RE: where I've landed

[CuriousMarc]

Awesome!
Marc

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: OT: where I've landed

Hi all,

I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems 
appropriate to tell you where I've landed.  My new employer was in the news 
this week:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/

The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday.  The fun 
literally never stops living the dream! -- Ian

PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now.
 :-)
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School 

Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical 
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal  Value 
Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[James Vess]

Hey Ryan,

Sounds good! I appreciate you reaching out.
Once we have a better idea of how this is going to happen and if, I'm sure
I'll be in touch.

As always, once I have more information from the guy I'll pass it along.

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Ryan Eisworth 
wrote:

>
> > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:25 PM, James Vess 
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the
> > systems listed?
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali  wrote:
> >
> >>> Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine
> >>> for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html
>
> I’m live in Brenham, which is halfway between Houston and Austin. I wish I
> had read CCTalk earlier as I have been in Austin for the past two days and
> just got back home. Watching this thread, and would be interested in going
> in on part of the lot as more details emerge, or helping with
> pickup/shipping/temporary storage. A lot of unknowns about the lot and
> condition (and even quantity) of the machines so far though.
>
> Best regards,
> Ryan

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[Ryan Eisworth]

> On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:25 PM, James Vess  wrote:
> 
> I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the
> systems listed?
> 
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali  wrote:
> 
>>> Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine
>>> for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html

I’m live in Brenham, which is halfway between Houston and Austin. I wish I had 
read CCTalk earlier as I have been in Austin for the past two days and just got 
back home. Watching this thread, and would be interested in going in on part of 
the lot as more details emerge, or helping with pickup/shipping/temporary 
storage. A lot of unknowns about the lot and condition (and even quantity) of 
the machines so far though.

Best regards,
Ryan

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Fred Cisin]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2016, dwight wrote:

I don't recall how many heads a ST506 had. I have one on my NC4000,
home brew, machine. I recall picking the drives up at garage sales because
DOS no longer supported them, only being 5Meg.


ftp://ftp.seagate.com/pub/techsuppt/mfm/st506.txt
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/pub/techsuppt/mfm/st406.txt

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[Mark Linimon]

Fortunately or unfortunately I am away from Austin right
now or I would go take a look.

mcl

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[dwight]

I don't recall how many heads a ST506 had. I have one on my NC4000,
home brew, machine. I recall picking the drives up at garage sales because
DOS no longer supported them, only being 5Meg.
Next time I at my storage, I can being my machine home and power it up.
I suspect it has the setup information in my source code.
I used an old XT HD controller card for the hard drive and a XT floppy card
for the floppy. I disabled the EPROM on the HD card because it was
useless for the NC4000.
The M20 used the 11Meg ( I guess formatted 10 Meg ) drives. I used a
ST251 because it had the same number of heads (6) and RPM speed as
the Olivetti drive used. It had more cylinders but that wasn't an issue.

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Fred Cisin 

Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 3:13 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

Is that "3MB" FORMATTED, or UNFORMATTED capacity?

"10MB" (ST412) was 12MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 4 heads.
"5MB" (ST406) was 6MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 2 heads. or was
it (St506?) 153 cylinders with 4 heads?


In any case, using half as many heads/surfaces would create an "ST503"
drive.  about 2.5M formatted capacity.

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 03/13/2016 03:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote:


On the other hand, I'm told that in mass production it is extremely
uncommon for a side of a disk platter to have more than the
allowable number of defects, so it seems more likely that a downspec
hard drive would simply have fewer platters (and heads, etc.)
installed, rather than having some disabled for excessive defects, or
some untested.


On the other hand, there were a few small-drive manufacturers back in 
the day.  I don't think that Disctron/Otari ever made it past 20MB--but 
they certainly had a bunch of single-digit MB drives, including a 2 MB one.


It seems that 5.25" hard drive startups came in at least two phases. 
Some, like Memorex or BASF gave up after a run of low-capacity drives; 
others started up at the 10MB and up category.  I suspect this is due to 
a certain extent with the economic downturn around 1980.  (Remember the 
days of 18 percent morgages?) Money was tight and inflation was high.


The "DRAM war" didn't help much either. (16K DRAMs were a very "hot" 
property, often in both senses of being in demand and being purloined).


Good times...

--Chuck

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[James Vess]

Probably true, but it's a weekend and I have time to deal with it so we
will just see how it goes, I have some hope but low expectations.

On Sunday, March 13, 2016, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
> Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but
> trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a
> hoarder junk mine.  Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like
> that, that don't even state what they have and prices?
>
> You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers
> Only."It's also well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious
> Sellers Only."
>
> - J.
>
>
>
> On 3/13/2016 6:04 PM, James Vess wrote:
>
>> Good call!
>> He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on.
>>
>> I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them
>> or they'd be in storage at my place.
>>
>> So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool.
>> I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years
>> ago
>> on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that
>> hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it.
>>
>> He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens!
>>
>> On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson
>> wrote:
>>
>> I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's
>>> in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is
>>> always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just
>>> FWIW.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

RE: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> j...@cimmeri.com
> Sent: 13 March 2016 23:28
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...
> 
> 
> Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but
> trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a
> hoarder junk mine.  Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like
> that, that don't even state what they have and prices?
> 
> You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers Only."
> It's
> also well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious Sellers Only."
> 
> - J.
> 
> 

I didn't read it too closely as I am on the wrong side of the pond, but I was 
curious, so had a quick read. There seem to be at least three different sums of 
money mentioned, so the "listing" is confusing to say the least.

Regards

Rob

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[j...@cimmeri.com]

Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but 
trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a 
hoarder junk mine.  Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like that, 
that don't even state what they have and prices?

You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers Only."It's also 
well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious Sellers Only."

- J.



On 3/13/2016 6:04 PM, James Vess wrote:

Good call!
He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on.

I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them
or they'd be in storage at my place.

So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool.
I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years ago
on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that
hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it.

He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens!

On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson
wrote:


I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's
in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is
always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just
FWIW.

Re: Sun 4/260

[James Vess]

I'm leery of picking up any boards until I have a unit because I don't want
them just gathering dust at my place, however let me know the situation if
it's a good idea to wait or not.

I'm in Houston by the 610/290 split.

On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Pete Lancashire  wrote:

> Were are you located. I may still have the VME boards from the 260 that
> where saved from a 260 that had been scrapped
>
> -pete
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:56 AM, James Vess  >
> wrote:
>
> > Howdy there folks,
> >
> > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space
> > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled
> > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one.
> >
> > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for
> > sale or possibly even loan?
> >
> > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just
> > looking to recoup lost time :)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > James
> >
> >
>

Re: Mainframe floating point math implementation.

[Charles Anthony]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson 
wrote:

> I haven't gone through your code in great detail. In particular I'm
> not sure what your rounding algorithm is (towards zero, round to
> nearest, etc.) I don't see what you're using the guard bit for, I
> would expect it to be appended to the mantissa prior to addition
> and rounding. Whether that's significant would depend on how you
> expect the rounding to work.
>
>
I was experimenting with the IEEE rounding algorithms, which are driven by
guard bit, last bit, sticky bit; I left that data collection in place.
Using sticky bit got the best results.

You're not sure what the rounding algorithm is because I don't know what it
should be.

Two suggestions (which you may well have tried):
>
> 1. Try an extra guard bit.
>
> if mantissa negative and the last 3 bits shifted out are ones, then round
(for this case, set the mantissa to 0)?


> 2. Convert to sign+magnitude so you don't have to worry about negative
> mantissas (i.e. negate a negative mantissa before shifting and back
> again after alignment).
>
>
[So far] the only test failures have been with negative mantissas, so I
don't think that I gain anything by going to sign-and-magnitude; I'd be
tracking zeros being shifted off instead of ones, which it isn't going to
change the rounding algorithm, just the implementation.

-- Charles

Re: Sun 4/260

[James Vess]

Haha! Thanks man!

On Sunday, March 13, 2016, geneb  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, James Vess wrote:
>
> I honestly am a bit surprised, as other dealings I've had with groups that
>> focus on technology typically are not as welcoming or responsive.
>>
>> You caught us on a good day.  I'm sure you'll get yelled at next week.
>
> Welcome to the zoo. :)
>
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[James Vess]

Good call!
He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on.

I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them
or they'd be in storage at my place.

So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool.
I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years ago
on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that
hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it.

He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens!

On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson 
wrote:

> On Mar 12, 2016 10:25 PM, "James Vess"  > wrote:
> >
> > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the
> > systems listed?
> >
> > I would need to see enough interest to go do it though, as even though
> I'd
> > love to get these and just play with them, but I wouldn't be able to keep
> > them.
> >
> > I can't let myself go nuts collecting as I'm living the apartment life
> and
> > I don't want to "have to sell" things when I don't want to due to space
> > constraints or moving.
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali >
> wrote:
> >
> > > > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine
> > > > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html
> > >
> > > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next
> > > systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for
> $600 to
> > > make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of
> seems
> > > self defeating.
> > >
> > > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a
> > > look.
> > >
> > > -Ali
> > >
> > >
>
> I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's
> in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is
> always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just
> FWIW.
>

Re: Mainframe floating point math implementation.

[Charles Anthony]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> They may effectively have a "sticky" bit, similar to that used in IEEE
> 754 FP.  A sticky bit is used when shifting an operand right; if any
> one bits are shifted into the stick bit position, the sticky bit
> becomes 1, but shifting a zero into it does not clear it to zero. IEEE
> 754 uses the sticky bit to implement correct rounding.
>
> In this case, if there's a sticky bit it would prevent a non-zero
> operand mantissa that is shifted right from ever actually reaching
> zero.  If that operand is negative, that might result in the behavior
> you're seeing, where one ULP is being subtracted from the other
> operand.
>

'sticky bit' is what got me through to the 47th test, so it's close but not
quite right. (Assuming I implemented it correctly. "if shifted mantissa is
all ones and any ones were shifted out, then set the mantissa to 0".)


-- Charles

Re: Mainframe floating point math implementation.

[Eric Smith]

They may effectively have a "sticky" bit, similar to that used in IEEE
754 FP.  A sticky bit is used when shifting an operand right; if any
one bits are shifted into the stick bit position, the sticky bit
becomes 1, but shifting a zero into it does not clear it to zero. IEEE
754 uses the sticky bit to implement correct rounding.

In this case, if there's a sticky bit it would prevent a non-zero
operand mantissa that is shifted right from ever actually reaching
zero.  If that operand is negative, that might result in the behavior
you're seeing, where one ULP is being subtracted from the other
operand.

Re: Mainframe floating point math implementation.

[Lawrence Wilkinson]

I haven't gone through your code in great detail. In particular I'm
not sure what your rounding algorithm is (towards zero, round to
nearest, etc.) I don't see what you're using the guard bit for, I
would expect it to be appended to the mantissa prior to addition
and rounding. Whether that's significant would depend on how you
expect the rounding to work.

Two suggestions (which you may well have tried):

1. Try an extra guard bit.

2. Convert to sign+magnitude so you don't have to worry about negative
mantissas (i.e. negate a negative mantissa before shifting and back
again after alignment).

Lawrence

On 13/03/16 21:39, Charles Anthony wrote:

The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and
pedantic processor test program.

It is unhappy with our emulated floating point.

This should be the floating point used by the GE 6xx series and the
Honeywell DPS8 and 6000 series.

There is one particular failure that I am driven to seeking help for.

If the intricacies of mainframe floating point math h/w do not interest
you, time to delete this message and move on.

For add and subtract operations, the operand with the smaller has its
mantissa shifted right and the exponent incremented adjusted until the
exponents match.

>From the DPS8M assembly language manual:

"The mantissas are aligned by shifting the mantissa of the operand
having the algebraically smaller exponent to the right the number of
places equal to the absolute value of the difference in the two
exponents. Bits shifted beyond the bit position equivalent to AQ71 are
lost."

Sadly, ISOLTS complains about our implementation. It does helpfully provide
what it says are the correct answers. Examination of the answers reveals
the it is not the case that the shifted bits are lost; the shift mantissas
are rounded according to rules that I can't quite characterize.

ISOLTS runs many operands through the UFA (Unnormalized Floating Add)
instruction; the current state of my rounding algorithm passes the first 46
tests; fails on the 47th. Everytime I try a different approach, it fails on
an earlier test.

The best rule that I have is: if the shifted mantissa is all ones and at
least one of the bits shifted out was a one, the set the mantissa to 0.

Test #47 adds:

 70007000 E 31. to
 202025452400 E 102.

ISOLTS expects

  202025452377  E 102.

and it gets:

   202025452400 E 102.

The emulator should not have rounded in this case; but I cannot figure out
the rule.


I've abstracted the instruction out of the emulator and embedded it in a
standalone test harness that runs the 47 tests.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/drop/Charles/ufa47.c

Any insights, suggestions for algorithms, reading material would be greatly
appreciated.

-- Charles
  



--
Lawrence Wilkinson  lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Fred Cisin]

Is that "3MB" FORMATTED, or UNFORMATTED capacity?

"10MB" (ST412) was 12MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 4 heads.
"5MB" (ST406) was 6MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 2 heads. or was 
it (St506?) 153 cylinders with 4 heads?



In any case, using half as many heads/surfaces would create an "ST503" 
drive.  about 2.5M formatted capacity.

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Eric Smith]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jules Richardson
 wrote:
> Assuming for the moment that there were completely disabled surfaces
> involved due to too many defects (i.e. that this was a 2-platter drive with
> only one or maybe two active surfaces and the rest mapped out by the drive
> firmware), do you know how common a practice that was in the early days of
> ST506/412-type drives?
>
> I've heard various stories of it happening much later with more modern IDE
> drives in the multi-GB range (e.g. a 20GB drive might be a 40GB
> single-platter drive with one surface that had completely failed QC), but I
> don't know if it was ever done in the ST506/412 era.

Often when components and assemblies are sold in a down-spec
configuration, it isn't because anything failed test, but rather
because they didn't take the time to do the testing on that portion.
Testing a product is a significant part of the manufacturing cost, so
there's actually significant cost savings associated with only testing
a portion.  This is often the case with memory chips and multicore
processor chips; I don't know that it was done with hard drives, but
manufacturing test time for hard drives was definitely expensive.

On the other hand, I'm told that in mass production it is extremely
uncommon for a side of a disk platter to have more than the allowable
number of defects, so it seems more likely that a downspec hard drive
would simply have fewer platters (and heads, etc.) installed, rather
than having some disabled for excessive defects, or some untested.

PDP-11/23 Troubles Again

[Ben Sinclair]

In the previous episode, I was trying to get my M8013 and M8014 RL02
controller pair to pass the diskless controller test, and discovered it had
some sort of stuck bit. Repairing that seemed a little out of my scope, so
I recently found an M8061, and I tried to give it another go today.

However, my system has decided to be flakey again after not running for a
couple months. I removed the '13 and '14 and started up the memory and CPU
diagnostics just to make sure I was in a good starting position. The memory
passes just fine, but the JKDBD0 test no longer starts, and turns off the
run light.

Previously that was because of bad memory, (and it doesn't run at all with
too little memory), but using two tested good M8044's got everything
working.

I reseated everything, and am running with the M8186, two M8044s, M8043,
and the M8012, which was my previous good configuration. The power test
points on the M8012 are good.

I only have two (good, at least before) M8044s for memory, so I don't have
anything handy to swap in.

I think this particular machine just hates me, but assuming it doesn't,
does anyone have other suggestions? Thanks!

-- 
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Jules Richardson]

On 03/13/2016 03:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 03/13/2016 12:38 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:


These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn
employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big
jump - but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that
had three surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one
surface would be 5MB, and going from 3MB per surface in a
pre-production drive to 5MB in



Do you have a part number for the Olivetti drive?


No, unfortunately not, and the official service manual only mentions 10MB 
and 30MB drives (neither of which were Olivetti parts).



I think that taking a
10MB drive and downgrading it to a 3MB one wouldn't be a paying venture.


AIUI, Olivetti only shipped these 3MB drives to Acorn while they were 
testing their Winchester unit - Acorn never used them elsewhere. I am 
curious if they ever saw production though.


Assuming for the moment that there were completely disabled surfaces 
involved due to too many defects (i.e. that this was a 2-platter drive with 
only one or maybe two active surfaces and the rest mapped out by the drive 
firmware), do you know how common a practice that was in the early days of 
ST506/412-type drives?


I've heard various stories of it happening much later with more modern IDE 
drives in the multi-GB range (e.g. a 20GB drive might be a 40GB 
single-platter drive with one surface that had completely failed QC), but I 
don't know if it was ever done in the ST506/412 era.


Jules

Mainframe floating point math implementation.

[Charles Anthony]

The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and
pedantic processor test program.

It is unhappy with our emulated floating point.

This should be the floating point used by the GE 6xx series and the
Honeywell DPS8 and 6000 series.

There is one particular failure that I am driven to seeking help for.

If the intricacies of mainframe floating point math h/w do not interest
you, time to delete this message and move on.

For add and subtract operations, the operand with the smaller has its
mantissa shifted right and the exponent incremented adjusted until the
exponents match.

>From the DPS8M assembly language manual:

"The mantissas are aligned by shifting the mantissa of the operand
having the algebraically smaller exponent to the right the number of
places equal to the absolute value of the difference in the two
exponents. Bits shifted beyond the bit position equivalent to AQ71 are
lost."

Sadly, ISOLTS complains about our implementation. It does helpfully provide
what it says are the correct answers. Examination of the answers reveals
the it is not the case that the shifted bits are lost; the shift mantissas
are rounded according to rules that I can't quite characterize.

ISOLTS runs many operands through the UFA (Unnormalized Floating Add)
instruction; the current state of my rounding algorithm passes the first 46
tests; fails on the 47th. Everytime I try a different approach, it fails on
an earlier test.

The best rule that I have is: if the shifted mantissa is all ones and at
least one of the bits shifted out was a one, the set the mantissa to 0.

Test #47 adds:

70007000 E 31. to
202025452400 E 102.

ISOLTS expects

 202025452377  E 102.

and it gets:

  202025452400 E 102.

The emulator should not have rounded in this case; but I cannot figure out
the rule.


I've abstracted the instruction out of the emulator and embedded it in a
standalone test harness that runs the 47 tests.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/drop/Charles/ufa47.c

Any insights, suggestions for algorithms, reading material would be greatly
appreciated.

-- Charles

Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc

[Charles Anthony]

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Michael Thompson <
michael.99.thomp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:27:18 -0800
> > From: Charles Anthony 
> > Subject: Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this
> > message folks -smecc
> >
> > The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs
> > to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor).
> >
> > -- Charles
> >
>
> I believe that the IOMs are Input/Output *Multiplexers.*
>
>
Yes; brain cramp.

-- Charles

Re: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries

[Pete Turnbull]

On 13/03/2016 15:00, Michael Thompson wrote:


The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like
standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use
the same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack.


That's what I've always done.


Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05?


Yes: check the polarity.  On mine the red was -ve and the black was +ve. 
 Connecting red to red and black to black caused the heads to meet my 
hand rather sharply (and I use that adjective advisedly) but fortunately 
the red sticky stuff was easy to clean off.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Why the National Archives needs punch-card readers (Fwd by SMECC)

[COURYHOUSE]

 
Scruffy Millennials covet old record players because they dig the format; 
the  National Archives and Records Administration keeps old file players 
around  because legacy digital data demand them.  
"I am preserving every file format that has ever existed on the web, or 
that  any of you have ever used in your work on a daily basis," said Leslie 
Johnston,  NARA's director of digital preservation, who spoke at a March 10 
FedScoop event.  "In one transfer from one agency, we received not only their 
email, their Word  documents, their PDFs, their PowerPoints -- we actually 
received the entire  contents of their hard drives." 

http://bit.ly/1QVLam4 
enjoy -  
Ed Sharpe archivist   for SMECC  

Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc

[Michael Thompson]

>
> Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:27:18 -0800
> From: Charles Anthony 
> Subject: Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this
> message folks -smecc
>
> The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs
> to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor).
>
> -- Charles
>

I believe that the IOMs are Input/Output *Multiplexers.*

-- 
Michael Thompson

Re: Sun 4/260

[Pete Lancashire]

Were are you located. I may still have the VME boards from the 260 that
where saved from a 260 that had been scrapped

-pete

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:56 AM, James Vess 
wrote:

> Howdy there folks,
>
> I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space
> issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled
> I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one.
>
> Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for
> sale or possibly even loan?
>
> I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just
> looking to recoup lost time :)
>
> Thanks,
> James
>
>

DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries

[Michael Thompson]

We started working on the RK05 drive that is part of the PDP-12 at the RICM.

The drve is very clean and in good condition. It will need new seals
between the blower and the card cage, and between the plenum and the disk
pack. I think that 1/2" and 1/4" weatherstrip from Home Depot will work
fine.

The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like
standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use
the same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack.

Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05?

-- 
Michael Thompson

RE: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries

[Rick Bensene]

Michael Thompson wrote:
> 
> The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like
> standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use the
> same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack.
> 
> Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05?
> 


I've used those 4.8V rechargeable battery packs for cordless phones as the 
emergency retract batteries in a few RK05 drives, and they seem to work just 
fine. Just make sure you get a NiCd pack rather than NiMH as there are 
charging differences and I'm not sure if NiMH batteries would be happy in the 
charging circuit of an RK05 (but, who knows, they may work, I just haven't 
tried it).

-Rick
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 03/13/2016 12:38 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:


These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn
employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big
jump - but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that
had three surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one
surface would be 5MB, and going from 3MB per surface in a
pre-production drive to 5MB in



Do you have a part number for the Olivetti drive?  I think that taking a 
10MB drive and downgrading it to a 3MB one wouldn't be a paying venture.


--Chuck

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Jules Richardson]

On 03/13/2016 01:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Hard drives smaller than 5MB were not unusual.  For example, the Rodime
RO-101 was only 3MB.


Interesting... I've had 'real' ST506's before, but I don't think I've ever 
seen or heard of anything less than that (in a 5.25" f/f)



My list shows Olivetti-branded drives starting at 10MB forever.  So
probably someone else's drive.


Right, they did a 10MB and 20MB, but I've not heard of anything else...

These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn 
employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big jump - 
but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that had three 
surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one surface would be 5MB, 
and going from 3MB per surface in a pre-production drive to 5MB in the end 
product wouldn't be such of a leap.


J.

Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03

[Pete Turnbull]

On 13/03/2016 18:11, Richard Cini wrote:


To close this out, I want to report that with Malcolm’s and Mattis’
help, I was able to get RT-11 v4 and v5.03 running on the H-11 using
the TU58 emulator.



Thanks to all who helped push me along on this. I did create a
separate Heath page on my Web site for it.


Excellent news!  Well done :-)

--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 03/13/2016 10:28 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:


Does anyone recall an Olivetti ST506-interface drive with a colossal
3MB capacity? Apparently a full-height 5.25" unit with 4 heads and
two platters.

I'm just curious; I always thought that capacities either equaled or
 surpassed the 5MB of Seagate's ST506 after they introduced it, so I
was a bit surprised to hear of a drive with < 5MB.



Hard drives smaller than 5MB were not unusual.  For example, the Rodime 
RO-101 was only 3MB.


My list shows Olivetti-branded drives starting at 10MB forever.  So 
probably someone else's drive.


--Chuck

Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03

[Richard Cini]

All —

To close this out, I want to report that with Malcolm’s and Mattis’ 
help, I was able to get RT-11 v4 and v5.03 running on the H-11 using the TU58 
emulator. 

Avoiding the gory details, the upshot is that there was a bus interrupt 
issue relating to how the cards were installed — I had the slot numbering wrong 
so there was a gap between two cards. RT-11 started booting and then barfed 
during the boot.

Once I moved the second SLU to the right position, RT-11 booted 
properly. So, now I have both RT-11 v4 and v5 running on the H-11. Hooray!

Thanks to all who helped push me along on this. I did create a separate 
Heath page on my Web site for it.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32







On 3/11/16, 9:21 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jerome H. Fine" 
 wrote:

> >On Thursday, February 10th, 2016 at 12:51:30 - 0500, Richard Cini wrote:
>
>>Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which CPUs? 
>>The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. Is there 
>>a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU?
>>
>>I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it 
>>bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted 
>>to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem.
>>
>Sorry for the delay in my answer.  I was out of town for the last
>36 hours, so I just noticed this thread.
>
>For maximum flexibility, I would suggest V05.03 of RT-11.  It is
>just about the most widely available and has the benefit of probably
>being completely legal to use on a non-commercial basis with SimH.
>
>V04.00 of RT-11 will probably run equally well, but obviously
>without some of the many additional features found in V05.03
>of RT-11.  In addition, you might want to check even later
>versions of RT-11, all of which still run on a PDP-11/03 CPU.
>
>Under V05.03 of RT-11, you can use either distributed
>Unmapped Monitor, RT11SJ or RT11FB.  The size will be
>larger than from V04.00 of RT-11, but I suggest that the
>additional features are more than worth while.  Since you
>have all 32 KW or memory or 64 KB, you will not have
>any problem booting RT-11.
>
>If you have any specific questions using Ersatz-11 with
>a PDP-11/03, just ask.  That will make sure that the
>configuration and the boot device is set up correctly.
>
>Just for practice, you might try using Ersatz-11 with V05.03
>of RT-11 with SET  CPU 03.  You will find that Ersatz-11
>is trivial to use and that it supports emulation of all types of
>disk drives including TU-58, RK05, RL02 and SCSI, named,
>respectively, DD:, RK:, DL: and DU:, the same as DEC names
>them.  Be warned that after you practice with Ersatz-11, you
>may find that an LSI-11, also called a PDP-11/03, is a bit
>slower than running with Ersatz-11, even on a 486.  My
>experience with just a 750 MHz Pentium III is that RT-11
>runs about 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93.  On a current
>I7 from Intel, I expect speeds more than 100 times as fast
>as a PDP-11/93.
>
>If you provide some of the information requested below, a
>version of RT-11 might be suggested which is a better fit.
>Otherwise, my assumption at present is that you want to
>use RT-11 since it is the only reasonable choice out of
>RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E, although I am reasonably
>sure that RSTS/E can't run on a PDP-11/03.  Further, you
>want to run RT-11 to be able to show that you can run
>RT-11 on the PDP-11/03 hardware that you have.  That
>is quite different from the original reason a PDP-11/03
>system was purchased, namely to run specific application
>programs which were able to run under RT-11.  If I
>am incorrect, please let me know and advise otherwise.
>
>It does sound like you have the Heath Kit version of the hardware.
>If so, then you probably don't have a hard disk drive.  A complete
>list of the actual hardware will be helpful.  In addition, even more
>important from my point of view is why you want to use the hardware
>that you have to run RT-11 (most likely because it will not run anything
>else very easily) and then which specific application programs will be
>run after you are successful in getting RT-11 to run.  Just as important
>is how you will interface with the PDP-11/03 and move the results
>from the PDP-11/03 to either printed output or a system that can
>share the results via the internet.
>
>Jerome Fine

Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive?

[Jules Richardson]

Does anyone recall an Olivetti ST506-interface drive with a colossal 3MB 
capacity? Apparently a full-height 5.25" unit with 4 heads and two platters.


I'm just curious; I always thought that capacities either equaled or 
surpassed the 5MB of Seagate's ST506 after they introduced it, so I was a 
bit surprised to hear of a drive with < 5MB.


For context, Acorn apparently used them during development of their 
external Winchester units for BBC micros (Acorn SASI board, Adaptec 
SASI-ST506 bridge, ST506 drive). Production units that I'm aware of had 
either a 10MB or 30MB drive fitted (BASF typically, I think). We're talking 
1983, or maybe late '82, so considerably after the introduction of the 
original Seagate drive.


The only Olivetti drives I'm finding mention of are a 10MB single-platter 
drive and a 20MB dual-platter drive. Acorn had close ties with Olivetti, of 
course, so I did wonder if Acorn acquired some pre-production drives - but 
it seems like a bit of a leap to go from a 3MB dual-platter prototype to a 
20MB one.


cheers

Jules

RE: Introduction and Alpha Micro AM-1200 query

[Jay West]

Ross;

Welcome aboard, glad to have you here.

Additional datapoints for you - In a previous life I owned a Pick-based 
consulting firm. Our focus was on our in-house written software packages but we 
always sold pick-based hardware as well. Over many years of operation as the 
personal relationships and technologies changed we would have some "preferred 
platform" but generally maintained dealership status for the others. Long story 
short, we sold a lot of pick or MV based systems and alpha micro was one of 
them for a good while.

What I recall during the days of being an alpha micro dealer was that the AM 
machines of the day could be ordered as Pick machines or AMOS machines. I 
believe that the system itself was identical, but each OS wanted certain 
options/configurations. As one example, I think pick got a certain make/model 
of multiport board whereas amos got a different one (or maybe the same one but 
just jumpered as AMOS would expect it).

I do not know if the am-1200 you mention was during this time period. I do 
remember the machines we got were beige, desktop formfactor, and roughly the 
size of a typical PC of the time.

Best,

J

Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...

[Eric Christopherson]

On Mar 12, 2016 10:25 PM, "James Vess"  wrote:
>
> I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the
> systems listed?
>
> I would need to see enough interest to go do it though, as even though I'd
> love to get these and just play with them, but I wouldn't be able to keep
> them.
>
> I can't let myself go nuts collecting as I'm living the apartment life and
> I don't want to "have to sell" things when I don't want to due to space
> constraints or moving.
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali  wrote:
>
> > > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine
> > > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html
> >
> > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next
> > systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for
$600 to
> > make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of seems
> > self defeating.
> >
> > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a
> > look.
> >
> > -Ali
> >
> >

I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's
in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is
always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just
FWIW.

Re: Sun 4/260

[geneb]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, James Vess wrote:


I honestly am a bit surprised, as other dealings I've had with groups that
focus on technology typically are not as welcoming or responsive.


You caught us on a good day.  I'm sure you'll get yelled at next week.

Welcome to the zoo. :)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03

[Richard Cini]

That's an awesome find Don, thanks!

Rich

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 13, 2016, at 3:23 AM, Don North  wrote:
> 
> Ok, filed as: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/285
> 
>> On 3/12/2016 11:14 PM, Don North wrote:
>> Fixed!
>> 
>> sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp
>> sim> set tdc enable
>> sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk
>> sim> b tdc0
>> 
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR
>> 
>> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
>> REVISION: F0
>> BOOTED FROM DD0
>> 124KW OF MEMORY
>> UNIBUS SYSTEM
>> 
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP !
>> 
>> In file pdp11_td.c, comment out/delete line 1023 (red) "ctlr->rx_buf = 
>> ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++];   /* get first byte */"
>> 
>> This would seem to be priming the read routine, but in fact it is discarding 
>> the first byte of the block zero bootstrap.
>> 
>> Don
>> 
>> 
>>case TD_OPBOO:
>>if (ctlr->ibptr < 2) {  /* whole packet read? 
>> */
>>ctlr->ilen = 2;
>>ctlr->o_state = TD_GETDATA; /* get rest of packet 
>> */
>>return;
>>}
>>else {
>>int8 *fbuf;
>>int i;
>> 

Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03

[Mattis Lind]

2016-03-13 8:23 GMT+01:00 Don North :

> Ok, filed as: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/285
>
>
> On 3/12/2016 11:14 PM, Don North wrote:
>
>> Fixed!
>>
>> sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp
>> sim> set tdc enable
>> sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk
>> sim> b tdc0
>>
>> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR
>>
>> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
>> REVISION: F0
>> BOOTED FROM DD0
>> 124KW OF MEMORY
>> UNIBUS SYSTEM
>>
>> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
>> TYPE "H" FOR HELP !
>
>

Well done!

Thanks. Myself I never got further than finding that the boot block read in
was not the same as the one on tape. But now it looks obvious it was just
shifted one byte.

/Mattis

>
>
>

Re: Apple Disk II

[Peter Chatt]

£25 to £35, which is pretty much the same as the sale price.

> On 13 Mar 2016, at 09:25, James Vess  wrote:
> 
> Hey Peter,
> 
> Out of curiosity, How much is it coming from the US to your location?
> 
> Thanks,
> James
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Peter Chatt  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and
>> controller card in the uk?  The shipping costs from the US are a too much.
>> 
>> Thanks

Re: Apple Disk II

[James Vess]

Hey Peter,

Out of curiosity, How much is it coming from the US to your location?

Thanks,
James

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Peter Chatt  wrote:

> Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and
> controller card in the uk?  The shipping costs from the US are a too much.
>
> Thanks

Apple Disk II

[Peter Chatt]

Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and controller 
card in the uk?  The shipping costs from the US are a too much.

Thanks