Re: [ccp4bb] relations between groups and subgroups?

2012-11-15 Thread James Holton
Everyone knows that there are 230 space groups, and these belong to one 
of 32 point groups, which, in turn, belong to one of the 14 Bravais 
lattices, and 7 crystal systems: triclinic, monoclinic, orthorhombic, 
tetragonal, hexagonal, rhombohedral and cubic.


Or are there?  If you look in ${CLIBD}/symop.lib of your nearest CCP4 
Suite install, you will find not 230 but 266 entries for space groups, 
and 43 different kinds of point groups.  And those so-called 
rhombohedral systems can apparently be represented as hexagonal, so 
maybe there are only six crystal systems?


Blasphemy!  (I can almost hear the purists now)  But, the point I am 
trying to make here is that there is a disconnect between the 
traditional way that crystallography is taught (aka Chapter 1: crystal 
symmetry) and the pragmatic practice of crystallography (aka what 
MOSFLM is doing).  It is ironic really that the first thing you must 
decide for a new crystal is its space group when in reality it is the 
last thing you will ever be certain about it.  Probably one of the most 
common examples of this is the P2221 and P21212 space groups.  
Technically, P2122, P2212, etc are NOT space groups!  However, given 
that orthorhombic unit cells are traditionally sorted abc, simply 
giving such a unit cell with the space group P2221 is not enough 
information to be sure which axis is the screwy one.  Also, I'm sure 
many of you have noticed that for any trigonal/hexagonal crystal there 
is always a C222 cell that comes up in autoindexing?  This is because 
you can always index a trigonal lattice along a diagonal and that 
makes it look like centered orthorhombic.  But, if you try going with 
that C222 choice you find that it doesn't merge ... most of the time.


The fact of the matter is that all autoindexing algorithms give you is a 
unit cell, and that is just six numbers.  The cell dimensions generally 
allow you to EXCLUDE a great many symmetry operations, but they can 
never really INFER symmetry.  Except, of course, in the special case 
where all three angles of the reduced cell are not 90 (or 60) degrees, 
then the only possible space group is P1.  On the other hand, it is 
perfectly possible to have P1 symmetry with all three cell edges the 
same length and all angles 90 degrees.  It just isn't very likely (in 
the posterior probability sense).  This is why MOSFLM and other 
autoindexing programs pick the highest-symmetry lattice and give you a 
space group consistent with that lattice, even though there are plenty 
of other possibilities.  This is why you should always take the space 
group that comes out of autoindexing with a grain of salt. Do NOT make 
the mistake of classifying your crystals by the result of autoindexing 
alone!


Something similar is true for point groups.  A high Rsym for a given 
symmetry operator (like you will see in the output of pointless) means 
that there is NO WAY that the given symmetry operation is part of the 
space group.  A low Rsym, however, does not mean that you have a given 
symmetry.  Could always be some kind of twinning or 
nearly-crystallographic NCS (NCNCS?). Twinning is relatively rare, and 
gets increasingly rare as you get into the non-merohedral stuff, but it 
is always a possibility. Yes, intensity statistics can tell you 
something is twinned, but if you have just the right mixture of twinning 
and pseudotranslation, then the twinning can go undetected.  So, in 
general, you can always have _less_ symmetry than you think, but proving 
the existence of a symmetry operation is hard.


Space groups, or narrowing down the screw vs rotation nature of various 
axes generally requires phasing and looking at a map.  The one with 
right-handed alpha helices is the correct one.  Yes, there are plenty of 
tricks like systematic absences, native Pattersons and the like but 
there are a lot of false positives and false negatives possible with 
each of these.  In fact, you tend to throw out more rejects in scaling 
than you ever have observations of systematic absences, so why trust 
those absent spots so much?  In fact, sometimes you need to even go 
all the way to the end of refinement to settle the space group.  It is 
possible to get stuck with R/Rfree too high because the crystal very 
slightly violates the symmetry you think it has.  (NCNCS again)


Whatever you do, don't forget to try all the possible P2122-like space 
groups if you are searching for heavy atoms or doing MR with a primitive 
orthorhombic crystal.  Far too many people have missed solving their 
structure because they didn't know to do this! Fortunately, modern 
computers tend to have 8 or so CPUs in them, and there are never more 
than 8 space groups possible on any given point group.  So, you might as 
well launch 8 parallel MR or heavy-atom site-finding jobs in different 
space groups, since it will take just as long to run 8 jobs as it will 
take to do only one.  Well, okay, some of the non-protein ones have more 
than 8 

[ccp4bb] relations between groups and subgroups?

2012-11-13 Thread vincent Chaptal

Dear all,

I am not sure I understand point groups and relations between groups and 
subgroups anymore, and would appreciate some guidance.


I was under the impression that all point groups were related to an 
original P1 cell, and that by applying specific lattice symmetries, one 
could get higher point groups. Thus, if one knows the symmetry 
operators, one could jump from one point group to another. Inspection of 
the reflections can then determine the real point group and space group.

At least that's what I thought Mosflm was doing? Am I correct?
P1 +(symm-opp)C2 + (symm-opp2)P3
same P1 +(symm-opp3) P2 + (symm-opp4)P222 
If that's the case, could someone point to me where to find these 
symmetry opperators (International tables?), because it's not obvious to 
me.


Or are these relations between groups and subgroups only true for 
certain crystals where the cell parameters are specific, and allows a 
symmetry operator to generate a higher symmetry point group?


Thank you for your help.
vincent


Re: [ccp4bb] relations between groups and subgroups?

2012-11-13 Thread Harry Powell
Hi

The relations are in International Tables Vol A; in the 2006 edition you find 
them in section 9.2 by P.M. de Wolff, pp 750 - 755; the transformations for the 
44 characteristic lattices (or lattice characters...) are in Table 9.2.5.1.

In Mosflm, the autoindexing penalties are based on the differences between the 
result of the transformations applied to the real triclinic basis and what you 
would get if the result was perfect.

On 13 Nov 2012, at 09:55, vincent Chaptal wrote:

 Dear all,
 
 I am not sure I understand point groups and relations between groups and 
 subgroups anymore, and would appreciate some guidance.
 
 I was under the impression that all point groups were related to an original 
 P1 cell, and that by applying specific lattice symmetries, one could get 
 higher point groups. Thus, if one knows the symmetry operators, one could 
 jump from one point group to another. Inspection of the reflections can then 
 determine the real point group and space group.
 At least that's what I thought Mosflm was doing? Am I correct?
 P1 +(symm-opp)C2 + (symm-opp2)P3
 same P1 +(symm-opp3) P2 + (symm-opp4)P222 
 If that's the case, could someone point to me where to find these symmetry 
 opperators (International tables?), because it's not obvious to me.
 
 Or are these relations between groups and subgroups only true for certain 
 crystals where the cell parameters are specific, and allows a symmetry 
 operator to generate a higher symmetry point group?
 
 Thank you for your help.
 vincent

Harry
--
Dr Harry Powell, MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology, MRC Centre, Hills Road, 
Cambridge, CB2 0QH
Chairman of European Crystallographic Association SIG9 (Crystallographic 
Computing)