Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/26/2016 09:49 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> There were also "Compactrons", 12-pin tubes kind of extending the 7-
> and 9-pin submini tubes. Some of them had at least 3 elements in one
> envelope.

I remember them and used them.  In particular, I remember an AF
amplifier with push-pull beam output elements and a triode phase
inverter all in one element.

--Chuck

R: Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[supervinx]

http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/Apple/Quadra/950/

Scroll down and you'll find many A/UX pictures

The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email

[Mouse]

What a pile of stuff, much of which ties in (in various directions)
with things I've been thinking.

In no particular order

Grades - ideally, yes, grades would be unnecessary.  But in a system
where others depend on something at least vaguely objective to measure
whether people know things, some kind of grading is necessary.

Does it have to be done the way it's done now?  Of course not.  But,
unless you can also eliminate a bunch of the other societal mechanisms
and conventions that have accreted around the educational system, it
needs to be done.

Unless you are doing something purely for the students.  I once taught
a weekend course with no grading of any sort.  Every student got a
piece of paper I signed certifying they had attended the course, but
there was nothing at all - save of course the students' increased
proficiency in the subject matter - indicating how much the various
students had got out of it.  In some respects I think that's the best
way to handle education/training/learning, but it's difficult to get
completely away from the rest of those mechanisms and conventions I
mentioned above.

This segues neatly into the distinction someone raised between
education and training.  Again, I would say that ideally there should
be no distinction, but that in this society (and I suspect that, for
all their differences, the societies most/all of the listmembers live
in are more or less the same in this regard), there is a substantial
operational distinction between the sort of background fundamentals
that were called "education" and the sort of focused specifics that
were called "training".  Especially in North America, there used to be
a distinction between "university" and "college", with universities
providing "education" and colleges providing "training".
Unfortunately, this is on the way to getting lost - I recommend Paul
Fussell's delightful little book _Class_, which, among other things,
has a chapter or two about how colleges got redesignated universities
and trade schools colleges; that feels related to me.

I'm inclined to agree that the societal purpose of universities is
advancing the state of the art, whereas that of trade schools is
preparing people for jobs (in whichever industry the school covers).
Today's blurring of this distinction I see as symptomatic of much of
the problem with today's educational system.

I was trained - er, educated, I guess :) - as a mathematician, with a
side order of computer science (B.Sc. major in maths, minor in CS).  In
practice, though, I'm neither mathematician nor computer scientist, but
rather programmer and sysadmin.  Yet the maths and CS training were
extremely valuable to me; I am a far better programmer and sysadmin for
having the math and CS background.

Take also, for example, Lisp.  I've used Lisp.  I even wrote a Lisp
engine.  I love the language, even though I almost never use it.  But
some of the mental patterns it has given me inform much of the code I
write regardless of language.  I have seen it said that a language that
does not change the way you think about programming is not worth
knowing.  I think that goes too far, but something weaker along the
same lines _is_ true, and Lisp is a good vehicle for some of those
changes.  (Adding continuations to my Lisp engine was a fascinating
experience, one well worth the time and effort involved, even though I
have never used them for anything serious.)  And I do not exclude
low-level languages; just as I think knowing Lisp makes me a better
programmer even when not using Lisp, I also think my knowing assembly
and machine language for various processors makes me a better
programmer even when not using them.  (And, yes, the people who think
Lisp is useless-in-practice clearly have never looked even the tiniest
bit under the hood of GNU Emacs.)

People have remarked on the knowing of multiple languages.  I would say
it matters terribly what the languages in question are.  Knowing C,
JavaScript, Pascal, and awk is, for example, very very different from
knowing Lisp, Prolog, Objective-C, and TeX, even though each one hits
the same putative "knows four languages" tickbox on a hiring form.  I
draw a sharp distinction between "programming" and "programming in
$LANGUAGE", for any value of $LANGUAGE.  Someone who knows the latter
may be able to get a job writing code in $LANGUAGE...but someone who
groks the former can pick up any language in relatively short order.
The bracketed note in the second paragraph of content on
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/personality.html is exactly the sort of
thing I'm talking about here; ESR taught himself TeX by the simple
expedient of reading the TeXBook.

One particular message seems to me to call for individual response:

> There are two major language families: declarative and imperative.
> [...]  Declarative langauges are [...].  A few langauges under this
> family:

>   Prolog

Agreed, though AIUI the presence of cuts weakens this somewhat.
(Caveat, I 

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/26/2016 07:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope?
> 
> Perhaps Selectrons.

EBAM?

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave
> Wade
> Sent: 26 April 2016 23:18
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> 
> Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem
> 
> > I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads
> > to
> see if
> > I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and
> write
> > patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the
> > DROM
> itself,
> > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM
> > programmer
> and
> > someone else to read their DROM.
> 
> What size PLCC? I have some PLCC to DIL adaptors...
> 

Not to worry, I have an adapter coming. Thanks for the offer anyway.

Regards

Rob

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Sean Caron]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:



Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server
or Apple Workgroup Server? I had several hundred AIX machines running in a
server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only
done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't
belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL.


I have an AWGS 95. Basically a Quadra 950 with a special PDS card and DDS 
drive. It runs A/UX 3.0.1 ... I also ran A/UX 3.0.1 on my IIfx for a while 
but I got tired of it and reloaded the machine with System 7.


Out of all the machines Apple made, only the IIfx and the AWGS 95 were in 
any way engineered with A/UX in mind ... IIRC, the I/O coprocessors in the 
IIfx only run in A/UX, and the PDS card in the WGS 95 is only supported in 
A/UX.


A/UX is an interesting system. Compatibility with System 7 apps is pretty 
good, though not perfect. The UNIX environment is pretty stunted but that 
could have been fixed with further development. They did manage to combine 
the System 7 GUI with a basic UNIX command line. One favorite alternative 
reality of mine is to imagine Apple continuing to develop A/UX, improving 
the UNIX environment and applications compatibility, using the Copland UI 
instead of buying NeXT and turning NeXTstep into Mac OS X. But BeOS was 
better than either of them ;)



I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them.  I'm
guessing 4.x.  I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX,
AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD.


The Workgroup Servers were 68k Macs that ran A/UX (or later just PPC Macs 
that ran Mac OS and AppleShare). In the case of the WGS 95, there was a
hop-up board included, but it was still just a Quadra 950 at heart that 
can run Mac OS like any other Q950. The Network Servers were PPC machines 
that ran AIX and only AIX... and in that regard not really Macs, IMO. A/UX 
never ran on PPC. I saw a fair number of Workgroup Servers back in the good

ole days, 68k and PPC, but I've never ever seen a Network Server.

I remember the "Applefritter" site was hosted on an ANS 700 for a while 
and I thought I read somewhere that it ran on AIX 4.x.


No such machine exists but it's interesting to think what may have come 
had CHRP succeeded and Apple did things a little differently. I miss the 
RISC wars... :O


Best,

Sean

Re: Fast Unibus Sync Serial?

[Ken Seefried]

From: Ethan Dicks 
>
> DUP-11?  Will that do what you need?
>

Not sure, Ethan.  I'm been looking at the doco and it's not clear yet
if it's suitable for what I'm trying to do.

Thanks for the pointer.

KJ

Re: Fast Unibus Sync Serial?

[Ken Seefried]

From: Paul Koning 
>
> HDLC is ok so far as it goes, but DDCMP is superior in every respect.  The 
> only reason
> to use HDLC is that you need to talk something that can't be made to speak 
> DDCMP.
>

Like a Cisco router without the DECnet feature set?  Or pretty much
anything that doesn't speak DECnet?

KJ

Re: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation?

[William Donzelli]

Yes, the CSPI box is mounted inside a standard DEC cabinet. I have one of
these things in a VAX, originally part of some sort of chemical analysis
tool.

--
Will
On Apr 26, 2016 9:44 PM, "Jon Elson"  wrote:

On 04/26/2016 07:59 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:

> Seriously,
>
> http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p
>
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645
>
> What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector
> processor?
>
We got a CSPI 6410 and had it hooked to a VAX 11/780.  It was probably a
bigger brother to the machine you
link to.  There was a big math library that came with it.  If you had
really regular matrix operations, such as FFTs, matrix multiplies and
similar classic operations, it could do them quite fast, in the several
MFLOP range.  The bigger the matrix (as long as it fit in the memory of the
unit) the better, as the library just set up all the registers, loaded the
data and turned it loose.  If you had a bunch of small matrices, it was a
lot less efficient, as it had the same setup overhead for every task.

Yes, it is a vector processor, with a floating-point multiplier and adder,
some address arithmetic logic and a sequencer.

Jon

Re: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation?

[Jon Elson]

On 04/26/2016 07:59 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:

Seriously,

http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645

What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector
processor?
We got a CSPI 6410 and had it hooked to a VAX 11/780.  It 
was probably a bigger brother to the machine you
link to.  There was a big math library that came with it.  
If you had really regular matrix operations, such as FFTs, 
matrix multiplies and similar classic operations, it could 
do them quite fast, in the several MFLOP range.  The bigger 
the matrix (as long as it fit in the memory of the unit) the 
better, as the library just set up all the registers, loaded 
the data and turned it loose.  If you had a bunch of small 
matrices, it was a lot less efficient, as it had the same 
setup overhead for every task.


Yes, it is a vector processor, with a floating-point 
multiplier and adder, some address arithmetic logic and a 
sequencer.


Jon

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Jon Elson]

On 04/26/2016 12:14 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote:

Erik is not the only one.  Check out Tatiana van Vark.

Excellent!  I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like
this.  Now I know.  Like I said, what a cool hobby.


Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics
suite from a Vulcan bomber!

That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.  I can identify perhaps
*one* of those devices.  I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar.
That's it!  Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break
down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup.


There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit
and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it.

As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ?  Damn son.  That's what you
call a passion for your hobby.  Hopefully, being female she has less
problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD
butler.  It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes.  :-)


Not too clear she has been married.  Seems she has WAY too 
many projects to have had an SO.
This all seems to be gear from the '60s or maybe '70s at the 
latest.  You HAVE to watch the video!


Go to http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvv5/gimbal.html
click the lower right link, click the right hand image to 
start the video.  Watch for the racks of equipment.
I especially LOVE the panel of about 30 gears that I guess 
sum up the axes mechanically.


Jon

Re: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation?

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Charles Anthony wrote:
> Try searching for ' cspi mini-map vector  processor'

Ah yes. The marketdroid blurb sums it up: 


"Today, CSPI is recognized as a leading manufacturer of vector processors 
which enhance a computer's ability to perform high-speed arithmetic.  
Markets served include science and engineering applications in signal 
processing, sonar and radar processing, image processing, seismic 
processing and well logging, medical imaging (such at CT and MRI scanning, 
and others."

-Swift

Re: Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation?

[Charles Anthony]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:

>
> Seriously,
>
> http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p
>
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645
>
> What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector
> processor? External? How delightfully weird, except there is very little
> online about it.
>

Try searching for ' cspi mini-map vector  processor'

-- Charles

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Glen Slick]

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate
> security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not
> actually tried yet.
>

A PLS173 does not have a security fuse.
A PLUS173 does have a security fuse.

On my CMD CDU-720/M there are some PLS173 parts, but the CSR decode
PAL is a PLUS173 part, so I assume it is secured.

Double check whether the CSR decode PAL on your CDU-710 is a PLS173 or
a PLUS173.

-Glen

Mini Map Array Processor - What in tarnation?

[Swift Griggs]

Seriously,

http://tinyurl.com/j46jg4p

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102743645

What in the world is this thing? Some kind of early parallel or vector 
processor? External? How delightfully weird, except there is very little 
online about it. Did any of you work with one of these? What kind of 
instructions do they use? What is their bus width on the ...uh what? CPUs? 
What kind of addressing modes & size(s) do these use? Why does the one 
reference talk about the 64k RAM they had? Were these standalone machines 
('cause it looks like it goes to a VAX-11 and "LSI-11") ?

This was before my time but fascinating, nonetheless. 

-Swift

Re: Using flashable Macintosh ROM SIMM

[Al Kossow]

I assume you'd have to locate a 32-bit clean rom image from one of the emulator 
sites, then break out every 1/4 byte
into a file. You then have to use an external prom programmer to write them. 
According to the eBay ad:

"Chips are socketed for individual flashing on a standard eprom programmer with 
PLCC32 adapter."


On 4/26/16 3:44 PM, David Griffith wrote:
> 
> I have a "MACSIMM" from GGLabs (http://gglabs.us) which I bought from their 
> Ebay store.  Unfortunately they haven't
> followed up on my request for information on how to prepare a ROM image for 
> use with the thing.  Has anyone else here
> used this or a similar device to hack the ROMs of the Mac SE/30, IIsi, IIci, 
> or IIfx?  It's composed of four 39SF010A
> 32-pin PLCC chips the special 64-pin SIMM.
> 
> 

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[William Donzelli]

There were a few others, as well as some RF devices with the tuned parts
inside the bulb. There were also some oddball types made for weather
balloon use that had the whole transmitter circuit as one unit.

--
Will
On Apr 26, 2016 6:30 PM, "Chuck Guzis"  wrote:

On 04/26/2016 12:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen
> it elsewhere.  Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes
> are pretty common, but those are just the active part.

The only "passive in the tube" examples I can think of in US manufacture
are simple between-unit resistors, such as the 6N6.

--Chuck

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[William Donzelli]

> On the world there is probably only my 12 bit freely programmable
> Elliott 900 still alive, I know of as little as 6 Rolms (privately
> owned, all variants) and less than 5 of the inertial navigators.

If you are talking about the various Rolm 1600 series machines - there are
a whole lot more of those out there. I had 12 of them in stock maybe ten
years ago, and sold my last one last year. And about five years ago, I
moved a few more for a client.

There are also a bunch still in service at the paper mills.

--
Will

Using flashable Macintosh ROM SIMM

[David Griffith]

I have a "MACSIMM" from GGLabs (http://gglabs.us) which I bought from 
their Ebay store.  Unfortunately they haven't followed up on my request 
for information on how to prepare a ROM image for use with the thing.  Has 
anyone else here used this or a similar device to hack the ROMs of the Mac 
SE/30, IIsi, IIci, or IIfx?  It's composed of four 39SF010A 32-pin PLCC 
chips the special 64-pin SIMM.



--
David Griffith
d...@661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/26/2016 12:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen
> it elsewhere.  Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes
> are pretty common, but those are just the active part.

The only "passive in the tube" examples I can think of in US manufacture
are simple between-unit resistors, such as the 6N6.

--Chuck

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Mike Ross]

I'm on holiday with my kids just - ping me next week when I'm home!
On Apr 27, 2016 9:59 AM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:

> Hey Mike,
>
> The docs claim the 700 / 710 TM use PAL P70013A at U102, and the 720
> TM uses PAL P720008A at U102, but I don't think it'd catch anything on fire
> to try it.
>
> Could you send the two EPROM images too? Sounds like a great opportunity to
> break in your BP (Baller Programmer) 1200...
>
> Remember to save the buffer from the Data Pattern window :)
>
> - Ian
>
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Mike Ross  wrote:
>
> > Is a 720TM any use? I just acquired one... And a BP-1200.…
> >
> > Mike
> > On Apr 27, 2016 9:35 AM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers?
> > >
> > > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a
> > dump
> > > of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can
> read
> > it
> >
>
>
>
> --
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com
>

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift
> Griggs
> Sent: 26 April 2016 23:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem
> 
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself,
> > which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM
> > programmer and someone else to read their DROM.
> 
> Could you use a pull or replacement mobo ? I notice there are some
> Alphastation mobos on ebay for @50 bucks if you are interested and not
> averse to fleabay :-) There isn't as much specifically for the 200, but I
see
> them come and go all the time.
> 
> Also, I still deal with a lot of business clients running alphas and
Tru64. There
> is a guy in Thornton, Colorado who I get quite a few dead, spare, and
> orphaned alphas from. It's an electronics supply type business.
> I'll see him this weekend and I can ask him if he's got any spares or dead
> mobos he could fork over.
> 
> Thanks,
>   Swift

Many thanks for the suggestion. Only trouble is I am in the UK and shipping
tends to be expensive from the USA. I'll check on ebay in the UK, as long as
it doesn't cost too much.

Regards

Rob

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Dave Wade]

> I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to
see if
> I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it and
write
> patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM
itself,
> which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer
and
> someone else to read their DROM.

What size PLCC? I have some PLCC to DIL adaptors...


> 
> Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now.
> Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would
> be helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to
remove
> it from the machine or to have a programmer.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob

Dave
G4UGM

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Glen Slick]

On Apr 26, 2016 3:04 PM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:
>
> The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate
> security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not
> actually tried yet.
>

Regardless of what the spec sheet does or does not explicitly say, I think
when I selected that device in the BPWin device programmer software there
was an option to protect the device after programming. I'm mobile now, I
can check that later.

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or the DROM itself, 
> which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my PROM programmer 
> and someone else to read their DROM.

Could you use a pull or replacement mobo ? I notice there are some 
Alphastation mobos on ebay for @50 bucks if you are interested and not 
averse to fleabay :-) There isn't as much specifically for the 200, but I 
see them come and go all the time.

Also, I still deal with a lot of business clients running alphas and 
Tru64. There is a guy in Thornton, Colorado who I get quite a few dead, 
spare, and orphaned alphas from. It's an electronics supply type business. 
I'll see him this weekend and I can ask him if he's got any spares or dead 
mobos he could fork over.

Thanks,
  Swift

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Ian Finder]

The spec sheet from the PAL mfg. (signetics PLS173) seems to indicate
security fuses aren't an option on the model on my board. I have not
actually tried yet.

Failing that, if I can find one locally, there are only 12 bits of
combinatorial inputs.

I could easily whip up a little Arduino project on a breadboard to walk
thru all 4096 states and log the outputs for manual factoring.

- Ian

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Glen Slick  wrote:

> On Apr 26, 2016 2:35 PM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone out there have one of these controllers?
> >
> > There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a
> dump of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can
> read it
>
> Curious how you know it is not a protected PAL? The PALs are protected on
> all of the CMD CQD adapters I have looked at. I can't remember if I
> bothered checking the PAL on my CDU-720/M
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Glen Slick]

On Apr 26, 2016 2:35 PM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:
>
> Does anyone out there have one of these controllers?
>
> There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a
dump of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can
read it

Curious how you know it is not a protected PAL? The PALs are protected on
all of the CMD CQD adapters I have looked at. I can't remember if I
bothered checking the PAL on my CDU-720/M

Re: PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Mike Ross]

Is a 720TM any use? I just acquired one... And a BP-1200.…

Mike
On Apr 27, 2016 9:35 AM, "Ian Finder"  wrote:

> Does anyone out there have one of these controllers?
>
> There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a dump
> of it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read it

MEM11A status update

[Guy Sotomayor]

Just to let folks know that I just received the prototype boards for the MEM11A 
(FedEx just left).
The boards look great!  The parts from Digikey arrived late last week, so once 
I get my soldering
station set up (new microscope and new Metcal soldering iron) I’ll start to 
build a couple of boards
to test out.  Once I have a couple working *and* I get firm orders for at least 
25 boards (hint, hint)
I’ll do a production run.

TTFN  - Guy

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote:
> > Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars 
> > in the 90's. Too much drama. :-)
> What VMS vs Unix wars?  I don't recall any in the 90s.  Perhaps in the 80s
> ...

Perhaps so; like I said, I missed them, and thank goodness. 

Talk about a polarizing argument. I've met a metric ton of brilliant Unix 
*and* VMS folks, and some that knew both. :-)

-Swift

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Robert Jarratt]

> I just got some very interesting results.
> 
> I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console.
It
> contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address
> register contained 0x4000.
> 
> So I booted VMS and modified my code to read the same locations.
> Pleasingly the code read back the same values. Which I hope means my code
> is correct.
> 
> I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register
> which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good
chance I
> am reading the right things.
> 
> This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I
> changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read
and
> write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't change
the
> LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data register
> gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not right,
perhaps
> the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I don't know what
> they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's value is 0x4000
> (the raw value in the register), and this equates to
> 0x1.000. based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address
space.
> 
> I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set
up
> bank 8?
> 

It turns out that I only needed to flip the bit in the bank 8 config
register and I can now access the flashbus. I can write to the LEDs, it
turns out that writing a 0 turns the LED on, rather than off, which is why I
thought it hadn't worked.

I can now do test code for the NVRAM, I will start with repeated reads to
see if I get different values on different occasions. Then I will save it
and write patterns etc. It may be a checksum that is failing of course. Or
the DROM itself, which I can't verify until I get the PLCC adapter for my
PROM programmer and someone else to read their DROM.

Thanks for all the help I have a way forward for a little while now.
Although anyone with one of these machines who could read the DROM would be
helpful. I will be able to supply a VMS program to read it, so need to
remove it from the machine or to have a programmer.

Regards

Rob

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated:
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> 
> > Unix is a very religious subject.  My last intent is to get on someone's 
> > bad side here.
> 
> Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars 
> in the 90's. Too much drama. :-)

  What VMS vs Unix wars?  I don't recall any in the 90s.  Perhaps in the 80s
...

  -spc (Who used VMS briefly in college ... )

PAL on CDU-700 / 710 Unibus disk controllers

[Ian Finder]

Does anyone out there have one of these controllers?

There is an unprotected PAL- the address decoder- and I really need a dump of 
it. Many programmers, particularly the BP technologies ones, can read it

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> I won't say any more or provide any specifics, as I like being on this 
> list and don't want to get booted for sharing locations for unlicensed 
> software.

Understood. I like to keep it legal, since I mainly work as a systems 
programmer or sysadmin. 

> Ultimately, it boils down to what your morals are, when using an 
> abandoned product from a couple of decades ago for hobbyist and/or 
> learning usage only.

Well, I teach some AIX classes on occasion and I've got to be very 
careful. YMMV and TEHO. 

When it comes to A/UX, I'm a little more sanguine since it's completely 
defunct at this point. I do want to learn about it sometime since it's 
supposed to have a MacOS compat layer which sounds interesting. 

> > > AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either.
> > Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork
> > on the attack. [...]
> Sorry for any misunderstanding here, you are reading something into this here
> that was never intended.

Sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying. I understand what you 
meant, now.

> I'm not up to date on the Current version of AIX, but I'm thinking 7.x, 
> maybe 8.x

7.2 TL0 is the latest. There is support for Power8 in 7.x. 

> The stuff I am playing with is 1.x, again, from a couple of decades ago, 
> on a hardware platform that IBM abandoned.  Nothing more is implied.  
> Nothing to read between the lines.

Gotcha, again, sorry for the misread.

> Unix is a very religious subject.  My last intent is to get on someone's 
> bad side here.

Tell me about it. I'm just lucky/glad to have avoided the VMS vs Unix wars 
in the 90's. Too much drama. :-)

-Swift

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej
> W. Rozycki
> Sent: 26 April 2016 21:02
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem
> 
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > >  One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM,
> > > for safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident
> > > easily
> > (BTW, I do
> > > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these
> > > experiments -- with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to
> > > load SRM from a floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too).  The
> > > symptoms should look like ones you've got, though of course plain
> > > poking at the wrong area would
> > look
> > > the same.
> >
> >
> > I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write
> > code running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical
> location.
> > This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying
> > to verify by using the console.
> 
>  Well, the symptoms appear consistent then (I thought in OpenVMS you got
> a freeze), so I suspect my guess about unmapping is right.
> 
> > This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the
> > same errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the
> > DROM would not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the
> > SROM wouldn't be able to load the DROM, presumably).
> 
>  Correct -- if you do get a machine check as early as accessing the index
> register, then it looks like the glue logic for flashbus doesn't respond
to a
> write cycle (there's no decoding enabled for the address requested) and
you
> get a bus timeout/abort.  Given that at this point you are only about to
select
> a particular device on flashbus it would equally happen for any, including
the
> LEDs.  Unless there is a timing requirement for the data register to see
an
> access soon enough after an index write or a bus error happens -- which I
> highly doubt given the crudeness of the logic (i.e. even the read/write
signal
> is explicit rather than decoded from the data register access bus cycle).
> 
> > >  You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory
> > > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the
> > > necessary
> > wiring
> > > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at
> > > 0x18b00 is 1).  These registers are listed in the same manual --
> > > with
> > a
> > > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual.  If
> > > not,
> > then
> > > you'd have to set them yourself.  There could be PALcode entry
> > > points to access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my
> > > Alpha-fu is not so deep as to know this offhand.
> >
> >
> > I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand
> > this, but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the
> > bank 8 base address register and I did get a value, but I didn't
> > undertand what it meant. Will do some reading.
> 
>  OK, just shout if you find yourself lost.
> 


I just got some very interesting results.

I examined the bank 8 configuration register contents using the console. It
contained 0x0136, which suggests the cache is not valid. The base address
register contained 0x4000.

So I booted VMS and modified my code to read the same locations.  Pleasingly
the code read back the same values. Which I hope means my code is correct.

I then went back to the console to check the bank 0 configuration register
which gave me 0x0069, which indicates it is valid. So there is a good chance
I am reading the right things.

This I think explains why I get the machine check. While in the console I
changed the bank 8 config register to 0x0137, and then I was able to read
and write to the address of the flashbus index register, but it didn't
change the LEDs when I wrote to the data register, and reading back the data
register gave me a value I didn't write. So there is still something not
right, perhaps the other values in the bank 8 config register, because I
don't know what they mean. However the base address seems correct as it's
value is 0x4000 (the raw value in the register), and this equates to
0x1.000. based on it being bits 19 upwards in the physical address
space.

I wonder if the SROM failing to read the DROM means that it does not set up
bank 8?

Regards

Rob

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:

> >  One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for
> > safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily
> (BTW, I do
> > recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments --
> > with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a
> > floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too).  The symptoms should look like
> > ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would
> look
> > the same.
> 
> 
> I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write code
> running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical location.
> This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying to
> verify by using the console.

 Well, the symptoms appear consistent then (I thought in OpenVMS you got a 
freeze), so I suspect my guess about unmapping is right.

> This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the same
> errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the DROM would
> not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the SROM wouldn't be
> able to load the DROM, presumably).

 Correct -- if you do get a machine check as early as accessing the index 
register, then it looks like the glue logic for flashbus doesn't respond 
to a write cycle (there's no decoding enabled for the address requested) 
and you get a bus timeout/abort.  Given that at this point you are only 
about to select a particular device on flashbus it would equally happen 
for any, including the LEDs.  Unless there is a timing requirement for the 
data register to see an access soon enough after an index write or a bus 
error happens -- which I highly doubt given the crudeness of the logic 
(i.e. even the read/write signal is explicit rather than decoded from the 
data register access bus cycle).

> >  You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory
> > controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary
> wiring
> > (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at
> > 0x18b00 is 1).  These registers are listed in the same manual -- with
> a
> > further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual.  If not,
> then
> > you'd have to set them yourself.  There could be PALcode entry points to
> > access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so
> > deep as to know this offhand.
> 
> 
> I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand this,
> but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the bank 8 base
> address register and I did get a value, but I didn't undertand what it
> meant. Will do some reading.

 OK, just shout if you find yourself lost.

  Maciej

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Jerry Kemp]

On 04/26/16 03:25 PM, Swift Griggs wrote:




A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware.
There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to
run A/UX on top of other hardware.


I've seen that project before.  The only issue is that you need a legal ROM
image and I don't have one.  If I had a machine to dump the ROM from, I'd
probably just use that, instead.  The project is still really neat, though.



All of this stuff, OS, ROM's, other misc code, is widely and easily available 
out there on the Interwebs.  I won't say any more or provide any specifics, as I 
like being on this list and don't want to get booted for sharing locations for 
unlicensed software.


Ultimately, it boils down to what your morals are, when using an abandoned 
product from a couple of decades ago for hobbyist and/or learning usage only.


I'm certain that anyone here who decided to write a new software product to run 
their business on, that ran on top of A/UX would immediately be sending some 
money Apple's way.







AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either.


Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork
on the attack.  AIX is one that I had heard some negativity about when I
first started learning it (I regularly learn new Unix variants just for
fun). Someone called it "Ain't Unix" (and for heaven's sake it wasn't me).
Now, I can see it's strengths and weaknesses.


Sorry for any misunderstanding here, you are reading something into this here 
that was never intended.


What I mean here, unlike the other products discussed in this thread, that were 
dropped/discontinued after a couple of releases decades ago, AIX wasn't.  I'm 
not up to date on the Current version of AIX, but I'm thinking 7.x, maybe 8.x


The stuff I am playing with is 1.x, again, from a couple of decades ago, on a 
hardware platform that IBM abandoned.  Nothing more is implied.  Nothing to read 
between the lines.


Unix is a very religious subject.  My last intent is to get on someone's bad 
side here.


Moving on, all of the AIX 1.x stuff is widely and easily available for easy 
download at various locations.


Jerry




I won't enumerate any since
folks will go ballistic, I'm sure.  I'll just say this, it's got some
decent attributes that might surprise people who hate it.  It still not my
favorite, but it grew on me.


AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware.  I am close to
having AIX 1.x running in Bochs::


Yes, I remember reading about AIX running on some special class of PS/2
machines.  I've seen photos of AIX floppy disks for that platform.  However,
I wonder if it goes out to check your BIOS or some microchannel jiggery
pokery to see if you have an "entitlement" to run it. If you find a way to
make it work and a source for the software, please let me know, too. Thanks!

-Swift

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote:


I am absolutely, completely, blown away. This has got to be one of the most
amazing projects I have ever come across. I'm utterly awed by the work you
did to reverse engineer this thing.

Everyone should check out this site - especially the detailed time-line


Thanks for the compliment - great to hear, that you like
the projects. It is/was not only great learning technically
but also getting in touch with intersting people during the
recent years. I visited the UK three times with a bias
towards meeting old hands from the dawn of airborne
computing which was really exciting.

I am also fascinated that some of the old architectures (like
the Elliott 900 which emerged in 1961) probably still serve
today after 50+ years (e.g. in Tornado's auto pilot or some early 
B747-100s). I do not think any iWHATEVER will last longer than

20 years ;-)  I think those exotic architectures/items are worth
beeing preserved and documented - especially as no one else is
taking care of them as e.g. is done for PDPs, Apples, HPs etc.

On the world there is probably only my 12 bit freely programmable
Elliott 900 still alive, I know of as little as 6 Rolms (privately
owned, all variants) and less than 5 of the inertial navigators.

BTW I still do not know whether the digital computer in the
inertial navigation system FIN-1010 is related to any civil
system made by Ferranti. I guess it is derived from the Pegasus
or Argus computers and therefore may be even more archaic. As
you see - the story will go on...

   The very best,

  Erik.

P.S. Tribute to inertial navigation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jerry Kemp wrote:
> > Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server
> > or Apple Workgroup Server?
> A/UX did not run on PPC hardware.  The AIX that ran on ANS boxes (Apple
> Network Servers) was a special deviant, and, among other issues, required
> Apple ROMs to boot.

I'm curious if there were the ROMs on a discrete board or embedded on the
mobo?  I didn't realize it was only for M68k systems.  I guess there won't
be any system that could run A/UX with AIX, then, since AIX from that era
will want a PPC CPU.

> I don't have any additional helpful hints as to getting this special
> version of AIX up and running, aside from hunting down and purchasing an
> ANS box.

I'd probably only do that if I could get one with the media.  A/UX sounds a
little more interesting to me anyhow at the moment.  I've had years of AIX
experience, nowadays.  I've never touched A/UX.

> If you figure out something new in regards to the ANS, or its specialized
> version of AIX, please share.

Will do. 

> A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware. 
> There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to
> run A/UX on top of other hardware.

I've seen that project before.  The only issue is that you need a legal ROM
image and I don't have one.  If I had a machine to dump the ROM from, I'd
probably just use that, instead.  The project is still really neat, though. 
The other issue is that the guy who wrote it got hired by a company who is
probably having him write emulation code (Stromsys ?) and so he can't
continue the project.  I've seen this happen before with people writing
Alpha emulators, too.  It's a shame for hobbyists, but understandable.  The
guy has to eat.

> AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either.

Hehe, careful, you don't want all the AIX fans coming out of the woodwork 
on the attack.  AIX is one that I had heard some negativity about when I 
first started learning it (I regularly learn new Unix variants just for 
fun). Someone called it "Ain't Unix" (and for heaven's sake it wasn't me). 
Now, I can see it's strengths and weaknesses.  I won't enumerate any since 
folks will go ballistic, I'm sure.  I'll just say this, it's got some 
decent attributes that might surprise people who hate it.  It still not my 
favorite, but it grew on me.
 
> AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware.  I am close to
> having AIX 1.x running in Bochs::

Yes, I remember reading about AIX running on some special class of PS/2
machines.  I've seen photos of AIX floppy disks for that platform.  However,
I wonder if it goes out to check your BIOS or some microchannel jiggery
pokery to see if you have an "entitlement" to run it. If you find a way to
make it work and a source for the software, please let me know, too. Thanks!

-Swift

Re: Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Jerry Kemp]

On 04/26/16 10:21 AM, Swift Griggs wrote:


Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server
or Apple Workgroup Server?


A/UX did not run on PPC hardware.  The AIX that ran on ANS boxes (Apple Network 
Servers) was a special deviant, and, among other issues, required Apple ROMs to 
boot.  ANS boxes were physically much closer to Apple hardware of the time vs 
IBM hardware.   I consider this to be a good article on the ANS box:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Network_Server

I don't have any additional helpful hints as to getting this special version of 
AIX up and running, aside from hunting down and purchasing an ANS box.


If you figure out something new in regards to the ANS, or its specialized 
version of AIX, please share.


However,

A/UX - another Apple Unix that (originally) only ran on specific hardware. 
There is now an emulation project called "ShoeBill" that will allow you to run 
A/UX on top of other hardware.


Hit up duckduckgo.com to search for specific details/FAQ's/etc.

download (Shoebill) code from here::

https://github.com/pruten/Shoebill/

And,

AIX - disclaimer - nothing modern going on here either.

AIX 1.x, among other CPU's, also ran on x86 hardware.  I am close to having AIX 
1.x running in Bochs::


http://bochs.sourceforge.net/

On top of Oracle Solaris on x86/x64.

enjoy,

Jerry



I had several hundred AIX machines running in a
server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only
done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't
belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL.

I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them.  I'm
guessing 4.x.  I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX,
AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD.

Here's a fun fact to know and tell. In addition to an SGI Irix screen
running the "fsn" tool in the movie Jurassic Park, there were several
screenshots of a workstation in that same room/scene running A/UX.

-Swift

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 26, 2016, at 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 04/26/2016 10:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit.
>> Yes, a hollow state integrated circuit.  I describe it that way
>> because it is a complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage
>> audio amplifier) rather than just something like a dual-triode tube
>> where the connecting components are still external.
> 
> Reminds me of the time I got my hands on a 1940s 3A8GT - battery
> pentode, triode, double diode in one envelope.  Not nearly as
> interesting as the one in in the Dutch model, though.
> 
> What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope?  I seem
> to recall that some of the European taxes were based on the number of
> tubes in a radio, so there was a strong impetus to integrate.

The artist who built that radio is Dutch; the tube is German (Loewe).  I know 
of two of these IC tubes: 2HF and 3NF, which stands for "2 stage high frequency 
amplifier" (i.e., RF amplifier) and "3 stage low frequency amplifier" (i.e., 
audio amplifier).  In each case, these are full circuits, including all the 
bias resistors and coupling elements, all enclosed within the vacuum envelope.  
You can see them in good pictures: the passive elements are long skinny tubes, 
enclosed in glass to protect the vacuum.

Yes, the reasoning supposedly was taxation.  
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/loewe.html has some more detail, including about 
some other designs along these lines: a Loewe dual pentode plus triode, and a 
GEC photocell plus amplifier.

This sort of stuff doesn't seem to be all that common; I haven't seen it 
elsewhere.  Multiple tubes, like dual triodes or triode/heptodes are pretty 
common, but those are just the active part.

paul

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 04/26/2016 10:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit.
> Yes, a hollow state integrated circuit.  I describe it that way
> because it is a complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage
> audio amplifier) rather than just something like a dual-triode tube
> where the connecting components are still external.

Reminds me of the time I got my hands on a 1940s 3A8GT - battery
pentode, triode, double diode in one envelope.  Not nearly as
interesting as the one in in the Dutch model, though.

What was the highest level of integration in a single envelope?  I seem
to recall that some of the European taxes were based on the number of
tubes in a radio, so there was a strong impetus to integrate.

--Chuck

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Erik Baigar

> I wanted to have a computer using core memory and so I bought a black
> box from the Tornado aircraft which contained core. This started a 10
> year yourney of analyzing it, decyphering the command set and building
> tools to program it. ... I have a project page on this:
>  http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/index.html

I am absolutely, completely, blown away. This has got to be one of the most
amazing projects I have ever come across. I'm utterly awed by the work you
did to reverse engineer this thing.

Everyone should check out this site - especially the detailed time-line

Noel

Re: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Raymond Wiker once stated:
> 
> > On 26 Apr 2016, at 05:39 , Swift Griggs  wrote:
> > 
> > It's probably a bad idea to dismiss anyone's experience when you haven't 
> > "walked a mile in his moccasins.", including mine.  Though my attempt may 
> > have been inarticulate, I was talking about my own experience in academia 
> > and not trying to pick a fight with every LISP coder on the planet. If I 
> > was more clever, I'd have probably had the foresight to say simply say 
> > $academic_only_language instead of using the pit-bull attack trigger word: 
> > LISP.
> 
> If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need
> to spend a little time with actually using it.

  AutoCAD uses LISP as a scripting language.  EMACS also has a LISP.  Paul
Graham (of Y-Combinator) also made his money on LISP (Viaweb, which later
became Yahoo Stores).  So yes, it's not an "academic only" language, but it
is different enough to make it difficult to find programmers.

  Because of the nature of LISP (LISP code is itself stored as a LISP
object) it becomes easy to algorithmetically manipulate LISP code that the
default method of implementation is to write a domain-specific language
(DSL) that solves the problem you want trivially, therefore if you use LISP,
you end up with something that may look like LISP but isn't (if that makes
sense).

  -spc (Who has a love/hate relationship with LISP---I love to hate it (no,
no, I kid!  I love the concept, but hate the language [1]))

[1] I have the same issues with Forth [2]

[2] Which is a backwards LISP.

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Tapley, Mark once stated:
> On Apr 25, 2016, at 4:46 PM, Brian L. Stuart  wrote:
> 
> > ...To tell you the truth, I'm not very likely to hire anyone who isn't
> > conversant with at least half a dozen different languages.  ...
> 
> Although I agree with almost everything Brian said in his post, I’ll posit
> at least one exception here. There exist languages (the Mathematica
> programming language is the one I’m familiar with) which permit
> programming in multiple different styles - procedural, list-processing,
> object-oriented, etc.. I would be pretty willing to consider a candidate
> who understood the differences, and could select the appropriate
> programming style for the task at hand, even if they were familiar with
> only the one “language”. But, it would not be trivial to demonstrate that
> the candidate actually had that breadth of understanding; production of
> sample code in a half-dozen languages would be an easier metric to apply,
> so maybe my exception is not useful.

  There are two major language families: declarative and imperative.  I feel
ike a programmer should be familiar with the two families.  Declarative
langauges are where you describe *what* you want and leave it up to the
computer (technically, the implementation) to figure out how to obtain what
you want.  A few langauges under this family:

Prolog
make (and yes, make is a declarative language)
SQL

Imperative is where you describe *how* to do something to the computer and
hope it gives you what you want.  Under this family there are three
sub-families:

  Procedural---your typical programming languages, C, Pascal, BASIC, COBOL,
Fortran, are all examples of procedural languages and we pretty much know
and understand these languages.

  Functional---still a type of imperative, but more centered around code
(functions actually) and side effects are very controlled (and globals right
out!).  Global variables are difficult to instantiate (if at all).  Examples
are Haskel, F#, ML, Hope.

  Object oriented---again, another form of imperative, but centered around
data instead of functions (it's the flip-side of functional).  Examples of
this are Smalltalk, Java, C#.

  There are languages that can have multiple features, like C++ (procedural
and object-oriented), Lisp (declarative and imperative), Forth (declarative
and imperative), Python (procedural, functional, object-oriented).

  -spc (Who likes classical software ... )
  

Re: High performance coprocessor boards of the 80s and 90s - was Re: SGI ONYX

[Guy Dawson]

I bought a 32016 Cambridge Coprocessor back in the day. It's in my loft.

On 25 April 2016 at 23:49, Jules Richardson 
wrote:

> On 04/25/2016 10:02 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> I meant to develop this point slightly, and did in a blog post, here:
>>
>> http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/48593.html
>>
>> But in the meantime, it kept the 6502-based, resolutely-8-bit BBC
>> Micro line alive with updates and new models, including ROM-based
>> terminals and machines with a range of built-in coprocessors: faster
>> 6502-family chips for power users, Z80s for CP/M, Intel's 80186 for
>> kinda-sorta PC compatibility, the NatSemi 32016 with PANOS for
>> ill-defined scientific computing, and finally, an ARM copro before the
>> new ARM-based machines were ready.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if a user could go out and buy a 32016 copro, though. The
> only ones I've ever been aware of have come from educational institutions
> and I get the impression they were employed more for testing the market
> than anything.
>
> What I dismissed as one of the ROM-based terminals was the Acorn
>> Communicator, a single-box machine (i.e. main board in the keyboard,
>> like an Amiga 500 or original 520 ST.)
>>
>
> I had a couple of those, and I know one went to a museum, but I'm not
> entirely sure what I did with the other! I may still have it.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>


-- 
4.4 > 5.4

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

Hi Jim,

after another test using a different PC and paper tape,
the paper tape reader is en route to you. I declared it as
"paper tape reader for hobby use, value USD10" and that it
will "return within 4 weeks". Hopefully this will prevent
you from having to get into toruble with the custom office...

   Best regards,

  Erik.

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote:



Hi Sherman!

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote:

under the heading of d??j?? vu, if this unit is a Rockwell Collins mil hand 
paper tape puller, my old roommate ran the qualification tests on


Hm, the reader is a Vaisala SPT11A and I searched the internet
for readers from Rockwell Collins. The images appearing, are not
related to the Vaisala box, so I think they are different devices...

Harbor & Warner facility.  They drove around the parking lot in the bed of 
pickup trucks pulling tape and loading systems w/ potholes & speedbumps in 
the way.


So some mil-spec testing using equipment readily available. Apart from
Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics and I
know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for
aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh
in Scotland...

   Best regards,

  Erik.

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote:



problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD
butler.  It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes.  :-)


And I'd be interested in whether she had some help in
maintaining all this outstanding equipment ;-) For one
perrson alone this is really incredible!

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

Erik is not the only one.  Check out Tatiana van Vark.  Here's a picture of 
what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics suite from a Vulcan 
bomber!


Yes, Tatiana is the queen of collecting this kind of
stuff and she has an excellent page!

There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit and 
moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it.


Well, I have a similar video of my "baby" which is somewhat
newer - look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8
beginning minute 5:00. The LN-3 you can see in Tatiana's video
is from the 1960ties (F4, F104 and many others) and all computation
is done mechanically using gears and ball resolvers for Sinus/Cosinus.

In the FIN-1010 shown in my video being from the 1970ties, some
calculation (e.g. integration of rate to orientation) is still done
mechanically within the gyroscopes, platform alignment and maintaining
the position of the platform as well as flipping the gimbals is
accomplished by an analog computer (OpAmps and so on). Last but
not least a bitserial digital computer is supervising the analog
computer and changing its "program flow". Additionally the digital
machine contains routines for calibration of gyro drift etc. The
digital computer also solves the navigation equations of direction
and distance to goal.

So the fascinating thing is the combination of different technologies
and the outstanding precision needed and achieved by the mechanical
instruments.

Altough the digital machine consists of only ~200 TTL chips, it is a
32 bit machine and delivers 33 navigation oututs per second. BTW:
This enabled the Tornado aircraft to fly autonomously 200 ft
above ground at supersonic speeds passing certain preprogrammed
waypoints...

  Erik.

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Tapley, Mark]

On Apr 25, 2016, at 4:46 PM, Brian L. Stuart  wrote:

> ...To tell you the truth, I'm not very
> likely to hire anyone who isn't conversant with at least half a
> dozen different languages.  ...

Although I agree with almost everything Brian said in his post, I’ll posit at 
least one exception here. There exist languages (the Mathematica programming 
language is the one I’m familiar with) which permit programming in multiple 
different styles - procedural, list-processing, object-oriented, etc.. I would 
be pretty willing to consider a candidate who understood the differences, and 
could select the appropriate programming style for the task at hand, even if 
they were familiar with only the one “language”. But, it would not be trivial 
to demonstrate that the candidate actually had that breadth of understanding; 
production of sample code in a half-dozen languages would be an easier metric 
to apply, so maybe my exception is not useful. 
- Mark

SATA SSDs for SGIs using ACARD adapters

[Swift Griggs]

I use Samsung 850 Pro disks exclusively.  The main one I tested with was
128GB.

80-pin SCA hot swap Ultra160 SCSI to SATA:
This one I've tested in my O2 and Tezro:
http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=240_no=ARS-2160H_idno=6=43

50-pin ultra-scsi to SATA:
This one I've tested in two Indys (R4600 200Mhz and R5k 180Mhz) also a
Challenge S with an R4600 200Mhz CPU):
http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=249_no=ARS-2000SUP_idno=6=43

There is also a 68-pin variant. I've yet to try one because I will 
probably get rid of most of my Sun gear at some point in the future. 
However, I'd be interested to know if they work well or not. I still play 
with older SPARC boxes from time to time.

I've upgraded many of my SGI's to use SSD disks.  You don't see tremendous
improvements in throughput (though it does help some).  My results testing
with 'fio' showed about 10% throughput increase on most operations overall. 
However, the latency becomes much lower.  This gives the machine a much more
snappy feel if you use them as desktops.  Web browsing is especially
ameliorated (as in, you can almost do it, har har).  On my Tezro the
results were pretty dramatic.  The quad R16k CPUs still keep up pretty well
with my "modern" PCs for most operations (including browsing).  Using
internal SSDs makes the anecdotal experience tangibly improved.

I'm curious if anyone has used one of the 50-pin units to upgrade an Amiga 
3000 or older mac.  I'm thinking of other machines like one of the slimmer 
and more interesting AlphaStations might also be fun to try (or a newer 
Multia with the SCSI adapter). Did Atari ST's have SCSI? Without looking 
it up, I'm guessing so. That'd be another fun one to test.

Also before someone pipes up saying "The older SCSI interface is going to 
limit you too much to feel the difference" let me just say that's NOT been 
my experience.  As I mentioned, you might not get much throughput increase 
(though it will usually improve some), but the numbers don't lie on the 
latency which drops outta sight into the sub-1ms range most of the time.  
You feel that on desktops, bigtime.  Also, if you say "that's not stock!  
It's not original anymore!" Please let me just respond now and also say 
"Yes, I know that, thank you."

Thanks,
  Swift

Re: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Seth Morabito]

* On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 08:08:37AM -0600, Swift Griggs 
 wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote:
> > If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need
> > to spend a little time with actually using it.
> 
> Thanks for making my point for me. 

That seems like a "begging the question" logical fallacy, to me.

  * Your assertion is that anyone who likes Lisp must be a zealot.
  * Someone else asserts that it is not the case.
  * You use that assertion to prove your point.

FWIW, I'm not a Lisp programmer, though I've dabbled a very, very
little with Scheme, Common Lisp, and Clojure. They're interesting, and
I've seen very complex systems built with them. I believe they are
suitable for vigorous real-world use.

I will fully confess that the Lisp community has been off-putting in
some ways, and I *have* seen Lisp zealotry (the "smug lisp weenie"
epithet comes to mind). But that does not mean that the language
itself should be totally dismissed, it just means the community has
ugly warts.

> -Swift

-Seth
-- 
Seth Morabito
s...@loomcom.com

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:


On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote:

Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics
and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for
aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in
Scotland...


That is an interesting hobby. How did you get into that and how do you
actually test/use the stuff you tinker with?


Hi Swift, I got into this hobby via the computer side - everything started
as I wanted to have a computer using core memory and so I bought a black
box from the Tornado aircraft which contained core. This started a
10 year yourney of analyzing it, decyphering the command set and building
tools to program it. Only years later I got the information, that
the box is a 12 bit version of the famous Elliott 900 family which
was "popular" in the UK in the 1960ties. I have a project page on this:

http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/index.html


Are you a pilot?


No, I am just keeping this stuff with two goals: (1) Keeping it
in working order to preserve some strange unknown technology and
(2) learn how the guys of the 1970tis squeezed out amazing things
of this technology.


more interesting facets of the avionics gear you collect?


Well in my opinion the inertial navigation systems are the most
complex and advanced pieces of equipment available: They combine
outstanding mechanics and mechanical, analog-electronic and
digital computing...

Apart from this I am fascinated from graphics generators which
(e.g. for the head up displays of the 1970ties) achieved vector
graphics update rates of 50Hz an more (circles and lines) in
512x512 pixel resolution without having memory to store a single
frame.

I have a logbook on my activities, but of course I should do more
for "marketing" all this stuff...

http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/TimeLine.html#HDDsim

Erik.

Re: Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 26, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> ...
> Just about everything on that page is drool-worthy or cool in some extreme
> way.  That crytograph does indeed rock and "The Inertial Navigator Platform"
> looks like an artifact from The 5th Element.  What's more incredible about
> that machine is she didn't rescue it...  she *made* it, along with almost
> all that other stuff.  Outrageous!

I like http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvvd/viewer223.html .  I have that tube and 
bits of a radio (original) that uses it.

That tube is interesting: it's the world's first integrated circuit.  Yes, a 
hollow state integrated circuit.  I describe it that way because it is a 
complete subsystem (in this case, a complete 3 stage audio amplifier) rather 
than just something like a dual-triode tube where the connecting components are 
still external.

paul

Avionics and amazing gear made by Tatjana (was Re: Data General Nova Star Trek Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> From the looks of other items on her website, that collection of airplane
> gear is the *least* strange thing she has.

Holy smokes I just checked and you are right! 

>  Stuff like an encryption machine that isn't exactly an Enigma, but based
> on the same principles -- and much nicer looking.

Just about everything on that page is drool-worthy or cool in some extreme
way.  That crytograph does indeed rock and "The Inertial Navigator Platform"
looks like an artifact from The 5th Element.  What's more incredible about
that machine is she didn't rescue it...  she *made* it, along with almost
all that other stuff.  Outrageous!

> You can find more here: http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/projects.html and here:
> http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/vanvark.htm

Heh, there goes my afternoon 

-Swift

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 26, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote:
>> Erik is not the only one.  Check out Tatiana van Vark.
> 
> Excellent!  I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like
> this.  Now I know.  Like I said, what a cool hobby.
> 
>> Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics
>> suite from a Vulcan bomber!
> 
> That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.  I can identify perhaps
> *one* of those devices.  I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar. 
> That's it!  Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break
> down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup.
> 
>> There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit
>> and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it.
> 
> As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ?  Damn son.  That's what you
> call a passion for your hobby.  Hopefully, being female she has less
> problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD
> butler.  It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes.  :-)

From the looks of other items on her website, that collection of airplane gear 
is the *least* strange thing she has.  Stuff like an encryption machine that 
isn't exactly an Enigma, but based on the same principles -- and much nicer 
looking. 

You can find more here: http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/projects.html and here: 
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/vanvark.htm

paul

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote:
> Erik is not the only one.  Check out Tatiana van Vark.

Excellent!  I've actually wondered who in the world might do something like
this.  Now I know.  Like I said, what a cool hobby.

> Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete electronics
> suite from a Vulcan bomber!

That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.  I can identify perhaps
*one* of those devices.  I'm guessing the little round CRT is for radar. 
That's it!  Somewhere, someday, some flight sim zealot is going to break
down in tears of joy and jealousy when they see that setup.

> There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial measuring unit
> and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear to support it.

As in 3 EIA/TIA racks fulla computer kit ?  Damn son.  That's what you
call a passion for your hobby.  Hopefully, being female she has less
problems with her SO freaking out, but who knows, perhaps she married an OCD
butler.  It's tough to escape the laws of the universe sometimes.  :-)

-Swift

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Jon Elson]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote:

Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics
and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for
aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in
Scotland...


Erik is not the only one.  Check out Tatiana van Vark.  
Here's a picture of what is in her DINING ROOM, the complete 
electronics suite from a Vulcan bomber!




There's also a video of her picking up a Litton inertial 
measuring unit and moving it around, there's 3 racks of gear 
to support it.


Jon

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Erik Baigar wrote:
> Apart from Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics
> and I know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for
> aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh in
> Scotland...

That is an interesting hobby. How did you get into that and how do you
actually test/use the stuff you tinker with? Are you a pilot? What are some
more interesting facets of the avionics gear you collect?

Thanks,
  Swift

Mac "Workgroup Server" (or "network server") hardware & AIX

[Swift Griggs]

Has anyone ever seen either A/UX or AIX running on an Apple Network Server
or Apple Workgroup Server? I had several hundred AIX machines running in a
server farm for a while, but even the oldest was POWER4 based, and I've only
done a bit of legacy support for PPC60x-based RS/6000 systems. I don't
belive I've ever seen an ANS or AWS IRL. 

I'm curious what the last version of AIX that will run on them.  I'm
guessing 4.x.  I'm also curious if there is one machine that can run A/UX,
AIX, MacOS, and NetBSD. 

Here's a fun fact to know and tell. In addition to an SGI Irix screen
running the "fsn" tool in the movie Jurassic Park, there were several
screenshots of a workstation in that same room/scene running A/UX. 

-Swift

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek (Rockwell Collins vs. Vaisala SPT11A)

[Erik Baigar]

Hi Sherman!

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote:

under the heading of d??j?? vu, if this unit is a Rockwell Collins mil 
hand paper tape puller, my old roommate ran the qualification tests on


Hm, the reader is a Vaisala SPT11A and I searched the internet
for readers from Rockwell Collins. The images appearing, are not
related to the Vaisala box, so I think they are different devices...

Harbor & Warner facility.  They drove around the parking lot in the bed 
of pickup trucks pulling tape and loading systems w/ potholes & 
speedbumps in the way.


So some mil-spec testing using equipment readily available. Apart from
Rolm mil-spec computers, my hobby is airborne vintage avionics and I
know that Ferranti tested their intertial navigations systems for
aircraft also by torturing them in a car driving around Edinburgh
in Scotland...

Best regards,

   Erik.

Re: Fast Unibus Sync Serial?

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 26, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Mattis Lind  wrote:
> 
> 2016-04-26 3:45 GMT+02:00 Ken Seefried :
> 
>> Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus?  Or other quick Unibus
>> sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find?  The DMC11
>> looks like it can do 56Kbps over V.35, which is better than the
>> 19.2kbps on the DMF32, but it would be useful to be able to push to
>> 256Kbps (or faster).  I'm particularly interested in doing HDLC.
>> 
> 
> DMP11?
> 
> Seems to be able to do 500 kbit/s full duplex and 1 Mbit/s half duplex. It
> consists of two cards M8203 and M8207. I have a few that I cannot find any
> use for...

DMP11 does DDCMP.  If you want HDLC, options are more limited.  The obvious 
question is "why HDLC?"

HDLC is ok so far as it goes, but DDCMP is superior in every respect.  The only 
reason to use HDLC is that you need to talk something that can't be made to 
speak DDCMP.

paul

Re: Real OS (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Paul Koning]

> On Apr 25, 2016, at 5:14 PM, ben  wrote:
> 
> But for the most part Common Folk did not have the resources
> I suspect for REAL programing languages, because those require
> a REAL OS to run with, and after the 8086 the Newer chips became
> too complex to use, and the 68000 was only 16 bit addressing.
> Then Windows came out and NON-DIS-CLOSER become the norm.

I'm not sure what a "real OS" is, nor why it is required to run a "real 
programming language" (whatever that is).

Is FORTH a real language?  You can run FORTH on pretty much anything, and 
porting it to a new architecture may take only a few days.  On complex machines 
(like 64 bit MIPS) it might take a little longer.  If you want to replace the 
boot ROM as well, then things get complex, because you may have to do stuff 
like initialize the memory controller.  But all that sort of thing is still 
done routinely.

Also, you can find any number of lightweight OS for lots of machines, 
environments where even languages like C++ are readily available.  Or you can 
write your own, as the team I work with has done; if you have specific and 
well-bounded requirements that's not a big deal.

paul

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Liam Proven]

On 25 April 2016 at 19:00, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> Hm.  Are you sure your personal interest in the topic hasn't pushed you
> to be a little sensitive about it ?


Yes.

Because I was a support guy, and now am a writer, not a programmer. I
have been researching programming languages and operating systems for
decades now.

The #1 problem of the IT industry is not any language, not processor
design, not software or OS design.

It's culture.

Computers are built by people, and software for them is written by
people. And as people, we live in cultures. Some things are cool, or
desirable, or trendy. Some things give quick results, or are fun, or
are inherently fast but risky and unstable.

Others are hard, or are from the wrong college or company or country,
or need too much up-front effort, or are slower but safe.

And consistently, for decades, technically-illiterate managers have
chosen to spend money on things that are cheap but quick, that give
quick and dirty fixes.

As a result, what we have today are the descendants, not of the best
computers we have developed, but of the quickest-and-dirtiest lash-ups
that could be made to work long enough to get through a sales demo.

As a result, there's been a mass-extinction event of actual good code
written by smart people who defy convention. Instead, we have a very
small number of architectures and OSes, and layered on top of these
unsound foundations are a profusion of tools which try to piecemeal
fix the problems of the layers underneath -- and inevitably failing.

But that's what we use, and so people choose sides and mock the other
side. Unix people mock Windows people, and vice versa. Perl people
dislike Python, Python folk don't see the need for Ruby. C types look
down on all of them and desperately play down the stories of buffer
overflows and stack smashing.

And the industry is now huge, much comprised of people trying to fix
the screw-ups of others in other places. Massive amounts of code and
resources are devoted to keeping unstable stacks of unstable code in
unstable languages more or less standing and running, at least in
aggregate.

Swift, you have provided a superb example of this mockery. And now
you've been called on it, you are, in natural human fashion, lashing
out in return.

It's natural, it's human, and it's exactly why we have the stinking
pile of crap that we do today instead of tools that actually work.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Fast Unibus Sync Serial?

[Mattis Lind]

2016-04-26 3:45 GMT+02:00 Ken Seefried :

> Is there an equivalent to the DSV11 for Unibus?  Or other quick Unibus
> sync serial that my Google-fu isn't good enough to find?  The DMC11
> looks like it can do 56Kbps over V.35, which is better than the
> 19.2kbps on the DMF32, but it would be useful to be able to push to
> 256Kbps (or faster).  I'm particularly interested in doing HDLC.
>

DMP11?

Seems to be able to do 500 kbit/s full duplex and 1 Mbit/s half duplex. It
consists of two cards M8203 and M8207. I have a few that I cannot find any
use for...

/Mattis


>
> KJ
>

Re: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Raymond Wiker wrote:
> If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need
> to spend a little time with actually using it.

Thanks for making my point for me. 

-Swift

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[geneb]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Jon Elson wrote:


On 04/25/2016 12:42 PM, geneb wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:


On 04/25/2016 09:39 AM, Jon Elson wrote:


I used it to port a couple of my programs from (Ughhh!) Borland
Turbo Pascal for Windows to Linux, and it was a surprisingly painless
job. The only thing I notice is the error messages look exactly like
Borland error messages on DOS.  (Error 132 at 1B7F sort of thing.)


Historically, one of my pet peeves with compiler writers.  IBM 704
FORTRAN had better and clearer diagnostics than many of today's compilers.

Well keep in mind that given that error, you could stick that address into 
the "Find Error Location" of the IDE and it would drop you right on the 
line of code that triggered the error.



Yes, does that work with FPC on Linux?

It's possible.  FPC uses GDB for the debugger - you'd have to check to see 
if the text mode IDE has the error location feature that the Turbo Pascal 
IDE had.  I'm not sure about Lazarus as I don't use it often.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
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A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

RE: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Paul Birkel]

Thanks Erik; very helpful.  For reference, mine also shares the same
firmware revision.  Can you share your source code as well?

-Original Message-
From: Erik Baigar [mailto:e...@baigar.de] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2016 5:33 AM
To: Paul Birkel
Cc: jwsm...@jwsss.com; cctalk@classiccmp.org; sherman...@att.net
Subject: Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek)


Dear Paul,

thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and did
quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the original
firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from the reader. So
the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the reason I needed to
address this issue. For your (and the communities) convenience I placed the
original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)...

http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin

...and my new one (also 27C256)...

http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex

...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via the
serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial communication
on starting and during this time the red LED is on.
On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows the state
of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED flashes. At 9600 the
serial port is always faster than you can pull the tape through the reader,
so I do not expect the red LED (indicate a buffer overflow, byte lost) come
on during normal operation...

The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports:
5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader (not used in my
firmware, but original expects some start/config command here) additionally
7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V).

Hope this helps,

   best regards,

  Erik.


On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:

> Eric;
>
> Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other 
> information that you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader?  
> I recently acquired one of these as well but haven't yet started on 
> reverse-engineering it into something useful  Would prefer to leverage 
> your experience, if you please :->.
>
> Good health to You and Yours!
>
> paul
> (from Maryland, USA)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik 
> Baigar
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM
> To: jim s; cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Cc: Sherman Foy
> Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the 
> weekend to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay 
> auction and it was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby 
> to read in some codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to 
> communicate with a simple terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered 
> the hardware and replaced the original ROM it by an own firmware which 
> simply sends the contents read from PPT to the PC via its RS232C...
>
>http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg
>
> So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your 
> tapes and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it 
> works well (just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use 
> e.g. putty to log the binary serial output). After turning on the 
> reader there is a short welcome message to verify the serial connection
(9600,8N1).
>
> The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply 
> shown in the picture...
>
>http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg
>
> I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd 
> attach one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also 
> supplying the converter with power from the PC.
> Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can 
> prepare for shipping...
>
>Best regards from Germany,
>
>   Erik.
>
> -
>

Re: Data General Nova Star Trek

[Erik Baigar]

Hi Jim, Dear Sherman,

thanks for your email (and the address via PM). I will prepare the
reader for shipping tomorrow. I will ship it with the power supply
and the adapter-cable attached, so you can plug it directly into
the PC. The supply is wide-range, so it will support 115VAC
directly, but you will need some "means" to connect mains to
it. I am sure, you will be able to handle this  ;-)

Looking forward to hear on the results (an getting back the reader
after you completed your job) and wish good luck in reading
the tapes...

   Best regards,

  Erik.



On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Sherman Foy wrote:


have discussed w/ Jim: I have a 240 Euro connector bench transformer meant for 
this.

Vaisala SPT11A reader (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

Dear Paul,

thanks for your email - I acquired the reader several years ago and
did quite a lot of experiments to figure out how to use it with the
original firmware SPTS11, 2.02, 5289 but I never got an answer from
the reader. So the project of Jim to read in the DG tapes was the
reason I needed to address this issue. For your (and the communities)
convenience I placed the original firmware (27C256 type EPROM)...

   http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-2.02-5289.bin

...and my new one (also 27C256)...

   http://www.baigar.de/electronics/PTR-SPTS11-EB1.01.hex

...onto my server. My new firmware just sends out the data read via
the serial port at 9600, 8N1. A welcome messages tests the serial
communication on starting and during this time the red LED is on.
On getting ready the green LED takes over and the yellow one shows
the state of the sprocket input: For each byte read this LED
flashes. At 9600 the serial port is always faster than you can
pull the tape through the reader, so I do not expect the red
LED (indicate a buffer overflow, byte lost) come on during normal
operation...

The pinout of the Sub-D9 male plug is as usual on serial ports:
5: GND, 2: Data from reader to PC, 3: Data from PC to reader
(not used in my firmware, but original expects some start/config
command here) additionally 7: DC input to reader (in my case 9V).

   Hope this helps,

  best regards,

 Erik.


On Tue, 26 Apr 2016, Paul Birkel wrote:


Eric;

Would you please share your firmware updates, and any other information that
you've gleaned regarding the Vaisala SPT11A reader?  I recently acquired one
of these as well but haven't yet started on reverse-engineering it into
something useful  Would prefer to leverage your experience, if you please
:->.

Good health to You and Yours!

paul
(from Maryland, USA)

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik Baigar
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 11:42 AM
To: jim s; cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: Sherman Foy
Subject: Re: Data General Nova Star Trek


Hi Jim,

regarding reading the StarTrek paper tapes I spent some time on the weekend
to rework my SPT11A manual reader - I got this from an eBay auction and it
was an accessory for some military receiver (probalby to read in some
codes). It had a fimrwaere which refused to communicate with a simple
terminal program, so I reverse en- gineered the hardware and replaced the
original ROM it by an own firmware which simply sends the contents read from
PPT to the PC via its RS232C...

   http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod-Internal.jpg

So I'd offer sending this to you as an item on loan to read in your tapes
and you return it afterwards? I tested it with some data and it works well
(just slowly pull the paper tape through the reader and use e.g. putty to
log the binary serial output). After turning on the reader there is a short
welcome message to verify the serial connection (9600,8N1).

The only question is, whether you can handle the EU style power supply shown
in the picture...

   http://www.baigar.de/vintage/SPT11A-mod.jpg

I ordered USB->RS232C converters and if you have some more time, I'd attach
one of them to the reader not only doing conversion but also supplying the
converter with power from the PC.
Addidionally you should send me your physical address via PM so I can
prepare for shipping...

   Best regards from Germany,

  Erik.

-

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W.
> Rozycki
> Sent: 26 April 2016 00:42
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 
> Subject: RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem
> 
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > To help me work out why my program isn't working I went back to the
> > console command to try to write to the flashbus index register, I used
> > the following
> > command:
> >
> >  deposit -l pmem:1 9400
> >
> > This should set up the flashbus register to write to the LEDs. Instead
> > I got a machine check and an "Illegal target address".
> 
>  Hmm, I wonder if:
> 
> >>>d -l -physical 1 9400
> 
> would make a difference.  I guess not, but probably worth checking.


I suspect not, but will give it a go.

> 
> > Am I misunderstanding the technical manual? Are those addresses it
> > gives for the flashbus registers physical addresses?
> 
>  I'm sure they're physical (see Chapter 3 too).
> 
>  One possibility is SRM unmaps them when it takes over from SROM, for
> safety maybe -- so as not to let one corrupt flash by accident easily
(BTW, I do
> recommend write-protecting flash with its jumper for these experiments --
> with DROM not working correctly and hence no way to load SRM from a
> floppy you'd be doomed if flash broke too).  The symptoms should look like
> ones you've got, though of course plain poking at the wrong area would
look
> the same.


I will check for unmapping, but I get a machine check when I write code
running in OpenVMS that attempts to write to the same physical location.
This assumes my code is correct of course, which is what I was trying to
verify by using the console.

This makes me wonder if the problem is that the DROM is getting the same
errors. But I am not sure if that can be true because then the DROM would
not be able to write to the diagnostic LEDs either (and the SROM wouldn't be
able to load the DROM, presumably).


> 
>  You could check if flashbus is mapped by peeking at bank 8 memory
> controller registers and seeing if the contents provide the necessary
wiring
> (in particular if bit #0 aka `s8_Valid' in the 16-bit word at
> 0x18b00 is 1).  These registers are listed in the same manual -- with
a
> further reference to the (rather fat) memory controller manual.  If not,
then
> you'd have to set them yourself.  There could be PALcode entry points to
> access flashbus too I suppose, although regrettably my Alpha-fu is not so
> deep as to know this offhand.


I need to understand more about the Alpha architecture to understand this,
but I will check. All I can say is that I did try to read the bank 8 base
address register and I did get a value, but I didn't undertand what it
meant. Will do some reading.


> 
>  NB all the address space from 0x1 through to 0x1 is
> uncacheable it would seem, so no need to be concerned about this part.
> 


Thanks

Rob

Re: Vintage computer ads...

[COURYHOUSE]

very bogus with  the  hp 150 business  system and they guy  claims the 9121 
dual floppies was a hard  drive
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 
 
In a message dated 4/20/2016 7:47:24 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
oltma...@gmail.com writes:

On Wed,  Apr 20, 2016 at 9:37 AM, geneb  wrote:

>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T1IYdjOpYE
>
> The video is an  hour long, but you can skip around.  It includes ads for
> machines  like the ITT Xtra, IBM PC Jr, etc.  The Hayes Smartmodem ad is
>  just atrocious. :)  There's even ads for IOMega drives and the  Promethus
> Pro Modem...
>
>
Is that Bryan Cranston a la  Breaking Bad in that video??? Sure looks  like
him.

Re: The Ivory Tower saga was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Raymond Wiker]

> On 26 Apr 2016, at 05:39 , Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> It's probably a bad idea to dismiss anyone's experience when you haven't 
> "walked a mile in his moccasins.", including mine.  Though my attempt may 
> have been inarticulate, I was talking about my own experience in academia 
> and not trying to pick a fight with every LISP coder on the planet. If I 
> was more clever, I'd have probably had the foresight to say simply say 
> $academic_only_language instead of using the pit-bull attack trigger word: 
> LISP.

If you think that Lisp is an "academic only language", you probably need to 
spend a little time with actually using it.