date:20171003

On 10/03/2017 06:58 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote:

> HP manuals of the period are awfully detailed. They all have the theory of
> operation section with a circuit walkthrough, etc. It could be helpful for
> you to also take a look at the manual for the 13181 or 13183 controller set,
> as you'll kinda be doing what that boardset does.

If you get a 7970B or -C, get the service+operation manual from the HP
Museum.  Al has a bunch of 7970 stuff on bitsavers, but not, I think (I
could be wrong) the manual specific to the B and C models.  All of the
HP manuals have lots of detail (the drives had almost endless revisions
and additions, which can be confusing if you're just trying to figure
out what you've got)--and still, your drive may be slightly different.

For example, I've got a -B made in 1984 and the write-protect mechanism
doesn't match any of the variations in the manual.  This was important
to me as on of the microswitches was broken on mine.

But now that I've got the -B outfitted with 7/9 track read stack, write
protect doesn't matter so much.  I"m still tweaking the various
adjustments on the drive (have a dual-trace 'scope handy) and it's
getting very good.

Currently, I'm using it to read old 7-track tapes and create SIMH .TAP
files on a (shared) SDCard.

I used a generic STM32F407 evaluation board, mounted it on a hunk of
prototype board and fit a 50 line ribbon connectors to it.  Hookup
between the MCU board and the connector was done with wire-wrap.  The
MCU board even has a battery-backed real-time clock on it, so my files
are all correctly date-stamped.   I got the 48-conductor edge connectors
for the other end of the cable from Anchor Electronics in San Jose.

For switching between the heads, I built a small board that bolts to the
head mounting plate and contains a 34-line ribbon connector for the head
leads and a 20 line edge connector for the read preamp--and 5 small DPDT
DIP relays to do the switching.   The relay coils occupy a couple of
lines in the cable connecting the drive to the MCU, so I can shift
between the heads under software control.

So far, so good.

--Chuck

Re: Tek 4051 ROM cart box

2017-10-03 Thread Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk


On 10/3/2017 9:25 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Randy Dawson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


I think he has a few of these left.  The big problem is the RAMPACK
plastic cases are recycled from old ROMPACKs and these are in short supply.


He is looking for a 'Toaster' too.  Can we get a count of active 405x
users out there, and start a group effort to build, swap, restore 405x
hardware?



Were you looking to start a list? A group? A megathread?
Proud owner of a few 4051s and a basket case 4054 reporting in here.

I think Bob R. on the list had done a printable version of the ROMPACK
cases. It may be worth asking him about it, he might be willing to provide
an STL file.


You can find my STL files, and a photo of my first printed box, here:

http://dvq.com/tek/romcart/

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

RE: (Classic Computers) HP 7970 1/2" 9-Track Reel-to-Reel Tape Drive

2017-10-03 Thread Jack Harper via cctalk



Hello Jay et. al...

I appreciate the feedback.

I begin to understand - so, for example an HP2100 with the 7970 tape 
option had a specific tape controller board that talked direct to the 7970.


That certainly makes sense.

I never used an HP2100 with a "real" tape drive such as the 7970 - 
actually just paper tape back in 1974-1978 where I wrote in ASM (a 
bit ugly with no index register) and ALGOL (I still have the box of 
paper tapes somewhere with that four pass ALGOL compiler  - that nice 
black oiled paper with the smell  :)


I am delighted to hear that people have actually built a 7970 
interface and got it to work mostly in pure software.


That is good news and gives me hope :)

It sounds fairly straightforward with GPIO and a simple processor and 
probably a good sized chunk of fiddling around with timing and all 
that - e.g., gap detection.


The clocked data would certainly be a help.

The obvious(?) thing to do would be to wire-wrap a custom VME board 
similar to what Chuck Guzis did to interface into the 68K system that 
I have put together - but, I am far stronger in software than 
hardware (for sure) and the VME interface would be a headache for me 
- probably the main headache.


But, I could cure that by simply using a small processor of some sort 
on the wire-wrapped VME board and just draw power for that from the 
VMEbus - and transmit the data back and forth to the MVME177/68060 
processor board (actually five of those in my rack) across something 
simple such as serial or some such, though would certainly be better 
to go through the VMEbus.


Interesting indeed.

Jay, I appreciate the helpful response.  Thank you.

I will read the 7970 interface specifications more carefully now that 
I understand better the context.  The timing issues are, of course, key.



Regards and my best to the list.

Jack





At 06:30 PM 10/3/2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote:

Jack wrote
> Question:  I understand that most (all?) of the '7970 drives 
interfaced through the HP-IB IEEE-488 bus.


To which AEK replied
--
wrong.

full stop.
--

Welcome to our nook of the net. The grizzled veterans are here, and 
there's quite a few HP 2100/21MX folks lurking about. Ask away


To start... Al is correct. The 7970A/B used a basically proprietary 
interface. So did the 7970E, but on the E you could get an HP-IB 
option. I've never once seen that option in the wild though, so I 
don't think one would say "most" had it. I do have a handful of 
7970E's running and a 7970B I should probably get rid of Chuck 
Guzis had recently posted the following which may shed light:


- Chuck Wisdom Follows --
If you're accustomed to a Pertec interface, then the 800 interface 
isn't terribly different, just dumber.  You still have a connector 
for the basic motion and status commands (i.e. forward, reverse, 
rewind, high-speed and online, loadpoint, ready, protect) and you 
have two 8-bit+parity clocked data channels for read and write 
respectively, each with their own connector.


However, there is no formatter, as on Pertec interface drives.  You 
get the raw, framed and deskewed data on read and pretty much 
anything you want to put in on write.   No "handshaking" as the 
interfaces are not buffered. {snip} The lack of a formatter means 
that you'll have to do the work of gap detection, parity 
checking/generation and CRC/LRCC interpretation and generation 
yourself, as well as manage the control lines.


I used a small STM32F407 MCU board (about $10) which has lots of 5V 
tolerant I/O, so receiving data and status is no problem.  For 
driving control lines, simply set the GPIO pins for open-drain operation.
There's something like 24ma of sinking capacity on those, so again, 
no need for intermediate logic.   Since I'm interested in reading 
tapes, but not writing them, I can't address the issue of what to do 
about that end.  My setup uses a serial port for interaction and a 
USB port that makes the onboard SDHC look like a generic storage 
device.  So, read a tape, dump the data into the SDHC (Chan's FATFS 
software is useful); suck it out via the USB port to a PeeSee.


To handle 1600 PE data would require yet another layer of software.
--

Hope this helps

J


--
Jack Harper, President
Secure Outcomes Inc
2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300
Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA

303.670.8375
303.670.3750 (fax)

http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]



On 10/3/17 5:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

I just popped off one of the logic boards, and it is a slightly longer than
usual board with a WD1015-JM, WD11C00-JU. WD10C20B-JH-05, AND WD2010BJM05-02

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

On 10/3/17 5:39 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

> Does CHM have the e-mail on IDE history with Bill Frank, Tony Maggio and 
> Ralph Perry listed in the references?

[21] Tony Maggio and Ralph Perry email on CDC Wren II IDE Drive, December 15, 
2009

Tom probably has it, I don't recall seeing it.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]




On 10/3/17 5:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 10/3/17 5:03 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:


Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the Compaq 
Deskpro 286. I found separate reports
confirming the Miniscribe HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq 
Deskpro 386 in 1986.

I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

also

http://s3.computerhistory.org/groups/compaq-conner-cp341-ide-ata-drive.pdf



I referred to 
http://chmss.wikifoundry.com/page/Compaq%2FConner+CP341+IDE%2FATA+Drive, 
which is a Wiki version of the same history.


Does CHM have the e-mail on IDE history with Bill Frank, Tony Maggio and 
Ralph Perry listed in the references?


alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]



On 10/3/17 5:03 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

> Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the Compaq 
> Deskpro 286. I found separate reports
> confirming the Miniscribe HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq 
> Deskpro 386 in 1986.

I have two of the CDC drives, pn 94208-51 date codes 8749 and 8750

also

http://s3.computerhistory.org/groups/compaq-conner-cp341-ide-ata-drive.pdf

RE: (Classic Computers) HP 7970 1/2" 9-Track Reel-to-Reel Tape Drive

2017-10-03 Thread Jay West via cctalk

Jack wrote
> Question:  I understand that most (all?) of the '7970 drives interfaced 
> through the HP-IB IEEE-488 bus.

To which AEK replied
--
wrong.

full stop.
--

Welcome to our nook of the net. The grizzled veterans are here, and there's 
quite a few HP 2100/21MX folks lurking about. Ask away

To start... Al is correct. The 7970A/B used a basically proprietary interface. 
So did the 7970E, but on the E you could get an HP-IB option. I've never once 
seen that option in the wild though, so I don't think one would say "most" had 
it. I do have a handful of 7970E's running and a 7970B I should probably get 
rid of Chuck Guzis had recently posted the following which may shed light:

- Chuck Wisdom Follows --
If you're accustomed to a Pertec interface, then the 800 interface isn't 
terribly different, just dumber.  You still have a connector for the basic 
motion and status commands (i.e. forward, reverse, rewind, high-speed and 
online, loadpoint, ready, protect) and you have two 8-bit+parity clocked data 
channels for read and write respectively, each with their own connector.

However, there is no formatter, as on Pertec interface drives.  You get the 
raw, framed and deskewed data on read and pretty much anything you want to put 
in on write.   No "handshaking" as the interfaces are not buffered. {snip} The 
lack of a formatter means that you'll have to do the work of gap detection, 
parity checking/generation and CRC/LRCC interpretation and generation yourself, 
as well as manage the control lines.

I used a small STM32F407 MCU board (about $10) which has lots of 5V tolerant 
I/O, so receiving data and status is no problem.  For driving control lines, 
simply set the GPIO pins for open-drain operation.
There's something like 24ma of sinking capacity on those, so again, no need for 
intermediate logic.   Since I'm interested in reading tapes, but not writing 
them, I can't address the issue of what to do about that end.  My setup uses a 
serial port for interaction and a USB port that makes the onboard SDHC look 
like a generic storage device.  So, read a tape, dump the data into the SDHC 
(Chan's FATFS software is useful); suck it out via the USB port to a PeeSee.

To handle 1600 PE data would require yet another layer of software.
--

Hope this helps

J

Re: PCMCIA (Was: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting




On 10/3/17 4:25 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out




On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Warner Losh wrote:

PC Cards, defined by the PCMICA standards body, appeared to always be
called that.


The slots in the Poqet predate the PCMCIA specification.
In the original release, Poqet NEVER mentioned "PCMCIA".
It seems likely/obvious? that the Poqet engineers worked from a 
pre-release version of the spec, but they scrupulously avoided 
mentioning that until after PCMCIA became "official"


They do seem the same as PCMCIA Type1, Rev1/0, other than that the 
Poqet calls for cards that can handle lower voltage, and only work 
with SRAM and ROM cards.  The Poqet can NOT use a PCMCIA modem, SCSI 
interface, etc.
The one that the CIS department at the college bought came with a ROM 
card of Lotus!  When the Poqet was sent back to Fry's for repairs soon 
after, the Lotus card "disappeared" at Fry's.


The Poqet predates the PCMCIA spec, but products based on unapproved 
drafts is hardly a new thing in the computer industry.


Stealing from Wikipedia -
"The PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association) 
industry organization was based on the original initiative of the 
British mathematician and computer scientist Ian Cullimore, one of the 
founders of the Sunnyvale-based Poqet Computer Corporation, who was 
seeking to integrate some kind of memory card technology as storage 
medium into their early DOS-based palmtop PCs, when traditional floppy 
drives and harddisks were found to be too power-hungry and large to fit 
into their battery-powered handheld devices. When in July 1989, Poqet 
contacted Fujitsu for their existing but still non-standardized SRAM 
memory cards, and Intel for their flash technology, the necessity and 
potential of establishing a worldwide memory card standard became 
obvious to the parties involved. This led to the foundation of the 
PCMCIA organization in September 1989."


alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]




On 10/3/17 3:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee 
meeting in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA 
document" was nearly complete:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt
I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of 
the document appeared in Mar 1989.


We would need to compare that with WD internal discussions, OR
compare public discussions.
ATA committee existed, and was working on a standard; then WD sold 
products; then ATA standard was formally released.



Comparing "FIRST"s in development, is not the same as comparing 
"FIRST"s in release or production.


There are plenty of other races, where one was first to be built, but 
a different one was first to be available.



My guess of the timeline, is that MANY people wanted the same idea. 
People in the standards committee(s) started to discuss it, while some 
drive engineers started to build them.

Were members of committee talking about it before WD spoke up?
Were WD engineers working on it before committee mentioned it?
Yes, to both.


I suggest that you read the narratives at the two links that I posted in 
my subsequent posting.


WD initialy made the controller boards. As noted elsewhere, they did not 
make HDDs themselves at that point. They shopped it around in late 1984 
and got interest from Compaq. According to the document that I am 
referencing, WD did a IDE-to-ST506 board that was used with Miniscribe 
10M and 20M ST506 drives in Compaq Portable IIs (announced Feb 1986). 
Compaq and WD also worked with CDC to use the Wren II HH drive in the 
Compaq Deskpro 286. I found separate reports confirming the Miniscribe 
HDD in the Portable II and the Wren II in a Compaq Deskpro 386 in 1986. 
There were also a number of Conner IDE HDDs (CP340 family) in 1987.  
These were all products released before the SCSI-2 CAM committee was 
formed. However, I have not found any contemporary documentation for any 
of them, so I can't determine whether the interface is called IDE in any 
of them.


alan


The standards committee(s) called it "AT attachment"; the WD engineers 
called it "IDE" NEITHER name was used publicly.  YET.


The committees started to draft standards.  WD started to market.

WD probably pushed the committee(s) to use WD's pinout and details.
Companies are ALWAYS pushing standards committees to do it THEIR way.

Motherboard makers started to call theirs "IDE", because calling them 
ATA might run afoul of the not-yet-released standard.  "ATA" was 
hardly a secret, but it wasn't "official" yet.


When the standard was released, the MB makers were already calling it 
"IDE", and that stuck, in spite of "ATA" becoming the "official" name 
and standard.



Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize 
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry 
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that 
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out"

Re: (Classic Computers) HP 7970 1/2" 9-Track Reel-to-Reel Tape Drive



On 10/3/17 4:50 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote:

> Question:  I understand that most (all?) of the '7970 drives interfaced 
> through the HP-IB IEEE-488 bus.

wrong.

full stop.

(Classic Computers) HP 7970 1/2" 9-Track Reel-to-Reel Tape Drive

2017-10-03 Thread Jack Harper via cctalk




Hello List -

I just joined the list a few days ago. I am delighted to have found you.

I have a couple of questions about the gorgeous HP 7970 Tape Drive - 
e.g., http://hpmuseum.net/images/7970A-43.jpg



Question:  I understand that most (all?) of the '7970 drives 
interfaced through the HP-IB IEEE-488 bus.  Do most (all?) of the 
tape drives include an HP-IB interface card?? Reason that I ask is 
that reading the 7970 specifications documentation makes me wonder as 
it really talks only about signal lines that do specific tapey things 
such as REWIND and the like and not anything that I saw specifically 
about HP-IB?   So, if I find a 7970 somewhere can I reasonably assume 
that the HP-IB interface card will be there?


Question:  I contemplate talking to the 7970 from the Motorola 68060 
development system that I have assembled through a VME <-> HP-IB 
interface VME board. There appears to be good documentation for such 
a VME <-> HP-IB board and I wonder if it makes sense to try to build 
a simple device driver for the 7970 tape drive in 68K assembly???   I 
do have a listing, for example, of an 7970 device driver written in 
HP2100 assembly language and could use that as a rough template, 
especially if I kept things as simple possible with polling, minimal 
if no interrupts, no DMA etc.  I wrote a lot of HP2100 assembly 
language software back ion the day and can understand that without 
too much difficulty - and I also built device drivers in 68K assembly 
years and years ago in another life.  Does any of that make 
sense??  Has anyone tried that sort of thing?


Question:  Has anyone tried to control a 7970 tape drive by using 
pure digital output - there are VME boards that make that easy to do 
that have, say, 32 input/output digital lines that are easy to 
read/write from within the 68K world.   Is that a feasible thing to 
think about or just madness?  At first blush, I can see how a 50Mhz 
68060 processor should be able to keep up with an early 1970's tape 
drive - or, maybe not...


Question:  Anyone have experience talking to a 7970 tape drive from 
something other than an HP computer - something that does not have 
HP-IB???  How is that usually done??


I greatly appreciate any advice and/or counsel.


Regards to the List,

Jack Harper
Evergreen, Colorado



--
Jack Harper, President
Secure Outcomes Inc
2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300
Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA

303.670.8375
303.670.3750 (fax)

http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info.

Re: PCMCIA (Was: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting

2017-10-03 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:

> Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize
>>> Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry
>>> Association", for those who want more formality))
>>> Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that
>>> happened to match PCMCIA when that came out
>>>
>>>
>> On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>> PC Cards, defined by the PCMICA standards body, appeared to always be
>> called that.
>>
>
> The slots in the Poqet predate the PCMCIA specification.
> In the original release, Poqet NEVER mentioned "PCMCIA".
> It seems likely/obvious? that the Poqet engineers worked from a
> pre-release version of the spec, but they scrupulously avoided mentioning
> that until after PCMCIA became "official"

This makes sense. Since the Poqet was 8088 only, I never would have
searched for it (FreeBSD required, at the time, 80386 or better). I learned
something new today about a topic I thought I had nothing of note left to
learn in. Thank you.

They do seem the same as PCMCIA Type1, Rev1/0, other than that the Poqet
> calls for cards that can handle lower voltage, and only work with SRAM and
> ROM cards.  The Poqet can NOT use a PCMCIA modem, SCSI interface, etc.
>

Yea, those PCMICA I/O cards were introduced with PCMCIA 3.0, and the modem,
scsi cards are I/O cards (meaning, they had the pins to do I/O port
accesses on a x86). The earlier Type 1 cards were purely memory cards and
lacked the pins (or the pins were defined in a different way).

Warner

PCMCIA (Was: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting

2017-10-03 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk


Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out




On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Warner Losh wrote:

PC Cards, defined by the PCMICA standards body, appeared to always be
called that.


The slots in the Poqet predate the PCMCIA specification.
In the original release, Poqet NEVER mentioned "PCMCIA".
It seems likely/obvious? that the Poqet engineers worked from a 
pre-release version of the spec, but they scrupulously avoided mentioning 
that until after PCMCIA became "official"


They do seem the same as PCMCIA Type1, Rev1/0, other than that the Poqet 
calls for cards that can handle lower voltage, and only work with SRAM 
and ROM cards.  The Poqet can NOT use a PCMCIA modem, SCSI interface, etc.
The one that the CIS department at the college bought came with a ROM card 
of Lotus!  When the Poqet was sent back to Fry's for repairs soon after, 
the Lotus card "disappeared" at Fry's.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread Warner Losh via cctalk

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
>
> Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize
> Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry
> Association", for those who want more formality))
> Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that
> happened to match PCMCIA when that came out
>

PC Cards, defined by the PCMICA standards body, appeared to always be
called that. I did a lot of looking for oddball early systems and couldn't
find anything that was PC Card-ish but not actually a PC Card. The closest
was the MECIA controller that NEC used in their PC-9801 laptops which
limited severely what could or couldn't be mapped on very odd ways. (NEC
moved on to a standard PCI device by the time they did the PC-9821 ones). I
couldn't find any 486 or 386 laptop that had an expansion slot that wasn't
PCMCIA or something totally different. This was in the late 90's and early
2000's when I was the PC Card guy in FreeBSD... Of course, my inability to
find them on ebay or the like doesn't mean they didn't exist... I also had
trouble finding the IBM KING variation of the ExCa standard that Intel
implemented, but I know it must have existed because older PC Card code
supported it...

Warner

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread Fred Cisin via cctalk


The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee meeting 
in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA document" was nearly 
complete:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt
I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of the 
document appeared in Mar 1989.


We would need to compare that with WD internal discussions, OR
compare public discussions.
ATA committee existed, and was working on a standard; then WD sold 
products; then ATA standard was formally released.



Comparing "FIRST"s in development, is not the same as comparing 
"FIRST"s in release or production.


There are plenty of other races, where one was first to be built, but a 
different one was first to be available.



My guess of the timeline, is that MANY people wanted the same idea. 
People in the standards committee(s) started to discuss it, while some 
drive engineers started to build them.

Were members of committee talking about it before WD spoke up?
Were WD engineers working on it before committee mentioned it?
Yes, to both.

The standards committee(s) called it "AT attachment"; the WD engineers 
called it "IDE" NEITHER name was used publicly.  YET.


The committees started to draft standards.  WD started to market.

WD probably pushed the committee(s) to use WD's pinout and details.
Companies are ALWAYS pushing standards committees to do it THEIR way.

Motherboard makers started to call theirs "IDE", because calling them ATA 
might run afoul of the not-yet-released standard.  "ATA" was hardly a 
secret, but it wasn't "official" yet.


When the standard was released, the MB makers were already calling it 
"IDE", and that stuck, in spite of "ATA" becoming the "official" name and 
standard.



Q: was the card slot in the Poqet "PCMCIA"? ("People Can't Memorize 
Computer Industry Acronyms"  ("Personal Computer Memory Card Industry 
Association", for those who want more formality))
Maybe later ones were, but the first ones were just "card slot" "that 
happened to match PCMCIA when that came out"

Re: Wanted: Parsytec SCSI-T or BBK-S4.

2017-10-03 Thread Erik Baigar via cctalk



Hi Andrew,

thanks for your email and great to hear, that you
managed to get hands on a BBK-S4!

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017, Andrew Back wrote:


Have you got PARIX up and running with the Power Xplorer?



Yes, 1.3.something. I even ported the povray to this hardware
using an older pvmpov version. Most of the time I use some
single Trapu boards from a MegaFrame...



Does it support the PPCs?


Yes, for Transputer-only I am using Helios on the
PowerXplorer (PPCs idle in this case) and with PARIX,
the Transputers are doing the networking part whereas
the PPCs execute the user code.


What do you have got running on your Transputer machines?

I still haven't got round to restoring them. They were stored in a damp
cellar and would benefit from dismantling and a thorough overhaul.


OK, so I am crossinf my fingers, that you will
find some time in the future and the S4 within
your IPX is a good point to start at!


Well, I managed to get an SBus card, although there are no stickers on
the EPROMs and so I hope it will work.


In an emergency I can supply images of the EPROMS I guess.
The first test is restoring the IPX and if your BBK-S4
can be accessed you are a good step further. My first
test here alway is to issue a...

   /usr/etc/transp/s4diag

...to get a dump and see in which slot the BBK-S4 acutally
is. In my case:

 slot 0 -  NO VALID SBUS DEVICESBus
 slot 1 -  NO VALID SBUS DEVICESBus
 slot 2 -  NO VALID SBUS DEVICESBus
 slot 3 -  'CWA: BBKS4'  No link available for checking 
versio


in a Sparcstation IPX to use with it. I need to spend about ??450 on Lemo
connectors to make cables for it!


Well, one cable will be enough to start with. I am
normally using ony one entry into my PowerXplorer-setup.
My biggest test run was with a mesh of 8 Trapus/PPCs.


I also picked up a small Parsys system, but it sadly only has a single
T9000 HTRAM. Can't seem to find any documentation on it either.


Well, I guess, these are very rare and although I have
got a preview chip (i.e. really only the chip without
housing, pins etc.), I also have never seen any
documentation or even software for the T9000...

   Best regards and good luck,

  Erik.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread allison via cctalk




On 10/3/17 12:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 10/03/2017 05:37 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote:


fwiw in the late 80s I was the service department at a small PC
store. I remember seeing these newfangled drives in Compaq
computers, but I don't remember exactly when.  Perhaps 88?  Wikipedia
backs me up that it was Compaq (with WD drives?) as the first large
customer.

Wikipedia is many times wrong, edit please.

Everyone seems to be calling the Compaq drives "Western Digital".  They
weren't WD--they were CDC Wren II HH drives with a WD controller
embedded.  WD didn't get into the drive business until much, much later.

Likely cause, they fact they used WD chipset (1100 series). so it must be WD
which was far from true.

I went back and checked my documents.   The ATA drive that I had was, in
fact, a Wren II.  For all I know, it was the same one that Compaq put in
its boxes, as I picked it up on the surplus market.

It was not a good drive--it failed within a year or so and I scrapped
it.  I understand that my experience with the drive was not unique.

I had three, two crapped fast and one has held up for years...  Then again
I have a Bigfoot 1gb drive that has been good too but that is unusual as 
well.


The market saw a lot of that like Segate ST3660, very bad!   The ST3660A
however was a good drive with better than average life.

That's very different from my experience with the FH Wren drives.   I've
still got a SCSI one installed and running in a 386 box.
Same here.  the worst drive was a WD 8gb scsi, failure date (note rate!) 
was
about one year after install in the server rack.  I had 5 fail and all 
got replaced

with Baracudas.

I ahve a few oddballs from Compaq (of the we own DEC era) hardware that
look like SCSI (50 pin) but are not.  They are 3.5" but fat.

Allison

--Chuck

Re: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

2017-10-03 Thread Pete Lancashire via cctalk

If the CRT floods one can say the CRT is good with one major thing left,
phosphor burns. In a DVST (Direct View Storage Tube) the most common effect
is the burn area will not store with the same potential as the rest of the
tube, or if burned enough will not store at all. There are other things
that can go wrong but so far you know the flood guns are  good, do you see
the man CRT gun assemblies filament light up (can't remember if can been
seen with the shield on) ?

Good Luck, while at Tek I kept thinking of building one but never did.

-pete

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Brad H via cctalk 
wrote:

> Also the computer itself *was* semi-working.. with the monitor board
> disconnected, voltages were good and I could blindly type in a simple
> endless loop program and get the ‘BUSY’ light to light up when I ran it.
>
>
>
> I don’t have the computer just yet and my tech guy didn’t have time to try
> entering something like that.  So I’ll have to confirm.  He seems to think
> three indicator lights on the right come up on power on now and then go
> out.  The power light at the bottom appears to be dead.
>
>
>
> From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.fin...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:39 AM
> To: Brad H ; General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Tek 4051 semi-repaired
>
>
>
> Does it warm up or flood?
>
>
>
> "When I got my 4051, on power up there
>
> would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
> That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
> anything appearing."
>
>
> Care to share with the class what you've done so far?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Brad H via cctalk   > wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
>
>
> My go-to guy for CRT stuff has informed me that he has the CRT on my 4051
> working and that the tube is good.  When I got my 4051, on power up there
> would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
> That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
> anything appearing.
>
>
>
> Wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to go from here?   I'm picking
> up
> the machine this week and will do some more testing.. hopefully the board
> didn't take any damage while he was working on the CRT.
>
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com 
>
>
>
>
>   utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>
> Virus-free.   utm_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
> www.avg.com
>
>
>
>
>

CHM Alto demo event Nov 10

fyi, just noticed this is up now

http://www.computerhistory.org/events/upcoming/#yesterdays-computer-tomorrow-xerox-alto

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread Adam Sampson via cctalk

Tom Gardner via cctalk  writes:

> But again if anyone has any documents dating IDE in the 1980s I’d love
> to see them

Don't forget the Internet Archive's impressive collection of scanned
magazines for questions like this! There are several references in 1989
in Infoworld and similar periodicals.

The earliest I could find from a quick search is this ad from CompuAdd
Corporation in PC Magazine, December 27th 1988, listing PC clones with
"Integrated Drive Electronics fixed disk drive interface" and "IDE fixed
disk drive interface":
https://archive.org/stream/PC-Mag-1988-12-27#page/n227/mode/2up

The ad in the 1988-11-15 issue doesn't mention IDE, so it looks like
that's one of the first times CompuAdd thought it was useful for
marketing...

Cheers,

-- 
Adam Sampson

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM

On 10/3/17 12:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Scott Mueller mentions it in his "Upgrading And Repairing PCs"
http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2028834

He said that "IDE" was a "marketing term", with "ATA" being the
"official" name. Which is pretty much the same as the discussion
here, with both terms being used concurrently, without a clear
comparison of the histories of their origins.

"Which came first? The formal name? or the street name?"

His stuff tends to be fairly accurate. Although he specifically
mentions the Wren II, he makes a statement that the HARDCARD were the
earliest IDE. (Not quite what we were discussing)

He uses IDE as being very general, with ATA being very specific, and
thus opening up tems such as "ATA IDE" and "pre-ATA IDE" But, by using
IDE so loosely as to include HARDCARD, he avoids explicitly declaring
IDE as the SPECIFIC interface, to have existed prior to ATA.

Also, of course, "pre-ATA IDE" can mean IDE prior to the ATA standard
release, rather than prior to the early use of "ATA" as a name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#ATA_standards_versions.2C_transfer_rates.2C_and_features

The whole issue is complicated by the terms only being used in
advertising and spec sheets, since drives of that time never mentioned
their interface type/name on the drive itself.
Thus, finding the relevant drive on a shelf doesn't answer any of the
questions, and it remains a search of User Manuals and advertising.

NOTE: on the ST157, there is a WARNING label to not low level format.

As always, "FIRST" in history is muddled!
"FIRST" to be mentioned
"FIRST" to be OFFICIALLY mentioned
"FIRST" to be advertised
"FIRST" announced
"FIRST" released
"FIRST" to be manufactured
"FIRST" to be shipped
"FIRST" to be standardized
. . . "FIRST" to end up on my bench.

I am continuing to investigate, but I think that IDE came first. I have
found references that describe the Compaq/WD/CDC Wren II HH disk (which
pre-dates the formation of the SCSI-2 CAM committee) as "IDE". Some of
this reportedly comes from the people who did the work (years after the
fact). However, I have yet to find period documents that include the
term "IDE". I don't know if the people who did the work used the term at
the time or were applying it after the fact.

Here are a couple documents that I used as starting points -

http://chmss.wikifoundry.com/page/Compaq%2FConner+CP341+IDE%2FATA+Drive
http://web.archive.org/web/20081004160101/http://www.ata-atapi.com/histcam.html

alan

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM

On 10/03/2017 12:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Also, of course, "pre-ATA IDE" can mean IDE prior to the ATA
> standard release, rather than prior to the early use of "ATA" as a
> name. 

Indeed, you can still find "XTA IDE" and "ATA IDE" mentioned in
literature.  That is, the generic term for an integrated hard drive
interface was IDE, with modifiers XTA and ATA.

At one time, this was important to differentiate the mutually
incompatible  XT interface 8 bit IDE drives from the 16 bit AT interface
drives.

As an aside, many early ATA IDE drives could perform 8 bit transfers,
but that hasn't been true in perhaps 20 years or more.  However, 8 bit
transfers are AFAIK, still a requirement for CF cards.

--Chuck

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]




On 10/3/17 11:40 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were
using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it
called anything else in that timeframe.

That pretty much matches my recollection also.

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt


As I previously posted, these minutes refer one of two CAM Committee 
meeting in May or Jun 1989 where it was announced that the "ATA 
document" was nearly complete:


http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.89/89-075r0.txt

I have found two independent sources that indicate a first draft of the 
document appeared in Mar 1989.


alan



p.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

On 10/03/2017 11:40 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: 
>> So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
>> using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
>> called anything else in that timeframe.
> 
> That pretty much matches my recollection also.

I'll have to dig out my own code ca. 1988 to see what I used in
comments.  I may not have even taken IDE into account as I already had
ESDI code handled--and, from a purely PC-side interface aspect, there's
not a lot of difference; i.e., both respond in the same way to the
IDENTIFY command.

But basically, the question boils down to "Vass you dere, shollie?"

--Chuck

Re: Tek 4051 users and replacement for the 405x QIC Tape

2017-10-03 Thread geneb via cctalk


On Tue, 3 Oct 2017, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:

I think he has a few of these left.  The big problem is the RAMPACK 
plastic cases are recycled from old ROMPACKs and these are in short 
supply.


I googled "tektronix rampack" to see what they looked like.  That would be 
absurdly easy to 3D print.  If someone has one they can loan out, I'd be 
happy to design a printable version and a few test shells for folks to 
play with.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread Phil Blundell via cctalk

On Tue, 2017-10-03 at 18:56 +0100, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: 
> So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
> using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
> called anything else in that timeframe.

That pretty much matches my recollection also.

The earliest use I can find of the "AT Attachment" terminology is the
X3T9 project proposal from late 1990 which eventually led to the
formation of the X3T10 group:

http://www.t10.org/ftp/x3t9.2/document.90/90-058r2.txt

p.

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

2017-10-03 Thread Pete Turnbull via cctalk


On 03/10/2017 01:04, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if 
there is any I would like to see it.


Well, actually, there is, though not for quite as early as I had those 
conversations.  The company I was referring to was HCCS Associates, and 
although I can't find a copyright date for their original software, I 
can find pictures of the interfaces, clearly labelled "IDE", and one 
version of the software, called "IDE Manager".  It's version 2.1, dated 
February 1990.  They used mostly, but not exclusively, Connor drives, by 
the way.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#H
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/HCCS_IDE_A3000.html

Another I can find is another company who made an interface for a 
slightly later machine from the same family, and one version does carry 
a date, also 1990.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/ICS_ideA.html

The Watford Electronics IDE interface (called WE-IDE) for the same 
series of machines was released about the same time.  The software is 
dated September 1989.  They used Western Digital drives, amongst others.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#W

So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were 
using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990.  I never heard it 
called anything else in that timeframe.



-Original Message-
From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com]



Nope.  I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was 
creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn
Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

RE: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

2017-10-03 Thread Brad H via cctalk

Also the computer itself *was* semi-working.. with the monitor board 
disconnected, voltages were good and I could blindly type in a simple endless 
loop program and get the ‘BUSY’ light to light up when I ran it.

 

I don’t have the computer just yet and my tech guy didn’t have time to try 
entering something like that.  So I’ll have to confirm.  He seems to think 
three indicator lights on the right come up on power on now and then go out.  
The power light at the bottom appears to be dead.

 

From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.fin...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:39 AM
To: Brad H ; General Discussion: On-Topic 
and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

 

Does it warm up or flood? 

 

"When I got my 4051, on power up there

would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing."


Care to share with the class what you've done so far?

 

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Brad H via cctalk  > wrote:

Hi there,



My go-to guy for CRT stuff has informed me that he has the CRT on my 4051
working and that the tube is good.  When I got my 4051, on power up there
would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing.



Wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to go from here?   I'm picking up
the machine this week and will do some more testing.. hopefully the board
didn't take any damage while he was working on the CRT.



Brad





 

-- 

   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com  

 


 

 

Virus-free.  

 www.avg.com

RE: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

2017-10-03 Thread Brad H via cctalk

Yes before the screen would stay dark until you powered off, then there would 
be a brief flood.  Now it floods and stays on but no text.

From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.fin...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:39 AM
To: Brad H ; General Discussion: On-Topic 
and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

Does it warm up or flood? 

"When I got my 4051, on power up there

would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing."

Care to share with the class what you've done so far?

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Brad H via cctalk  > wrote:

Hi there,

My go-to guy for CRT stuff has informed me that he has the CRT on my 4051
working and that the tube is good.  When I got my 4051, on power up there
would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing.

Wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to go from here?   I'm picking up
the machine this week and will do some more testing.. hopefully the board
didn't take any damage while he was working on the CRT.

Brad

-- 

   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com  

Virus-free.  

 www.avg.com

Re: Tek 4051 semi-repaired

2017-10-03 Thread Ian Finder via cctalk

Does it warm up or flood?

"When I got my 4051, on power up there
would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing."

Care to share with the class what you've done so far?

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Brad H via cctalk 
wrote:

> Hi there,
>
>
>
> My go-to guy for CRT stuff has informed me that he has the CRT on my 4051
> working and that the tube is good.  When I got my 4051, on power up there
> would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
> That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
> anything appearing.
>
>
>
> Wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to go from here?   I'm picking
> up
> the machine this week and will do some more testing.. hopefully the board
> didn't take any damage while he was working on the CRT.
>
>
>
> Brad
>
>

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Tek 4051 semi-repaired

2017-10-03 Thread Brad H via cctalk

Hi there,

 

My go-to guy for CRT stuff has informed me that he has the CRT on my 4051
working and that the tube is good.  When I got my 4051, on power up there
would be no voltage to the motherboard and nothing came up on the screen.
That has been fixed, however we still do not have any kind of prompt or
anything appearing.

 

Wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to go from here?   I'm picking up
the machine this week and will do some more testing.. hopefully the board
didn't take any damage while he was working on the CRT.

 

Brad

Re: Tek 4051 users and replacement for the 405x QIC Tape

2017-10-03 Thread Ian Finder via cctalk

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Randy Dawson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I think he has a few of these left.  The big problem is the RAMPACK
> plastic cases are recycled from old ROMPACKs and these are in short supply.
>
>
> He is looking for a 'Toaster' too.  Can we get a count of active 405x
> users out there, and start a group effort to build, swap, restore 405x
> hardware?
>
>
Were you looking to start a list? A group? A megathread?
Proud owner of a few 4051s and a basket case 4054 reporting in here.

I think Bob R. on the list had done a printable version of the ROMPACK
cases. It may be worth asking him about it, he might be willing to provide
an STL file.

Tek 4051 users and replacement for the 405x QIC Tape

2017-10-03 Thread Randy Dawson via cctalk



One of the Ex-Tek's, Micheal Cranford has designed a modern FLASH based RAMPACK 
for the tape drive, and filled it with most of the known BASIC games.

More significant, Micheal has written FASTGRAPHICS, a replacement for the BASIC 
vector draw functions; 100x increase in performance, in addition to the ability 
to draw non-store vectors.


I think he has a few of these left.  The big problem is the RAMPACK plastic 
cases are recycled from old ROMPACKs and these are in short supply.


He is looking for a 'Toaster' too.  Can we get a count of active 405x users out 
there, and start a group effort to build, swap, restore 405x hardware?


(I got an original Kraft joystick, and starting that project from the 
schematics on bitsavers.)


Randy

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]

On 10/03/2017 05:37 AM, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote:

> fwiw in the late 80s I was the service department at a small PC 
> store. I remember seeing these newfangled drives in Compaq
> computers, but I don't remember exactly when.  Perhaps 88?  Wikipedia
> backs me up that it was Compaq (with WD drives?) as the first large
> customer.
Everyone seems to be calling the Compaq drives "Western Digital".  They
weren't WD--they were CDC Wren II HH drives with a WD controller
embedded.  WD didn't get into the drive business until much, much later.

I went back and checked my documents.   The ATA drive that I had was, in
fact, a Wren II.  For all I know, it was the same one that Compaq put in
its boxes, as I picked it up on the surplus market.

It was not a good drive--it failed within a year or so and I scrapped
it.  I understand that my experience with the drive was not unique.

That's very different from my experience with the FH Wren drives.   I've
still got a SCSI one installed and running in a 386 box.

--Chuck

Re: Tektronix 4050E01

2017-10-03 Thread Randy Dawson via cctalk

Hi Bob,


I have a 4051, in perfect working order.  I would like to buy one of these 
'Toasters' from you.


I could also take your schematic and make more copies of it for others.


What ROMPACKS do you have?


Randy



From: cctalk  on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via 
cctalk 
Sent: Monday, October 2, 2017 8:24 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Tektronix 4050E01

I'm looking for the schematic of a Tektronix 4050E01 ROM expander
(toaster). This is the one that works with either the
Tektronix 4051 or 4052/4054 units. Different than the 4051E01. I have a
few to fix. Anyone have a manual for one that they
could scan?

Thanks,

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
[http://banners.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=pws250=KCASANTA382]

dvq.com
www.dvq.com
Like Microcomputers? Apple 1's? Visit the Microcomputer Museum in Virginia. You 
can send mail to DVQ via: info (at) dvq (dot) com


www.tekmuseum.com
[http://tekmuseum.com/images/tek-museum001002.jpg]

Home [tekmuseum.com]
www.tekmuseum.com
This website has been created with technology from Avanquest Software.


www.decmuseum.org
[http://decmuseum.org/image/obj123geo101pg1p11.jpg]

DEC Computers
www.decmuseum.org
A collection of vintage Digital Equipment Computers. DEC Minicomputers in my 
collection. The collection starts with a "Straight 8", the basis for all later 
PDP-8 ...

Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.



On 10/3/17 8:29 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

> Sounds like a similar system to what Burroughs used on their cassettes; I 
> always thought that they'd be a lot easier to read than the 'normal' formats 
> with embedded clock signals and always intended to try to read some of the 
> tapes I have here some day. 
> 
> May have to move it up a few pages of my to-do list now that you've reminded 
> me, although I doubt that there's much interest 'out there' in 'L' series 
> software...

it would be good to get it archived.

reminds me I have a box of B1900 cold start tapes and a couple of cassette 
drives I should do something with :-(

Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.

2017-10-03 Thread Mike Stein via cctalk


- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.


> 
> 
> On 10/3/17 2:50 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Al is maintaining a set of ROM images for these machines, are tape images 
>> covered somewhere ?
>> Do we have an fixed tape image format, as has been done with Dave's IMD for 
>> floppies ?
> 
> As far as I know, no one has successfully made a copy of a Tek cartridge tape 
> in an image format.
> The tapes use two tracks, one for clock and one for data. Encoding beyond 
> that has not been determined.
> I still have several boxes of these including ones that are supposed to have 
> Battlestar Galatica data
> but I have bigger projects to deal with right now.
--
Sounds like a similar system to what Burroughs used on their cassettes; I 
always thought that they'd be a lot easier to read than the 'normal' formats 
with embedded clock signals and always intended to try to read some of the 
tapes I have here some day. 

May have to move it up a few pages of my to-do list now that you've reminded 
me, although I doubt that there's much interest 'out there' in 'L' series 
software...

m

Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.

2017-10-03 Thread Jos Dreesen via cctalk


On 03.10.2017 16:59, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:



On 10/3/17 2:50 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote:

That "famous" QIC tape unit



Tektronix 405x tapes aren't QIC

They are 3M DC series cartridges, but the encoding is not a QIC standard.




The problems, alas, are the same.

Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.

On 10/3/17 2:50 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote:

> Al is maintaining a set of ROM images for these machines, are tape images 
> covered somewhere  ?
> Do we have an fixed tape image format, as has been done with Dave's IMD for 
> floppies ?

As far as I know, no one has successfully made a copy of a Tek cartridge tape 
in an image format.
The tapes use two tracks, one for clock and one for data. Encoding beyond that 
has not been determined.
I still have several boxes of these including ones that are supposed to have 
Battlestar Galatica data
but I have bigger projects to deal with right now.

Re: That Tek 405x QIC Tape.



On 10/3/17 2:50 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote:
> That "famous" QIC tape unit


Tektronix 405x tapes aren't QIC

They are 3M DC series cartridges, but the encoding is not a QIC standard.

Looking for anyone who may have Commodore 65 info

2017-10-03 Thread Adrian Graham via cctalk

Hi folks,

I realise this is a question that's only applicable to a small number of
people but I'm looking for anyone who may have info or better still PAL
dumps of a Rev3 C65. Back when I got the machine in 2001 there was a couple
of people active in this field, namely Riccardo Rubini and Moise Sunda.

Before I contact every hit that comes up on a google search does anyone
have an up to date email address for either of these people? I've already
talked to CBM luminaries Bo Zimmerman and Cameron Kaiser who are in the
same situation as me with a lack of up to date info.

Any help appreciated!

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
facebook.com/binarydinosaurs

That Tek 405x QIC Tape.

2017-10-03 Thread Jos Dreesen via cctalk


That "famous" QIC tape unit

...has been talked about a lot, still some things are still not clear to me.


Baking : is this a last-resort means of reading some valuable tape, or a means 
to restore them for a further few years of usage ?
I intend to bake mine before usage, although a few unused, still shrinkwrapped, 
tapes seem to be in excellent condition, including tensioning belt.
Those I might try without baking.

The belt : is the elastibands method usable for more than a few reads/writes, 
or is robbing belts from 6150's really the only way ?

Belts seem to come in 2 guises : black belts, often dead and somewhat sticking 
to the magtape itself, and smaller white belts, always broken, and bonded 
firmly to the magnetic coating.
Sadly all my Tek Library and Test tapes are of the latter variant.

Al is maintaining a set of ROM images for these machines, are tape images 
covered somewhere  ?
Do we have an fixed tape image format, as has been done with Dave's IMD for 
floppies ?



Background : currently in the process of restoring both my 4052's.
Have the maintenance manual and spares, so there is hope.

But ideally I would also like to keep using the cartidge drive.
Fool's errant or workable option ?



Jos

Re: OmniUSB - further boards to make

2017-10-03 Thread Marco Rauhut via cctalk


Yes, please... I am also reistered my interest...

Marco


Am 03.10.2017 um 09:17 schrieb Ed via cctalk:

please  send into  to us as well...
thanks ed#
  
  
In a message dated 10/3/2017 12:12:53 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:



On 10/1/2017 4:17 PM, SYLVIA MCMAHON via cctalk  wrote:

Hello Philip,
I registered interest in purchasing a  Omnibus USB interface some time

ago. Is this project still alive?

  Regards,   Baz

Sent from my iPad

I forwarded  Philipps information to this person  offline.
thanks
Jim

Univac

2017-10-03 Thread Evan Koblentz via cctalk

Here's a phone video from a recent repair workshop at the VCFed museum 
in New Jersey. Bill Dromgoole is demonstrating progress on one of the 
tape drives for our Sperry-Rand Univac 1219B mainframe (circa mid-1960s).


https://www.instagram.com/p/BZxg7e7DJ3r/


Evan Koblentz, director
Vintage Computer Federation
a 501(c)3 educational non-profit

e...@vcfed.org
(646) 546-

www.vcfed.org
facebook.com/vcfederation
twitter.com/vcfederation

Re: OmniUSB - further boards to make

2017-10-03 Thread Ed via cctalk

please  send into  to us as well...
thanks ed#

In a message dated 10/3/2017 12:12:53 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On 10/1/2017 4:17 PM, SYLVIA MCMAHON via cctalk  wrote:
> Hello Philip,
> I registered interest in purchasing a  Omnibus USB interface some time 
ago. Is this project still alive?
>  Regards,   Baz
>
> Sent from my iPad
I forwarded  Philipps information to this person  offline.
thanks
Jim

Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]