RE: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-10 Thread Dave Wade via cctalk
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules > Richardson via cctalk > Sent: 10 October 2017 12:22 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and > IDE ] >

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-10 Thread Jules Richardson via cctalk
On 10/09/2017 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 10/09/2017 06:52 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: My understanding there is that true SASI supports just a single target, and so there's no selection phase like there is with SCSI (and SCSI provides an extra signal on the connector

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-10 Thread Liam Proven via cctalk
On 9 October 2017 at 19:52, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm not entirely sure about that--the PC Megastore contained both a disk > and a tape drive. So more than a single device. Did they have separately-settable IDs? Otherwise, LUNs, I'd think, but I'd also expect

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk
On Oct 9, 2017 11:51 AM, "Mark Linimon via cctalk" wrote: On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 08:52:26AM -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Lots of early SCSI devices have no support for the Inquiry command, which > trips up modern software which expects it - I don't know if

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Chuck Guzis via cctalk
On 10/09/2017 06:52 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > My understanding there is that true SASI supports just a single target, > and so there's no selection phase like there is with SCSI (and SCSI > provides an extra signal on the connector uses during selection, which > simply isn't there

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Mark Linimon via cctalk
On Mon, Oct 09, 2017 at 08:52:26AM -0500, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Lots of early SCSI devices have no support for the Inquiry command, which > trips up modern software which expects it - I don't know if it was simply > ignored, or if there was a point in time where it wasn't present in

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Jules Richardson via cctalk
On 10/09/2017 10:42 AM, Jon Elson wrote: On 10/09/2017 08:52 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: My understanding there is that true SASI supports just a single target, and so there's no selection phase like there is with SCSI No, not true. Each of the 8 data lines selected one target, so

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Jon Elson via cctalk
On 10/09/2017 08:52 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: My understanding there is that true SASI supports just a single target, and so there's no selection phase like there is with SCSI No, not true. Each of the 8 data lines selected one target, so you could have 8 targets on one

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-09 Thread Jules Richardson via cctalk
On 10/05/2017 01:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: You could well be right--I do recall that there was "Mac SCSI" and then the slightly different "Everyone else's SCSI". I ran into this when talking with some SMS/OMTI engineers about an ST506-to-SCSI bridge board that I have. Their reaction

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-06 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: Supposedly the Mac Plus SCSI implementation is slightly broken/non-standard (or at least draft standard), either in its drivers or the SCSI controller chip, so maybe that's what they were referring to. Even TRIVIAL differences can bite

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-06 Thread Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > You could well be right--I do recall that there was "Mac SCSI" and then > the slightly different "Everyone else's SCSI". I ran into this when > talking with some SMS/OMTI engineers about an ST506-to-SCSI

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-06 Thread Liam Proven via cctalk
On 6 October 2017 at 06:11, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote: > > Notwithstanding the first Macintosh models lacked SCSI entirely. The first > Macintosh with SCSI was the Plus, in 1986. Well, this is true, but then again, there weren't many models of Mac before the Mac Plus,

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-06 Thread r.stricklin via cctalk
On Oct 5, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Tom Gardner via cctech wrote: > I was at Shugart at that time and to the best of my recollection Apple was > not a driver of the ANSI activity. > The Macintosh shipped in January 1984 well after the ANSI SCSI work started > and its major distinguishing feature was

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-06 Thread allison via cctalk
On 10/05/2017 09:39 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > The DK Driver for VMS versions around 5.x definitely had a problem with > non-DEC disks. 6.X and greater were slightly more forgiving. Having many of the era DEC VAX I can say the only SCSI issue I had was the boot disk greater than 1.07

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Jon Elson via cctalk
On 10/05/2017 01:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: What I found curious was the CDC manual that called SCSI "SASI subset". To me that says that SASI was the more elaborate protocol and SCSI initially picked and chose from it. Oh, no! SASI was VERY simple. You could read and write a

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Jerry Weiss via cctalk
The DK Driver for VMS versions around 5.x definitely had a problem with non-DEC disks. 6.X and greater were slightly more forgiving. The specifics are summarized in a note from Ralph Weber in

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Peter Coghlan via cctalk
The biggest problem you had was the requirement to assert ATN when selected properly.  Later the tag queuing caused huge headaches as manufacturers implemented that feature. It eventually was made mandatory for the most part by linux, and perhaps Windows requiring the tag queuing drilled

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Phil Blundell via cctalk
On Thu, 2017-10-05 at 11:50 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > What I found curious was the CDC manual that called SCSI "SASI > subset". > To me that says that SASI was the more elaborate protocol and SCSI > initially picked and chose from it. I think that's just bad/ambiguous wording and

Re: The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Chuck Guzis via cctalk
On 10/05/2017 11:18 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > I suspect this might start another discussion, but as I understand it Apple > had little to do with the evolution of SASI into SCSI. > Shugart Associates published SASI in 1981 and took it to ANSI in 1982 where > they renamed it SCSI to

The origin of SCSI [WAS:RE: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE ]

2017-10-05 Thread Tom Gardner via cctalk
I suspect this might start another discussion, but as I understand it Apple had little to do with the evolution of SASI into SCSI. Shugart Associates published SASI in 1981 and took it to ANSI in 1982 where they renamed it SCSI to avoid using a vendors name. To quote from the draft SCSI 1