629174516367/ Dave Nicosia From: Meena Haribal m...@cornell.edumailto:m...@cornell.edu To: david nicosia daven1...@yahoo.commailto:daven1...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 7:21 AM Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Dave, After seeing your pics, you seem to have been much closer than I am, the bill looks yellowish and pointed. Plus average more grayish white flanks on the back too. I would also tend to call it Clark's Grebe. And I think you are the only one who got such detailed pictures. Here is Chris's link. Where you dont see much detail at all. http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinicola/6673387385/in/photostream/ So it would be interesting see what people would call it after your pics. You dont seem to have given link to your pics. Meena Meena Haribal Ithaca NY 14850 http://haribal.org/ http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/ From: bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of david nicosia [daven1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 9:08 PM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID I got a comment on my flickr account saying that the western grebe photos I posted look more like a clark's grebe. This forced me to do a little research on this as I have never been out west to have to learn to distinguish between these two similar species. The white lore would suggest a clark's grebe in non-breeding plumage but I have read in several field guides and on-line that western grebes in non-breeding can show this too. The bill on the bird I saw today was definitively olive-yellow and I had good lighting. Is this the main field mark that is making this a Western Grebe to everyone? Has anyone considered this could be a clark's grebe? Just curious to what other's thought process was on this. Thanks. Dave Nicosia -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basicshttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME Rules and Informationhttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm Archives: The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirdshttp://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds BirdingOnThe.Nethttp://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html Please submit your observations to eBirdhttp://ebird.org/content/ebird/! -- -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basicshttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME Rules and Informationhttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm Archives: The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/cayugabirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirdshttp://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/Cayugabirds BirdingOnThe.Nethttp://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/CAYU.html Please submit your observations to eBirdhttp://ebird.org/content/ebird/! -- -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES http
RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID
Great shots, guys! Wow, you sure saw it better than I did. It's an interesting question about species ID. I don't have enough experience with the species pair to be overly confident, but I'd have to come down on the side of Western here, or perhaps a hybrid. The face appears paler than a typical winter Western Grebe, but the eye is not close to showing out of the dark the way a Clark's should. The flanks are pale, but they do not ever appear as having white in them the way Clark's do. The bill is olive-yellow, not clear yellow, and there is an obvious dark bottom edge that is typical of Western. Gary's shot of the back of the neck is pretty convincingly wide and dark. Great bird. Let's keep the photos coming. Kevin From: bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Kohlenberg Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:18 AM To: david nicosia Cc: Meena Haribal; CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Hi Dave, Nice shots. I'm sending a link to the ones I took on Fri., the 3rd, which show the view of the hind neck. I struggled with the separation of Western / Clark's because I don't have experience with either bird. I didn't doubt the great birders that found and ID'd this guy as Western, but took the opportunity to refine my eye. The field guides like Sibley's / Crossley's etc. leave some ambiguity with these guys. What I wondered about was light lores and the lighter shading of the flanks with a plain demarkation which seems to fall more in line with the Clark's illustrations. The light lores can show in both I gather and the bill is definitely more to the olive-yellow end than bright yellow at least in the light that I had, which wasn't bad. The hind neck black stripe is broad as you can see in my photo and the illustrations of Clark's narrower stripe would seem to be distinctive enough to catch my eye. I didn't get any shots of a spread wing. What ultimately makes me confident is that I heard this guy vocalizing several times. Listening to Lang's recording of both species I have no doubt I was hearing a Western Grebe. Clarks Grebe has more of a clear whistle quality than the vibrato that reached my ear. This is a great bird and learning experience. I was excited to finally get look after several trips into the wind and waves. Happy birding, Gary https://picasaweb.google.com/103826758925032410864/WesternGrebe?authuser=0authkey=Gv1sRgCObEttC66ZHZjAEfeat=directlink On Feb 5, 2012, at 9:13 AM, david nicosia wrote: Here is the link to the photos I took of the Western Grebe...they are all digi-scoped images. http://www.flickr.com/photos/davenicosia/sets/72157629174516367/ Dave Nicosia From: Meena Haribal m...@cornell.edumailto:m...@cornell.edu To: david nicosia daven1...@yahoo.commailto:daven1...@yahoo.com Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 7:21 AM Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Dave, After seeing your pics, you seem to have been much closer than I am, the bill looks yellowish and pointed. Plus average more grayish white flanks on the back too. I would also tend to call it Clark's Grebe. And I think you are the only one who got such detailed pictures. Here is Chris's link. Where you dont see much detail at all. http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinicola/6673387385/in/photostream/ So it would be interesting see what people would call it after your pics. You dont seem to have given link to your pics. Meena Meena Haribal Ithaca NY 14850 http://haribal.org/ http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/ From: bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-39530942-3493...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of david nicosia [daven1...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 9:08 PM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID I got a comment on my flickr account saying that the western grebe photos I posted look more like a clark's grebe. This forced me to do a little research on this as I have never been out west to have to learn to distinguish between these two similar species. The white lore would suggest a clark's grebe in non-breeding plumage but I have read in several field guides and on-line that western grebes in non-breeding can show this too. The bill on the bird I saw today was definitively olive-yellow and I had good lighting. Is this the main field mark that is making this a Western Grebe to everyone? Has anyone considered this could be a clark's grebe? Just curious to what other's thought process was on this. Thanks. Dave Nicosia -- Cayugabirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basicshttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsWELCOME Rules and Informationhttp://www.northeastbirding.com/CayugabirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com
RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID
Hi all, I have been fortunate enough to have some experience comparing Western and Clark's Grebes side by side, both in the breeding season and winter. Relevant to this thread, my experience is that: - At a distance or first glance the most obvious difference between the species is that Clark's Grebes appear not just subtly lighter in shade along their sides, but are blatantly lighter to the extent that even a quick scan of a mixed-species group can pick out pick out Clark's Grebes typically as being essentially white in appearance along their flanks. - To me the second most obvious feature distinguishing the two species is bill colour. Again, my impression is that the distinction between the species is not subtle as long as one is not colour blind. Specifically, I found that Clark's Grebes have a clearly warm (reddish-orange) colour cast, whereas Western Grebes' bills have a cool green colour cast. So, to my eye, the difference in bill colour is greater than is illustrated for example in the Sibley guide, and in direct comparisons between the species I have found that this difference pops out quickly in reasonable lighting conditions. - For wintering grebes, my impression is that the amount of white on the side of the face is a far less clear differentiator of the two species than the above two characteristics. In side-by-side comparisons of the two species, I could see consistent differences. However, in order to find a pair of nearby birds to compare, I would have used flank shade and bill colour to pick out the pair, and then spend time looking carefully at the faces. All in all, I think that Dave's nice photos show all of the characteristics of a Western Grebe, without any clear suggestions of Clark's. All of the above just echoes what Chris wrote in his eBird checklist, to which Anne Marie pointed people. I figured that it would be useful to chime in as to which of the characteristics Chris mentioned are the ones that a lesser mortal would most immediately notice as differentiating the two species in winter. Wesley Hochachka From: bounce-39533270-3494...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39533270-3494...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Kevin J. McGowan Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:49 AM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: RE: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Great shots, guys! Wow, you sure saw it better than I did. It's an interesting question about species ID. I don't have enough experience with the species pair to be overly confident, but I'd have to come down on the side of Western here, or perhaps a hybrid. The face appears paler than a typical winter Western Grebe, but the eye is not close to showing out of the dark the way a Clark's should. The flanks are pale, but they do not ever appear as having white in them the way Clark's do. The bill is olive-yellow, not clear yellow, and there is an obvious dark bottom edge that is typical of Western. Gary's shot of the back of the neck is pretty convincingly wide and dark. Great bird. Let's keep the photos coming. Kevin From: bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edumailto:bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edu]mailto:[mailto:bounce-39533224-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Gary Kohlenberg Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:18 AM To: david nicosia Cc: Meena Haribal; CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] Question on the Western Grebe ID Hi Dave, Nice shots. I'm sending a link to the ones I took on Fri., the 3rd, which show the view of the hind neck. I struggled with the separation of Western / Clark's because I don't have experience with either bird. I didn't doubt the great birders that found and ID'd this guy as Western, but took the opportunity to refine my eye. The field guides like Sibley's / Crossley's etc. leave some ambiguity with these guys. What I wondered about was light lores and the lighter shading of the flanks with a plain demarkation which seems to fall more in line with the Clark's illustrations. The light lores can show in both I gather and the bill is definitely more to the olive-yellow end than bright yellow at least in the light that I had, which wasn't bad. The hind neck black stripe is broad as you can see in my photo and the illustrations of Clark's narrower stripe would seem to be distinctive enough to catch my eye. I didn't get any shots of a spread wing. What ultimately makes me confident is that I heard this guy vocalizing several times. Listening to Lang's recording of both species I have no doubt I was hearing a Western Grebe. Clarks Grebe has more of a clear whistle quality than the vibrato that reached my ear. This is a great bird and learning experience. I was excited to finally get look after several trips into the wind and waves. Happy birding, Gary https://picasaweb.google.com/103826758925032410864/WesternGrebe?authuser=0authkey
