Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-03 Thread Navdeep Sidhu
Dear Ian, I stand corrected: I should have realized before writing rather than afterwards that you were surely stressing the formalization (or formalisation) part. Cheers, Navdeep --- On 02.07.20 22:09, Ian Tickle wrote: > > Hi Navdeep > > Yes good point, the principle of redundancy (though t

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-03 Thread Winter, Graeme (DLSLtd,RAL,LSCI)
Thanks Ian - I think you raise some excellent points - while I think the general reader (TM) would understand that redundancy and multiplicity mean broadly the same thing in Table 1, I think having program developers document _precisely_ what they mean by those values would be very valuable. I a

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-02 Thread Ian Tickle
Hi Navdeep Yes good point, the principle of redundancy (though they wouldn't have used that term!) has a very long history, but von Neumann did more than anyone before him to formalise it: http://www.cyclify.com/wiki/images/a/af/Von_Neumann_Probabilistic_Logics_and_the_Synthesis_of_Reliable_Organ

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-02 Thread Navdeep Sidhu
Dear Ian, You seem to be slightly off there: The successful use of repeating observations to reduce (especially systematic) observational error predates von Neumann by at least 4 centuries. One of the first instances of its use was in the 1500s, due to a migrant scientist working in Denmark and P

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-02 Thread John R Helliwell
Good morning Jose, The devil is always on the detail:- You are of course correct that I had presumed, as Ethan pointed out, a sub 10 fsec pulse. Neutrons creating magnetic waves, you are again correct, “spin echo“ does occur, but without damage though as neutrons have such gentle energies versu

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread Ethan A Merritt
On Wednesday, 1 July 2020 18:50:57 PDT Jose Brandao-Neto wrote: > Hi Ian, good to hear! Hi everyone, thanks for the etymological - and > etiological - discussion. I'm good whatever the choice. > > John, I beg to differ with the absolute statement that xfels offer damage > free hkls - back in 201

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread Jose Brandao-Neto
Hi Ian, good to hear! Hi everyone, thanks for the etymological - and etiological - discussion. I'm good whatever the choice. John, I beg to differ with the absolute statement that xfels offer damage free hkls - back in 2016 yet another great experimental work, by Inoue et al (https://www.pnas.o

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread John R Helliwell
Dear Ian, I take issue with your assertion below that “the totally precise **scientific** meaningis an **engineering**” definition. Science and engineering are not the same. Health and safety leads to the need in engineering for redundancy and indeed safety factors. In essence, in engineer

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread Goldman, Adrian
I find, when discussing definitions of words, it’s always good to look in the OED (well, the SOED, I don’t have the big one). For redundant (redundancy being defined as the state or quality of being redundant), we find: 1. Superabundant, superfluous, excessive. b. Characterised by superfluity o

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread Ian Tickle
Yes this seems to be a common misunderstanding, that the meanings of words such as 'redundancy' have to be the same in an informal non-scientific context and in a formal technical/scientific context. So we can say that in an informal context, 'redundancy' means "unnecessary duplication (or multipl

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-07-01 Thread John R Helliwell
t; > > Cacophonically yours, > > > > > > > > BR > > > > > > > > From: CCP4 bulletin board On Behalf Of John R > > Helliwell > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 08:36 > > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > Subject: R

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread 00000c2488af9525-dmarc-request
> BR > >  > > From: CCP4 bulletin board On Behalf Of John R Helliwell > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 08:36 > To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset? > >  > > Dear Herman, &

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Gerard Bricogne
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full > dataset? > > > > Dear Herman, > > I think that MPR is a very neat and tidy, excellent, proposal. > > Moreover it uses the word “measurements”, and we are an

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Frank von Delft
Gerard, fantastic proposal - let's call it "abundancy"!!! Which developer will be the first to change their logfile? On 30/06/2020 16:38, Gerard Bricogne wrote: Dear Phil, I would like to make an attempt to not let this question get mired in exchanges of well-researched linguistic argum

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Bernhard Rupp
bulletin board On Behalf Of John R Helliwell Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 08:36 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset? Dear Herman, I think that MPR is a very neat and tidy, excellent, proposal. Moreover it uses the

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Gerard Bricogne
Dear Phil, I would like to make an attempt to not let this question get mired in exchanges of well-researched linguistic arguments at risk of being drowned in a cacophony of sound bites :-) . You refer to the days of SCALA, at which time data were collected on CCD detectors, whose lengt

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread John R Helliwell
Dear Herman, I think that MPR is a very neat and tidy, excellent, proposal. Moreover it uses the word “measurements”, and we are an experimental based science. I support it. Great. Greetings, John Emeritus Professor John R Helliwell DSc > On 30 Jun 2020, at 15:10, Schreuder, Herman /DE > w

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Phil Evans
I changed the annotation from “Redundancy” to “Multiplicity” in Scala, later in Aimless, after I was taken to task by Elspeth Garman with the argument as stated, that if it’s redundant why did you bother to measure it? (this one could run and run …) Phil > On 30 Jun 2020, at 14:07, Ian Tickle

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread Ian Tickle
I agree about RAID but I would go a lot further. There seems to be some confusion here over the correct meaning of 'redundant' as used in a scientific context. I don't think looking it up in an English dictionary is very helpful. So as has been mentioned the non-scientific and rather imprecise m

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread David Schuller
By all means, if you still have "disks" you should get rid of them, and replace them with some modern storage. On 2020-06-29 21:17, Edward A. Berry wrote: Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or at least not replace them when they fail? On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andrea

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread David Waterman
Ok, the analogy is not great because most reflection data sets have some "fault tolerance" whereas RAID 0 does not. But the point is that anything that is not an exact copy and brings actual information should not be considered "redundant" On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 09:00 David Waterman, wrote: > Refl

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-30 Thread David Waterman
Reflections are as "redundant" as the disks in a RAID 0 array On Tue, 30 Jun 2020, 02:49 James Holton, wrote: > What could possibly go wrong? > > -James Holton > MAD Scientist > > On 6/29/2020 6:17 PM, Edward A. Berry wrote: > > Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or at

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-29 Thread James Holton
What could possibly go wrong? -James Holton MAD Scientist On 6/29/2020 6:17 PM, Edward A. Berry wrote: Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or at least not replace them when they fail? On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andreas Förster wrote: I like to think that the reflections

Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] number of frames to get a full dataset?

2020-06-29 Thread Edward A. Berry
Now can we get rid of all the superfluous disks in our RAID? Or at least not replace them when they fail? On 06/29/2020 06:24 PM, Andreas Förster wrote: I like to think that the reflections I carefully measured at high multiplicity are not redundant, which the dictionary on my computer defines