Re: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Mar-02, at 2:50 PM, ste...@malikoff.com wrote:
> At this point I realised what I was looking at. It was a Foxboro Fox 2 
> computer, essentially a rebadged PDP-11/20.


Remarkable find that - a Fox-2-badged 11 - amazing to come across.
Great rescue, although too bad the racks weren't included as that's part of the 
Foxboro packaging.

If you've seen the CHM brochure of the Fox-1 previously, just ran across a 
great pic of a Fox-1 system with a great view of the X-shaped CPU:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/64900616@N04/23796530491


On 2016-Mar-02, at 6:08 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called
> "greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name
> comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines..

.. I suspect you meant earlier machines there - the 15,19,26 and so on of the 
1920-40s were the machines with the green keys.

I've worked on a 33 and a couple of 28s to get them going but can't claim to be 
an expert.
Have a 15, two 14s (tape-printers), a Lorenz (19 knockoff), military TT-4A, and 
a 26 that need restoration - someday when I have opportunity.

Indeed it would be sad to see the 35 scrapped. The oil does help protect them 
when stored in a poor environment so the mech may well be OK or restorable.

Cables

[jwsmobile]

Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies?  I'm in need of some 40, 
50 and various other cables and connectors.


I need some specifically for dec systems so those would be even better.

The most urgent need is cables for the PDP 8/A front panel cabling. They 
are all 40 pin.  I've got a unit with the programmers panel, so need 
cables for it and for the basic power panel.


thanks
Jim

Re: New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing

[Chuck Guzis]

On 03/02/2016 09:56 PM, Jason T wrote:

That would be the Illinois Institute of Technology and their "Remote
User Shared Hardware" time-sharing scheme on the IBM 360, circa July
1967.  Check out the prices - even per-minute pricing on core!

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/IIT


That'd be IITRI,  IIT's Research Institute, not IIT Proper (the school), 
who used a 360/40 to run their student timesharing (remote ASR33 TTYs) 
in a DOS/360 foreground partition implementing the IITRAN language. 
IIRC, it was a 128K machine.  I don't recall what was on IITRI's 360/50. 
 Background was also available for student use via a 2501 card reader.


--Chuck

Re: 1950s TV computers

[Jon Elson]

On 03/02/2016 11:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 03/02/2016 08:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:


Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video.



Sharp eyes, Bob!  I had completely ignore the intros by 
Truman Bradley as phonied-up props.  But you're right--it 
is, in fact,a G-15.


One thing that I noted was that the word "transistor" 
didn't seem to creep into the scripts until the 1956 season.


I think electrical engineers knew transistors were the next 
big thing, possibly some of them had a few samples that they 
were starting to work with, but probably few had really much 
experience with them in 1956.  Certainly, IBM and other 
computer companies were hard at work developing 
transistorized computers.  IBM installed the first 7090 in 
November 1959, and only ANNOUNCED the 1401 and 1620 in late 
1959.  So, they really didn't have any transistor machines 
installed in 1956.  The Philco S-1000 and S-2000 were 
supposed to be the first mass-produced transistorized "real" 
computers, in 1957.


Jon

Re: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU

[Alexandre Souza]

Nice photos!


2016-03-02 23:08 GMT-03:00 Pete Lancashire :

> If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or
> other make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can
> and many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in
> a 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed.
>
> Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called
> "greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name
> comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines.. And some
> on the list can give good advice, some not so much. There are members who's
> job was to service these beasts. I have had machines brought to me that
> were basically destroyed and would have
> been easy fixes if left alone before hand.
>
> Please never turn one on unless they have been checked out.
>
> Sorry to butt-in but hate to see them get messed up.
>
> -pete
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <
> captainkirk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2 March 2016 at 17:50,   wrote:
> > > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to
> > the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was
> > > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of
> time
> > to load the equipment before I had to
> > > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional
> I/O
> > Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I
> > > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I
> don't
> > think this machine had them, only the
> > > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric.
> > >
> > You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could
> > probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its
> > current state (I exaggerate somewhat).
> >
> > The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33
> > machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR
> > or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely
> > worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy
> > than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the
> > older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit).
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Christian
> > --
> > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
> > STCKON08DS0
> > Contact information available upon request.
> >
> >
>

Re: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU

[Pete Lancashire]

If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or
other make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can
and many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in
a 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed.

Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called
"greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name
comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines.. And some
on the list can give good advice, some not so much. There are members who's
job was to service these beasts. I have had machines brought to me that
were basically destroyed and would have
been easy fixes if left alone before hand.

Please never turn one on unless they have been checked out.

Sorry to butt-in but hate to see them get messed up.

-pete



On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <
captainkirk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 March 2016 at 17:50,   wrote:
> > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to
> the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was
> > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time
> to load the equipment before I had to
> > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O
> Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I
> > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't
> think this machine had them, only the
> > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric.
> >
> You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could
> probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its
> current state (I exaggerate somewhat).
>
> The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33
> machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR
> or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely
> worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy
> than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the
> older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit).
>
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
> --
> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
> STCKON08DS0
> Contact information available upon request.
>
>

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Joshua Stetson]

I've been wanting to get some reproduction switches for my 8/e, simply
because I have a blue panel, but the orange switches. I would love to get a
set of the blue paddles.

I would go in on a set if they were injection molded or cast; unless
they're some of the higher resolution eboxy based prints.

I have thought about just making a silicone mold of an existing switch and
attempting to cast some myself, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Anders Nelson 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I found switch levers and a mounting frame design (
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted
> with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable.
>
> Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection
> molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to
> just paint a 3D print of these?
>
> Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would
> love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my
> emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit
> micro as opposed to the HD6120.
>
> I await your thoughts!
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>

Re: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control)

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Martin Meiner: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:18 AM
I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's 
M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you.

Could someone point me to the right direction?


Looking through my stuff, I fail to find an M865 or any documentation
specific to it.

On the other hand, my impression was (and is) that the M865 and the
M8650 are just two versions of the same basic KL8E design.

If you want to send me photos, I can compare them to the M8650,
and perhaps highlight the changes.

   Vince 

Re: Mobile Web Site Technology to Revive Old Browers

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:39 PM, william degnan 
wrote:

> I noticed today that web sites that are screen width responsive and device
> independent are also "responsive" to really old browsers like Netscape 2.0
> running on a Windows 3.11 box.  The whole push to make web sites mobile
> friendly has had the unintended consequence of making Windows 3.11 web
> browsing a little more practical than before.  The only issue I found is
> with javascript, one has best results if turned off entirely.  Sites load
> pretty quick as a lot of the overhead if not transmitted by the server,
> perceiving the download is to a mobile or limited device.
>
> If you get the chance and run an older browser on an older OS my site is a
> pretty good example of a modern site design that works in Windows 3.11 /
> Netscape or Alpha / Mosaic etc.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
The only problem is that some sites are pretty much useless without
Javascript enabled.  Unless it's static content, there's usually some sort
of dynamic behavior, even in rendering.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing

[Jason T]

That would be the Illinois Institute of Technology and their "Remote
User Shared Hardware" time-sharing scheme on the IBM 360, circa July
1967.  Check out the prices - even per-minute pricing on core!

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/IIT

Enjoy

-j

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Josh Dersch]

On 3/2/16 9:00 AM, Christian Groessler wrote:


On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote:
Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was 
unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high 
color" VGA mode.  From the README.TXT:


"Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!)
(Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it)
(This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's
 graphics.  Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)"




Do you have a link to this version?

regards,
chris




It can be found here:

http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_v0.3

Interestingly, the Wiki has a link to an article discussing the "Sierra 
Hi-Color DAC" I didn't notice last time I visited.  It's from the early 
90s, and references the ET4000 specifically, I'll have to track one down 
and see if it works.  I used to have scads of these things but I've 
parted with a lot of my old PC gear...


- Josh

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Rod Smallwood]

On 02/03/2016 23:36, Glen Slick wrote:

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad
 wrote:

I naturally suggest mine, available at
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php


What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :)
In between my adventures in Panel Land I also looked at PDP-8 switches 
and other items that could be 3d printed. I came up with the following:


1,  For replacing one or two missing switch levers 3d printing 
is ideal.


2,  I believe the plastic to be ABS

3. For example LEGO bricks were ABS, They are now changing to a 
greener type of plastic.


4. Matching the colo(u)r might  prove interesting.

5. For those who need larger quantities then good old injection 
moulding is still the best way to go.


6. Mould making costs used to be high but modern CNC machines 
can do the job in short order.


7. The split line on a PDP-8 lever is clearly visible. This 
shows they were made in a two part mould.


8, How many per mould were there I don't know but say ten would 
not be beyond even small machines


9. As soon as I get to a ship from stock situation on panels I 
might  revisit switches.


10. And finally .. would I trust the Chinese?  Probably not!

Rod

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Josh Dersch]

On 3/2/16 10:45 AM, et...@757.org wrote:

I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC)
and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled.  I
cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing
anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of 
the

era since ID programmed in support for it.  I'm guessing it was cut
because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked
awful, even with lots of colors...)


VGA has analog RGB signals.
VGA card uses DAC chip, 8 bit would give the 256 color and 16 bit 
would give the 65536, and 24 bit would give the 16.7 million color 
depth. RAM was a big issue as well on these cards, since more memory 
needed to store color info.


The one thing I would wonder is -- even if some video card had the 
ability to sacrifice resolution for color depth (reconfigurable 
RAMDAC?) -- were the textures and tiles in Doom supplied in true 
color/16 bit color or were they 256 colors?
The graphics were only 256 colors, but the engine provided for varying 
lighting levels per-sector so having more colors would allow for 
better-looking rendering.


- Josh



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: 1950s TV computers

[Chuck Guzis]

On 03/02/2016 08:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:


Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video.



Sharp eyes, Bob!  I had completely ignore the intros by Truman Bradley 
as phonied-up props.  But you're right--it is, in fact,a G-15.


One thing that I noted was that the word "transistor" didn't seem to 
creep into the scripts until the 1956 season.


--Chuck

Re: 1950s TV computers

[Jon Elson]

On 03/02/2016 10:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:

On 3/2/2016 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:



Here's another one from 1956:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE




Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video.


Yup, absolutely, that is a G15.

Jon

Re: 1950s TV computers

[Bob Rosenbloom]

On 3/2/2016 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've been having fun looking at TV programs that I watched when the 
family had a 17" monochrome RCA set.  At any rate, here's one such 
about a guy who gets shocked by a computer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-pfWhehSB4

Note that, about 3:20 in, the guy doing the troubleshooting on the 
system pulls a faulty tube and gives it to his companion for 
replacement.  "12AY7" is what he says, but hands the other guy an 
octal tube--the 12AY7 is a 9-pin sub-miniature.  (TV had goofs even 
then). Other than the IBM Model B electric typewriters, there doesn't 
seem to be much to see.  From 1955.



Here's another one from 1956:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE

This involves a mechanical translating machine that's been adapted to 
diagnose and prescribe treatment for diseases.  There, you can see the 
same IBM typewriters, as well a couple of keypunches (IBM 024/6?) and 
bunches of tape drives that I don't recognize. "Memory coils", anyone? 
 The strange thing is that years later, I met up with a fellow who had 
worked with Gerald Salton on the nascent SMART system that, I believe, 
eventually morphed into MEDLARS.


Stuff from a time when men wore hats and women wore dresses.

--Chuck


Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video.

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

Re: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11?

[Alan Hightower]

 

In the October'85 "UNIX System V Known Problems List", which is
basically a printing of filed bug reports against System V, it lists a
'DEC' version of these SVR releases: 

SVR1.0V1 (5.0)(1.0) - Initial Release 

SVR1.1V2 (5.0.5)(1.1) - Maintenance Release 

SVR1.2V3 (1.2) - Maintenance Release 

SVR2.0V1 (2.0) - Feature Release 

SVR2.0V2 (2.0P) - Paging Release 

Each bug's machine type applicability is matched against 3B20, 3B20A,
3B5, 3B2, PDP, and VAX enumerations. I see a few places where a few
VAX11 models are called out explicitly but none specifically applying to
PDP machines. So apparently there was a 16 and 32 bit version of SVR2
supporting some versions of both PDP-11 and VAX-11 machines.
Unfortunately I don't have the entire manual scanned in yet so I can't
search for specifics. But it seems rumors of a pink unicorn abound. 

-Alan 

In 2016-03-02 04:39, E. Groenenberg wrote: 

> Hi.
> 
> When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information
> of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base.
> 
> I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1
> for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70).
> On www.archive.org [1] I did find both the System II and System 5 user
> manuals, and the S5 manuals does mention the 11/70.
> 
> So, did it indeed exists and if so, is there someone who can help me
> maybe with an image to run under SIMH?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ed
> --
> Ik email, dus ik besta.
 

Links:
--
[1] http://www.archive.org

1950s TV computers

[Chuck Guzis]

I've been having fun looking at TV programs that I watched when the 
family had a 17" monochrome RCA set.  At any rate, here's one such about 
a guy who gets shocked by a computer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-pfWhehSB4

Note that, about 3:20 in, the guy doing the troubleshooting on the 
system pulls a faulty tube and gives it to his companion for 
replacement.  "12AY7" is what he says, but hands the other guy an octal 
tube--the 12AY7 is a 9-pin sub-miniature.  (TV had goofs even then). 
Other than the IBM Model B electric typewriters, there doesn't seem to 
be much to see.  From 1955.



Here's another one from 1956:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE

This involves a mechanical translating machine that's been adapted to 
diagnose and prescribe treatment for diseases.  There, you can see the 
same IBM typewriters, as well a couple of keypunches (IBM 024/6?) and 
bunches of tape drives that I don't recognize.  "Memory coils", anyone? 
 The strange thing is that years later, I met up with a fellow who had 
worked with Gerald Salton on the nascent SMART system that, I believe, 
eventually morphed into MEDLARS.


Stuff from a time when men wore hats and women wore dresses.

--Chuck

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Rich Alderson]

From: Tedd Martin Vazquez
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:50 PM

>>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
>>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
>>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

>>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my
>>> life that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

>>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly,
>>> how to get this software running in the emulator.

> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html

> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just
> not getting how it works?

OK.  If you followed those instructions, you *have* installed ITS.

The minimal system created by following that set of instructions is just
enough to have something on which to install other software, such as
TECO.  There is nothing there yet which is particularly useful to a
beginner on ITS.

When I mentioned earlier that finding installation files for ITS was
more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, that's what I was talking
about.  The old archives have been taken offline, have been offline for
years, and are unlikely ever to come back.  There were a lot of files
containing personal data that was fine in the days of the ARPANET
(before the Internet came along), but which very few would care to have
brought to the light of day now.

I don't want to rain on your parade.  ITS is a lot of fun to hack at.
It just isn't easy to find anything to do on it any more.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 2 March 2016 at 17:50,   wrote:
> The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to the 
> ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was
> wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time to 
> load the equipment before I had to
> head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O 
> Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I
> would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't 
> think this machine had them, only the
> ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric.
>
You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could
probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its
current state (I exaggerate somewhat).

The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33
machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR
or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely
worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy
than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the
older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit).


Cheers,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Glen Slick: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 3:36 PM

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

I naturally suggest mine, available at
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php


What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :)


I had to Google what those were, being basically a PDP-8 geek.
(I found a set for sale on eBay.)  Those do look like something
that shouldn’t be too hard to print.  I don't know the magic
encoding (or indeed anything else about them), though.

   Vince 

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Glen Slick]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad
 wrote:
>
> I naturally suggest mine, available at
> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php
>

What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :)

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Jarratt 
wrote:

> >
> > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> > http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
> >
> > Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
> > getting how it works?
> >
> > Thank you¡
>
>
> I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
I've installed ITS successfully in the past, using those notes, so it can
be done (unless something's changed).  However, ITS is a somewhat odd beast
- its user shell is the debugger, for example.  I think suggestions that
you start with TOPS-20 are good advice.  It will feel much more familiar,
especially if you've used something like RSX-11 or VMS.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 21:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Pdp-10 emulation
> 
> Robert Jarratt:
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> >> Martin Vazquez
> >> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
> >> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> >> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
> >>
> >> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
> >> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
> >> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.
> >>
> >> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
> >> that I get in touch with something related to old computing.
> >>
> >> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
> >> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly,
> >> how to get this software running in the emulator.
> >>
> >> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
> >>
> >> Hope my question doesn't bother people, thanks :) Tedd Vazquez.
> >>
> >> --
> >>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> >> Version: 3.1
> >> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@
> s:
> >> a?
> >> C>$
> >> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O
> !M
> >> !V
> >> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> >> DI++(+++)
> >> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> >> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
> >
> > I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with
> software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> 
> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
> 
> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
> getting how it works?
> 
> Thank you¡
> 
> --
>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.1
> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
> a?
> C>$
> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
> !V
> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> DI++(+++)
> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this.

Regards

Rob

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Anders Nelson: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 11:16 AM

I found switch levers and a mounting frame design (
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted
with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable.


I naturally suggest mine, available at 
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php


I've done some work to make the fit as close as I can to the 
original handles.



Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection
molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to
just paint a 3D print of these?


I've ordered handles in "strong and flexible, polished", from 
Shapeways.com.  They aren't cheap, but they're easy and they 
do work well.


I've had good luck just spray painting them with an appropriate 
paint.  Shapeways' color choices for dyed parts are OK, but not 
particularly close to the original colors.  If you decide to go with 
the dyes, you'll want to use urethane floor polish or the like to 
seal the pores and provide a satin finish.  If you don't seal the 
pores, they pick up dirt, and are a bear to keep clean.


Finding the switch bodies to put them on is challenging.


Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would
love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my
emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit
micro as opposed to the HD6120.


If you want the actual 8/E PCB design, I've re-drawn the bulb PCB at
http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/8ePanel/

Here's the big list of other PCBs I've drawn, for what that's worth:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/boards.php

If you're wanting a panel for a modern micro, I concur with the 
recommendation or Oscar's 8/I replica as a starting point.  Interfacing 
the pi to something behind Rod's front panel artwork would be pretty 
cool.  (Though I'm a bigger fan of the 8/I panel, myself.)


   Vince 

Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU

[steven]

Well, it started with 'Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU'...
A few weeks ago you saw some poor quality photos Jay posted from someone who 
had found a PDP-11 of some sort.
It seems no-one could identify it or the ancillary equipment at the time. As it 
happened to be located here
in Oz, and only in the next state, I thought it was worth a gamble on going to 
rescue it even though it was
hundreds of kays/miles away and would mean a few days driving.

So I took last Thursday and Friday off work to drive down in my ute from 
Brisbane to the gear's location. I drove
the inland highway and just camped along the way each evening. The weather was 
very warm and pleasant. During the
evenings the mozzies were out in force, biting.

Arriving at the location first thing Saturday morning (as I had camped the 
second night nearby) I was shown the
horse stables where the gear was stored. It was near an entrance and the top of 
the rack was covered with a tarp.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_01.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_02.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_03.jpg

The rack was sitting directly on the dirt floor. The stables hadn't been used 
for decades as such and there was a
lot of mouse and other animal droppings on everything. The front of the rack 
was against some horse tying-up posts
so we got to work levering it away from them to get to the front, for which I 
had brought gloves.

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_04.jpg

At this point I realised what I was looking at. It was a Foxboro Fox 2 
computer, essentially a rebadged PDP-11/20.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_05.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_06.jpg

A while ago I had by chance downloaded and looked at the very same brochure for 
this machine, I think perhaps
because it had been mentioned here. So I was able to identify it immediately. 
This is that brochure:
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox2-30.1972.102646170.pdf

The cabinet was about two and a half 19" rack-widths wide, painted lime green 
and with custom industrial control
equipment to the left and the computer, paper tape reader and expansion box in 
the right. The half width section
contained a series of power supplies. almost all cables had Winchester MRAC 
connectors on them (visible in the
original photos, and I happened to have a need for some for my Diablos).

There were no peripherals of any sort apart from the paper tape reader and the 
custom A-D I/O. No disc drives nor
the fabulous drum shown in the brochure.

At the bottom of the computer rack section there was a very sad PDP-11/05, 
missing its console, and full of mud.
Being at the bottom it had been flooded over the years and was silted up. It 
had a cable to the BA-11 expansion
cabinet.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_07.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_08.jpg

I started by removing the 11/05, as there was a (very very) slim chance I might 
be able to use it for some spares,
and I had a need for the BC-5 Power Control Unit in the chassis anyway. This 
machine was not on rack slides but
just lying on the bottom on the dirt. Surprisingly the paper label on the top 
panel was still partly legible,
considering the immersion.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_12.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_13.jpg

Next I worked on removing the BA-11. It was pretty much empty with only a small 
Unibus backplane.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_14.jpg
After that I attended to the Fox 2, and before long after a lot of sweating we 
had the machine out and ready to
load onto my ute.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_09.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_10.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_11.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_15.jpg

Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each side 
slide up to reveal the rack mounting
screws. Onto the ute it went.

There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control  
equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter
in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the smaller Flip 
Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D
and Flip Chips.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg

There is an identical DEC A-D on eBay at the moment which shows you what it's 
like:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-A-D-Converter-/141324598814

The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger 

Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11

[Rod Smallwood]

Hi Guys
  Having got  8/e (A & B)  plus 8/f and  8/m into 
production its time I made a few comments.


The aim has always been to reproduce the original panels using the 
process DEC used all those years ago.
Needless to say we had to go through the learning curve with only 
photographs, scans and one 8/m original

panel to go on.

In the interests of origiality I have kept what we used call 'features' 
as found in the documentation and the sample we had.
I'm trying to reproduce the original, not produce an improved or fixed 
version.


The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as  follows:

1. The original versions would have been drawn twice full size by 
hand on matt paper in indian ink.
 One sheet per colo(u)r would have been requred. They would 
then have used a process camera

 to reduce to one to one positive masters on clear acetate film.
 The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked 
in no longer exist.


  I used to do just that in the early '70's but whats weird is 
where I worked is less than 50 yards

  from the silk screen studio doing the work now.

  Now I use Inkscape and its layers to do the same thing. The 
screeners have an Epson printer
  the size of a piano to print my layers in black onto clear 
film. After that the process is the same as it was.
  They take a fine meshed cloth streched onto a frame. Its 
coated (by hand) with a photo sensitive
   emulsion, when dry it gets exposed through the master using 
a UV light source.
  The the parts proteced by black on the master are water 
soluable and get washed out  and hence

  let the ink through. So one screen per layer is required


2.  DEC would have printed the images first and routed or milled the 
holes using some kind jig later.
  As long as the hole stayed inside the white line that was 
deemed to be OK.

  We drill (laser cut) first and screen afterwards.

Regards
Rod

Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest

[Jay West]

I restored my 8E cpu to running condition years ago, but never got around to
the rest of the rack. Mainly to reclaim floor space, I'm getting the
peripherals I always meant to go with that system into the dual rack and
wanted to ask a few questions...

 

Dual bay H967, items to go in are PDP-8E, PC04, TU56, RK05, and possibly an
RX01/02.

Pictures at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/25079374039

and

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/25152416940

 

But the rack has two nice looking doors, example:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/22605790200

(the TU10 and TM11 is being traded off, so the left rack in that picture is
an empty one now but I still have both "doors").

 

I'd like to keep the two doors, but will not be able to fit all the devices
above in. May just hook up an "external" RX02 (I have one in a DEC
roll-around cart), or perhaps one would fit behind one of those mustard
colored doors, I dunno. Hate covering a nice peripheral up behind a door.
Might put everything in the left rack, get rid of the bottom door, and just
use standard filler panels. Current plan is cpu in right bay, pc04
underneath. Left bay would be TU56 & RK05 (and RX02 if I lose the door).
What would you all do for something that is as period-correct as possible?

 

I looked closely at the sloped panels at the top of each cabinet. It looks
like the yellow trim/logo is actually a plate that slides into the bezel.
The one on the right is just yellow, but has a white border screened on it.
The one on the left has no plate, so it's just "white". What is the chance
that anyone has one of those yellow plates, perhaps one that actually says
"DEC" on it? I'd be highly interested. Failing that, at least one that
matches the other (yellow with a white border). Anyone have one laying
around?

 

I'd have never thought I could run out of official DEC slides, but it
appears that I have (at least for older DEC items). I need to rack the RK05
and the TU56. On the RK05 - does anyone have a spare set of slides or can I
definitely just use RL02 slides (which I have lots of)? I have the wide grey
inner slides on the RK05 but no outers and I noticed just one of the inner
slides has a gold L-catch release on it so I'm wondering if there's anything
special about RK05 slides. 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

J

 

 

 

 

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Rich Alderson]

From: Robert Jarratt
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:02 PM

> From: Tedd Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36

>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
>> that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
>> get this software running in the emulator.

> I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with
> software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ 

Specifically, you want the following tapes:

BB-D867E-BM  TOPS-20 V4.1 2020 INSTL
BB-D868E-BM  T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 1/2
BB-V895A-BM  T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 2/2

You also want to pick up the Software Installation Guide from
Bitsavers.org.  It's the only file in the following directory:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS-20/V4.1_Feb83/ 

If you want real EMACS and the associated TECO, that's also available at
Trailing Edge.

Do not accept shortcuts.  Read the manual, then worry about attaching
the tape images to SimH.

TOPS-20 v4.1 is the last to run on the KS-10 (which is the only member
of the PDP-10 family that SimH emulates), so don't bother with any later
versions.

NB: You can also get Tops-10, but it's not nearly as much fun as
TOPS-20.  ITS used to be more readily available, but it's hard to get
hold of these days and you really need to know how the architecture
works before diving into it.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Robert Jarratt:
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
>> Martin Vazquez
>> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
>>
>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with
>> the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of
>> the GNU project, so is quite charming.
>>
>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I 
>> get in
>> touch with something related to old computing.
>>
>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
>> get this software running in the emulator.
>>
>> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
>>
>> Hope my question doesn't bother people,
>> thanks :)
>> Tedd Vazquez.
>>
>> --
>>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
>> Version: 3.1
>> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
>> a?
>> C>$
>> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
>> !V
>> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
>> DI++(+++)
>> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
>> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
> 
> I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software 
> are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 

Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html

Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
getting how it works?

Thank you¡

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
> 
> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with
> the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of
> the GNU project, so is quite charming.
> 
> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I 
> get in
> touch with something related to old computing.
> 
> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
> get this software running in the emulator.
> 
> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
> 
> Hope my question doesn't bother people,
> thanks :)
> Tedd Vazquez.
> 
> --
>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.1
> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
> a?
> C>$
> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
> !V
> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> DI++(+++)
> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software 
are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/

Regards

Rob

Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control)

[Martin Meiner]

Hi guys...
I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's 
M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you. 
Could someone point me to the right direction? 

Thanks a lot, 
Martin

Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around
with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the
ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how
to get this software running in the emulator.

I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.

Hope my question doesn't bother people,
thanks :)
Tedd Vazquez.

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

Mobile Web Site Technology to Revive Old Browers

[william degnan]

I noticed today that web sites that are screen width responsive and device
independent are also "responsive" to really old browsers like Netscape 2.0
running on a Windows 3.11 box.  The whole push to make web sites mobile
friendly has had the unintended consequence of making Windows 3.11 web
browsing a little more practical than before.  The only issue I found is
with javascript, one has best results if turned off entirely.  Sites load
pretty quick as a lot of the overhead if not transmitted by the server,
perceiving the download is to a mobile or limited device.

If you get the chance and run an older browser on an older OS my site is a
pretty good example of a modern site design that works in Windows 3.11 /
Netscape or Alpha / Mosaic etc.

Bill

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]

[Warner Losh]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Robert Jarratt  wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
> > degnan
> > Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > 
> > Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming
> [was
> > RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development
> > machine)]
> >
> > On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain"  wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> > >>
> > >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much.  I was simply astounded
> > >>> at
> > the
> > >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was
> > >>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not
> > >> simple
> > greed.
> > >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party)
> > offered
> > >> the book for, say, $5.  Another third party scans Amazon for such
> > >> books,
> > and
> > >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer)
> > >> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which
> > >> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to
> > >> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit.  The problem comes when a third
> > >> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as
> > >> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for
> it and
> > pocket $1 profit.
> > >>
> > >>Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for
> > $1500.
> > >
> > >
> > > Or more:
> > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
> > >
> > >>
> > >>-spc (Who knows?  If you keep searching, you might find the
> original
> > >> seller selling it for $5 ... )
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find.
>
> I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-programming/dp/B0007AJF54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1456948533=8-1=singer+decsystem.
> This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I
> must have used other resources to help me along that I no longer recall.
> The book is available at a much more reasonable price than the Gorin book
> (which I don't have).
>

There's at least two others available from Amazon US for < US$15.

Warner

RE: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
> degnan
> Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was
> RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development
> machine)]
> 
> On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain"  wrote:
> >
> > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> >>
> >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much.  I was simply astounded
> >>> at
> the
> >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was
> >>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy.
> >>
> >>
> >>I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not
> >> simple
> greed.
> >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party)
> offered
> >> the book for, say, $5.  Another third party scans Amazon for such
> >> books,
> and
> >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer)
> >> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which
> >> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to
> >> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit.  The problem comes when a third
> >> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as
> >> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and
> pocket $1 profit.
> >>
> >>Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for
> $1500.
> >
> >
> > Or more:
> > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358
> > etc.
> >
> > Remind me why HFT is a great idea...
> >
> >>
> >>-spc (Who knows?  If you keep searching, you might find the original
> >> seller selling it for $5 ... )
> >>
> >
> 
> I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find.

I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer: 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-programming/dp/B0007AJF54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8=1456948533=8-1=singer+decsystem.
 This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I must 
have used other resources to help me along that I no longer recall. The book is 
available at a much more reasonable price than the Gorin book (which I don't 
have).

Regards

Rob

Re: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Don North]

On 3/2/2016 11:16 AM, Anders Nelson wrote:

I found switch levers and a mounting frame design (
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted
with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable.

Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection
molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to
just paint a 3D print of these?

Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would
love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my
emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit
micro as opposed to the HD6120.

I await your thoughts!


Have you seen this: http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!pidp-8/cbie

It might just satisfy your 'need' (and there are a lot more blinkin' lights on 
the 8i then on the 8e).


If this is not quite right, the basic design may make a good jumping off point 
to get to an 8e variation.


Oscar's design is a scaled (~2/3) configuration, so it is not an 'exact' replica 
per se. There is another
project in the works to create exact PDP-8e/f/m etc replica front panels (Rob 
Smallwood IIRC) but
I believe that is the acrylic panel only, nothing else. You need to supply all 
the other 8e parts yourself.


Don

PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB?

[Anders Nelson]

Hi all,

I found switch levers and a mounting frame design (
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted
with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable.

Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection
molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to
just paint a 3D print of these?

Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would
love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my
emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit
micro as opposed to the HD6120.

I await your thoughts!

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

RE: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]

[Rich Alderson]

From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alan Perry
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 7:22 PM

> I was one of the first outside people to get an account on LCM's Toad, but
> one day I found my account was gone, so I have been doing -20 work on SIMH
> since then.


 toad-2a at Living Computer Museum, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(110131)-1


WELCOME TO LIVING COMPUTER MUSEUM'S TOAD-2 SYSTEM RUNNING TOPS-20!


PLEASE NOTE that closing a terminal window or program DOES NOT log
you off of the system.  You must use the LOGOUT or KILL command at
the @ prompt before ending the terminal program to log out.


@finger perry
ALANPAlan Perry   ALANP not logged in
Last login Thu 3-May-2012 1:20PM

No new mail, never read

[No plan]

@



Your account is right where you left it.  (OK, a year ago we migrated from
the Toad-1 to a Toad-2 to save wear and tear on the 20 year old SCSI disk,
but no accounts were lost.)



Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11?

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-03-02 12:20 PM, Christian Corti wrote:

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, E. Groenenberg wrote:

When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information
of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base.

I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1
for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70).


I have original distribution tapes of AT UNIX System V - Release 2.0
for the PDP-11 including sources :-) The distribution appears to be from
1984.


Sounds like something that would be good to have archived and accessible :-)

--Toby



Christian

Re: Techno-savvy...

[Ian S. King]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 6:22 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:

> "Or "the family member you go to when you can't print"."
>
> A functional niche definition, for sure. "When you can't get your email" is
> equivalent.
>

Involuntary Helpdesk.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[ethan]

I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC)
and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled.  I
cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing
anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the
era since ID programmed in support for it.  I'm guessing it was cut
because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked
awful, even with lots of colors...)


VGA has analog RGB signals.
VGA card uses DAC chip, 8 bit would give the 256 color and 16 bit would 
give the 65536, and 24 bit would give the 16.7 million color depth. RAM 
was a big issue as well on these cards, since more memory needed to store 
color info.


The one thing I would wonder is -- even if some video card had the ability 
to sacrifice resolution for color depth (reconfigurable RAMDAC?) -- were 
the textures and tiles in Doom supplied in true color/16 bit color or were 
they 256 colors?


--
Ethan O'Toole

PDP8 front panel - Shipping.

[Rod Smallwood]

Hi Guys
   I have now seen the production batch of 8/e A and B. panels.
They will ship next week after inspection and packing.  8/f and 8/m will 
be next up.


If you have placed an order for any of the above please confirm your 
shipping address.


When I  switched to the  textured front I ordered a few more blank 
panels. Depending on

the yeild after final inspection there may be a few extras available.

Regards

Rod

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Robert Feldman]

>Message: 12
>Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:30:27 -0800
>From: Josh Dersch 
>Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?
>
>Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was unearthed
>(dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high color" VGA mode.
>From the README.TXT:
>
 >"Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!)
> (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it)
> (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's
>  graphics.  Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)"
>
>I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC)
>and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled.  I
>cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing
>anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the
>era since ID programmed in support for it.  I'm guessing it was cut
>because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked
>awful, even with lots of colors...)
>
>Does this odd video mode ring any bells with anyone out there?  Any idea
>what hardware to look for that might support it?  At this point I'm more
>curious about the actual hardware than getting this pre-alpha to run
>with it...
>
>- Josh

Try sending a message to Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org). 
He has done a lot of work with old PC graphics modes and might know about this 
mode.

Bob

Re: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11?

[Christian Corti]

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, E. Groenenberg wrote:

When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information
of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base.

I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1
for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70).


I have original distribution tapes of AT UNIX System V - Release 2.0 for 
the PDP-11 including sources :-) The distribution appears to be from 1984.


Christian

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Ryan K. Brooks]

On 3/2/16 11:00 AM, Christian Groessler wrote:


On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote:
Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was 
unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high 
color" VGA mode.  From the README.TXT:


"Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!)
(Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it)
(This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's
 graphics.  Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)"

How about asking Carmack on twitter?

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Christian Groessler]

On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote:
Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was 
unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high 
color" VGA mode.  From the README.TXT:


"Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!)
(Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it)
(This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's
 graphics.  Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)"




Do you have a link to this version?

regards,
chris

Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11?

[E. Groenenberg]

Hi.

When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information
of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base.

I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1
for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70).
On www.archive.org I did find both the System II and System 5 user
manuals, and the S5 manuals does mention the 11/70.

So, did it indeed exists and if so, is there someone who can help me
maybe with an image to run under SIMH?

Regards,

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.

Re: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode?

[Ryan Eisworth]

Have you tried on a Tseng ET4000, Video 7, or SpeedStar 24X? No idea if those 
will run it though I have a 24X at my disposal so I can check in a bit. I 
believe they all have high color or true color RAMDACs though.

On another note… a while back I read an article that said John Carmack (one of 
the Doom developers) is wrote Quake on a 28-inch 16:9 CRT made by Silicon 
Graphics/Intergraph that was capable of running at 2042x1152. See: 


The workstation next to the pictured monitor appears to be also by 
SGI/Intergraph, and looks similar to the Interserve 80, though the Pentium II 
was not out yet in 1995 so it is likely an older model: 


I’ve often wondered about computational power might be in that unit in 
mid/early 1995. The Pentium Pro had not been released yet, and I know 
Intergraph shipped multiprocessor Pentium Pro workstations, but prior to that 
if it is an x86-based machine, I don’t think it could have been faster than the 
200 MHz P54CS.

Regards,
Ryan

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> 
> Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was unearthed 
> (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high color" VGA mode.  From 
> the README.TXT:
> 
>"Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!)
>(Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it)
>(This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's
> graphics.  Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)"
> 
> I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) and 
> they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled.  I cannot for 
> the life of me find a reference to this mode existing anywhere, but I assume 
> it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the era since ID programmed in 
> support for it.  I'm guessing it was cut because nothing else supported it 
> (and because 160x200 must have looked awful, even with lots of colors...)
> 
> Does this odd video mode ring any bells with anyone out there?  Any idea what 
> hardware to look for that might support it?  At this point I'm more curious 
> about the actual hardware than getting this pre-alpha to run with it...
> 
> - Josh
> 
> 
> 
>